Talk:Albie Sinclair

Nicknames

Do we have a ruling for how nicknames should be integrated into the first line of the introduction? This page now has the first option, but previously had the second:

1. Albert Sinclair, also known as "Albie" for short
2. Albert "Albie" Sinclair

The prevailing format across the wiki seems to be #2 (see Ben Jackson, Liz Shaw, Jo Grant, Harry Sullivan, Peri Brown, Flip Jackson, Melanie Bush, Hex, Will Arrowsmith, Charlotte Pollard, Toshiko Sato, Amy Pond, Yasmin Khan, etc.), but T:CHAR NAMES indicates that #1 (see Mels Zucker, Charles Griffiths or Pete Tyler, all of which were changed relatively recently from #2 by Epsilon) is the ideal way.

Epsilon's edit summary for changing it on Charles Griffiths' page said that it was because "Charlie isn't a nickname, it's just a shorthand of Charles" and, on this page, that it should be #1 because Albie is a hypocorism and not a nickname. However, the above examples show that we don't make any distinction between the two.

To go on a tangent, if we look up the definition of a hypocorism, we get:

• Collins Dictionary - "a pet name, esp one using a diminutive affix"
  • Definition of pet name: "A pet name is a special name that you use for a close friend or a member of your family instead of using their real name. Synonyms: nickname, term of endearment, affectionate name"
  • Definition of nickname: "A nickname is an informal name for someone or something"
• Merriam-Webster - "a pet name"
  • Definition of pet name: "a name that a person uses for someone to show love or affection"
  • Definition of nickname: "a familiar form of a proper name (as of a person or a city)"

Let's consider better known examples than Albie. With Elizabeth Shaw, "Liz" isn't just a pet name (i.e. not a "special name" or one used "to show love or affection") because it's the name she uses to introduce herself to people and uses even in a professional context. Jo and Amy similarly introduce themselves as "Jo Grant" and "Amy Pond". It wouldn't be accurate, I don't think, to [edit: say "Amelia Pond, known as Amy for brevity" when she isn't known by that name just to save time.]

Even if we ignore all this, #2 is clearly the more widespread. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to changing it, but as far as I can see, this is the way that we include such names here and, short of a discussion about it when we get the forums back and unless there's been a discussion that I'm unaware of and hasn't been implemented, the introduction to this page should return to reading Albert "Albie" Sinclair. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 15:37, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

If there is a policy about something that tells us to do something explicitly in a certain way, especially when it makes sense, we should follow it instead of going around and using hypocoristics as nicknames. They're just not, and even if on a bunch of pages they're treated as such... that's an error! I don't think it'd be proper if we started using WC as a prefix for The Night of the Doctor and when someone points out that it's not a webcast and there is even a policy to support this argument, for the opposing party to got "well a bunch of pages use it so we should continue to do so". That's what T:BOUND forbades. So, in light of T:CHAR NAMES and T:BOUND, all the pages should be switched to option #2. If you feel that T:CHAR NAMES is wrong and should be changed, feel free to open a Forum discussion.

Also, when I mentioned hypocoristic names, I was just referring to Albie; diminutives cover things like Liz, Jo, and Amy, and diminutives are related hypocoristics.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

16:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Now, I think it would be good if T:CHAR NAMES is slightly rewritten to talk about diminutives and hypocoristics, and perhaps give other examples of how character names in leads could be written: so, "Elizabeth Haggard, who indentified herself commonly as Liz (née Shaw)" or something, that could be beneficial.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

16:09, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Like I've said, I'm not necessarily opposed to that, although that example does seem a bit unwieldy. I used that same format on a wiki I created and have long since lost interest in. But if a practice is widespread and unchallenged by the admins, surely that indicates that the policy page is out of date. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 16:20, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Not quite: for that to work, it needs to be the whole community doing something widespread and in agreement of. But that's not quite the case, considering this talk page.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

16:22, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I'll change it on the bigger pages and see what happens. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 16:24, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

(To be honest though, I wish it were easier to change policy in the absence of the Forums.)

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

16:36, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I seem to be missing some context for this discussion. Why is it "an error", given Jack's multiple dictionary quotes showing that hypocoristics and diminutive are nicknames? Albert "Albie" Sinclair is briefer, it gets the same information across, it's what's often used by Wikipedia… not seeing the problem here. Could someone fill me in? – n8 (☎) 17:07, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Okay, perhaps I spoke too rashly about it being an error per se. But to address your other points, I believe they can be nicknames but aren't necessarily, though I this is now more of my opinion than hard fact, thus I don't have grounds to object to a policy change in that regard... Oh, and also, T:EVIL TWIN regarding Wikipedia's page for Amy Pond.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

17:34, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps a more elegant solution would to just be to use a character's most common name in the lead (i.e., the page name) and have a #Name section for things like married names, legal names, etc?

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

17:46, 6 December 2022 (UTC)