Forum:Splitting the Doctor's sonic screwdrivers

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Opening post

Simple thread this: I think it is a sensible and wise decision to split all of the Doctor's sonic screwdriver into separate pages for each model.

After asking @Cousin Ettolrhc for permission to create this opening post, I'd first like to say that @MrThermomanPreacher has created pages for the sonics belonging to the first thirteen Doctors, and I've done the fourteenth's; so we've got the rough bases of the pages ready to go.

Otherwise, the only thing I feel there is to discuss is the page names; while I am not sure if using the first owner or primary owner of a sonic should have the page named after them, I feel, not unlike Susan's TARDIS bedroom, we should only have the page named after one Doctor; so Eleventh Doctor's sonic screwdriver with Twelfth Doctor's sonic screwdriver as a redirect, over Eleventh and Twelfth Doctors' sonic screwdriver, as we don't put every user of Susan's bedroom in the page name. For example, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Doctors' sonic screwdriver is a clunky page name. And that's not getting into other users of the screwdrivers, like Nardole in The Pilot.

Another benefit is /Appearances and /Gallery subpages which can be model specific, rather than grouping over a dozen different designs on a single subpage. As you can see on User:Epsilon the Eternal/Fourteenth Doctor's sonic screwdriver/Gallery, this is an example of such a gallery subpage.

I know this is a short opening post but I feel it is likely uncontroversial and there isn't much to really "hash out" in terms of changing policy or such, just a (hopefully) simple split.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

20:45, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

I completely and unequivocally agree with this (although I may need to check what unequivocally means, as I've forgotten). I believe that we should retain the current page as an overview, and name the screwdrivers by their first user, as who the "primary" user is with Three, Four and Five's is somewhat ambiguous. Aquanafrahudy 📢 20:49, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I generally agree, the naming I have no strong opinions on, but a split is definitely needed. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 20:50, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the split as I have for a long time wanted to do so myself, but wouldn’t know where to start because there is so much to cover, even for a single version of the screwdriver. I also agree with Aquanafrahudy that if we do name a single owner, we should go with the first owner as per the example mentioned. We should also do redirects. Danniesen ☎ 20:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

My only concern with first user is in the case of the Second Doctor's penlight sonic, as some - but not all - EU sources have retroactively stated that the First Doctor also used it. Perhaps we should do first real world user, not in-universe chronological?

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:00, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

How many stories does the First Doctor have it in? As far as I know, only in Venusian Lullaby. Danniesen ☎ 21:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I can't remember off the top of my head.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:07, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm also strongly in favour of this split. I'll also throw out the idea of naming these pages using first appearance as a dab. I think I'd still prefer first user myself, but that's always an option if necessary. Also, the First Doctor certainly has a sonic-like device in Venusian Lullaby (which is indeed his only recorded use of the device), but there's no indication that it's the same one as 2's. I don't think it's even referred to as a screwdriver. But either way, it's a vague enough reference to mention on Second Doctor's sonic screwdriver. Another Second Doctor sonic is seen in The Murder Game, where he makes a new sonic from scratch, before it is destroyed (and he resolves to make a more permanent edition). Danochy ☎ 21:10, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The First Doctor also had a sonic screwdriver in LEGO Dimensions. Cgl1999 ☎ 22:36, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I was about to say that, but got an edit conflict (specifically, the text I wrote was: ": I think the First Doctor uses one in LEGO Dimensions, but I'm not sure if that particular element is meant to be taken literally. ~~~~") Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 22:38, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, i support this.Cousin Ettolrahc ☎ 05:20, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I support the original proposal and agree that they should be sorted by first appearance with a redirect to the Doctor’s Who used them so Sonic Screwdriver (Doctor Who) would have a redirect for Eight Doctor’s First Sonic Screwdriver and Seventh Doctor’s Sonic ScrewdriverAnastasia Cousins ☎ 07:38, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The thing here with that proposal is that it only takes the TV show/movie into account. The Seventh Doctor used a screwdriver in expanded media beyond the movie. It’s only in the TV Series that the screwdriver is given a break after its destruction in The Visitation. We need to cover all the bases, which includes comics, audios etc. Danniesen ☎ 08:51, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Further I don’t think LEGO Dimensions is supposed to count here given that it’s a game in which you can choose your own Doctor to play as and he had to have a weapon. Although it’s still a source, it would not be enough to call it the First Doctor's screwdriver. Danniesen ☎ 08:51, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Another thing to take into the discussion… would we split the pages based on specific screwdrivers being destroyed and replaced with identical ones? Such as Smith and Jones technically gets rid of the screwdriver used all the way back in Rose, but replaces it with an identical one. This happens to the Eleventh Doctor’s screwdriver and the Twelfth Doctor's second model as well. Danniesen ☎ 09:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Same page IMO. Too much ambiguity. Who is to say that the Doctor didn't have multiple, so when he left the TARDIS he picked up the closest available model, leaving behind the model seen in other episodes? And that the model seen in Rose may have been left behind that day?

The Silver Turk, AFAIK, said the Doctor had a whole room full of sonics.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

10:25, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Fair point. Let’s just keep each model contained to one page for the sake of sanity. Danniesen ☎ 10:28, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I also agree, both to the proposal in general and to keeping the pages to each model. And I guess I might as well lay out what I think the names for the pages should be.

• Second Doctor's sonic screwdriver, with First Doctor's sonic screwdriver as redirect,
• Third Doctor's sonic screwdriver with redirects at Fourth Doctor's sonic screwdriver and Fifth Doctor's sonic screwdriver,
• Seventh Doctor's sonic screwdriver with a redirect at Eighth Doctor's sonic screwdriver,
• Eighth Doctor's second sonic screwdriver I suppose,
• War Doctor's sonic screwdriver,
• Ninth Doctor's sonic screwdriver with a direct at Tenth Doctor's sonic screwdriver,
• Eleventh Doctor's sonic screwdriver with a redirect at Twelfth Doctor's sonic screwdriver,
• Twelfth Doctor's second sonic screwdriver,
• Thirteenth Doctor's sonic screwdriver,
• and Fourteenth Doctor's sonic screwdriver.

From there any future sonics would follow the same format, though it might be better to replace those 'seconds' with disambiguating by debut story. For example Twelfth Doctor's sonic screwdriver (Hell Bent), this would also be in line with potential pages like Ninth Doctor's sonic screwdriver (Scream of the Shalka). Time God Eon ☎ 05:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Late to the party but everyone's covered all the bases, it seems. I'm in agreement with the OP and the above - yes to the split, and the way it's been suggested we split. Short but sweet response from me. — Fractal Doctor @ 11:14, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I like all your suggestions Time God Eon. Except that I am more fond of "second" than I would be with a dab. Danniesen ☎ 15:17, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd prefer it to be Eighth Doctor's sonic screwdriver with a redirect at Seventh, because Eight uses it for much longer.Cousin Ettolrahc ☎ 17:40, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Thinking about it, what are the differences between the Seven/Eighth Doctors' screwdriver to the Third/Fourth/Fifth's? Are they meant to be the same models? Also, if we go through with this split, would be merge The Doctor's sonic screwdriver (The Curse of Fatal Death) and The Doctor's sonic screwdriver (Scream of the Shalka) into our article on the Seventh/Eighth's (or Third's if we merge those). Sorry that I don't know this myself as the thread OP, but it's just occurred to me.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

14:07, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Although this could be saved for another thread if we can't figure it out, so we can split the pages now and merge any if the evidence arises later. I'd rather see the split go through than to be halted by umming about if some models are the same as others.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

14:08, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd be fine with that, for now I just based the list on how they're divided by the existing The Doctor's sonic screwdriver page, so having the initial split follow that and re-discussing it as needed works for me.Time God Eon ☎ 19:12, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Conclusion

This was a very uncontroversial thread and so it's going to be a short closing post. The proposal passes, specifically naming pages by their first user with redirects for their later users. As such, we will go with the page names and redirects layed out by Time God Eon. If any specific page names are causing issues, that can be discussed on the relevant talk page. Thank you very much to MrThermomanPreacher for producing most of the draft pages for the split and to Epsilon the Eternal for his draft page. We will go ahead with those. Thanks to all those who particpated. Bongo50 ☎ 17:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC)