Lists of Appearances

Proposal

It's been a longstanding issue that, contrary to expectations, many lists of appearances fail to list some of the character's licensed appearances! Thank you @Epsilon the Eternal for inviting me to write the opening post for his proposed fix: include invalid sources on lists of appearances. For instance, add David Tennant's performance in Attack of the Graske to Tenth Doctor - list of appearances, where (quite frankly) it belongs.

Please see Martha Jones - list of appearances for 2 options regarding implementation:

1. Present valid and invalid appearances in the same way. For instance, Legacy, an invalid video game, is not presented any differently than Lost in Time, a valid video game.
2. Add a separate column which marks whether each appearance is valid or invalid. This makes it easy for users to sort and focus on one or the other.

Both options use a new tabular format for LoAs, as also demonstrated at Sabbath Dei - list of appearances, to provide more information to the reader while being more compact than the current system. While for now the tabular format will simply be an option which editors can choose to manually implement, one day it could be automated through @Bongolium500's infobox code tests. Additionally, in both cases, Rule 3 invalid sources – meaning those which we have pages for but are unreleased – can be listed in a separate section from the officially released appearances, as can mentions.

Regardless of which option we choose, it's a plain fact that LoAs aren't in-universe pages, so it makes no sense to omit invalid stories entirely. Hopefully we can prove the viability of these new temporary forums by coming to a quick consensus on this matter! – n8 (☎) 14:53, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Support

Please outline the reasons you support this proposal below.

I completely support this proposal. As said above, we have a great many lists that needs to cover appearances that they at this point do not cover at all. And that’s not even talking about invalid sources. Not much to say, just I support. Danniesen ☎ 21:00, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Personally I think Option 2 is better (because readers SHOULD care if a source is valid or not - even if they don't use those words - otherwise T:VS is completely useless), and of course agree that invalid sourcss should be covered in lists of apprarances Cousin Ettolrhc ☎ 21:03, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Not much to add, frankly, but I very much support this. "Attack of the Graske" is a good example. David Tennant appears in character as The Doctor, it was made by the BBC, with the official production teams and was released in an official capacity. I'd like to draw comparison too - on the list of appearances for the Eleventh Doctor, the "Adventure Games" are listed. Whilst "Attack of the Graske" isn't an Adventure Game, it effectively plays as such, is interactive in the same way, is officially licensed, etc. and features live action Tenth Doctor (whereas the aforementioned games don't even have that, yet are still listed because they feature the character). In summary, I agree these lists should be more comprehensive with additions made. FractalDoctor ☎ 21:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

@Cousin Ettolrhc, I just wanna point out that T:VS isn't supposed to be something readers necessarily care about:

"A valid source is one that we as a wiki believe satisfactorily and intentionally describes information and events in the Doctor Who universe. If a source is marked invalid, it is not because it is "worth less" or "didn't happen"; it simply means that due to some aspect(s) of the nature of the source, we don't consider it able to be used as a reliable and actual account of the DWU. Hence, two contradicting sources can be considered equally valid, while one that seems like it fits in may not be for the reasons below."T:VS

T:VS is merely a tool for the Wiki to use to fairly document stories, and is not a substitute for canon. And for readers, who want a list of which stories the Tenth Doctor appeared in, won't care if Attack of the Graske has multiple choice options, as to them, it's just a story that David Tennant was in.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:28, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

However, option #2 is still a good one, as it does help Wiki editors quickly see which sources are valid, and casual readers can just ignore it.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:30, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I enthusiastically support this proposal. I would personally prefer Option 1 because I doubt that the reader cares that much about whether a particular video game is considered a valid source for articles. But I don't feel very strongly about that aspect either way. Pluto2 (talk) 22:20, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Why do you oppose this proposal?

Neutral

Feeling lukewarm about this proposal? Tell us why.

Comments and concerns

Do you have specific concerns about this proposal that are getting in the way of you making up your mind? Leave them here for discussion.

Is it really necessary to have all those columns in the table? Over on mobile (whose users should make up a majority of readers here) the table is very cramped and it overflows the side of the screen, so not a great experience. Personally I'd think that only having the title, medium and release date is necessary, but then you might get the opposite problem on desktop with the table being somewhat sparse. Custom mobile CSS is supposed to be coming to the platform soon, and so it will become possible to selectively hide columns just on the mobile skin, but then I'm not sure if hiding content is something you want to be doing. guyus24 (talk) 22:53, 9 January 2023 (UTC)