Talk:The Massacre (TV story)

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room between outer and inner tardis doors

Hello, I read two apparently unrelated sources from persons who saw the original broadcast:

Both state that during the scene at the end when Steven leaves the Doctor, there was a shot showing the inside of the police box right after the inner doors and pushing the outer doors from the inside.

The two accounts I've read are here: http://tardisbuilders.com/index.php?topic=4757.0 (EDIT: see replies #6 and #8)

<removed per Tardis:Video policy> (EDIT: copy-pasting the relevant comment: "I remember this episode on its original broadcast. It is the first time, when the Doctor opens the larger double inner TARDIS doors for Steven to leave, we see the smaller closed double outer police box doors, which Steven opens by pushing a bar, a bar similar to one you see on a fire door. Very unusual. Rather like the doors we see from the inside of the TARDIS today. When companions Ian Chesterton & Barbara Wright left, the series was never the same.")

Personally, that would be credible enough (considering the vestibule glimpsed in Claws of Axos and knowing the behind the scenes constructions plans of the pilot tardis as published by Radio Times) But I want to know if there is something more official about it (source book, In Vision, ...) before putting it in an article.RingoRoadagain ☎ 22:07, December 12, 2017 (UTC)

The only sources for the in-universe section of articles is the stories themselves. As for behind the scenes, I think your first source, as a message board, wouldn't be considered a valid source, and your second source is a video, which we cannot link to per Tardis:Video policy. In my opinion, these sources are word-of-mouth and not really official enough to use at sources. Thanks, Shambala108 ☎ 22:23, December 12, 2017 (UTC)

Sorry about the video, this was actually a comment under it saying roughly the same thing as the forum account but I don't think we can link to only the comment section anymore... To be clear this is not just behind the scenes stuff since this is what they allegedly saw when it was broadcast on TV: people accounts are the only to know what occured on-screen for wiped stories (is there even a precedent for things like that on the wiki ?). Even though I believe that they are saying the truth, I fully agree with you that my sources are not trustable enough for the wiki articles. However I would find it strange that nobody else ever mentionned it (in an interview or a DWM summary of the story for example): I began the discussion mostly to check if someone remember seeing it in a more official testimony.RingoRoadagain ☎ 23:00, December 12, 2017 (UTC)

Hey, all. Very late to the programme, enjoying the early black-and-white episodes for the very first time.

Finishing "The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve" just now, but wondering if there's been any comment on how ludicrously violent and politically uninteresting this serial would've been to the children watching in 1966. For a children's show, the public outcry must've been fantastic, yet I've only been able to locate a single YT commentator that might broach the subject (haven't viewed it yet, as I'm waiting 'til I finish the serial's finale in a moment).

As a fan, I was enthralled with this story, but I can't imagine children or their parents were very pleased with it at all. Anyone know where I could travel back in time to 1966 to read about the public's reaction for this particular serial?

--Dont Panic Dent ☎ 03:53, August 20, 2020 (UTC)

The Full Title

Does any oppose switching the the full, 1960's accurate title as the pagename? OS25🤙☎️ 20:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I think it's best left where it is given the factors mentioned in the page's lead. If we were trying to be accurate to the 1960s, we'd have An Unearthly Child at 100,000 BC, after all. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 21:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the rename. Comparable reference sources like TCH use the full title, and we also use full story titles for other serials which it might be convenient to abbreviate (for instance, Doctor Who and the Silurians (TV story)). I see no reason why the full name, The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve (TV story), wouldn't take priority here. – n8 (☎) 21:41, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Jack, to address your point: according to the great early story title analysis "By Any Other Name", the contest is between The Massacre of St Bartholomew and The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve, the former being an abbreviation of the latter – "The Massacre" doesn't even enter into it. It's the wiki's policy (as explained by User:SOTO at Talk:Main Range) that "We've always (always always) gone with original titles". I don't think this should be an exception. – n8 (☎) 21:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I understand that, but Czech cited T:SERIALS when they moved the page from The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve to The Massacre, which states that "the name given in the BBC's episode guide is preferred". Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 22:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

If it were up to me, we WOULD list An Unearthly Child (TV story) as 100,000 BC. And I have the feeling that we may someday soon. OS25🤙☎️ 22:36, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

And as N8 said, TCH 7 seems like enough evidence that some BBC listings do state the correct title. OS25🤙☎️ 22:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Here's what The Complete History has to say on the matter:

"By 1974, BBC Enterprises was listing the serial under the title The Massacre of Bartholomew. From 1975, the more commonly used title The Massacre was adopted, apparently originating in The Doctor Who Minibook published by Keith Miller of the Doctor Who Fan Club; this title was then adopted by the Doctor Who Appreciation Society in some of its guides from 1976 and used by landmark reference works such as the 1976 edition of The Making of Doctor Who and the paperback edition of The Doctor Who Programme Guide in 1981, with the title The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve only re-emerging in some quarters in the late 1980s."

It seems to suggest that The Massacre (used for the novelisation and soundtrack [although the soundtrack does begin with Purves introducing it by the full name]) is the more common title. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 23:28, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

While that may be the case, we don't name pages on most commonly used titles, else Doctor Who (TV story) would be at The TV Movie.

The fact of the matter is that we must use the original title, not what came later.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

13:59, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Surely that would mean moving An Unearthly Child to 100,000 BC, then. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 14:16, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

14:20, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

In which case, I'd say this probably needs to be decided in the forums. An Uneartgky Child, The Daleks and The Edge of Destruction would all be affected. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 14:23, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Story pages should be named with the most common official title people will search for. No one these days calls those first three 60s serials by those names. DWM insist on it, but it seems like “hard cope” on the magazine’s side. The most common way to experience the story is the DVD. Those titles should be used as that’s what 95% of people will call the story.

I suggest leaving the page with the current title and renaming it to whatever the eventual DVD or blu ray says. 81.106.187.1^{talk to me} 14:28, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 14:40, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

From Wikipedia: "original production documents state the name of the serial as "The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve", although this is an anachronism, as the actual massacre took place on St Bartholomew's Day" ... That being said, here are some of my thoughts on the matter:

DWM's way of titling is pure hard cope, and stubbornness on their part. They also started being awkward about series numbering a while back (anyone remember when a front cover said "Series 2 with Matt and Karen") and now tend to say awkward things like "the 1986 series" on occasion. They feel like an outlier. I'd say most people know these stories as "An Unearthly Child", "The Daleks", "The Edge of Destruction" and "The Massacre".

Recently, we started to pave the way for locating things much more easily on here, with regards to names like "the Saxon Master" etc. And whilst there was debate, I feel as though the best solution is "what would most people search for?" and I feel in this case, the shortened version of the title is the one most known and used. The Target novelisation goes with "The Massacre", our evil twin cousin Wikipedia uses "The Massacre", The Lost TV Episodes Collection soundtrack CDs go with "The Massacre", the BBC Radio audiobook goes with "The Massacre" (the booklet admittedly goes with both titles), the official doctorwho.tv website has the longer title in its URL but simply uses "The Massacre" as the title on the story page itself, and the old BBC cult website has it as "The Massacre" too. The other official BBC website also refers to it as "The Massacre".

We could wait for the DVD / blu-ray but what if it follows suit of other products which use the short title and the longer title (eg. the short title on the disc but then the longer one in the booklet)? And is the blu-ray any more or less 'official' than, say, the official doctorwho.tv website? Fractal Doctor ☎ 17:06, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

"If it were up to me, we WOULD list An Unearthly Child (TV story) as 100,000 BC. And I have the feeling that we may someday soon." I wanted to respond to this separately from up thread, to say I hope not. I feel this would be a step backwards. This Wiki has long used those titles now and has arguably helped more fans get to know those stories with those titles. I won't go into the whole debate here, but if/when a fan goes to buy the "Beginning" DVD boxset, I feel it would be strange if we're referring to "100,000 BC" when the most widely agreed title these days is "An Unearthly Child" (with the DVD, and presumably to-come blu-ray cementing that). Is there no way we could somehow add an infobox or a disclaimer at the top of appropriate 1960s stories page to inform readers that some stories have different titles according to different sources, to alleviate confusion? Fractal Doctor ☎ 17:15, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I would like to note that the latest DWM issue once again uses The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve, so I support renaming the page to have the "long" title. Pluto2☎ 04:29, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, but they also called Clyde Langer Clive Langer so can you trust em? Also official cd release > old guard writing the dwm. 81.108.82.15^{talk to me} 09:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The Massacre as a title is pure revisionism, if DWM thinks the full title is correct I trust them. OS25🤙☎️ 16:47, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Doctor Who Magazine uses 100,000 BC, The Mutants and Inside the Spaceship for the first three stories of season 1. These are the original names, but that's not how they're remembered. They're now known as An Unearthly Child, The Daleks and The Edge of Destruction, which are the names that the DVD releases and the wiki uses, so their usage isn't always typical. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 16:52, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

In general I prefer using the correct names for things, but at a certain point the false memory of a community takes on a life of its own and no amount of wiki editors trying to insist that the correct name is something else will change that. This happens with words and phrases as well (cf "begging the question", it hurts me every time). I don't know if "The Massacre" is one we can fight. But there's absolutely no way we're changing people's minds on "An Unearthly Child" and "The Daleks". Erase that from your mind. No. Najawin ☎ 16:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd also add that it doesn't seem that Terror of the Vervoids was the actual name of the story. It was commissioned as The Ultimate Foe and Pip and Jane referred to it as The Vervoids, but the novelisation was later released as Terror of the Vervoids. There's "pure revisionism" with several story names. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 17:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that all the "stories" of season 23 were named conjecturally based on the novelisation. Similarly, Najawin I'll note that "An Unearthly Child" unambiguously refers to the first episode of the serial either way, and allowing episode pages a la comic book episode pages, in addition to properly-named serial pages, might let us square that circle while also going into more detail in our coverage (see User:NateBumber#Ideas for elaboration). But we're drifting way off-topic here; let's save it for the forum thread. The fact is that The Massacre is much more straight-forward than any of these other cases, as it's a simple abbreviation of the proper name rather than something wholly different. I don't think there's any theoretical or practical reason standing in the way of adoption. – n8 (☎) 17:23, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I still think that this page should retain the title "The Massacre (TV Story)" for reasons argued above. My only alternative suggestion would be to implement a way to add 'alternate titles' into certain Wiki pages, so it could be "The Massacre (TV Story)" followed by "(Sometimes referred to as XXX)".

You know how we have those boxes atop some pages which cite errors, or stuff like "This article needs a big cleanup." ~ My thinking is that we could create a new box, just something small but noticeable, which could showcase the fact that sometimes Doctor Who stories have used alternative titles. Doesn't have to be a huge essay, just a simple line or two, and then perhaps ending with "However, for the sake of recognition, this Wiki opts to use X title."

Personally, I don't know if I'd care for something like that, but it was just a thought to throw in. — Fractal Doctor @ 22:01, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I oppose renaming the page. The discussion above has demonstrated to my satisfaction that the wiki's rules about naming are irreconcilably self-contradictory in this case, and that being the case I think "The Massacre" has the best claim, being the most commonly used title today (not least by the BBC). In any case, I think this is an entirely separate case from An Unearthly Child, The Daleks, and The Edge of Destruction — all of those are current official titles of the stories according to every modern means of consuming them, whatever appeared on their production paperwork. As others have said, I'd reconsider renaming this page if we were to get a home video release that used the full original title or the more accurate abridged title. Metz77 ☎ 08:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Dead link 2

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.recons.com/recons/lc16.htm (archive)
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The web page has been saved by the Internet Archive. Please consider linking to an appropriate archived version: [1]. --Botgo50 (my talk, operator's talk) 17:42, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Corrected. Metz77 ☎ 08:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)