Talk:The Eleven

WARNING SPOILERS FOR DOOM COALITION 3

The Eleven does not appear in The Eighth Piece, The Doomsday Chronometer, or The Crucible of Souls. The trouble is the Eight and the Nine do. While the one page for all the incarnations works with most Time Lords, I don't think it does for the Eleven because "the Eleven" is just this Time Lord's eleventh incarnation. In no way does John Heffernan play the Eleven, he plays the Nine, someone who is three personalities away from being the Eleven. Separate pages for his incarnations would be both less confusing and more accurate. CoT ? 18:00, September 24, 2016 (UTC)

I whoud sport such a move as the 11 as the 11 changes his name with every regeneration with the 1 the 2 and so on 2.26.207.241^{talk to me} 19:59, September 24, 2016 (UTC)

Please note that if something has been released, it is not considered a spoiler on this wiki. Please see Tardis:Spoiler policy for the details. Shambala108 ☎ 20:52, September 24, 2016 (UTC)

I'd be more tempted to keep the Eleven page, and have the heading something like "The Eleven was a Time Lord who's past incarnations lived on inside his head, and named himself after his present incarnation." I'd then have headers under the biography section for "The Nine" etc. It keeps things more in line with what we have for "the Doctor" and "the Master" then. --Revan\Talk 17:41, September 25, 2016 (UTC)

So if he regenerates again in a later story, do we change the article name to The Twelve?

I think it would be best to have the most used name; the Eleven, as the main article name. However, I do think that - like with the Doctor's page - there should be separate sections/pages for the 8, 9 and 11th incarnations (as well as any future incarnations that turn up, which will of course be added when they appear). We haven't done this with many time lords, for example the Master, because it is too confusing to track their regenerations but with the Eleven the three incarnations we have seen are presented clearly. This would help to make the article less confusing because as it stands right now the page suggests that the Eleven turned up in numerous stories in which he didn't actually appear - another one of his regenerations did. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 00:08, February 3, 2017 (UTC)

Spliting pages

I know that usually we make a page for each incarnation of Time Lords, unless there isn't a clear way to name each page. However, the Eleven we do. Each incarnation gets an ordinal number as its name.

I get that another difficulty would be the "main page" for the Time Lord itself. (Romana I, Romana II, Romana III and Trey have Romana, and all 13 Doctors have the Doctor). But as in this case we only have names for each incarnation, I suggest we do this: the Eleven gets to be the "main" page, and then we make pages for The Two, The Three et al.

A last issue would be determining what would count as an appearance. Would the voices of the Six in his mind during Stop the Clock count as an appearance? At first sight, the answer can seem an obvious "no". However, the Eight also appears as a voice on the Eleven's mind, and this is sort of a key-point to the story. Not listing this as an appearance sounds a bit wrong to me. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 00:48, March 19, 2017 (UTC)

I still hold my opinion from Autumn. An appearance by the Eight or the Nine is not an appearance by the Eleven. The Eleven was not a member of the High Council. Each of these incarnations are different people inside the same body. I'd say the Eight most definitely appears in Stop the Clock. It looks like we're going to see quite a bit more of the Eleven in the future and this change would be good. CoT ? 01:06, March 19, 2017 (UTC)

Yes yes. This sort of thing is the exact reason I proppose the spliting. Also, having "The One, The Two, The Three...." under "main aliases" is very wrong, to say the least. Furthermore, the Eleven never pretended to be "the Doctor". The Nine did.

All we need to do is do find a way to truly see how much a voice in the Eleven's head can count as an appearance: for me, it would be determined by the relevance to the plot. If is just a general arguing between two of his former selves, it's not an appearance, but if it gets to the point where the former self "takes over", like the Eight and the Ten did in Stop the Clock, than it is an appearance. Also, we would for sure make a variation of {{romanas}} for him, right? OncomingStorm12th ☎ 01:15, March 19, 2017 (UTC)

Well lets get started anyway Brian Boy ☎ 23:50, June 16, 2018 (UTC)

No admin has ruled on this, so there is no "getting started" yet. Shambala108 ☎ 23:09, June 16, 2018 (UTC)

The Twelve

Even though the Eleven may be the main incarnation we've seen, the Twelve is now the most recent and so the page name should reflect that. Ben Moore512 ☎ 12:16, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

As much is it would make sense to keep the article name as it is, it makes as equal an amount of sense to update it to the most recent incarnation. It's a confusing affair considering the way the character works, but I would ultimately say that, logically, renaming the article 'The Twelve' would be appropriate. BelcherMorganJames ☎ 13:21, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

While I think "the Eleven" should be the main umbrella page which covers the incarnations 1-10 - the Eleventh and Twelfth incarnations should receive their own pages (much like how the Doctor's page is set out). Xx-connor-xX ☎ 13:25, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

Even back when there wasn't a twelfth incarnation, I already though it was a good idea to split each incarnation to it's own page. Now that we do have one (and specially since both incarnations have showed up in recently released stories) I believe it's time to have them all in separate pages (but, as it'd be a decision that would alter several pages, we'd still need approval from an admin). OncomingStorm12th ☎ 13:38, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

I think that the Eleven's page should be split up into separate pages for the different incarnations, but there is still time to work that out. --Saint2 ☎ 13:50, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

I don't think EVERY person deserves their own page - just the ones who have appeared in their own stories. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 14:17, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

I think the best way of going about it, is giving the Eight, Nine, Eleven and Twelve their own page and then grouping the rest, (1 to 7, 10) into one page together. Whatever we call that page could be decided when we start to separate them out. Ben Moore512 ☎ 14:22, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

Well, POSSIBLY, but I can see the reasoning behind the debate. Perhaps it would avoid confusion for everyone if the Eleven's other incarnations received their own pages, but I do take your point. I mean, it is confusing reading a page about someone titled with a number, and now we've got someone with a number further on, right? I didn't even KNOW the Eleven regenerated into the Twelve, never mind became a woman, until today. --Saint2 ☎ 14:49, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

Firstly, please don't delete what I put. Secondly, I'm not sure on a whole page on say, The Three, would be justified when there's so little on him. Unless someone wants to go through the whole of Doom Coalition to note everytime a specific incarnation said something. Ben Moore512 ☎ 14:57, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

That could work, I guess. Or maybe the Eleven page should become more like the Romana page, where the general history of that character was displayed with separate pages for the different personas can be shown. It is a possibility, no?--Saint2 ☎ 15:00, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

I think, from what we've discussed, that'd be the best way to go about it. All we really need, besides permission from an admin, is a name for that page. Simply the Eleven or Twelve, I don't think would the right choice. We could call it "The One". I suppose we should wait for an admin choice before going any further. Ben Moore512 ☎ 15:06, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

Nah, I don't think that works. The Eleven is perhaps the only incarnation that's appeared the most - the Nine and the Eight don't really count - the Eight was only around twice whereas the Nine was only seen the once. I think that the page should just be called the Eleven and separate entries should be made for the different incarnations. I wasn't expecting 'The Twelve.' --Saint2 ☎ 15:16, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

Re Eight and Nine count, they were around for a while. Romana 4 has her own page, with less information than we currently have for 8 or 9 on this page, so a page for them is justified. Ben Moore512 ☎ 16:57, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

There's no such thing as "too little info" on this wiki. The One, the Two and all incarnations up to the Ten have been mentioned/appeared as voices or in physical form in at least one valid source and, thus, per T:WIKIFY could have pages. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 17:38, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with User:OncomingStorm12th. If we are going to split the pages, then I believe that each incarnation should get its own page. --Borisashton ☎ 18:28, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

I think that it would be a bad idea, just because we know have had adventures with the twelve we shouldn't rename this page the twelve. Especially since The Eleven has appeared in 8 stories and the Twelve in 3. I also disagree with separating the page into different incarnations, we don't do that for the Master, the Monk, The Rani, Borusa and Olistra. Each of their incarnations are different to each other in the same way that each of the Eleven's incarnations are. If I were a casual user I wouldn't immediately connect each of the numbered incarnations together. I know we have seperate pages for each Doctor and Romana which is an exception not the rule. Adric♥Nyssa∩Talk? 18:30, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

Except the situation with them is the exact opposite. These Time Lords have only one page because there's no clear name to give each incarnation. The Eleven and the others do. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 18:39, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, now that I think about it, separate pages would make sense. We do so for the Doctor and Romana because we number their incarnations, much like the Eleven, but unlike any other Time Lord. It’s a easy way to categorise and organise. If I were a causal user, AdricLovesNyssa, and say, I only knew Doom Coalition, I’d look up The Eleven and find his page. Then, if I wanted to find the Nine, say, I’d use the info boxes we use for the Doctor and such. You’d figure it out very quickly.

However, I think a main page, if we were to separate them all out, like the Doctor and Romana have, wouldn’t be necessary, mainly because there’s nothing to call it. So we would just link all 11 incarnations’ pages, (11 because we don’t know about the Five) with the infobox. I think now, we just need to wait for an admin. Ben Moore512 ☎ 19:12, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

I still believe having more than one page for this Time Lord Over complicates the matter, it is much simpler and easier to manage having one page than having to negotiate more than one page, as an editor lets say a new story staring the twelve gives information about the six for example I can edit that part of the page at the same time as editing the parts about the twelve. The current situation is the best of the option and leaving it as it is named as the Eleven us better. Adric♥Nyssa∩Talk? 19:42, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

When thinking about it after relistening to 'The Eighth Doctor: The Time War 2',I think it would make sense to rename the page for the simple reason of the Twelve being the only incarnation to really have a grip on her character. It's true that the Eleven had the most stories in which he featured, but his character was singled out by the fact that he also couldn't control his other incarnations behaviour, extensively making him all of his incarnations at once. The Twelve, on the other hand, does have a grip on her previous incarnations, thus making her incarnation her own Time Lord, as opposed to another representation of her previous regenerations. The Twelve basically acts as the bridgehead for all of the incarnations that came before her and they all can be encapsulated by her. BelcherMorganJames ☎ 18:48, July 16, 2018 (UTC)

I finally finished the box set and am not afraid of spoilers anymore. Unfortunately, I have bad news, for which I (in my pre-admin days) am sadly responsible. About two years ago I opened up a thread at Panopticon, Thread:199315, based largely on the beginning of this discussion. Until that thread is closed by an admin, nothing should be done. And I cannot close it, seeing that I had started it. But maybe this is not as bad. My proposal is to copy your final opinion on this matter to the thread. I will too. Then we try to find an impartial admin to close it. Amorkuz ☎ 20:10, July 17, 2018 (UTC)

Infobox image

I'd like to suggest this image for the Eleven's infobox. -- Saxon (✉️) 15:55, October 10, 2019 (UTC)