Talk:Emperor of the Restoration

Emperor of the Restoration

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PROSE: The Restoration Empire unambiguously shows that the two characters are separate, even noting that this emperor a) was originally a member of Supreme Council and exterimented his fellow councillors following the civil war with Davros and b) "built a gold casing that recalled an earlier age when Daleks did not fight".

As for validity, I'm not sure about the DWBIT precedent, but I'd say it's valid in much the same vein that The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe and The Legacy of Gallifrey are valid, in that it is an in-universe account of the history of the Restoration Empire, with plenty of historical narrative. Danochy ☎ 00:44, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

My concerns about validity have got nothing to do with non-narrativity — it's just that DWBIT was ruled invalid due to being "part of the packaging" of a piece of merchandise, which seems to cover this as well.

Regardless, I'm not sure anything in The Restoration Empire precludes this Emperor still being the same individual as the Prime; after all, Dalek: The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe already seems to present the Parting of the Ways Emperor as the Emperor who took over the Imperial Daleks after Davros's disappearance at the end of the Civil War. And we know (albeit from a conflicting account) that the Parting of the Ways Emperor is the Prime. And COMIC: Defender of the Daleks is pretty explicit that this is the Emperor, having been brought back by "a paradox".

I think clearly what's going on is that as far as James Goss is concerned, this is the same Emperor as the one in The Parting of the Ways — except the timeline divergence means he never goes through the Time War and Series 1. But he's using the Emperor's backstory as implied in The Astounding History…, that is to say that he does not acknowledge that Emperor to be the same as the TV21/Dalek Annuals Golden Emperor.

This is a bit confusing, but I think in such a scenario we should cover him all on one page, albeit with relevant "accounts conflict" language. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 00:51, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Defender of the Daleks doesn’t suggest what you’re claiming in the slightest. The “paradox” is the Doctor encountering pre-Time War Daleks. These Daleks are from before the Time War and are planning to begin the Time War, this much is made clear in the Eaglemoss set that is left entirely murky in Defender of the Daleks. SarahJaneFan ☎ 01:04, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Er…

…Emperor of the Daleks. Of course. Because paradoxes can never just bring back someone's pet hamster.The Tenth Doctor on Page 13 of Defender of the Daleks

(Boldface mine.) And if I may flip this right back at you, it is not at all clear from reading the Eaglemoss stories that the "paradox" is simply the Doctor meeting the Daleks out of order. Regardless of the Emperor's identity, it seemed clear to me we were looking at forking in history — a path for the Daleks post-Civil War where they had not fought in the TIme War. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:11, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Anyway, and to play devil's advocate under my own position, I suppose we could treat this more like Ferain vs. Valyes — covering accounts of the Time War Emperor on both pages, but acknowledging that the Restoration of the Daleks vs. Dalek: The Astounding History/Restoration Empire accounts of who this Emperor was mean we essentially have two different individuals competing for the better part of the same biography.

In which case this page should remain separate, but probably be relocated to Dalek Emperor (The Parting of the Ways)? I think? --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:15, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

[This was written before the above response. Still posting it as it is still somewhat relevant]

There is nothing (yet) which confirms that this Dalek to the emperor from The Parting of the Ways, but even if there was Restoration of the Daleks doesn't claim what you think either. All that occurs is that the Dalek Emperor is resurrected, there is nothing that confirms which emperor is resurrected.

On the topic of the paradox: it may seem clear to you what was occurring, but if it was not made clear in the narrative, that's just your interpretation. Surely The Restoration Empire, which explicitly writes about these events would be the trustworthy source (provided it isn't made invalid; even then, authorial intent has been helpful in the past), rather than your interpretation of what you think is going on?

[Now I'll respond to your latest message]

Renaming this to (The Parting of the Ways) may be an option to consider, but I don't think there's yet any evidence that the two are the same, although I wouldn't be surprised if this is made clear later on. Thanks for proposing a compromise. But as I've said, I don't agree that Restoration of the Daleks does make it clear that Dalek Prime and God Dalek are the same. Danochy ☎ 01:24, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Unless, of course, PROSE: The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe confirms that they are one and the same, and if there is indeed enough evidence to suggest the Emperor in that is the same as the Emperor here. Danochy ☎ 01:36, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

I do love a puzzle of identities and conflicting accounts (in an irritating sort of way)…

I'll start off by saying that Dalek Prime = Restoration of the Daleks Emperor = Parting of the Ways Emperor is as explicit as it could possibly get. Immediately upon hearing his return, Davros in Restoration of the Daleks acknowledges the Emperor as "that obscenity" who was "responsible for centuries of Dalek against Dalek" — i.e. the Emperor of the Renegade Daleks in the Imperial-Renegade Dalek Civil War, established beyond a shadow of a doubt in War of the Daleks to be the Dalek Prime/Golden Emperor. And the first we hear of the Emperor's resurrection in Restoration is that the Time Strategist wants "a God" to lead the Daleks in the Time War. Plus, of course, he sounds (and talks) in exactly the same way as the Parting of the Ways Emperor. I don't think that identification, whether in terms of textual evidence or authorial intent, can at all be questioned.

And you're right that nothing in The Restoration Empire says this Emperor fought in the Time War — but that's where Dalek: The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe comes in. It already had a new Dalek Emperor taking charge of the Imperial Daleks after Davros goes AWOL, and, in the same breath as it said so, established him to be the Emperor who leads his people into the Time War (which is reframed as it remaining faithful to Davros’s stated ambition in Remembrance of the Daleks of having the Daleks become the new Lords of Time).

Essentially, we're looking at two conflicting narratives.

Narrative A: The Emperor responsible for the Daleks turning against Davros (AUDIO: Restoration of the Daleks), a.k.a. the Dalek Prime, (PROSE: War of the Daleks) was brought back some time into the Time War as the new absolute leader of the Dalek race, gaining delusions of godhood. (AUDIO: Restoration of the Daleks) After the Time War, and still considering himself the God of all Daleks, he met the Ninth Doctor and Rose Tyler, and died. (TV: The Parting of the Ways)

Narrative B: Immediately after the Civil War, the Davros-less Imperial Daleks get a new Dalek Emperor, (PROSE: Dalek: The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe) originally a member of the Dalek Council. After rebuilding the Empire and Skaro, (PROSE: The Restoration Empire) the Emperor carried out Davros's wish to move against the Time Lords, leading the Daleks into the Last Great Time War. (PROSE: Dalek: The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe) Having gained delusions of godhood along the way, he met the Ninth Doctor and Rose Tyler, and died. (TV: The Parting of the Ways)

One argument for keeping them on a single page, IMO, is that it's going to be quite a conundrum for the character-listing on The Parting of the Ways, and (I imagine) on any other Time-War-era stories featuring "the Dalek Emperor" and which don't take sides in the quarrel over origin stories. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:43, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the full explanation - I certainly see your side now, and agree as far as the narratives are concerned. Also, apologies for my incorrect claims regarding Restoration of the Daleks. Anyway, it's good to get to the crux of the argument.

So the way I see it, having all these accounts on one page is good for simplicity and link-related reasons, however it is also problematic in that it contains at least two separate Daleks on one page. Having two separate pages is equally problematic, if not more so, as it would require a duplication of effort as far as the Time War is concerned, and would be difficult to link to.

I hope you'll consider my alternative suggestions to this crisis - a third page. Namely Dalek Emperor in the Last Great Time War or something along those lines, similar to Gallifreyan history. This would make for easy linking, and with utilisation of {{main|Dalek Emperor in the Last Great Time War}}, we could include it on both articles pretty easily too.

The other alternative here is Dalek Emperor (The Parting of the Ways) being separate from both pages. The justification for this is that Restoration of the Daleks has this emperor being restored from not just from his own past, but from every Dalek Emperor in the multiverse, so there is an argument for him being a different enough individual. This also potentially explains how this Emperor could be both of the aforementioned emperors as well, although that is veering into speculative territory

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on these suggestions, as I agree this indeed has become an interesting puzzle of sorts... Danochy ☎ 02:14, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Both valid and inventive solutions! I'd lean towards Dalek Emperor in the Last Great Time War, because its an "abnormal" title that immediately makes it clear to casual editors (or indeed readers) that there's something screwy going on here. If we have Dalek Emperor (The Parting of the Ways), dabbed like any other page, then people are going to mistakenly assume he's a discrete entity in his own right, rather than a contentious period in the history of two competing Daleks.

I suppose a third option would be to have essentially the contents of that hypothetical page be at Dalek Emperor, possibly with some kind of Master-links-style template pointing to that section. Thoughts there?

Oh, and — I have considered your point on Restoration of the Daleks’s Emperor potentially being a different individual before, but I don't think the text really supports it. Unlike Davros (Palindrome), who is explicitly an amalgamation of parallel-Davroses and not the real deal (and says so), the Emperor in Restoration seems to consider itself to be the dead N-Space Emperor "resurrected". Its first line, if I recall correctly, is "I… am… returning…?!". After his resurrection, the Emperor also gives no signs of having the same knowledge of all timelines as Palindrome!Davros, who, in point of fact, mocks the Emperor with his aforementioned knowledge. It's not clear that the Emperor was "reborn" by quite the same process as the amalgamation-Davros, is what I'm saying, and the audio unambiguously treats him like a proper resurrection, not a simulacrum. So I wouldn't lean into the "doppelgänger" angle too much.

(Heck, at worst, what we'd have there would hardly be different from individuals who have been resurrected in remembrance tanks, and we only have one page for Fitz Kreiner pre- and post-remembrance.) --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 02:27, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Those are all good points, and I'd have to agree with you that Dalek Emperor in the Last Great Time War would be the preferred option. I do like your third option, however I feel it has the potential to overwhelm the page, which is at present restricted to only the essential details regarding the title of Dalek Emperor. Including the full account of the Emperor in the Time War would more than likely take up well over half the page, especially when probable future releases are taken into account. That said, if you feel this wouldn't be an issue, I'd certainly be up for considering it. Danochy ☎ 02:44, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

As a casual reader who’s only recently started editing (so not sure how much weight my opinion really carries here) I do agree a separate Dalek Emperor in the Last Great Time War or adding the dispute to the collective Dalek Emperor page are the most elegant solutions. SherlockTheII ☎ 10:26, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

…Incidentally, how should we dab the page about the "rogue Supreme Dalek" Emperor? Dalek Emperor (Dalek: The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe) is a mouthful, but seems inevitable — unless we take a leap of faith and call him Emperor of the Restoration. Am I missing something? --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 12:51, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Assuming The Restoration Empire (short story) codified the name of the titular empire in-universe, surely he could be Dalek Emperor (Restoration Empire)SherlockTheII ☎ 13:08, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Nah. That completely flies against T:DAB, I'm afraid. Individuals should be disambiguated either by first story of appearance (e.g. Peter (Housewarming)), or, if they're from a parallel universe, by their home universe (e.g. Peter Tyler (Pete's World)). --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 13:13, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

I think we should avoid disambiguating by story altogether, as the only option there would be Dalek Emperor. I think your suggestion of Emperor of the Restoration seems like a good shout, especially since it's used as one of the headings in The Restoration Empire. Danochy ☎ 22:55, October 31, 2020 (UTC)

Okay, seems we have a pretty clear roadmap of the situation. I've performed the skeleton-edits to this page and Dalek Prime, although Dalek Emperor in the Last Great Time War has yet to be created.

We're not quite done here — we can fine-tune this solution, especially when it comes to who goes on which list of appearances, and on what we do with Defender of the Daleks in regards to whether it's just pre-Time War, or if it's from a paradoxical timeline where the LGTW didn't happen, until we get some clarity on the matter in further stories.

But for such a directly current area of the DWU, and with the hitherto-current setup so clearly incorrect, I felt it was important to react and to react quickly. The name Dalek Emperor (Defender of the Daleks), for one, absolutely could not stand, although I've retained it as a redirect for searchability. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 17:37, November 3, 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Glad this could be sorted out amicably for all and I'm especially grateful for the extra knowledge of the Dalek Emperor(s) you brought to the table. As you say, there are a few more things to discuss, which should occur in a new section below. Danochy ☎ 22:24, November 3, 2020 (UTC)

To throw my hat in the ring for this conversation, based on what the newest issue of eaglemoss (judging by the The Restoration Empire (short story) page says) it may soon be established this restoration empire is only part of the Time Lord Victorious timeline. I am not familiar with what the source actually says, but would that complicate things?--Editoronthewiki ☎ 20:29, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, it merely confirms the hitherto-contentious interpretation of the comments about a "paradox" in Defender of the Daleks. We shall see how things play out if the whole of the Restoration Empire as we've seen it only exists in the TLV timeline, but it wouldn't really affect the "Restoration Emperor vs. Dalek Prime" delineation in the Time War and post-Time War worlds, insofar as there is still Dalek: The Astounding History. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 20:41, 5 December 2020 (UTC)