Talk:Fourth Wall

Fourth Wall

Talk

Rename

I've added a {{rename}} tag to the page as I feel "Fourth wall (in-universe)" would better get across the difference between this and "fourth wall", as well as not using capitalisation which, presumably, only one source uses. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:33, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

This seems sensible. (This is not a closing post.)
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 23:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

It should be Fourth Wall though, as From Wildthyme with Love capitalises thr term.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

00:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I guess I don't feel that strongly on that bit, but I definitely think an "(in-universe)" dab would help differentiate it, either way. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 00:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Having now read it, the term is used uncapitalised in Freaky Foolsday ^[+]Loading...["Freaky Foolsday (short story)"]. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 21:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I am unconvinced by the rename suggestion though. T:DAB IU generally suggests that, if an in-universe counterparts of Doctor Who media should receive the dab term, and, in rare occasions, outlying cases. However, the Fourth Wall is not an in-universe counterpart of Doctor Who media, it's a pre-existing literary device. If we go down that route, we'd end up dabbing lots of pages like exposition, science fiction, episode, etc etc etc, which was not agreed upon in the original forum thread, and I strongly oppose it. This is an in-universe wiki. General concepts should not be disambiguated from coverage of the same concepts from an out-of-universe perspective.

The precedent this rename could set would affect coverage of many different pages in such a way antithetical to the perspective and system of this wiki.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Epsilon. "Fourth Wall" should refer to the IU usage, and the OOU usage should be renamed in some way. (Perhaps "Fourth wall breaks in DWU media" or similar.) Najawin ☎ 22:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't think it does.

The "(in-universe)" disambiguation term should be used to dab any in-universe thing named after an out-of-universe thing. (emphasis my own)

This would imply that any in-universe concept named after an out of universe concept, including such cases as this, would deserve the "(in-universe)" dab. And anyhow, disambiguating by a single capitalisation is completely unintuitive and unhelpful. Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 22:13, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The original forum thread discussed in-universe Doctor Who actors and episodes, not literary concepts from the real world that have coincidentally appeared in Doctor Who media. I feel an application of the policy surrounding the former being applied to the latter extends beyond what was originally discussed and I strongly, strongly am against that. This is an in-universe wiki. We have in-universe pages.

This could very easily devolve into a slippery slope where every page in Category:Cultural references from the real world would be given an "(in-universe)" dab term.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

22:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Retcon for an, imo, effectively identical case that hasn't been resolved either. (Funnily enough, Epsilon's position has changed in the last year.) Najawin ☎ 23:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Huh, so I have. I hardly can understand my reasoning as the page isn't even about an in-universe version of retcon...

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

23:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Hm.

1. I think it's not very controversial that disambiguating by a single capital letter isn't very helpful, readable or accessible. So something has to change.
2. @Epsilon, I see your point about the primacy of in-universe articles in all but a few cases. (...Though I don't see how a slippery slope can appear if the rule that (in-universe) dabs can only be used when there's an actual collision is maintained...) If there is an undabbed page, you'd expect it to be for the in-universe concept of the pair.
3. @Najawin's suggestion of giving the out-of-universe page some longwinded title with "DWU" in it might work, if only because most of that page is really a list of fourth wall breaks rather than an explanation of the concept.
   This feels unsatisfying as a general solution, though, if this problem occurs again anywhere. You shouldn't need to rename a page to something that is worse at describing its content, and there isn't always a longwinded phrase with "DWU" in it that is better at that. I think. Might be wrong.

Not-entirely-serious suggestion, then: would an (out-of-universe) dab term, or something similar, work? jsmith5504^{talk to me} 23:55, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

This feels unsatisfying as a general solution, though, if this problem occurs again anywhere

It's not supposed to be a general solution. In general we already have dab terms for things like (actor), (TV story), etc. We leave IU stuff undabbed and figure out a dab for OOU stuff as needed. This is a problem that needs case by case solutions, not a general one. Najawin ☎ 00:16, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

(FWIW, I do think an admin should tweak T:DAB IU to bring it more closely in line with the rule as it's constructed at Forum:Temporary forums/IU DAB Terms. If Aquana's confused and thinks it's suggesting something in direct contradiction to T:DAB it's probably a good idea to tweak the wording.) Najawin ☎ 04:59, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not suggested, it's explicit. I'm not sure how you can read that policy page any other way. And if you look at the conclusion of the forum, the term used is "in-universe counterparts of out-of-universe things", which, well, this is. It is an in-universe counterpart of the out-of universe concept of a fourth wall break. Hence current policy is to give it the in-universe dab. (Which I think is also the clearest and most user-friendly option, and also able to be generalised.) Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 09:14, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

"Out-of-universe things" meaning "out-of-universe things that warrant coverage as out-of-universe things on Tardis", Aquana. I've tweaked the policy page to clarify this, but I rather thought it went without saying. "France (in-universe)" would be lunacy. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 13:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The fourth wall does merit an out of universe page on Tardis, though? France doesn't. How is this relevant to the conversation? Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 15:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Yet we disambiguated things that have no OOU counterpart, such as Doctor Who Magazine Issue 100000 (in-universe), as the reasoning goes we disambiguate things that could be confused for an OOU page (I mildly disagree but I respect the counterargument and don't think it's worth changing). But if we apply this reasoning to Fourth Wall, it sets a precedent we should disambiguate anything from the real world, if I am not mistaken.

One could make the argument that France is about the real location, after all.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

15:15, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Okaaay, didn't know we did that. I always assumed that such cases wouldn't be liable for the dab term. Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 15:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The DWM thing is an edge case, but it would warrant Tardis coverage as a real world subject if it existed, which is different from France or rutabagas, which simply do not warrant real-world pages.

Has Fourth wall (real world) been considered? --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Scrooge, but I think the "warranting coverage" angle is still confusing for this case. Aquana, just focus on the reason T:DAB IU was adopted, per the thread, and what we actually discussed in it. There was no discussion of a case like this, nobody was interested in it, it just isn't what the rule is meant to do. Even if Bongo's closing post didn't specifically say it was about the IU version of the DWU franchise, it clearly contextually was, because that's all we had been discussing the entire thread. If you want to extend the rule to mean this, I think this is a novel reading of it that at the very least requires a forum thread, rather than a talk page. But that's just me. Najawin ☎ 18:11, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Scope

Would this page be able to cover stuff like the Fifteenth Doctor's reference to diagesis in The Devil's Chord ^[+]Loading...["The Devil's Chord (TV story)"]? (Or, also, various parts of that comic I did, which has Jenny break the fourth wall a bit) Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it should cover direct mentions, rather than listing examples where from our perspective, as readers the fourth wall has been broken. It would be good to be able to cite a connection between the fourth wall and diegesis, from an in-universe source.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 23:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)