Talk:Goblin ship

Janis vs Janice

Maybe this is just me, but I'm pretty sure that this falls under Talk:Hatbox. Which, you know, I argued against at the time, but the decision was made. Najawin ☎ 03:36, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, the subtlety of the Janis/Janice thing is that the Doctor seems to nickname her "Janice" on a whim as a pop-culture reference, with no prior knowledge of what her name might or might not be; indeed it's not so much that he nickanems her that over any length of time, and simply that he addresses her as such in a quip. (We would not say based on The Day of the Doctor that "Dick Van Dyke" is a name for the Tenth Doctor.) As such, assuming validity of the Message From Janis Goblin and/or the magazine thing her real name being the similar-sounding "Janis Goblin" would seem to be nothing more than a coincidence. (…A coincidence, you say?) Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 03:45, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure. The issue with Janis vs Janice is that the subtitles use "Janice", which isn't the actual pop culture reference. The pop culture reference is "Janis". "Janice" is just the normal transcription you'd write down if you heard the name rather than thought about it in that context. But both are used, and I think Talk:Hatbox is sufficient to allow us to use Janis given that it's the actual pop culture reference. Najawin ☎ 05:09, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Something I noticed upon rewatching the scene is that, when the Doctor shouts "Hit it, Janice", a completely different Goblin starts playing their horn (I'm not an instrument guy, but I think it was a trumpet), while the Goblin Sometimes Known as Janis remains visibly silent. As a theatre graduate like Gatwa, I know one should only say "hit it" to anyone that needs cueing. So, could it be we've all gotten it wrong and that Janice and Janis are two completely different characters with similar sounding names? BananaClownMan ☎ 15:56, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Russell T Davies said "Janice" is a nickname the Doctor gave to Janis Goblin as a reference to The Muppets, so they're the same. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 16:09, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Wait, if "Janice" is just a nickname, then how is this even a debate? Janis Goblin is given as her real name in an official in-character interview for Official Doctor Who Twitter, surely that is proof enough to her true identity? BananaClownMan ☎ 16:23, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

@Najawin, it strikes me that you are wrong — the pop culture reference is in fact spelled Janice. And indeed, RTD's quote as linked by Jack bears out that he very much intended the line to be Hit it, Janice, not Janis; it's not the subtitlters' mistake.

(TRUE FACT: the Doctor calls her Janice because she’s got blonde hair like Janice from the Muppets. But now I realise Janis Goblin is a much funnier joke, so I’ll pretend that’s mine.)Russell T Davies

Thus we are left with, as I originally laid out, the fact that "Janis Goblin" and "Janice" are diegeticaly unrelated names which happen to sound similar. The Goblin is actually called "Janis Goblin" (which we can recognise as a reference to Janis Joplin, but presumably the characters don't notice); independently from this, the Doctor once referred to her as "Janice" on a whim as a reference to the Muppets. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 16:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, I feel I must point this out, Janis cannot be cited to TCoRR; T:VS tells us not to go further than what the source tells you. Otherwise, if we use names even when the source doesn't use them, we completely misrepresent its usage in the DWU and create misinformation, and it would become a slippery slope of citing broader information to sources that don't say anything of the sort.

Is Janis the name of the Goblin? Appears so. But that name cannot be cited to TCoRR.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

17:08, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Is that really the case, though? Nyder is mentioned as the voice in Destination: Skaro on his page and the story's despite his name not being given. Exercise bike refers to Bonnie Langford's character as Melanie Bush, although that name wasn't used in Terror of the Vervoids. Melody Pond (Prequel to The Impossible Astronaut) refers to her by that name when describing the events of The Impossible Astronaut when her name was never given. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 19:08, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Not sure about the exercise bike, as common items from the real world are different from fictional characters. But in regards to be Nyder in Destination: Skaro, he probably shouldn't be called that. Something like [[Nyder|A man]]. (Unless if his name is in the credits or something.)

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

19:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I might not have been clear. I meant that the page calls Mel "Melanie Bush" when that name wasn't used.

Another thing I meant to mention is the Cloister Bell. We hear it in a number of stories where it's not named, but its page and those of the stories it sounds in don't call it [[Cloister Bell|an ominous bell]]. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 19:24, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this discussion better suited for Forum:Loosening T:NO RW. Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 19:30, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't say so given the forum's would seem to be about using information on real world topics in articles. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 19:35, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I was unaware of the Muppets connection, which is why I thought this came under Talk:Hatbox, as it was just spelling in different stories for the same underlying reference based on IU knowledge. Given this, I completely cede that the two names are different and should be used on different pages. Najawin ☎ 21:00, 28 January 2024 (UTC)