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==The Relic==
{{ArchCat}}
''(diff) (hist) . . Eighth Doctor‎; 17:07 . . ***Stardizzy*** (Talk | contribs) (→The Doctor's involvement in the ''Future'' War with ''The Enemy'' - cleaning up prose, also removing Doctor's "future corpse"; didn't the Relic come from the dead version of the Third Doctor?)''


No...
== Doctor Who and the Time War and its relation to canon ==
The Relic featured in Alien Bodies is buried by the third Doctor )or the fourth, can't remember).
''Doctor Who and the Time War'' definitely belongs on here, but shouldn't it be placed in the alternate timelines section? It's stated as events from a parallel universe by Davies and in the introduction. [[User:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived]] [[User talk:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:48, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
But it isn't the third Doctor, the third Doctor (in which ever timeline) either dies on Dust or dies or dies on Earth per Planet of the Spiders.
: A problem with classing it as an alternate timeline is the fact that the story is later alluded to in ''[[Revenge of the Nestene (short story)|Revenge of the Nestene]]''. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:56, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
The Relic is the body of the Doctor, the Doctor who lives through the future war with the Enemy...
:: For one thing, an [[alternate timeline]] and a [[parallel universe]] are two different concepts in the ''Doctor Who'' universe. Something stated to be a parallel universe would necessitate the creation of [[Eighth Doctor (Time War World)]] or whatever, like e.g. [[Peter Tyler (Pete's World)]].
Ie The Relic is the body of the Doctor...from the same future that Homunculette is from, except slightly eariler than Homunculette obviously.
By Homunculette coming back in time to bid on the Relic, and thus making the 8th Doctor aware of this it changes the future, but because of the temporal nature of the Time Lord's future it doesn't change it, 'change it'.


It is stated that the body of the Relic isn't the Doctor 'now' but his body in the future after he encounters even more things that change his biodata, the Faction Paradox and the Time Lords both want The Relic, the Faction Paradox because that's how their technology works the Time Lords because they've lost access to things through their war, time lines being written and re-written means they can't access some things, they think that the Relic with all its changes and information in the bio-data will help them in this quest.
::Furthermore, Davies doesn't say it's a parallel universe, he says the story constitutes a glimpse of "parallel events". This could mean many things, and must be confronted with Davies also saying in the same breath that "all stories are true", and, as [[User:WaltK]] said, with the fact that in a new story, written this year in full knowledge of ''Night of the Doctor'', he still chooses to reference facts from ''Doctor Who and the Time War''
--[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 13:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
==Is an "in-universe" approach really the best one to take with the Eighth Doctor?==
Shouldn't there at least be a link to the Big Finish audios or the comics, both of which have detailed plotlines for the Eighth Doctor? I could understand just covering the TV movie and linking out to the books/audios/comics, but it seems really odd to imply that one of the non-telly media is the 'real' Eighth Doctor chronology and ignore the other two entirely.--[[User:Doyle|Doyle]] 15:05, 9 August 2007


::Anything that is to be written must be written from an 'in-universe' perspective, within the Eighth Doctor article. It is remiss that there isn't a passing reference to the other parts that you've mentioned. (Which I'll probably begin work on soon at some point). --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 14:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
::It seems far more likely to me, in light of the latter comment, that he means it in the sense that we're seeing a glimpse into a parallel history ''of the show'' where [[Steven Moffat]] did not write ''[[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|The Day of the Doctor]]'' and thus Davies was able to release ''Doctor Who and the Time War'' in DWM for the 50th anniversary. Which is distinct from the story, ''in universe'', being a parallel universe or alternate timeline.


:::To me, this article is organized in a way that will render it impossible to complete with accuracy.   The Eighth Doctor simply cannot be written about from a completely in-universe point of view. There have been so many frankly discordant narrative runs — most of whom don't make reference to the other parts — that you really can't find a single, accurate chronology of events.  This needs to be explained to the reader — in an out of universe voice — for the article to be genuinely useful.  To say, simply, that the events of ''The Eight Doctors'' are what happened directly after the television movie is entirely biased towards that particular medium.  There's no reason in the world why ''[[Storm Warning]]'', ''[[End Game]]'', or ''[[Dreadnought]]'' can't equally be viewed as the immediate post-TVM story. 
::Heck, "parallel events" can mean anything. It could just be a case of events happening "in parallel", that is to say at the same time as one another. Considering what a brain-bendingly timey-wimey Time War is depicted by Davies in this story and ''[[Revenge of the Nestene (short story)|Revenge of the Nestene]]'', what's to say that somehow, the Eighth Doctor and the War Doctor don't simultaneously regenerate into the same incarnation as timelines collapse around them? Weirder things have happened in the DWU. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:04, March 27, 2020 (UTC)


:::The first duty of this wiki shouldn't be "write it in-universe", but rather "avoid bias".  The Eighth Doctor is an obvious exception to the general guideline to write in-universe, because doing so immediately causes bias.  You have to choose a place to start the biography, and that choice reveals your bias.  It would be best if this article had four sections — Radio Times continuity, DWM continuity, Big Finish continuity, EDA continuity —  and then explored each of those branches as separate.  To the minor extent that there are crossovers — ''[[Placebo Effect]]'', for instance — a little background note would suffice to explain the event as an attempt to integrate the events of one medium into another. 
::: Quick admin note (more related to the title than the discussion itself). This story's relation to canon, as far as the wiki is concerned, is the same as any other's: [[Tardis:Canon policy|"we don't believe there is such a thing as a "canon" for ''Doctor Who''"]]. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] ([[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|talk]]) 23:12, March 27, 2020 (UTC)


:::On the whole, though, it's folly — but most of all, ''unhelpful'' — to try to place all these events into a cohesive, singular biography.  The defining characteristic of the "Eighth Doctor's era" is its ''lack'' of definition. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 18:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
::: The stuff in "alternate timelines" mostly refers to versions of this Doctor whose existence is presented in their respective stories as an alternative in relation to a ''primary'' version of the Doctor who is ''in the same stories'' (i.e. the "[[Johann Schmidt]]" Eighth Doctor who is an alternate future for the [[Seventh Doctor]] around whom the Klein arc revolves). ''[[Doctor Who and the Time War (short story)|Doctor Who and the Time War]]'' doesn't really fit that mould, so its current placement and framing is the right way to go. Instead of speculating the how and why of it all in the article itself, I think it's best just acknowledge that it differs from most accounts of the Eighth Doctor's final days and immediate future. People can decide for themselves how it happened and fits into their own personal "canon" (if indeed it fits for them at all :P) [[User:Toqgers|Toqgers]] [[User talk:Toqgers|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:09, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
:::: This is, I agree, the best approach (and the one, it seems, dictated by policy). We take things as they are, and offer alternate accounts when they're given. "Parallel events" can indeed mean so many things.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 04:08, March 28, 2020 (UTC)


== Infobox image update? ==
<gallery>
Eight.jpg|Current
McGannLooksLeft.jpg|#1
Eight Dark Eyes Infobox Example.jpg|#2
</gallery>
I would like to propose a new infobox image (see right). — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 13:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


: The gremlin in me wants to propose an EU image considering television isn't this Doctor's primary medium. However I expect nobody to agree with me here. Just my thoughts on the matter. [[User:Epsilon|&#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature&#125;&#125;]] [[User talk:Epsilon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
:: Ooh, this is actually really nice. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
:::I'm against an EU image, but maybe it could be put to a vote? Might be worth getting a gallery going on here, of TV images as well as EU images, so people can then vote on preferences? — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 16:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


:::: I absolutely agree that if you try and force all of the strands into one chronology you inevitably end up making your favourite the most ''real'' one. Whether that means going with the audios or comics and 'explaining away' the novels, or whether that means going with the novels and 'fitting in' the audios and comics. Very convincing Complete Eighth Doctor Biographies can be produced, and I'm very attached to my own mental one, but they all depend on massive ammount of speculation and bias.
:::: I feel unfortunately that the EU may not provide too many good images, as prose is usually unillustrated, comics can often vary in quality, and audio covers aren't the best source. Although, considering that Big Finish promo pictures can be used as valid illustrations now, we could look for an image of Eight in his ''Dark Eyes'' costume. [[User:Epsilon|&#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature&#125;&#125;]] [[User talk:Epsilon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


:::: On the other hand...I don't think this means we have to step 'out of universe'. As you say the defining aspect of his era has been a lack of definition, but that's as true 'in universe(s)' as without. The Big Finish Eighth Doctor's life has been an arc about a paradox, the BBC Novel's Eighth Doctor's life has been an arc about a paradox...
::::: Added an example. [[User:Epsilon|&#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature&#125;&#125;]] [[User talk:Epsilon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


:::: Why not start the biography with a brief section on the uncertain nature of the Eighth Doctor's life, referencing that great quote about it from ''The Gallifrey Chronicles'' -  
::::::: I don't think that would be a good idea, in [[T:NPOV]] terms. The TVM look is one which all the various ranges agree upon as something the Eighth Doctor did look like at ''one'' point, while the ''Dark Eyes'' makeover is a quirk of one particular version. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


:::::''"Look at the rest of the Doctor's time-stream, though. It's meant to be a neat line. The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail out of this chaos I don't know.''
:::::::: I agree with Scrooge tbh. Also, Epsilon, TV isn't the Decayed Master's primary medium either but we still use an image from his TV appearance. — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 22:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


::::Whether you put it down to Charely Pollard or Faction Paradox, it's an ''in universe'' fact that this guy's timelines are shot to hell.  
:::::::: Same goes for the War Doctor too, I guess. — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 22:11, 1 March 2024 (UTC)


:::: You could then divide the biography up into sections on the three different continuites and present them with equal weight, a disclaimer noting the uncertainty as to how they fit together.
::::::::: I didn't expect the ''Dark Eyes'' to be particularly the best idea. But when we've a characters with barely three onscreen appearances and hundreds in other mediums, it does strike me a little... unneutral to use a television image.
 
::::::::: Perhaps a tabbed gallery in thr infobox, so we can have images from Eight's different mediums? We don't ordinarily do this, especially given that Eight doesn't look that different between mediums, but considering Eight's era is 99% EU content, it may be a special case. [[User:Epsilon|&#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature&#125;&#125;]] [[User talk:Epsilon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
:::: The biography could then end with a 'Behind the scenes'/Speculative section detailing the different ways that have been suggested as to how it all might fit together.--[[User:Richard Jones|Richard Jones]] 21:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 
:::::Yeah I agree with Richard, on both the complexity and the breaking it all up, but only if it's absolutely necessary (and also allows to give equal weight to everything), so we could have the Big Finish run, the EDA and the DWMs.
:::::As to time placement of certain stories [[Storm Warning]] ''does not'' take place straight after the TVM (as it's placement is explained in [[Terror Firma]]). [[Endgame]] opens in such a way that it's not explicit as to where it starts. [[The Eight Doctors]] is the starting point because it directly references the TVM and leaves (little) room to manouvere.
:::::On a side note, there isn't anything (hugely) contradictorary in the Eighth Doctor time line (okay it's all over the place but there's are no huge inexplipible problems)...unlike the for example Ace and the Seventh Doctor (in which DWM comics serious muck everything up with different POVs of Ace and Gallifrey).
:::::It may be folly, however [[Lance Parkin]]'s [[AHistory]] puts everything (well the Big Finishes, TV stories and Novels) in one cohesive continuity, so I see no reason why it can't be written (as mentioned the only slight problem is the DWM comics, but as Richard has said there are various ways that can be explained). 
:::::Also, even if we break up the sections there is the slight problem that only 1 out of the 3 is finished; the DWM comics, the EDAs ended on a cliffhanger with The Gallifey Chronicles and the BFAs are still going. So even broken up the individual parts couldn't be re-integrated into one continuity.  
:::::Most timelines are based on best guesses, the Eighth Doctor one is based on where things ''could'' go (for example the everything up to Zagreus has to take place before [[The Ancestor Cell]]...probably) The Big Finish and DWM comics have to take place from the TVM up to The Ancestor Cell or (potentially) after The Gallifrey Chronicles. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 05:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 
 
:::::: It's well established that [[The Dying Days]] and the Radio Times strips take place in the pre-[[Vampire Science]] gap, so there'd be no need to separate those out. What I think we should be considering is something like this...--[[User:Richard Jones|Richard Jones]] 12:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 
:::::::That looks okay. (Just one tiny note...there should be a space between the : and the ''story title'') sorry to be a bit picky. (Ie [[BFA]]: ''[[Zagreus (audio story)|Zagreus]]'')  --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 13:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 
 
==''Proposed Biographical Structure''==
 
===Birth Cry===
''Summary of the TVM. Ending with...''
 
The Temporal Orbit, travelling back into his own timestream to undo events in which he had been involved, was the Eighth Doctor's 'birth cry' ([[EDA]]:''[[Unnatural History]]''), heralding a life of considerable complexity. Those attempting to view the Eighth Doctor's time-stream would find it not a neat line ([[EDA]]:''[[The Gallifrey Chronicles]]'') but rather a chaos of paradoxes ([[EDA]]:''[[Interference]]'', [[BFA]]:''[[Storm Warning]]'') and parallel time lines ([[BFA]]: ''[[Zagreus]]'', [[EDA]]:''[[Time Zero]]).
 
 
Consequently, although several periods of the Eighth Doctor's life are well documented, there remains no definitive account of how these eras relate to each other.
 
===Life, Death and Amnesia===
''Biography of the EDA/Dying Days/Radio Times era.''
''From [[The Eight Doctors]] through to [[The Gallifrey Chronicles]].''
''Noting the big gaps in which the adventures of the other media may take place, but not offering conjecture on which do.''
 
===''Insert Suitable Title Here''===
''Biography of the DWM era.''
 
===Travelling with Charley===
''Biography of the main Big Finish era.''
 
===Travelling with Lucie===
''Biography of the BBC7 era''
''(I think it's best to separate the two audio eras up, as it's perfectly possible for someone to think the Charley-era happens sometime pre-[[Ancestor Cell]] while the Lucie-era happens sometime post-[[The Gallifrey Chronicles]]. I know I do. ''
 
===Behind the Scenes===
Brief account of how the three continuities stopped playing nice, and a list of some of the suggested options by which fans can slot them all in together.
 
Myself I like putting the DWM strips in the pre-''Vampire Science'' gap, the Charley audios in the pre-''Blue Angel'' gap, and the Lucie audios after the ''Gallifrey Chronicles'' and the restoration of Gallifrey. But there's no right answer here and it would be a big ol' fib for the wikia to pretend there was.  
 
This section might as well also note Lance Parkin's suggestion that [[The Infinity Doctors]] could be set late in the Eighth Doctor's life.
 
--[[User:Richard Jones|Richard Jones]] 12:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 22:11, 1 March 2024

Archive.png
 Archives: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5

Doctor Who and the Time War and its relation to canon[[edit source]]

Doctor Who and the Time War definitely belongs on here, but shouldn't it be placed in the alternate timelines section? It's stated as events from a parallel universe by Davies and in the introduction. Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived ☎ 20:48, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

A problem with classing it as an alternate timeline is the fact that the story is later alluded to in Revenge of the Nestene. WaltK ☎ 20:56, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
For one thing, an alternate timeline and a parallel universe are two different concepts in the Doctor Who universe. Something stated to be a parallel universe would necessitate the creation of Eighth Doctor (Time War World) or whatever, like e.g. Peter Tyler (Pete's World).
Furthermore, Davies doesn't say it's a parallel universe, he says the story constitutes a glimpse of "parallel events". This could mean many things, and must be confronted with Davies also saying in the same breath that "all stories are true", and, as User:WaltK said, with the fact that in a new story, written this year in full knowledge of Night of the Doctor, he still chooses to reference facts from Doctor Who and the Time War
It seems far more likely to me, in light of the latter comment, that he means it in the sense that we're seeing a glimpse into a parallel history of the show where Steven Moffat did not write The Day of the Doctor and thus Davies was able to release Doctor Who and the Time War in DWM for the 50th anniversary. Which is distinct from the story, in universe, being a parallel universe or alternate timeline.
Heck, "parallel events" can mean anything. It could just be a case of events happening "in parallel", that is to say at the same time as one another. Considering what a brain-bendingly timey-wimey Time War is depicted by Davies in this story and Revenge of the Nestene, what's to say that somehow, the Eighth Doctor and the War Doctor don't simultaneously regenerate into the same incarnation as timelines collapse around them? Weirder things have happened in the DWU. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 22:04, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
Quick admin note (more related to the title than the discussion itself). This story's relation to canon, as far as the wiki is concerned, is the same as any other's: "we don't believe there is such a thing as a "canon" for Doctor Who". OncomingStorm12th (talk) 23:12, March 27, 2020 (UTC)
The stuff in "alternate timelines" mostly refers to versions of this Doctor whose existence is presented in their respective stories as an alternative in relation to a primary version of the Doctor who is in the same stories (i.e. the "Johann Schmidt" Eighth Doctor who is an alternate future for the Seventh Doctor around whom the Klein arc revolves). Doctor Who and the Time War doesn't really fit that mould, so its current placement and framing is the right way to go. Instead of speculating the how and why of it all in the article itself, I think it's best just acknowledge that it differs from most accounts of the Eighth Doctor's final days and immediate future. People can decide for themselves how it happened and fits into their own personal "canon" (if indeed it fits for them at all :P) Toqgers ☎ 00:09, March 28, 2020 (UTC)
This is, I agree, the best approach (and the one, it seems, dictated by policy). We take things as they are, and offer alternate accounts when they're given. "Parallel events" can indeed mean so many things.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 04:08, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

Infobox image update?[[edit source]]

  • Current

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I would like to propose a new infobox image (see right). — Fractal Doctor • 13:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The gremlin in me wants to propose an EU image considering television isn't this Doctor's primary medium. However I expect nobody to agree with me here. Just my thoughts on the matter. {{SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature}} ☎ 16:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Ooh, this is actually really nice. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm against an EU image, but maybe it could be put to a vote? Might be worth getting a gallery going on here, of TV images as well as EU images, so people can then vote on preferences? — Fractal Doctor • 16:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I feel unfortunately that the EU may not provide too many good images, as prose is usually unillustrated, comics can often vary in quality, and audio covers aren't the best source. Although, considering that Big Finish promo pictures can be used as valid illustrations now, we could look for an image of Eight in his Dark Eyes costume. {{SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature}} ☎ 21:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Added an example. {{SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature}} ☎ 21:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't think that would be a good idea, in T:NPOV terms. The TVM look is one which all the various ranges agree upon as something the Eighth Doctor did look like at one point, while the Dark Eyes makeover is a quirk of one particular version. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Scrooge tbh. Also, Epsilon, TV isn't the Decayed Master's primary medium either but we still use an image from his TV appearance. — Fractal Doctor • 22:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Same goes for the War Doctor too, I guess. — Fractal Doctor • 22:11, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
I didn't expect the Dark Eyes to be particularly the best idea. But when we've a characters with barely three onscreen appearances and hundreds in other mediums, it does strike me a little... unneutral to use a television image.
Perhaps a tabbed gallery in thr infobox, so we can have images from Eight's different mediums? We don't ordinarily do this, especially given that Eight doesn't look that different between mediums, but considering Eight's era is 99% EU content, it may be a special case. {{SUBST:User:Epsilon/signature}} ☎ 22:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
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