Forum:Validity:The universe's greatest assassin(...)
Opening post
I think this one is rather open and shut. Doom turns and looks to the camera, describes her situation, and asks you to join her on her journey. The Trip of a Lifetime precedent applies, it should never have been created as valid. See the closing post at Forum:Temporary forums/Inclusion debates speedround about the distinction between Trip and other ways in which people turn and talk to the screen. (Since we have these shiny new forums, I figured we should use them for this and do it properly.) Najawin ☎ 20:49, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Discussion
I don't personally object, but I would like to suggest that we might be missing some context here due to the incomplete nature of the Doom's Day series. On its own, I think the trailer should not be valid. But surely there's context for a Rule-4-by-proxy rationale in the future? What if in a future comic, Doom records the message we see in the trailer and broadcasts it to the galaxy? ETC.
I invite others more familiar with the material to contribute. Personally while I am amused by the existence of this series I have not enjoyed what I've seen. OS25🤙☎️ 02:31, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- I apologize for my previous post. I had presumed we were talking about Meet Doom - the Universe's Greatest Assassin! (webcast). However, upon clicking some links, I've realized that we're actually discussing The universe's greatest assassin has just 24 hours to escape Death and find the Doctor - where will Doom's Day take her next? (webcast). To help us differentiate between these two similar cases, I recommend that we use both titles in full whenever possible.
- Personally, I think that The universe's greatest assassin has just 24 hours to escape Death and find the Doctor - where will Doom's Day take her next? is naturally inoffensive but I understand the reason it's been brought up. What makes this harder is that I've been told the story that this trailer would be set directly before has a somewhat strange start, probably because so many of these stories have a disconnect between them.
- It seems to me that since we have two of these so far and both have been released to represent how many hours are left... It's logical to presume that there are many more of these webcasts coming. Meet Doom - the Universe's Greatest Assassin! and The universe's greatest assassin has just 24 hours to escape Death and find the Doctor - where will Doom's Day take her next?, again, likely shouldn't be judged by themselves. I feel strongly that it's hard for us to debate the content of these, and the fourth wall breaks presented, without having a better image of what's at stake here. OS25🤙☎️ 02:37, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- I agree they shouldn’t be valid, but would leave the door open to things if these somehow get referenced in some odd-handed way in a future Doom story. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 02:50, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- I’d just like to add that the newest one of these, WC: Mission update from Doom!, terms the release as a “mission update” in its caption, which I think might indicate some in-universe-ness to the videos. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 14:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Still very similar to Trip of a Lifetime to me. Just as it teases the distinction between watching the show vs being an actual participant on the trip, this sorta does the same. Najawin ☎ 20:31, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- Well, the important thing about Trip of a Lifetime was that the crew of 2005 Who did not intend that the Ninth Doctor should ever have a full-time companion who isn't Rose or Jack. So it really explicitly is discussing the audience "joining" the Doctor.
- Here, the authorial intent is different. When Doom name drops her mother in these videos, do you think this isn't the "real Doom"? I think the authors are indeed presenting the same character providing information, with a bit of a cheeky in-universe twist. If the intention is that Doom is sending out emergency messages throughout these, then they should all be valid. OS25🤙☎️ 22:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- I mean, this is just question begging to say the authorial intent is different. The idea of another full time companion isn't trivially relevant here - you're sort of blurring the line between continuity conflicts (which we don't use to determine validity and so would be completely irrelevant, c'mon) and authorial intent. Like, do we think Doom is literally asking someone to come join her on her journey? Is that the "same Doom"? Is that a normal thing to say in an emergency message? See how the issue isn't quite as clear as you're making it out to be and it's much more analogous than you're portraying? Najawin ☎ 23:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'm absolutely not "blurring the lines" about anything. I'm simply proving the contextual information. The only way to view Trip of a Lifetime is that the Doctor in inviting you to be a companion as a metaphor for watching the show. There is no second way to view it, and I was simply point out the context that RTD was very protective about such things as how many companions Eccleston would have. That is the context of the authorial intent at the time, not me bitching about continuity.
- Secondly, I am merely pointing out that this is a different situation as we are not certainly sure what these videos are meant to be. For instance, the Twitter upload of the last one says: "Mission update from Doom! 19 hours left to find the (right) Doctor and escape Death."
- Surely this gives us context that these videos are mission updates that she's recording and maybe broadcasting, which I understand is also the context of the first video. Really, the end of the day, the question is if these videos are meant to be part of the Doom timeline - and not just the "please buy this specific crap" timeline that's in DWM and the stuch. Like, did the people filming these segments think that she was actually stopping to record these videos between stories? That's the actual question. If this content is in-continuity, which in my opinion it seems they might have been intended to be. OS25🤙☎️ 23:39, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- I mean, we could view it as an invitation to Adam Mitchell. I think it's very clearly not supposed to be that though.
- I honestly don't see any way in which this latest upload challenges the interpretation of the first. Is there any way to read the first that's not a horrifically jarring fourth wall break? I don't think so. I just don't see a way to frame her comment as applying to someone in-universe. If this changes and is explained in a later release I'm willing to change my mind. But merely having a new upload that is compatible with either interpretation is not sufficient. (I note also that these two don't have to live and die together. We could easily validate the one and invalidate the other, if we must.) Najawin ☎ 23:54, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- Well, the issue is that I don't think I still agree that "Come join me!" can only be read as a fourth wall breaking exclamation directed at you to buy stuff. I'm sure it's possible that the writers there decided that, as she is broadcasting across the galaxy, it would make total sense to ask for help in finding the Doctor, etc. OS25🤙☎️ 00:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
I agree that it might make sense to ask for help. I don't agree that phrasing it as "come join me on my journey" makes a lick of sense, especially if we're to interpret these as mission updates. Najawin ☎ 00:19, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- Well, the planet seems to have appeared in AI am the Doctor, so that's something. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 10:26, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
- No it's not. See discission of Carnathon at Forum:Deleted Scenes and Rule 4 By Proxy. Najawin ☎ 15:56, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Surely the Carnathon situation is entirely irrelevant? Whoever wrote AI Am the Doctor, or at least whoever briefed the person who wrote AI am the Doctor, certainly appears to think that the mission updates "happened" in universe. Or at least that's how it seems to me. Aquanafrahudy 📢 17:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see how that follows. There's at least one other option, that of shared art direction that went out to both teams - making it mirror Carnathon. (I note also that there's the inverse direction, that these recordings "take place" on this planet here, pre-established within the context of production, but this doesn't establish that they're meant to be in-universe, else you could use the presence of the TARDIS to argue this for Trip of a Lifetime.) Najawin ☎ 17:14, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Conclusion
This one is more straightforward than it looks. There is no need to discuss "all the mission updates" as a group — they're different. It may be that some of them are valid and some of them aren't. Granting this, proving that the mission updates as a whole are intended to exist in-universe does little for the validity prospects of one webcast in particular.
The validity of Meet Doom - the Universe's Greatest Assassin! is not in doubt, and it only makes sense for the shorter Twitter videos to be created as valid unless proven otherwise. At first glance they're all in-universe broadcasts; but even if they were not, it'd be easy to peg them as She Said, He Said: A Prequel-type affairs, which have also been ruled valid so long as we don't over-cover them as "things characters actually said" (as opposed to sources for their unspoken mindset).
But none of this impacts on The universe's greatest assassin has just 24 hours to escape Death and find the Doctor - where will Doom's Day take her next? in particular. User:Najawin is basically correct that "[although] it might make sense to ask for help, (…) phrasing it as ‘come join me on my journey’ [fails to] make a lick of sense". If this were a longer piece a single fourth-wall-breaking line might be forgiven, but we must be mindful of the context: this is a promotional video. The whole thing pivots on that line. It's the "punchline". Fourth-wall-breaking is integral to this particular video and prima facie excludes it from validity. This could be overturned if we had active evidence of authorial intent — e.g. someone saying that all the mission-update videos are meant to "count" — or indeed some R4BP case, but the presumption should certainly be invalidity for that particular short. It just doesn't impact any of the others.
As always, thanks to anyone who participated. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 12:49, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
