Talk:The Master

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Please note that, due to the templates set up to connect to specific sections of The Master, headings should not be changed.

The following templates exist for the different incarnations of the Master:

• Template:Delgado
• Template:Ainley
• Template:Roberts
• Template:Jacobi
• Template:Simm
• Template:Fallen
• Template:Macqueen
• Template:Gomez
• Template:Pratt
• Template:Dreyfus
• Template:Dhawan
• Template:Tipple
• Template:Titan
• Template:McKee
• Template:Pryce
• Template:Merlin

The way we'll now connect to this page is to write something like this:

The [[Fourth Doctor]] faced his final challenge: a confrontation with {{Ainley}} atop the [[radio telescope]]. ([[TV]]: ''[[Logopolis (TV story)|]]'')

which yields:

The Fourth Doctor faced his final challenge: a confrontation with the Tremas Master atop the radio telescope. (TV: Logopolis)

If you need to make the the capitalised, then type {{Ainley|c}}. These links, be they {{delgado}}, {{Ainley}} or whoever will go directly to the section of this article dealing with that version of the character.

The Doctor/Master

The Power of the Doctor raised a pretty big question, how should we cover the Doctor/Master incarnation?

Perhaps as a subsection of the Thirteenth Doctor or as a subsection of the Spy Master?

In my opinion this incarnation deserves a page of its own as it was a regeneration in its own right. There were gaps in this character's story left throughout the episode that could lead to potential stories being told that wouldn't involve Thirteen or the original Master (such as when he was causing chaos in the universe with Yaz, or when Yaz abandoned him) and therefore wouldn't make sense to be placed on either's page.

If this character does receive their own page I think that they should be considered an incarnation of both the Doctor and the Master, with him being labeled under more ambiguous on the incarnations of the Doctor template similar to the Meta-Crisis. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 21:47, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Mh, I'm not sure. Consciousness-wise he's clearly a continuation of the Master, so if we cover him anywhere, it should definitely principally be at the Spy Master just like we cover most of the Roberts Master's exploits on the Master's page, not at Bruce (Doctor Who). This is the Master body-surfing; we've seen this before. As a "the Master in a stolen body", he currently cannot get his own page any more than any of the other possessed-Masters can. But it's a fair question whether he'll get his own page when we do the eventual Master split, and whether, as such, he should get his own heading vs. being a subheading of "As the Spy Master". I'm leading towards the latter even there, though, given that he reverts back to being the original Dhawan in the end and it's always the same actor…

Whether we want to link to him somewhere in {{doctors}} is a fair point too. I think maybe yes. But under what name? That's the question.Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The page name that makes the most sense to me is The Doctor (The Power of the Doctor) as literally the whole point of the plot was the Master becoming the Doctor (with a possible redirect from The Master (The Power of the Doctor). It was still the Doctor's body and this incarnation repeatedly named himself the Doctor. I also think that there were hints of the Doctor deep inside the Master which is why he wanted to keep Yaz around. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 21:55, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Just seen that The Doctor (The Power of the Doctor) is currently being used for the Fourteenth Doctor. I don't particularly think that page needs the redirect and it would better fit this character's page. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 21:57, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Corrie, I agree that this approach is best. Seeing as it's an unused redirect, I think you should feel free to overwrite it. – n8 (☎) 22:29, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I've no strong feelings on what to call the current character we're discussing, being an American who has not yet seen the episode. But I agree that as of yet the redirect is not needed imo. It might eventually come to be the case that in retrospect that [certain actor who shall remain nameless] was really the 14th Doctor all along and Tennant is just a weird glitch and RtD was messing with us, so we should then rename things. But we can cross that bridge when we come to it. I'm in the "go ahead and overwrite" camp. Najawin ☎ 22:32, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I think it deserves a page - it's an incarnation of the Doctor, and the Master can't very well be placed under category:Incarnations of the Doctor. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 22:39, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Hey, so someone went and created The Master Doctor. I've now deleted it again, because this discussion is ongoing, T:BOUND is a thing, and anyway that's an unjustified conjectural title. Please do not attempt to create such a page until we're all agreed.

Once again I restate: insofar as the "Dhawan Doctor" is the Master possessing someone, he cannot, by policy, get his own page currently any more than the Tremas Master or the Bruce Master. Regardless of what we decide we want to do in the abstract. He cannot. We're not allowed. The most this debate could conclude is that we give him his own "main heading" on par with other incarnations of the Master, and pencil him off for splitting when we do properly split all the Masters. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:40, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The page deletion seems to be a typical example of one rule for one. A discussion was raised about the Fourteenth Doctor prior to that page being created but it wasn't deleted. Anyway, I created the page as The Master Doctor before seeing NB and Najawin's support for The Doctor (The Power of the Doctor). In my opinion the former would definetly be my preferred option. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 22:44, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

That discussion was concluded, by me, whereupon I created the page. The precedent there is overwhelming. We should call the new, numbered, TV Doctor what the BBC Who website calls them. Obviously we should. In contrast, as I said, even if the present talk page discussion comes to a consensus that he should be treated as his own thing, we cannot implement it. We cannot have a separate page about him right here and now. Not until we have Forums and split off all the other Masters. There is no actual policy-compliant way that this debate could authorise this page's creation currently. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Scrooge is technically correct. Master incarnations can't have their own pages as a matter of policy at this point. I actually wrote out my comment sans the last sentence and then modified it due to an edit conflict with Nate's, reading his. I didn't read Scrooge's. That's my bad. Najawin ☎ 22:49, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

To be fair, there's no rule stating an incarnation of the individual most commonly known as "the Doctor" who happens to look and act like the Master can't have their own page. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 22:50, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The loophole is quite blatantly here. This is not an incarnation of the Master. It is not a possession like the Tremas Master or the Bruce Master. This is far more a Christine Summerfield situation where the Doctor's body, or a clone of Chris Cwej in Christine's case, is implanted with the personality/memories of someone else. It is the Doctor, but with the thoughts and personality of the Master. That is the whole point. She wasn't possessed, she literally regenerated into a new evil counterpart with the Master's likeness.

As it is an incarnation of the Doctor not the Master there is no policy preventing us from giving them a page. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 22:55, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Mh. This is clever, but I really don't think this is correct. The Master's "soul" is very much being transferred from his original body into the regenerated Doctor here; and is then thrown back into his original one. Contrast Christine Summerfield who just existed concurrently with the Blonde Girl. It's the Master possessing an incarnation of the Doctor who looked like Dhawan, and… I guess you could argue the "Dhawan Doctor" whom we never really met because he was possessed by the Master the whole time could kind of deserve coverage as an incarnation of the Doctor in that sense, but his actions aren't his own. The biography stuff is the Master's. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:05, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I suppose it is a bit of an edge case, but we need him under "Incarnations of the Doctor", goddammit! Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:07, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Eh, even good categories can be removed, after all: "the big thing to understand about categories is that they are essentially organisational tools, not genuine content". If the only thing that it's causing problems here is the presence or lack of a single category, then let it be said: we don't need him under a category. So long as the content can be added to a page (and it can and is more logically placed on this - or any Spy Master page), we're just fine. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 23:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Scrooge, I think you have misinterpreted the episode.

If the Master was simply body-swapping, what would be the need for the whole forced regeneration? Cassandra did it to the Doctor with a simple psychograft. The Master transferred his entire personality and memories into the Doctor's newly regenerated form (leaving himself, for want of another word, a vegetable). The Master Doctor wasn't an incarnation of the Master, he was an incarnation of the Doctor with the Master's personality and memories (its the whole point of the scheme).

There was literally no possession in the episode, no mention of it, no nothing.DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:13, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, that's not the only reason, there's also him physically, you know, being an incarnation of the Doctor - it's just a reason. (response to Scrooge's prior comment) Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:14, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

User:DrWHOCorrieFan: "Transferring his entire personality and consciousness into the Doctor" is what I mean by "possession". I really don't understand what you're saying. We seem to be describing the same sequence of events: the Doctor force-regenerated the Doctor into a Sacha Dhawan body, then transferred his own soul into (i.e. possessed) that newly-regenerated body. So the "Master Doctor" is the spirit of the real Master going around possessing the body of the Doctor who's been force-regenerated to look like the Master. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:16, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Whatever subjective opinions any of us may have regarding "continuity of consciousness" or some such, looking at the language used in the episode, it's very clear that there is nothing about the character being a "regeneration/incarnation of the Master", and nothing about the character being "possession by the Master". As literally stated in the transcript, he is an incarnation of the Doctor. There's no reason for him not to be treated as such. – n8 (☎) 23:17, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing "subjective" about the continuity-of-consciousness thing. As DrWHOCorrieFan acknowledged, we are dealing with the Master temporarily transferring his essence into the Dhawan-Doctor, and then it being transferred back out again. There is never any doubt in dialogue that the character is the Master. Again, this feels a lot like wanting to cover information about Ainley's Master on Tremas. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:20, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

"Forced regeneration, Doctor. To force you... to regenerate... into me."

To me, at least, this very much reads as "forcing the Doctor to regenerate into this very individual/the Spy Master", not just "forcing the Doctor to regenerate into a body that looks like the Spy Master and then he goes into that body". Whatever the in-universe mechanics of it are, the Master "took over" the Doctor's body/lifespan, but very much kept on being himself for all intents and purposes.

I can't see the benefit of moving into a separate page (again, with the exception of adding a shiny category - which as presented above, is not and should not be the priority here. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 23:24, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I have the perfect comparison as to what happened in this episode; in Evolution of the Daleks the Doctor put himself in the way of the gamma strike and as such his personality was implanted into the Dalek-Human hybrids. This is exactly what happened here - the Master caused the Doctor to regenerate so that he could implant his personality and memories into the renewed body. If it was just a possession, why would there be a need for the entire forced regeneration? He'd have just possessed her, surely?

This was an evil incarnation of the Doctor with the Master's personality. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:29, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

By your logic @OncomingStorm12th every time a Cyberman states "you shall become like me" or "you shall become like us" they literally mean that they will physically become that exact Cyberman. The Master telling the Doctor he will force him "to regenerate... into me" is just him saying that he will share his personality and ideals, not that he will physically be him. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:34, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I'll be honest, this all reads very much as malicious compliance. The Master has taken over the Doctor's body, and left his old body behind AND he kept his face. This is no different from the series of Decayed Masters from Mastermind (audio story). It's not like the old body was still up and moving as its own individual entity, it was a husk. This is a classic case of body possession.

Say, in the world where we've finally separated all of the incarnations and Sacha Dhawan's Master is situated at Spy Master: Would it really be of use to have a separate page for the period of this story where he's taken over the Doctor's body? How would that help? We'd just have two different pages where the same information is explained TWICE. The Master ends up being forced back into his old body at the end, so the end of the story would still have to be explained on Spy Master and not the new page. What should we do when covering Power of the Doctor (TV story)? Cover it in a sentence, hyperlink over to a new page for another two sentences, and then cover the ending back on Spy Master?

In fact, we already have an example of this happening in a movie-length story: The Master (very briefly) takes over the Doctor's body in the TV Movie. We don't have a separate page for the Eric Roberts Doctor and the Paul McGann Master --and at least there they have different actors from their predecessors. To cover the Master's time occupying the Doctor's body, while still having the face of Sacha Dhawan and still having the memories and personality of the Sacha Dhawan Master and NONE of the Doctor's memories or personality, would be (1) disingenuous and (2) actively hostile to readers. I am strongly opposed to any coverage of the Master's stint in the Doctor's body on any location other than The Master or the proverbial Spy Master. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 23:37, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Scrooge, OS12th and NoNotTheMemes here. The Dhawan-Doctor is for all intents and purposes the Master. He's using the Doctor's body as a cruel joke, and shouldn't be considered a separate individual. Also, Corrie, your analogy makes no sense, because the Dalek hybrids aren't all incarnations of the Doctor! Chubby Potato ☎ 23:39, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

And to counter the notion that this is "an evil incarnation of the Doctor with the Master's personality" --notice how the Master's original body is lying limp in the tube? And how when the "Master Doctor" turns back into Whittaker, his essence returns back into the original body? And how the original body goes on and remembers all of that activity? It's very evident that this was fundamentally a body possession. It's written that way, it's performed that way. To characterize it otherwise is irresponsible. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 23:40, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

...And as such, they are a unique incarnation who never truly got to express their own personality or make their own choices - still a new incarnation with a forced appearance. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:43, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Nobody on the opposing side seems to be able to answer what the whole point of the regeneration scheme was if it was simply a possession? The Master transferred his memories/personality into the new Doctor - sacrificing himself - in order to make that incarnation an evil duplicate of himself thus tarnishing the Doctor's reputation. The Master was left as a husk as a result, lying in the tube, because he now had literally no essence as he'd transferred it to the new incarnation of the Doctor. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:46, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

But "the Master" is the essence. That's what 'essence' means. We don't care about the meat! Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I interpreted it that he took the Thirteenth Doctor's body, not the Doctor's body, if that makes sense.. Hence why she hasn't crossed the boundary and meets the Guardians of the Edge. As I see it Dhawan-Doctor is both the Master and 13, but not a different incarnation. Chubby Potato ☎ 23:50, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

@Chubby Potato so what would be the whole point of the regeneration and degeneration if it was the Thirteenth Doctor's body?

The Master took over people in The End of Time nobody here is arguing that there should be a page for Sylvia Master or Shaun Master, absolutely not. Because that was stated to be the Master possessing their bodies. This plot was the complete opposite and the Master Doctor was the Doctor with only the Master's personality/memories. That is literally the entire purpose of the scheme. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:53, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

That regeneration was the vessel through which he took over her body. I don't really see him as an "incarnation of the Doctor" but that's not to say I'd be opposed to treating it that way since there is a regeneration. But also, I think the return to Thirteen is just that, a degeneration (or retro-regeneration if you prefer) and not something like… well, what we see at the end of the episode. Chubby Potato ☎ 00:03, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

This is the very obvious solution: We cover the events of The Power of the Doctor (TV story) on Spy Master (for the meanwhile, The Master#As_the_Spy_Master). On the Doctor navbox, list the incarnation under "More ambiguous". There is absolutely no need to make a separate page for this.

There is absolutely no benefit of covering the twenty minutes of the story where the Master is occupying the Doctor's body on a separate page from the parts of the story that precede and succeed that time on separate pages --and if your counter is "Well what about categories" then I refer you to T:Don't over categorize --to make a separate page would embody the idea of focus on frivolity. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 00:09, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion regardless of whether you think the Master possessed the Doctor's new body or whether he transferred his likeness into it during the creation process (I still favour the latter) there can be no mistake that this was a new body and incarnation of the Doctor and therefore deserves a page of its own.

There is no current policy that should prevent this page's creation as it is a completely unique situation.

I would be open to having this page covered at The Doctor (The Power of the Doctor), however, I would seriously prefer The Master Doctor (but I think this is what the character will be referred to as by production/merchandise before long so we can change it then). The page should cover from the incarnation's regeneration to the degeneration - should it matter that it was only twenty minutes long as that is far longer than many characters get - with the Spy Master's page covering the entirety of the storyline. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 00:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that being his own incarnation is sufficient for a page, and as you say, this is a special case. The Master remembers being in the other body when put back in his dying Rasputin body. What meaningful content is there to cover on a separate page that wouldn't just be covered on Spy Master? Chubby Potato ☎ 00:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm honestly at my wit's ends here. I don't remotely know how to reply to a statement like "only the Master's personality/memories". That's what personhood is! What else does it mean to "be the Master" than to be the current iteration fo the Master's personality, in possession of all his memories? It can't be about corporeal continuity. The Master's soul has hopped from possessed body to possessed body a whole bunch of times, not to mention been destroyed and resurrected at least twice. "The Master's personality and memories" in a new body is "the Master", all the more unquestionably so when there's no other instantiation of the same running around at the same time to create a fork, which, in this case, there isn't: the Rasputin Master and Doctor Master never coexist as conscious beings and their memories don't diverge.

In all senses except… medical, I guess, this is the Master. If we insist on treating him as his own incarnation, "the Doctor Master" would sooner work than "the Master Doctor". This isn't "a version of the Doctor who looks like the Master", it's "a version of the Master who came into existence by highjacking the Doctor's meat suit". Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 00:25, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Earlier today, before I even knew this would be a discussion, I created several pages Christine I, Christine II and Christine IV. All of these characters are completely different characters to (as you yourself stated) the definitive Christine Summerfield despite them all being inserted with the same individual's memories/personality at birth. This is in complete contrast to say the Master taking over the entire population in The End of Time, he was all of those duplicates.

This Doctor/Master example fits more with the Christine version than the earlier Master plot. The Master inserted his own memories and personality into the Doctor's new incarnation at their creation, creating a villainous new entity that was the Doctor but still shared the ideals and goals with the Master. This being couldn't possible be the exact same character as the Master, not only were they biologically different but they also had a mixture of the Doctor's personality/memories too as it wasn't a complete possession/takeover. This can be seen when the Master falters several times in regards to Yaz and wants to keep her around rather than killing her as the Master has so freely done to the Doctor's other companions, this shows that the Doctor/Master incarnation is a new being. An amalgamation of them both, but only an incarnation of the Doctor. The Master sacrificed himself and without his being he's an empty husk until it is reversed and he receives his personality back.

If it was a simple possession/take over I would agree with you that there was no different in the characters. But this was an amalgamation of the Doctor's body and personality with the Master's. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 00:36, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah. I better see what you mean. If I agreed that the Dhawan-Doctor-Master's behaviour evidenced a mix of their two personalities, I might well agree to giving him his own page; but that's not how I interpreted the episode at all. His hesitation to kill Yaz just seemed to be a product of wanting desperately to continue his Doctor role-play with the actual companion; a unique toy he doesn't want to break just yet. Perhaps even some amount of mercy the Master still has within his personality from his Missy days, much as he wants to deny it. I didn't see any smoking guns that the Doctor's personality had influenced the mix at all. Curious what other people think. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 00:39, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with Scrooge's above comment. It's not exactly right to consider him an "incarnation of the Doctor" anyway because the Doctor isn't there. The Thirteenth Doctor is in her psyche with the Guardians of the Edge, I don't think any part of the Doctor was part of this incarnation. The Doctor as a person did not get a new incarnation. If anything he's an incarnation of the Master, but again, I don't think he is meaningfully distinct from the Spy Master. When I say that, I mean not only in-universe, but in terms of having a separate page. Having the wiki be understandable and cohesive is more important than creating a page just because we technically can (similar to the categories argument in the beginning of this discussion). Chubby Potato ☎ 00:42, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Surely reaability is improved by accuracy? Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 11:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

For those that are operating under the notion that we shouldn't treat this as a possession --the story does everything it can to treat this as a possession short of the Master proclaiming "I'm going to possess your body, Doctor!":

1. The Master doesn't have the Doctor's memories (as evidenced with his interaction with the Fugitive Doctor and Vinder);

2. The Master actively has the memories and intents of the Spy Master (as evidenced by him returning to the Master's Dalek Plan and using the volcanos); and,

3. The Master is able to be placed back into his old body (as evidenced by "Don't let me go back to being me.")

This should be treated in the same way that we treat the Master's many bodily possessions. Here is the schema that I propose and I believe has the most support:

The Master's brief stint in the Doctor's body should be covered under Spy Master (and, until we properly split, the Spy Master, the [Thirteenth Doctor]], the Doctors info box, and under “a day to come” on Fourteenth Doctor.NoNotTheMemes ☎ 14:47, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

None of these points are slam dunks against non-possession perspectives.

1. The Master doesn't have the 13th Doctor's memories because she hadn't passed the Guardians of the Edge to be subsumed into the new Master-Doctor's subconscious.
2. It makes sense that, using technology specifically identified in the episode as Gallifreyan regeneration tech, the Master would be able to engineer the Doctor's regeneration to match his appearance and intent.
3. Yes, no matter the interpretation, that's an accurate description of what it was like for the process to be reversed.

– n8 (☎) 15:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

With my birds' eye view of online discussion, I can see at least three widely attested interpretations of what the Master did to the Doctor in The Power of the Doctor:

1. the Master's consciousness possessed the body of a new incarnation of the Doctor that looked just like the Master;
2. the Master possessed the Doctor in a super weird way so she looked like him, without regeneration being involved; or
3. the Doctor and the Master amalgamated in a way that does not easily fit the "possession" framing.

Some of these are based on well-known patterns of the Master's behavior across prior stories and incarnations; others are based solely on the episode, and its consistent description and depiction of the Doctor's transformation as somehow regenerative. Personally, I'm not interested in debating which of these perspectives is "the truth", but I trust that any individual of sufficient good faith can understand how all three capably describe the episode's ambiguities.

Reading through this conversation, there seem to be two paths here:

• the path of single perspective, where we argue for ages with the goal of ultimately concluding "This is possession, plain and simple, and you're wrong for thinking otherwise" (or similar).
• the path of mutual accomodation, where we say "It's unclear whether this is possession or a new Doctor incarnation etc, so let's mirror that in our coverage and create a page where we can reflect all options."

While not detracting from The Master (or some future Dhawan incarnation page) in any way, a separate page would give us the place to better represent the ambiguity of the episode. There are several other advantages as well: since it will equally represent the perspective that this is a new Doctor incarnation, it can be a separate page from The Master, providing a dedicated place to discuss the Master-Doctor's actions, clothes, behind the scenes, and (for futureproofing purposes) any potential future appearances; additionally, it'll allow us to cover the perspective that this is an incarnation of the Doctor without putting The Master (or some future Dhawan incarnation page) in Category:Incarnations of the Doctor, which would otherwise be misleading to readers unfamiliar with this story.

Let's move on from this debate before it grows any longer and choose the compromise path that allows us to retain our individual understandings. – n8 (☎) 15:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure anyone was contending your #2 — just contending #1 and saying "and therefore, while very technically a new Dhawan-like incarnation of the Doctor was involved in the process, it wouldn't be practical to try to cover him that way". I think we're dealing with disagreements about how to treat a given scenario, as much as disagreement about what happens. The way I see it, there are two premises, each with multiple lines of thought about how to Wikify if this premise is true.

"Premise A" is "the Master's consciousness possessed the body of a new incarnation of the Doctor that was forced to look just like the Master".

Within Premise A, some people:

#1: think that the resultant being is ontologically still "the Doctor" because that's who they are bodily, even if the Master's personality and memories are at the command chair, and therefore think that this Doctor whose personality happens to be Masterlike should be given his own Doctor page.

#2: think that the resultant being is ontologically "the Master" even if their current body originated as a regeneration of the Thirteenth Doctor's; indeed they shouldn't technically be considered an "Incarnation of the Doctor" at all, because the spirit of the Doctor is not in fact incarnate within that body.

#3: think the same as #2 but that the Dhawan Doctor still deserves his own page as an entity distinct from "the Master possessing the Dhawan Doctor", even if his "true" personality was never expressed.

"Premise B" is "the Doctor and the Master amalgamated into a composite beings whose personality, and not just body, includes traces of both; therefore he's his own entity like e.g. the DoctorDonna" even if his existence is temporary". If this premise were to be granted, a page about him would be a shoe-in, although there would be lingering debate about quite how to name and categorise it.

For example, within this breakdown: I think Premise B is factually incorrect; I think Permise A is factually correct; I believe that Courses of Action A2 and A3 are both acceptable. Proponents of A1 have a philosophical, and aesthetic, disagreement with me; a semantic disagreement, even, about what we mean by "identity" and "the Master" and "possession"; but not a factual disagreement about what occurs in-universe, let alone what occurs on-screen in the episode. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 16:10, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I was describing views I've seen around the web, not just on the wiki, but okay, let's roll with your schema. If we were to accept that Premise A is factually correct, and that the only separation between Courses A1, A2, and A3 is "philosophical", "aesthetic", and/or "semantic" – why on earth would we as a wiki pick a side on "philosophy" and "aesthetics" at all? Why not simply assert Premise A and give equal airtime to perspectives A1-A3 equally, on a page where there's room to do such a thing? A2 can still be expressed on The Master as its supporters wish, while giving cursory lip-service (and a link) to the others on the separate page. – n8 (☎) 16:26, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Deciding whether or not to cover the actions of the Spy Master while occupying the Doctor's body under the Spy Master or a new Master Doctor page is not a matter of picking a side on philosophy and aesthetics. In fact, if we assume Premise A is correct (which it is), then there is fundamentally no circumstance in which this characters actions would not be required to be covered under the Spy Master. Tardis Wiki has already picked a side on the philosophy of "Who is responsible for the actions of the body": Coverage has historically followed the mind, not the appendages. As I have frequently cited, we do not cover the War Master's possession of the Eighth Doctor in The Cognition Shift under Eighth Doctor, we cover it under the War Master.

A1 has never been followed by Tardis Wiki (or at least not in any case that I can recall). If we are to treat A1 as a valid reason to create a new page to cover the Master's stint in the Doctor's body, then every instance of a bodyswap would predicate at minimum coverage of everything done by the hijacker on the hijackee's page.

A3 is entirely rooted in conjecture about a hypothetical personality, but EVEN IF we take that conjecture as fact it would still result in his brief tenure being covered in its entirety under the Spy Master and not Master Doctor. The Master Doctor's body was being hijacked by the Spy Master and thus coverage would be handled under the Spy Master. This would mean we're creating a page that CANNOT COVER the events of The Power of the Doctor, because Tardis Wiki policy has maintained that coverage follows the mind, not the body and the proverbial 'Doctor Master' didn't do those things, the Spy Master did while piloting his body.

Under Tardis Wiki precedent, the actions taken by the Master during his stint in the Doctor's body must be covered on the Spy Master. To do otherwise would contradict ages of precedent regarding body swaps and possessions. So the ultimate question is: "Should we create a Master Doctor page to cover the Doctor that could theoretically exist underneath that possession?" The answer to that question should rather summarily be "No." Tardis Wiki policy is 'every unique noun mentioned in a valid source can have an article written about it' --but there is no unique noun here. The proverbial Master Doctor is an entity of conjecture, as their entire tenure was spent under the possession of the Spy Master. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 16:56, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I think, and I mean no ill will toward Mr. Bumber (and I believe that they know that) so please don't take this as a slight against him, that his previous post is a mischaracterization of the argument. Similarly, I believe acting as if all three interpretations posed in his response are not only equally held by the audience, but equally valid interpretations of the text, is irresponsible and not reflective of the story being told. We don't need to accommodate every wikification viewpoint --just because there are people that would argue that we need a separate page for every person transformed into the Saxon Master during End of Time doesn't mean we should accommodate it. By virtue of my anorak tendencies, I've decided to write up my position and argument in a format that I believe would be most easily understood:

The Master's activities while hijacking the Doctor's body in The Power of the Doctor should be covered on the Spy Master rather than on a separate page. When determining coverage for stolen bodies, the primary inquiry is whether the new body resembles the previous body and how soon they revert back to their previous body. See Mastermind (wherein the Beevers!Master uses the Deathworm Morphant to possess Don Maestro and Michael Maestro, each of which transform to resemble the Beevers!Master and is left behind for the next body jump). When the Master possesses a new body, his personality is sometimes influenced by that of the body he has possessed. See e.g., Masterful (wherein the Thirteenth Master’s various possessed bodies display different personalities despite being the same incarnation [I can see Scrooge seething, but everybody knows what I mean here]). When determining which individual a body’s actions should be attributed to, the primary inquiry is who is in control of the body. See Keeper of Traken et al. (wherein the Tremas Master’s actions are covered under The Master [specifically under the Tremas Master] rather than Tremas); First Frontier (holding that, in an instance where the Tremas body regenerates into a body resembling Basil Rathbone, the resultant character is covered under The Master [and specifically Template:Tzun] rather than under Tremas because the Master is in control). See also The Cognition Shift (holding that the War Master’s actions while possessing the Eighth Doctor’s body are covered on the War Master rather than Eighth Doctor because the person in control of the Eighth Doctor’s body has the memories and personality of the War Master rather than the Eighth Doctor); TV Movie (holding that the brief moments wherein the Bruce Master transforms into the Eighth Doctor should be covered on the Bruce Master rather than Eighth Doctor or on a new page).

Here, like in Mastermind, the Spy Master uses special tools (here Time Lord technology and there the Deathworm Morphant) to leave his own body and possess a new body (here the Thirteenth Doctor’s body and there Don Maestro and Michael Maestro, et al.), only for it to transform to resemble his true body (here the face of Sacha Dhawan and there Geoffrey Beevers). Here, like in The Cognition Shift, the “New” Master maintains the memories and personality of the Spy Master rather than the Thirteenth Doctor. He continues on with the plans laid out by the Spy Master (which were unknown to the Thirteenth Doctor) and did not recognize the Fugitive Doctor (whom the Thirteenth Doctor has met on numerous occasions now). Similarly, like in the TV Movie, the “New” Master (here, the Dhawan Doctor Master and there the McGann Doctor Master) is very quickly returned back to his actual body. See The Power of the Doctor ("Don't let me go back to being me.").

While some may argue that the “New” Master is somehow an "amalgam of the Doctor and the Master", I do not believe this holds much weight nor does it change my conclusion. For starters, I find the evidence that he has in any way changed upon taking the Doctor's body to be dubious at best. The narrative seeks to demonstrate that, even if the Master is in the Doctor’s body, he is still behaving like the Master. Compare The Power of the Doctor (“I am the Doctor, and you will obey me”) with The Power of the Doctor, Spyfall, Terror of the Autons, et al. (“I am the Master, and you will obey me”). The Doctor’s companion, Yaz, rejects the notion that he is the Doctor. See also The Power of the Doctor (“You're not the Doctor. You'll never be the Doctor [...]”). Even if his personality had shifted, Sacha Dhawan describes his Master “...wearing a mask” and as a “sad clown [who] gets a real excitement and joy by wearing different masks” and that his time as ‘the Doctor’ was an example of his Master “wearing a mask.” See Behind the Regeneration (9:00-12:00). Also noteworthy, the Spy Master imitating the Doctor is done not only prior to him taking over her body in this story (taking on the Daleks and the Cybermen as his “fam”) but throughout his tenure (his costumes being designed to imitate Doctor-ish costumes. Previous incarnations of the Master have similarly taken on companions and worn costumes intentionally meant to mimic the Doctor’s. See e.g., World Enough and Time; The Doctor Falls; The Magician’s Apprentice; Witch’s Familiar; Only the Good; UNIT: Dominion. In this instance, like in previous instances, this was for the purpose of mocking the Doctor. In fact, the Spy Master’s desire to take the Doctor’s name solely for the purpose of dragging it through the mud is explicit in text. Id. (“...while I tarnish the name of the Doctor. I’m going to make the Doctor a byward for fear, pain and destruction, so when people hear that name in future, they quake in fear.” If this incarnation was meant to legitimately consider themselves the Doctor, they wouldn’t refer to the Doctor as if they were someone else that they wanted to drag through the mud.

Finally, coverage on the Spy Master rather than a new page is better for readers. If split, this would generate either (1) two much less clear pages or (2) one new page that is all but identical to a section of a page that already exists. While, under Wiki policy, “[e]very unique noun [...] that can be wikified should be wikified”, this is not a unique noun. This is the Spy Master, possessing the Doctor’s body, telling his allies from prior to stealing the body to go forward with the plan he made prior to stealing the Doctor’s body gloating for a bit, being abandoned by Yaz, before being forced back into his old body. All of that information not only *should* be covered by the Spy Master, but will *have* to be covered under the Spy Master. If implemented under a

Main article: [[{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] schema, as proposed by the opposition, the page will still have to explain the events wherein he was possessing the Doctor’s body because (1) he’s still the Master and individual incarnations of the Master have yet to be split and (2) even if the Master-split has been conducted, the actions taken by the “New” Master/Doctor will have to be summarized in between the sentences “The Master uses Time Lord technology to force the Doctor to become him” and “Yaz, Vinder, and the Hologram-Doctor force the Master back into his own body.”

For these reasons, I believe it is most appropriate to cover the Master’s brief stint controlling the Doctor’s body on the Spy Master rather than as a new page, with reference on The Doctor, the Thirteenth Doctor, the Doctors info box, and under “a day to come” on Fourteenth Doctor. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 16:20, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

And to glom onto Scrooge's structure of argument, because I think it is a very compelling structure:

A1: Separating them based on this position does not reflect Wiki precedent, as demonstrated through its treatment of the Doctor and the Master during *The Cognition Shift*, *The Switching*, and the end of the TV Movie.

A2: This is the position I take, rooted in the previous precedent alongside the treatment of the Tremas Master as the Master rather than as Tremas or the Bruce Master as the Master rather than as Bruce.

A3: I don't believe this one is convincing, and I look to the treatment of the Don Maestro and Michael Maestro bodies in *Mastermind* as part of the Decayed Master's tenure rather than as separate tenures.

B: I agree with Scrooge, this is not reflected in the text, as I have outlined above. Premise B has also been outwardly rejected by Sacha Dhawan himself in the interview seen in "Behind the Regeneration" --his tenure play-acting as 'the Doctor' was just that: his Master parading about in a mask because he gets a "real excitement and joy" out of it.

NoNotTheMemes ☎ 16:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Lengthy though your argument may be, I do not find it convincing, and it contains so many unjustified sweeping statements and smuggled assumptions that it would take me thousands of words to unpack. As a brief example, you say

“...while I tarnish the name of the Doctor. I’m going to make the Doctor a byward for fear, pain and destruction, so when people hear that name in future, they quake in fear.” If this incarnation was meant to legitimately consider themselves the Doctor, they wouldn’t refer to the Doctor as if they were someone else that they wanted to drag through the mud.

But this can be trivially easily explained with even a shallow attempt to understand the other point(s) of view: just see the coverage of The Power of the Doctor on The Doctor (title) already. The statement is no harder to understand than if a President said, "I will tarnish the name of the President. I'm going to make 'the President' a byword for fear, pain and destruction" etc – this might make them a bad President, in my opinion, but it would not necessarily make them an illegitimate one.

As I wrote earlier, there are valid perspectives rooted in past stories, as you've nicely illustrated; and this fact detracts nothing from other perspectives rooted in The Power of the Doctor itself, which repeatedly uses regeneration terminology to describe the Doctor's transformation (another major point which in my opinion you didn't adequately address). But the idea of debating these perspectives on a wiki talk page is not only unproductive, it's actively mind-numbing – Sisyphean, even! – and in my opinion we should take a long, hard look at any policy or precedent that might encourage or force us to undergo such a thing.

I move, again, that we dispense with this picking and nitpicking between interpretations and philosophies and simply cover the topic neutrally, on its own page, where there's room to present the multiple points of view. – n8 (☎) 16:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Let me add that I sincerely thank you for your reassurances regarding absence of ill will; I don't take anything said in debate personally, but perhaps I too readily assume that others share in this approach. Let nothing said above detract anything from my high respect for Mr NoNotTheMemes; I will never match his knowledge of the Master's history and character! – n8 (☎) 16:52, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

We could always footnote + behind the scenes it? Along with also mentioning that the leak said something about, what was it, "metaphysically blurring the lines"? That seems to be in accordance with our War Chief "precedent". :> Najawin ☎ 19:06, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Short of some major revelation, this is the last I'll say on the matter.

I take it that the main contention from Nate and his camp is that "he comes across as a Hybrid figure because there are both lines that show it's a possession and the obvious on-screen fact that it's a regeneration and should count as a Doctor"

We already have precedent that establishes that, when possession+regeneration occurs, it's still a matter of who is in control.

The Master's plot in The Power of the Doctor is most similar to Rassilon's resurrection in *Desperate Measures*. In Desperate Measures, Rassilon's consciousness, previously held within the Matrix, is removed from the Matrix and uploaded into the Time Lord Valerian (as portrayed by David Sibley). This resulted in the Sibley body regenerating into Terrence Hardiman's Rassilon. At no point did Sibley portray Rassilon and at no point did Hardiman portray Valerian. Tardis Wiki has covered the Hardiman!Rassilon as an incarnation of Rassilon, rather than as an incarnation of the Doctor --despite the body that regenerated into Hardiman!Rassilon being an incarnation of Valerian --because Rassilon is in charge of the body.

Here, the Master's consciousness, previously held within the Spy Master, is removed from his body and uploaded into the Doctor (as portrayed by Jodie Whittaker). This resulted in the Whittaker body regenerating into Sacha Dhawan's Master. At no point did Whittaker portray the Master and at no point did Dhawan portray the Doctor. Whether the consciousness of the Doctor lingers on is inconsequential, as previous stories (and The Power of the Doctor) indicate that previous incarnations of a Time Lord linger on inside their mind. If that's the case, Valerian's consciousness is still lingering on inside of the Hardiman!Rassilon --but that doesn't change that he's an incarnation of Rassilon. Where The Power of the Doctor differs from *Desperate Measures* is that the hijacker is eventually purged from his body and returned to their original body --which only further strengthens the notion that the incarnation is not distinct. If Tardis Wiki holds that Hardiman!Rassilon is an incarnation of Rassilon to be covered on Rassilon's page and counts as an incarnation of Rassilon rather than Valerian, then it has to cover the Dhawan!Master!Doctor on the Master's page and counts as an incarnation of the Master.

Obviously there are differences, namely that Valerian only had one incarnation before being, to use the term from the audio, "overwritten" by Rassilon. Thus, there's no infobox or category for him. Likewise, the previous Rassilon (to our knowledge) didn't look like Terrence Hardiman. While this is hardly some slamdunk, we do know that the reason why it's Hardiman rather than Don Warrington was due to a lack of availability on Warrington's end. But if we are to use that as the line of distinction, that would create another Sacha Dhawan incarnation of the Master, not a Sacha Dhawan incarnation of the Doctor. And if THAT is the case, I would cite the absence of a new "pages" for the Don Maestro and Michael Maestro or pages for the post-Stolen Earth Tenth Doctor.

I am hopeful that this is enough to resolve the debate, and with it I would like to move to limit the documentation of all of the Master's actions in The Power of the Doctor to the Spy Master and the A day to come section of Fourteenth Doctor. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 20:01, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

If this goes forward, will this incarnation also gets added to timeline theory in Timey-Wimey detector Drjohnbazilsmith 18:12 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Can I just point out that I don't consider this to be resolved, and I personally think that @n8 came up with the best solution which was to cover this incarnation on a neutral page where the two (clearly divided) interpretations can be fleshed out in detail with evidence and explanations. As this is an incarnation of the Doctor's regeneration cycle (if not the Doctor himself as some are arguing) this should be enough of a loophole to bypass any potential T:BOUND concerns as we're not strictly just giving a separate page to a Master incarnation. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 19:53, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Corrie, if you don't think that the literal treatise above resolves things, what parts of the argument above do you disagree with or take issue with? Making a page, in spite of all of the precedent cited, simply because of a desire to make the page, would be in violation of T:BOUND. The fact that "this is an incarnation of the Doctor's regeneration cycle" is irrelevant. As stated above, Terrence Hardiman's Rassilon is an incarnation of Valerian's regeneration cycle, but that doesn't make him NOT an incarnation of Rassilon. That also says nothing about our precedent regarding the treatment of body-hijackings that is also discussed en-length above --which would clearly limit the coverage on this proposed new page and still result in the information of the story being covered here on the Spy Master.

I also think that if you have to characterize it as a "loophole", you've already conceded that to create a new page WOULD be in violation of precedent --so if that's the case, we're arguing to a point of what good would making a new page do? As I've pointed out above, coverage on a new page would do nothing but either (1) re-state information verbatim that will have to be covered on the Spy Master or (2) cover no information beyond conjecture? NoNotTheMemes ☎ 18:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

NoNotTheMemes, we can't just go round in circles forever with you repeatedly going over arguments people have already made. You ended your last comment saying that you hoped it resolved the matter, I just wanted to point out that I did not consider it resolved but it doesn't mean that I am willing to continue a discussion that isn't progressing any further. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 18:06, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

You're correct, we shouldn't go around in circles, which is why I'm asking you to articulate WHY you don't consider the matter is resolved. I've outlined why N8's solution would (1) break specific policy, (2) ignore precedent, and (3) not be helpful for readers. If you don't think that those three reasons aren't enough to resolve the matter, then please articulate a response beyond "I don't like it" or wait until somebody has found a failing within my argument or a reason to otherwise disregard it. I do hope I'm not coming across as rude, tone is very hard to convey over text (particularly when you are also trying to make an argument at the same time) so I just want to make it clear I hold no ill will. All I want is for the substance of the argument to be addressed rather than ignored out of hand because of a predisposition toward making new pages for the sake of it. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 18:35, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Memes, the length of your "treatise" has no bearing on its accuracy. Your Valerian example may be better than your previous comparisons, but it still falls far short of a slam dunk: the fact that Hardiman!Rassilon never waltzes around pointedly calling himself Valerian makes all the difference!

You cite precedent, so here's one to chew on: there is zero precedent for not creating a new page for a new incarnation of the Doctor – and you have repeatedly conceded that the Dhawan Doctor does come into existence through the Doctor's regeneration into a new incarnation; it's just an incarnation which you feel doesn't deserve coverage. Maybe it's true that, for Master timeline addicts like yourself and Scrooge MacDuck, the Master incarnation perspective is the only one that matters – but I would say that the Doctor incarnation perspective is at least equally important. (This is a Doctor Who wiki, after all.)

To rewind to before your "treatises", Scrooge had explained the current impasse as a conflict between two different "philosophies": one that I deem the "Master incarnation focus", which demands that Dhawan!14 be covered on the same page as the Dhawan Master, per Tardis:The Master; and one that I deem the "Doctor incarnation focus", which demands that a new incarnation of the Doctor be covered on a new page, per universal precedent and the long-understood implications of Tardis:Doctors. These demands are not mutually exclusive! As lengthily as you may disagree, there's nothing stopping us from covering Dhawan!Doctor on the Dhawan Master's page as you wish, as well as on a separate Doctor incarnation page. This approach which would compromise neither philosophy nor general readability. And this proposal remains the only solution which accomodates both perspectives and satisfies both policy and precedent! – n8 (☎) 18:42, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Again, @n8 puts it into far better words that I could have.

Can I also point out the additions I made to The Doctor (Contents) could also be noted on a separate page directly focusing on this Doctor/Master incarnation. Whereas this information wouldn't really fit anywhere on the current Master page we have now. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 18:51, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

If I understand Nate's argument properly, he believes that the coverage of this "MasterDoctor" should follow the rule of Tardis:Doctors, referencing the DoctorDonna and the Meta-Crisis Doctor as precedent of not-Doctors who result from the regeneration of the Doctor rather than the rule of Tardis:The Master. However, these instances are distinct from the case before us today. The rule of Tardis:Doctors applies to coverage of the Doctor. Notice how the Tenth Doctor page covers Cassandra's possession of his body? But I can distance this from possession, if that suits your fancy. I won't go over Valerian/Rassilon again for everyone's sanity.

Even ignoring the fact that the creation of The DoctorDonna as a separate page from Donna Noble was contrary to all who weighed in on their respective talk pages, this is still an instance of the Doctor's mind being pressed into another being. The DoctorDonna is a result of the Doctor's consciousness being applied onto the body of Donna Noble, whereas the purported MasterDoctor is a result of the Master's consciousness being applied onto the body of the Doctor. As explained previously, coverage follows the mind and not the body. The Doctor's mind is put into a new body (Donna) and thus T:DOCTORS applies and coverage follows to the new Donna-shaped incarnation of the Doctor, whereas in our case the Master's mind is put into a new body (the Doctor's body) and thus T:MASTER applies and coverage follows to the new Doctor-but-still-Dhawan-shaped incarnation of the Master. This analogy would similarly apply under the situation of the Meta-Crisis Doctor: the Tenth Doctor's mind is put into a new body (the hand) and thus T:DOCTORS applies and coverage follows to the new Handy-shaped incarnation of the Doctor. If coverage follows the mind and not the body, as our precedent has indicated, then the "MasterDoctor" is still an incarnation of the Master and thus should be covered under a subheading of the Spy Master. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 19:42, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I again suggest that we sort of already have precedent for highly contested information between two opposing philosophies, specifically in regards to this page? I don't see why a footnote in this incident isn't a suitable middle ground. It's neither precedent breaking in the way Scrooge and NNtM care about and actually addresses the contentions that Nate and Corrie think exist. The only objection against it is that the supposed neutrality between ideas would demand that this topic have its own page in the first place, but this just doesn't correspond with precedent, so I don't think it's going to be successful as an argument. Najawin ☎ 19:06, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree that a footnote will be needed either way, but I don't understand your remark regarding how my proposal "doesn't correspond with precedent". Maybe it would help to think of The Doctor (The Power of the Doctor) as an "in-universe disambiguation page" like Time Lord messenger (Genesis of the Daleks), covering the ambiguity and linking to the relevant portion of the Spy Master's page?

I don't really understand the focus on Master incarnation precedent when mountains of Doctor incarnation precedent is right there. After all, if Tardis:The Master's ban on page splits really becomes the deciding factor, I do hope that everyone's ready for this conversation to restart once that policy inevitably changes! – n8 (☎) 19:35, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

@Najawin, I personally like footnotes in theory, but User:Shambala108 has very much contended in the past that they ought not to be written/used in an in-universe context. They're their own kettle of timewyrms. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 19:38, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Two things, @N8. One: How do you not understand the "focus on Master incarnation precedent"? As we've noted, both in-universe and out-of-universe statements indicate he is the Master, even if he is an "incarnation of the Doctor". Two: Even looking to the "mountains of Doctor incarnation precedent" works in our favor, as described above with the DoctorDonna and the Meta-Crisis Doctors. Just because one area of precedent is more explicitly against your position that doesn't mean that it's invalid --nor does it make the Doctor side of precedent reflect your position! The DoctorDonna is a continuity of the Doctor's consciousness in Donna's body, the Meta-Crisis Doctor is a continuity of the Doctor's consciousness in the handy-extra-hand. The MasterDoctor is a continuity of the Master's consciousness in the Doctor's body. You have yet to find a lick of compelling precedent that reflects your position, you just keep on waving your hand in the general direction of precedent and saying it sides with you.NoNotTheMemes ☎ 15:58, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Memes � what are you on about now? You seem to have just spelled out how this situation is exactly analogous to the DoctorDonna and Metacrisis, so since we do have pages for the DoctorDonna and Metacrisis, therefore by precedent –

precedent (n) "an earlier event or action that is regarded [as you're doing now] as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances"

– the Dhawan Doctor should have his own page. Gawp at the talk pages all you'd like, but we're T:BOUND by current policy, not unresolved talk page proposals. Thank you for proving my point completely, I guess!

Haven't you and I both agreed to a compromise already? (And Scrooge, and Liria, and Najawin, and Bongo50, and 66 Seconds, and via "bowing out", Corrie?) What's the point of this, then? It's bumping up against the edges of T:DISCUSS at this point. – n8 (☎) 18:45, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Ignoring the condescending tone of "what are you on about now?" and the condescending nature of defining the word "precedent" to me, if you actually read my message, I described how it is SIMILAR to the DoctorDonna and the Meta-Crisis Doctor, and then explained how where it's similarity ENDS is why it is placed under Tardis:The Master rather than Tardis: DOCTORS: The Doctor's mind is what went into handy Mr. Hand and Donna Noble, so they follow our Tardis: DOCTORS precedent. The Master's mind is what went into the Doctor, so he should follow Tardis:The Master. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 19:24, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Woah. Tones seem to be rising again. Nate, there's something of a condescending tone to your message above — "thank you for proving my point completely, I guess!", the emoji — which I really don't think is productive in a debate like this. (Though in turn, NoNotTheMemes, please try and avoid all-caps for emphasis and other manifestations of anger.) If you must keep discussing the pre-Compromise questions, all, please do so in a mutually-respectful, reasonable fashion. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 19:33, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Fair shout - I definitely see how I could have written that in a way that came across as less catty. What I intended as a jokey riposte to lines like "keep on waving your hand" came across as anything but. Mea culpa, and apologies for the unintended offense! I'll take some of my own advice and step back from this debate. – n8 (☎) 21:47, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Towards a compromise

I think we will not get anywhere trying to convince each other that the other's way is best. I think this is a situation that deals for a meet-in-the-middle, compromise solution.

There is significant sentiment that the "Dhawan Doctor"'s history, appearance and significance should be discussed on their own page, separately from our coverage of the Spy Master and the Thirteenth Doctor. However, there is also significant sentiment that it would be wrong to characterise him as a person separate from the Spy Master, or as precisely "an incarnation of the Doctor". I am not here to litigate which sentiment is correct on the latter front: I don't think we all will ever reach a consensus on that without further evidence. We could be here all week arguing about whether the Doctor-Master is more like the DoctorDonna or more like the Metacrisis Doctor and we would, in all likelihood, still get nowhere.

Instead, I propose that, in line with something like Bad Wolf (entity) or pages about aliases like Harold Saxon, we create a page describing the nature and short existence of the Dhawan-Doctor-Master entity, structured as a page about a phenomenon more than a page about a character. It should not use {{Infobox Individual}}, and will be placed in neither Category:Incarnations of the Doctor nor an eventual Category:Incarnations of the Master, but it will be placed in Category:The Doctor and Category:The Master. Both Thirteenth Doctor and Spy Master should summarise the events surrounding the Dhawan-Doctor-Master in similar, sparse details, and use a {{main}} template to the page about the incident, similar to links to Exile on Earth or The Master's early life.

I don't want this to quite be a Proper Admin Conclusion That Ends Discussion, though; first because I was sufficiently involved in the debate that I don't feel quite right fully closing it on my own; and second, because there remains a teeny tiny problem in my foolproof conclusion: the page name. A page about "the Master Doctor" would give people the wrong idea, and it's a fan-generated nickname in any case, not backed up, to date, by any licensed sources. But I no longer believe that covering it at The Master's Dalek Plan is the right move; the plan has too many moving parts not really directly relevant to the entity itself. I am tempted by the name Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration, which could describe both the incident and the "individual" depending on how you look at it.

Thoughts, anyone? Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 19:38, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

No {{Infobox Individual}} or Category:Incarnations of the Doctor is uncomfortable to me. But isn't that what all good compromises feel like? For the sake of resolution, I can bring myself to agree with this proposal. – n8 (☎) 19:48, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Okay so before I address the substance here, I do want to note that the DoctorDonna and the Meta-Crisis Doctor are both covered under the same principle and that the treatment of "the Master Doctor", if predicated on their treatment, would not count as an incarnation of the Doctor --as described above.

That said, I would be comfortable with adapting what is described above PROVIDED that it is re-litigated when The Master page has been split into incarnations, a change that has been on the docket for ages. Once the Master is split and Spy Master is created, I see no reason why Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration need to exist as a page, distinct from its coverage on Thirteenth Doctor and Spy Master. You know what I mean? NoNotTheMemes ☎ 19:54, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Considering how thorny this discussion can be, and how it is rather clear that deciding definitely one way or another is, I think impossible, this is a good compromise that both sides would be happy with. I think this is a good proposal. I especially like the name, and I feel that if we must have a separate page for this, then this is the best way to do it. Liria10 ☎ 19:56, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree that this discussion is obviously due to be relitigated when the Master page split happens. Until then, this compromise, if there is to be a separate page, seems acceptable. Najawin ☎ 20:00, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I would prefer for the page to have Category:Incarnations of the Doctor (and, in future, Category:Incarnations of the Master) but the sake of a compromise, I like this proposal. Bongo50 ☎ 20:03, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

(Unrelated, real quick question, but without a forum there's no real place to ask it. Do y'all remember Czech saying we were affiliated with BBCA in some way? I recall a forum post about our main page redesign having delays because BBCA having to approve our redesign because we were affiliated with them. Obviously I can't view that post. So I'm not sure if I'm just insane and remembering something that's not true. jfc we need the forums.) Najawin ☎ 20:19, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Reading through the "compromise" was incredibly frustrating, and it has actually made me decide to bow out of this discussion.

At the end of the day the Doctor stated several times in the episode that he was the Doctor and Sacha Dhawan himself has stated in an interview that he has now played both the Doctor and the Master (clearly differentiating the incarnations). It baffles my mind as to why people think their own interpretations are more valid than that of the actors who communicated with those who literally put the problem to screen. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 21:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry Corrie, but perhaps we've watched different interviews with Sacha Dhawan, but Dhawan pretty clearly stated that he was playing the Master and not the Doctor in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP4q7OrlDm8. I cited that interview in one of my above comments, noting that he described it as his Master 'wearing a mask' because he didn't like being himself. One can glibly say "I suppose I've played the Doctor AND the Master now!" without meaning that in a literal sense. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 21:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

RadioTimes interview. "I was really overwhelmed and really excited that I get to be the Doctor, albeit briefly. Being the Master’s been amazing but I've always thought, would I ever get the chance to be the Doctor? So it was amazing and, actually when I came to do that scene, there's a lot of my own reaction in it. Being the first British South Asian actor to be playing the Master, and then to kind of be the Doctor, I felt really proud to do it." DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 21:54, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Notice how he says "and then to kind of be the Doctor." I reiterate that one can glibly say "I suppose I've played the Doctor AND the Master now!" without meaning that in a literal sense. And the Doctor stating "several times in the episode that he was the Doctor" was none other than Sacha Dhawan's Master. Alex Macqueen said on multiple occasions in UNIT: Dominion that he was the Doctor, that doesn't make him an incarnation of the Doctor. Michelle Gomez said in World Enough and Time that she was the Doctor (specifically Dr. Who), but that doesn't make her the Doctor. Also noteworthy is that every time he says he's the Doctor, multiple characters tell him that he's not the Doctor and never could be the Doctor. The Daleks didn't say "Sabotage! The Doctor has degenerated and is good again!" The Daleks said "Sabotage! The Doctor is still alive!" The MasterDoctor says "If you're a friend of the Doctor's... you aren't going to use that", not "If you're a friend of mine... you aren't going to use that." Not only does the narrative treat him like he isn't the Doctor, HE HIMSELF doesn't treat himself as the Doctor. So not only does the actor say he's playing the Master in those moments, but the characters in-universe say so. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 21:56, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

You two are slipping into a very "pre-Compromise" kind of debate; just the kind of debate which the Compromise is meant to bypass altogether. Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration does not take a side on whether Dhawan's character is the Doctor. I still personally think that he isn't, but he could well be as far as the page's setup is to be concerned. Please, can we stop. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:58, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

(Directed at NoNotTheMemes) Again, going round in circles. I will be bowing out as there is no way to progress in a discussion here. I just wanted to post my lack of support for the "compromise" and then gave you the link you wanted. I'm not being sucked back into this tedious roundabout discussion. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 22:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Here's a transcript of that interview, if anyone is interested. Brackets are when they cut to scenes from the story itself.

"Maybe the audience hasn't quite seen *my* Master, as it were --and I'm still questioning at the end of the episode whether you've seen the real him. There's maybe moments where he shows his real self but really getting into that and thinking about that opened up loads of possibilities. ["I am the Doctor!"] One other thing that I was really intent on was whatever version of the Master I was playing, I was totally committed to it. There's a similar vein going through all of them, but I wanted each of them to be distinctly different. He's a Master of disguise, he really embodies those characters. And it was really good fun to play, but in terms of preparation I did a lot of prep trying to make each of them different and understand each of their intentions. I kinda see him sometimes as a sad clown --he's a performer. He gets real excitement and joy out of wearing different masks. ["I am the Doctor, and I caused this."]* But even saying that, I was also interested in exploring --maybe --when the mask slips, and you see the real him. ["I erased you Doctor, don't let me go back to being me!"] I can take aspects of what we've done and almost reinvent him again, that's one of the things that I wanted to do. If I ever continue playing the Master again, I'm gonna continue doing it is constantly taking strands and reinventing and keeping the audience guessing keeping them on their toes keeping them excited --that's the real joy I get from it!"Sacha Dhawan

NoNotTheMemes ☎ 22:23, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I 100% agree with Scrooge here. Precedent states we follow a stream of consciousness approach. Had it been the case that the Doctor regenerated into an individual which looked like the Dhawan Master but didn't have his memories, then I would be all for having a page. As it is, the Doctor regenerated into the Master with all of the Master's memories and personality apparently intact; his stream of consciousness continued into the Doctor's new body. When Dhawan degenerates back into Jodie, his consciousness returns to the Master's body. We wouldn't be able to add anything to a Dhawan Doctor's page that wouldn't already be on the Spy Master's page. As is, there is currently no reason to have a separate page until, perhaps, we separate the incarnations of the Master. This stream of consciousness approach is the same reason why we don't have a page for Eleventh Doctor (River Song's World), and the reason why Donna Noble (Donna's World) is to be merged with Donna Noble. As for whether we include him as an incarnation of the Doctor, I completely agree that he should be, but this would probably make more sense to action when we come to split up the Master page into their respective incarnations. 66 Seconds ☎ 09:51, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying, 66 Seconds, but it sounds to me like you're in 100% agreement with my camp, which includes Scrooge --who is acquiescing to the demands of the other side with this proposal. So just to clarity, are you in favor of the proposal that Scrooge and I are in favor of ("Cover it on the Spy Master and don't make a new page") or Scrooge's proposed compromise ("Cover it very very briefly on the Spy Master and make a page for Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration")? NoNotTheMemes ☎ 15:37, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

There's a layer to these interviews that hasn't been pointed to and it maybe solves all the problems? The earlier compromise message mentioned Harold Saxon for a second, but there's loads more articles making a precedent for deep dives into specific personas (ex: Razor (World Enough and Time), Emil Keller). Sacha talks about his Doctor as being a discrete "character" masking the Master character, which is true in the episode due to the Master acting and dressing different during the time he's the 14th DR. ∴ Master!Doctor could be covered as a regeneration in respect to Jodie and a disguise in respect to Sacha. Thank you and good day. 00:00, 28 October 2022 (UTC) – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 96.23.140.14 (talk).

Personally I'd support just covering the "Doctor Master" within the Spy Master, but it's clear there's strong views to the contrary here, so a Harold Saxon/Razor style compromise seems reasonable. SherlockTheII ☎ 10:23, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry NoNotTheMemes, I meant I was in favour of both yourself and Scrooge - "cover it on the Spy Master and don't make a new page". This has been a long thread, and I must admit I have skimmed some of the responses here, so I apologise for not giving you the credit. As is, there is nothing that wouldn't already be covered on the Spy Master page. However as SherlockTheII states above, I wouldn't be adverse to a compromise considering there are strong views on either side. 66 Seconds ☎ 15:35, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

While I don't care to reopen the whole discussion, I just wanted to point out that TPotD script has been released and ever after the *swap* the Master is now labeled as "The Master-Doctor". DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 15:07, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

How to refer to each incarnation of the Master

Well, I think some of us were hoping it'd be simpler, but the fact that Talk:The Master (The TV Movie) discussion and Talk:The Master (The Keeper of Traken) are going on at the same time with seemingly different ideas made me think we should just discuss this. This is not necessarily meant to be a discussion to determine a name or page title for each Master; those should still happen on their talk page. This is just a discussion on having consistency between them.

This long comment started as something I was going to write for Talk:The Master (The TV Movie), with me saying I think it should either be both Tremas Master and Bruce Master, or both The Master (The TV Movie) and The Master (The Keeper of Traken), for consistency. …But then in the latter case, arguably some of the others should also use disambiguation terms. I personally think that for the "main" Masters (i.e. those not ambiguous or from another reality) should either all use descriptions for page titles, with the possible exception of The Master (Terror of the Autons) (the reason for which is currently discussed on his talk page and should remain there), or all use disambiguation terms, with the exceptions of Decayed Master, War Master, Missy and the Lumiat. Having any other sort of mixed arrangement would just be confusing. Please note I am not saying the wiki must subscribe to the above dichotomy, just that I think it needs to be discussed. But there's another problem:

Initially I too subscribed to the story dab pattern, for neutrality. But the problem is, the incarnations still need a name to be referred to with in articles to specify them. We can't say "The Doctor met the Master (Dominion)." in an article. It'd have to be something like "The Doctor met the Reborn Master." This means even if they're not page titles, descriptive names are necessary anyway. There are a few proposed names that work well enough with their story titles, like "Traken Master" (from The Keeper of Traken) or "Spy Master" (from Spyfall). But for most of them, a different name is needed to maintain an in-universe perspective, and because the text of the wiki will be using these names to identify the incarnations, it makes sense to me to have them be the page names anyhow, regardless of what they actually are. I am not 100% against using names on pages and disambiguation terms for (most) titles, which is essentially the status quo, but I think the page title should reflect how the character is almost always referred to on the wiki…

Last note, this is a bit pedantic, but I think it makes a difference: I think descriptive names which are derived from a name themselves should use quotes— basically, "Tremas" Master instead of Tremas Master, "Bruce" Master instead of Bruce Master, and "Saxon" Master instead of Saxon Master. This not only reads better to me, for example alleviating concerns that "Bruce Master" sounds like, and probably is, some guy's name, but also better conveys the reasons those names are being used. Currently quotes are variably used for all descriptive names (particularly with coverage of Masterful you might see something like "the 'Young' Master"), but I think that's too difficult to read and that is the best way to use them. Chubby Potato ☎ 05:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)