Talk:Davros

Davros

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Infobox image

I have re-added the image File:Davros.jpg to the infobox for this article. In the interest of preventing edit wars, the reason is explained here. Any replacement of this image with file:DavrosJE1.jpg or similar images will be reverted.

We have certain rules for infobox images, some of which you can read at Tardis:Guide to images. One of the rules is that the infobox image must be representative of the story/character/location, etc. In this particular case, Davros has appeared in more of the classic episodes than those of NuWho, so the image of the older version is more appropriate, as User:OttselSpy25 stated in his edit summary.

For similar examples, you can check out the articles for Ice Warrior and Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart.

The current image is the best possible image currently available, but it doesn't quite satisfy all our guidelines for infobox images. If someone uploads a more tightly cropped image of the classic era Davros, it can be posted here for consideration. Also, images of Davros from the current series (and series 4 of course) are allowed anywhere else on the page. Shambala108 ☎ 01:38, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

"Not been born yet"

Years ago, when I was a student at the Ottawa Child Study Centre, I had a cab mate who told me that the story of GENESIS OF THE DALEKS took place in the future and that Davros "hasn't been born yet."Glammazon ☎ 03:49, September 18, 2020 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what your point is? But the dating of Skaro history relative to Earth history is a fraught point. There is a significant following for the idea that TV: The Dead Planet takes place in 1963, for example, which would necessarily place Genesis contemporary to the Middle-Ages, or thereabouts. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 10:07, September 18, 2020 (UTC)

Infobox image - tabbed?

Hey all. Given the new guidelines and rules which allow for recasts to be shown in infobox galleries (see how First Doctor shows Hartnell, Hurndall and Bradley), would it be appropriate to do the same for Davros' actors/infobox? It's a slightly weirder one because every Davros is meant to be the very same character, and even though the mask changes three or more times, it's still meant to be the same face in-universe. Any thoughts? Fractal Doctor ☎ 12:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

The two Decayed Masters are essentially the same, but that infobox gallery has Pratt and Beevers in. So should Davros? Fractal Doctor ☎ 12:40, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. Hurndall isn't meant to be a different face from Hartnell in-universe, either. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 12:55, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree entirely. I personally think we should show every actor to play Davros, in order of introduction. Thus we can include the "child Davros" without it being the default image. I also think an extra image should be included for the "Emperor" Davros incarnation. Thus:

• 

  Wisher

• 

  Gooderson

• 

  Molly (a better copy of this image should be possible)

• 

  Bleach

• 

  The Emperor

• 

  Price

What does everyone think? OS25🤙☎️ 22:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Seems confusing to have the Emperor after Bleach; surely if we're going by real-world chronological it should be Molloy, Emperor, Bleach? (Also, there are multiple variants of Davros's Emperor casing in the EU, but I suppose we can gloss over that…)

As regards Bleach, I suspect my ongoing effort to fill out Davros/Gallery will locate a better shot than that Stolen Earth image. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:52, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the Emperor Davros feels weird after Bleach. Otherwise, I like this. Fractal Doctor ☎ 00:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

We can move it back, or we can delete it I suppose. I worried that interrupting the main four actors would be distracting as well. OS25🤙☎️ 03:56, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

We absolutely should use tabbed gallery here too. However, I disagree with the lineup of images you’ve suggested Fractal. I would suggest:

• 

  Wisher

• 

  Gooderson

• 

  Molloy

• 

  Bleach

• 

  Price

Danniesen ☎ 14:05, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

If we’re cheeky we can also add Davros as played by SP Bowling in the mini-story Risen. But I definitely removed the "Emperor" image because I think one should be able to see a face. And the casing isn’t Davros, it’s just a casing (even if Davros is inside). Danniesen ☎ 14:23, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Well it wasn't Fractal first of all. Secondly, I still think the Emperor is a unique enough incarnation to potentially justify a place in the TAB. Thirdly, I think some of the images you've swapped out are for the worse here. The Price image is a step-down to me for sure, and I think we can find something from Genesis that is less dark and vague. OS25🤙☎️ 19:47, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

OMG, sorry Fractal… I don’t know how I didn’t see the comment came from someone else.

Eh… actually I think personally that they’re both a step up compared. Also, I really don’t think him becoming Emperor is justifiable to have two images in infobox. First of all, it’s the same actor as the previous two stories, secondly you don’t see his face at all as I pointed out above. Danniesen ☎ 19:59, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I think I agree with Danniesen that the Emperor doesn't need to be in the tabbed gallery, especially since we have Molloy anyway. (We could even add in the Great Healer 'look' but there has to be a line. Maybe the Emperor casing can go elsewhere on the page if it isn't already?)

Also, how about either of these 2 screengrabs for Genesis...

Facing left, close up, well lit. // Pretty much facing left, Davros in good profile, well lit. :) Fractal Doctor ☎ 20:03, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

PS: This gets my vote for Price. Fractal Doctor ☎ 20:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

What I would love is a photo like File:Even more deadly.jpg for the first Davros. An image that shows him clearly, and also has the Dalek in the background. If that's not possible, we should go with the "To hold in my hand" scene. OS25🤙☎️ 20:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

That would really narrow down the field (are there any in Genesis?) so whilst I like the idea, I'm not sure it's practical in this case. I think the second screengrab I posted showcases Davros in good profile, isolated and clearly. Fractal Doctor ☎ 20:47, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Throwing this one into the mix too. Has the recognisable bunker location in the background which they spend so much time in during Genesis. The background even coincidentally frames him nicely too. Fractal Doctor ☎ 20:49, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

OS25 this is the closest one to the Molloy "even more deadly" screengrab I could find, and also comes from the "to hold in my hand" scene. Fractal Doctor ☎ 20:52, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I like all the Wisher pics you proposed Fractal. I do like the Price one, but it cuts off part of his head, and my interpretation from the image thread was that the policy changes were made to avoid this. Danniesen ☎ 21:52, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Danniesen. Any further movement/thoughts on this? Fractal Doctor ☎ 15:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Only my restatement that I'd like you to give me enough time to finished scraping the TV stories for screenshots at Davros/Gallery before a line-up is finalised! I still think that Bleach image is very poor — he's weirdly looking up, and the blue lighting from the TV screen is unflattering (giving the rubber mask a particularly plasticky cast). Honestly I would prefer employing an image from the Series 9 two-parter if at all possible (a cropped version of File:Compassion. Is. Wrong.jpg, perhaps?), but I'll admit they're all a bit dark. If a Series 4 image must be sought, I am convinced we can locate a better one. I've just done The Stolen Earth for the gallery — I'll probably do Journey's End in the coming days. Stolen Earth didn't yield any great candidates, but perhaps File:Davros gave himself to his children.jpg could be considered, as it's got less of a blue "glare".

Setting all this aside, re: the Wisher images… admin hat on, you guys really shouldn't be linking to all these externally-hosted proposed images, you know. They should all be uploaded to the Wiki and put in a gallery on this page. I'll hold off on deleting the links for a couple of days to give people time to do this. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 15:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Apologies Scrooge MacDuck, that's totally my bad.

So here are the Wisher images I propose for use... followed by one I'd suggest for Bleach. (I agree we shouldn't be limited to the Series 4 story, but his Series 9 appearance is quite murky and dark in comparison.)

• 
• 
• 

Fractal Doctor ☎ 19:15, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Scrooge. I think there's no rush here, and also File:Davros gave himself to his children.jpg is the best image of Wisher Davros so far. Again, we no longer are required to have all these images facing left, so we might as well pick the best image possible. OS25🤙☎️ 20:37, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

No rush at all, OS25. I assume you meant Bleach there. I agree tbh. Fractal Doctor ☎ 23:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Here is the Julian Bleach image I propose. It's the best lit shot of him, it's facing in the "correct" direction, he's making a neutral face, and it's already perfectly cropped.

• 

NoNotTheMemes ☎ 18:36, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

That would get my vote, NoNotTheMemes. Fractal Doctor ☎ 21:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

• 

  Wisher

• 

  Gooderson

• 

  Molly

• 

  Bleach

• 

  Price

So now that we've settled, how does everyone feel about this selection? OS25🤙☎️ 03:07, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't love the one of the kid, honestly. It's a good picture in itself, but the angle makes his facial proportions look a bit different from what he's actually like — thinner, with less baby fat — so it's not ideal for an infobox picture. The others work for me. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 03:18, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I apologise, I meant to swap that one out for the more recent consensus. I've now corrected it, as it was sincerely a mistake. OS25🤙☎️ 02:09, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I think that selection is mostly good. I'm not sold on the Wisher pic. I think it's low-quality, dark, and there's no reason we have to use a screengrab from that scene. This is my proposal (right). Otherwise, I think the rest are great. Fractal Doctor ☎ 12:32, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Wisher pic proposals

Here are my proposals for the Wisher Davros image. Fractal Doctor ☎ 12:45, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

• 

  Amost front facing, closer on the face

• 

  Left facing, fuller body

• 

  Front facing, fuller body

• 

  My preferred pic

I think the first one is the only one that comes close to matching the "To hold in my hand" image. The others are too dark or too poorly framed. OS25🤙☎️ 15:50, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Any movement on this? Would be nice to get a gallery in place 🚀 Fractal Doctor 🔮 17:57, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

We're 4 months post-main discussion on this with still no clear resolution. For no good reason other than it's the anniversary coming up, and this Wiki has already had a good amount of freshening up, it'd be nice to get an infobox gallery going soon. I think the selection as posted most recently by OS25 is solid, and seems to be generally agreed upon (?) - it's just the Wisher photo that we need to agree on :) — Fractal Doctor @ 18:25, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

My preferred image would be the one that says "My preferred pic". Imo it's by far the nicest, clearest, with the best lighting. Aquanafrahudy 📢 18:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

For reference, I've continued this discussion below. Hoping a simple vote can end this discussion. — Fractal Doctor @ 18:30, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Davros with 2 hands (new production photos)

May be of relevance/interest for this page. Some photos from the 1970s production have been unearthed, showing behind the scenes of Frontier in Space and Genesis of the Daleks. Michael Wisher is shown with both hands. Photos are in black and white. Posting here in case anybody can use them, or in case they may be useful for a the new gallery section. (Also cross-posted to the Genesis talk page too.) Fractal Doctor ☎ 11:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Infobox gallery proposal

Further to discussion above, what do we think of this for the infobox gallery?

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

I understand there may have been an objection to the "Price" Davros pic, but we are very limited with screencaps and I think this is the best we have. — Fractal Doctor @ 18:29, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Think that's good, yeah. Aquanafrahudy 📢 19:09, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Could we crop Price further, even if we stick with this picture? It's not too wide anymore in general by policy but I do think the different framing to all the others is very distracting. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 12:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Davros' appearance

So in Destination: Skaro (TV story), Davros is shown with all of his limbs and without disfigurement while inventing the Daleks. A significant subset of fans have taken this as just a conflicting account showing a pre-disfigurement Davros, but Davies has said otherwise in Doctor Who: Unleashed. Quote, "We had long conversations about bringing Davros back, because he's a fantastic character, [but] time and society and culture and taste has moved on. And there's a problem with the Davros of old in that he's a wheelchair user, who is evil. And I had problems with that. And a lot of us on the production team had problems with that, of associating disability with evil. And trust me, there's a very long tradition of this. I'm not blaming people in the past at all, but the world changes and when the world changes, Doctor Who has to change as well. So we made the choice to bring back Davros without the facial scarring and without the wheelchair – or his support unit, which functions as a wheelchair. I say, this is how we see Davros now, this is what he looks like. This is 2023. This is our lens. This is our eye. Things used to be black and white, they're not in black and white anymore, and Davros used to look like that and he looks like this now, and that we are absolutely standing by. It's a night where issues of disability or otherness or being excluded from society come right to the front of the conversation. So of all the nights to make this change, I thought it was absolutely vital to do this. And I'm very, very, very proud of the fact that we have." This statement makes it very clear that the short was not meant to depict Davros in the past, but that it was a retcon of Davros' appearance over the decades. A statement like "Davros used to look like that and he looks like this now" does not in any way imply that the short took place pre-accident; it specifically calls out Davros' design of the past 48 years and says it is a thing of the past. "I say, this is how we see Davros now, this is what he looks like" heavily implies that any depiction of him using the old design has been declared invalid by showrunner fiat. And while some people might argue that Unleashed took his words out of context, or that he wasn't speaking clearly, Chris Chibnall has been interviewed and he specifically complimented the retconning of Davros, saying, "He's made some decisions, the decision around Davros, and stuff like that, [they're] really fantastic, wonderful decisions and it has to keep changing. It has to keep evolving, it has to keep checking itself against the world and being a little bit ahead of the world.". This clearly goes beyond the Children in Need sketch, and while the BBC hasn't tried to make George Lucas-style edits to Davros' previous appearances (even if they want to they could probably never afford to), RTD's sentiment is pretty clear. This is Davros now and for all time. And so I think the TARDIS Datacore needs to reflect or at least acknowledge that in some way. This is something that's happening, the wiki can't stick its collective fingers in its ears and wait for something that isn't going to change to blow over. I'm not a regular contributor to this wiki, so I don't think I can say what should happen, but I can try and start this very necessary conversation, so I'm doing that. Teridax2000 ☎ 01:07, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Rule 1. RtD's comments are irrelevant until this appears in other media. Najawin ☎ 02:26, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Well... I'm not sure. We've let authorial intent guide our coverage before, and if it is clear that this Davros is not meant to be before his disfigurement, but one who was never disfigured, lends more credence to Destination: Skaro being set in a different version of reality than Genesis of the Daleks ^[+]Loading...["Genesis of the Daleks (TV story)"]. As I'm sure this will be heavily discussed in the not-too-distant future, this may be a very pertinent element to the discussion.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

02:53, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

We'd just remain agnostic on the issue until there's such a story, per current rules about speculation, no? Najawin ☎ 05:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

In theory, but currently we have two stories, one explicitly showing two realities existing, and one that sorta implies it. It's the issue with these semi-promotional stories, as they deserve coverage due to being officially released but make contextless references to unreleased material, leaving us in a tricky spot with coverage.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

06:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

But... Even if we grant that, it doesn't imply that this would handle coverage this way, as a moving forward thing. That's precisely something we'd be agnostic about. Najawin ☎ 07:34, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

We can acknowledge this in the BTS section, sure. But this shouldn't influence our real world coverage any more than Genesis of the Daleks' decision to overwrite the comics from the sixties. And changing Davros' appearance is an out of universe occurrence. It should in no way influence our in-universe coverage besides "according to one account this happened and according to another this happened". And Davies' comment was not remotely clear as to whether Davros would be brought back at all under his reign. This whole thing is ridiculously blown out of proportion. RTD's quotes merit nowt but a note in the "Behind the scenes" section. Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 07:47, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Double Bleach

Please can we not keep adding a second Bleach into the infobox gallery. We only depict each actor once. — Fractal Doctor @ 21:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

How is it a double it's like how Tom Baker is the fourth doctor and the creator are you saying we can't have both images of them? It's exactly the same because there different enough