Talk:Fourth Wall

Fourth Wall

Talk

Rename

I've added a {{rename}} tag to the page as I feel "Fourth wall (in-universe)" would better get across the difference between this and "fourth wall", as well as not using capitalisation which, presumably, only one source uses. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:33, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

This seems sensible. (This is not a closing post.)
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 23:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

It should be Fourth Wall though, as From Wildthyme with Love capitalises thr term.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

00:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I guess I don't feel that strongly on that bit, but I definitely think an "(in-universe)" dab would help differentiate it, either way. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 00:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Having now read it, the term is used uncapitalised in Freaky Foolsday ^[+]Loading...["Freaky Foolsday (short story)"]. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 21:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I am unconvinced by the rename suggestion though. T:DAB IU generally suggests that, if an in-universe counterparts of Doctor Who media should receive the dab term, and, in rare occasions, outlying cases. However, the Fourth Wall is not an in-universe counterpart of Doctor Who media, it's a pre-existing literary device. If we go down that route, we'd end up dabbing lots of pages like exposition, science fiction, episode, etc etc etc, which was not agreed upon in the original forum thread, and I strongly oppose it. This is an in-universe wiki. General concepts should not be disambiguated from coverage of the same concepts from an out-of-universe perspective.

The precedent this rename could set would affect coverage of many different pages in such a way antithetical to the perspective and system of this wiki.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Epsilon. "Fourth Wall" should refer to the IU usage, and the OOU usage should be renamed in some way. (Perhaps "Fourth wall breaks in DWU media" or similar.) Najawin ☎ 22:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't think it does.

The "(in-universe)" disambiguation term should be used to dab any in-universe thing named after an out-of-universe thing. (emphasis my own)

This would imply that any in-universe concept named after an out of universe concept, including such cases as this, would deserve the "(in-universe)" dab. And anyhow, disambiguating by a single capitalisation is completely unintuitive and unhelpful. Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 22:13, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The original forum thread discussed in-universe Doctor Who actors and episodes, not literary concepts from the real world that have coincidentally appeared in Doctor Who media. I feel an application of the policy surrounding the former being applied to the latter extends beyond what was originally discussed and I strongly, strongly am against that. This is an in-universe wiki. We have in-universe pages.

This could very easily devolve into a slippery slope where every page in Category:Cultural references from the real world would be given an "(in-universe)" dab term.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

22:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Hm.

1. I think it's not very controversial that disambiguating by a single capital letter isn't very helpful, readable or accessible. So something has to change.
2. @Epsilon, I see your point about the primacy of in-universe articles in all but a few cases. (...Though I don't see how a slippery slope can appear if the rule that (in-universe) dabs can only be used when there's an actual collision is maintained...) If there is an undabbed page, you'd expect it to be for the in-universe concept of the pair.
3. @Najawin's suggestion of giving the out-of-universe page some longwinded title with "DWU" in it might work, if only because most of that page is really a list of fourth wall breaks rather than an explanation of the concept.
   This feels unsatisfying as a general solution, though, if this problem occurs again anywhere. You shouldn't need to rename a page to something that is worse at describing its content, and there isn't always a longwinded phrase with "DWU" in it that is better at that. I think. Might be wrong.

Not-entirely-serious suggestion, then: would an (out-of-universe) dab term, or something similar, work?

jsmith5504^{talk to me} 23:55, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Retcon for an, imo, effectively identical case that hasn't been resolved either. (Funnily enough, Epsilon's position has changed in the last year.) Najawin ☎ 23:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Huh, so I have. I hardly can understand my reasoning as the page isn't even about an in-universe version of retcon...

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

23:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Scope

Would this page be able to cover stuff like the Fifteenth Doctor's reference to diagesis in The Devil's Chord ^[+]Loading...["The Devil's Chord (TV story)"]? (Or, also, various parts of that comic I did, which has Jenny break the fourth wall a bit) Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it should cover direct mentions, rather than listing examples where from our perspective, as readers the fourth wall has been broken. It would be good to be able to cite a connection between the fourth wall and diegesis, from an in-universe source.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 23:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)