Talk:The Doctor/Archive 7

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Erasing ALL knowledge of The Doctor? I don't think so

According to this entry, The Doctor "erased knowledge of him on 21st century Earth...and later did so himself throughout all of time and space."

Clara Oswin Oswald erased all knowledge of the Doctor from the Dalek database in Asylum of the Daleks (TV story) but I don't recall at any point that The Doctor in The Angels Take Manhattan (TV story) erased all knowledge of himself EVERYWHERE. If that was true then every single one of his companions (including River Song) would have no memory of him which seems, from a simple storyline perspective, highly unlikely. Look at The Snowmen (TV story), he had allies there who knew all about The Doctor. 63.143.217.227^{talk to me} 21:12, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

River Song said he's been erasing himself from every database in existence, actually. And every database is not everyone's memory, dude.

I'll bet he didn't bother to hit up the UNIT databases - we see that they still know of him in The Power of Three, plus, plenty of personal knowledge about him in that group.--ComicBookGoddess ☎ 21:30, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

I think 63's issue is not what River said or didn't say, but rather what the article says, that is, "The Doctor had ordered Mickey Smith to erase knowledge of him on 21st century Earth, and later did so himself throughout all of time and space." The article doesn't use the word "database", it uses "knowledge", and that's what 63 is trying to point out. Shambala108 ☎ 21:44, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

That's certainly a reasonable distinction.--ComicBookGoddess ☎ 06:13, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Amount of incarnations

So, I'm confused. does the doctor get 13 regenerations,and therefore 14 lives, or 12 regenerations, and therefore 13 lives?

(Added headline to avoid confusion). He can regenerate twelve times and can therefore have thirteen lives (although Moffat will probably come up with some clever trick). --CGW ☎ 20:10, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Dialogue on screen has always made it clear, he gets 13 "incarnations" not 13 regenerations, therefore he can only regenerate 12 times (under normal conditions). This was confirmed in several episodes but off the top of my head "Deadly Assassin" (it was confirmed the Master had failed to rejuvenate into his final form) "The Ultimate Foe" (it is confirmed the Valeyard is an extension of the Doctor's penultimate rejuvenation being created as an off shoot of his 12th).

The question "how many regenerations does the Doctor have left?" however is much less straight forward for many reasons:

1. We do not know how many incarnations existed between the on screen 8th and 9th, while Eccleston is officially the 9th actor, it isn't clear whether he actually is the 9th doctor. However the prophecy quoted by the Silence seems to confirm Smith is the 11th Doctor.

2. We do not know what effect River sacrificing her rejuvenations had on the Doctor. We know from Trial of a Time Lord and Doctor Who, that regenerations are transferable, and from the Five Doctors they are renewable as the Time Lords promised The Master a new Regeneration Cycle.

3. It has long been stated The Master had used up all his regenerations prior to the Time War, yet he was seen (upon his return) regenerating twice. It is conceivable therefore that other Time Lords conscripted to fight in the Time War were given new regenerations too, including The Doctor. --Pittstop ☎ 09:06, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

John Hurt's Doctor

Where should Hurt's Doctor be added on this page? 75.141.237.237^{talk to me} 20:55, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't the War Doctor have his photo added to the main rotating profile image. He might not use the title, but he is still the character depicted in the profile page. 92.232.180.244^{talk to me} 11:39, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed on this, but there might be a deliberate wait on the update because of the Twelfth Doctor's concurrent introduction- his debut in costume in August will no doubt insinuate a change to the slideshow. Two birds with one stone, I suppose, but just in case this is going unchecked, I've raised the issue directly on the talk page of Docpic. --Thunderush ☎ 18:41, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

Longest serving Doctor: most television stories?

While I know the Fourth Doctor has had the most individual episodes, I don't believe he has had the most individual television stories, at least, not anymore. I'm pretty sure the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors have had more individual stories than Baker's Doctor has. But my question is, should I count prequels and other mini episodes when totalling them? And should two parters be considered a single story? Memnarc ☎ 22:35, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Can someone please explain why at 7 years on screen Tom Baker is no longer mentioned in the longest serving section. Ignoring Time Crash, no other actor has played the Doctor on screen that long, therefore Tom Baker IS the longest serving Doctor in terms of time spent in the role, on screen on the main show (excluding wider media).

From bookended rejuvenation episodes, not even Sylvester Mccoy beats seven years.

--Pittstop ☎ 08:19, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

From bookended rejuvenation? You mean from Rani part one through the television movie? Because I'm pretty sure that's slightly under nine years, rather than the 6 years, 9 months from Spiders part 6 through Logopolis part 4...

Whether mini-episodes count as television all depends on the mini-episode. Anything "A Prequel" in their name or are "watch the prequel now" sort of deals, aren't television; they're either web or iTunes.

For me personally, I'd count two-parters as a single story. I believe that per Planet of the Dead being celebrated as number 200, that means that Utopia, The Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords are technically officially one whole story. I personally count them as such, as well as A Good Man Goes to War and Let's Kill Hitler, while Turn Left, The Stolen Earth and Journey's End are a one-parter (not "standalone" per se, but one part) and a two-parter respectively. Episodes ARE counted in a different way to the older show's serials, especially considering series 7's lack of multi-parters (though obviously absolutely no-one's counting, say, The Rebel Flesh / The Almost People / A Good Man Goes to War / Let's Kill Hitler, or the first half of Martha's season as a long single parter). -- Tybort (talk page) 08:43, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

I see, however, I still think it is worth noting that Tom Baker held the record for the longest serving Doctor first--Pittstop ☎ 09:07, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I totalled them all up and, at least at this point, not including minisodes, prequels or animations, the Tenth Doctor has appeared in 36 television stories (if you count Turn Left as separate from Stolen Earth and Journey's End, which the site does). Interestingly, the Eleventh Doctor has appeared in either 37 stories (if you consider A Good Man Goes to War and Let's Kill Hitler as being separate stories) or 36 (if you don't). The totals with minisodes (not prequels, since they didn't air on TV) are 39 for Ten (or 41 if you include the animated episodes) and 41/40 for Eleven. These totals will probably be subject to change by year's end though. Memnarc ☎ 00:40, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

"Favoured Incarnations"

In the section on which incarnations liked or disliked previous versions, there is no mention of the meetings between the first, second and third, in which it is fairly obvious the first dislikes both since he refers to them as "a dandy and a clown". The second and third bicker constantly in their 2 televised meetings, suggesting they tolerate but dislike one another. Nor is there any mention of how the first, second and third seemed to all approve of the fifth during their meeting in "the Five Doctors". Nor is there any mention of the sixth and second's meeting in "the Two Doctors", dialogue in that episode implied the two appreciated each other. --Pittstop ☎ 13:30, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

What's up with the infoboxes

Why are they like that? Something's messed up.174.116.106.68^{talk to me} 17:38, September 30, 2013 (UTC)

It's not the infoboxes. It's the entire site, but it just affects the infoboxes more than other items. It's either something that's being worked on or a bug that needs to be fixed. Shambala108 ☎ 18:06, September 30, 2013 (UTC)

Paragraph on regeneration

The exact circumstances surrounding the Doctor's regenerations were known with the exception of his eighth. (TV: The Tenth Planet, et. al.) Although vague at times as to how many incarnations he had in his lifetime, an incident during the Doctor's fifth incarnation clarified the point. When asked by the First Doctor what regeneration he was up to, the Fifth Doctor answered, "Fourth," leading his first incarnation to exclaim, "Good heavens, so there are five of me now!" (TV: The Five Doctors) Similarly, while he was Craig Owens' lodger in Aickman Road, the Eleventh Doctor explicitly called himself the eleventh. (TV: The Lodger) Clara also directly identified this incarnation of the Doctor as the eleventh. (TV: The Name of the Doctor)

I understand over on Talk:The Doctor (The Name of the Doctor) there's contention over whether what we see in Night of the Doctor is a reveal of what the eighth regeneration is, or deliberate sleight-of-hand from Moffat, who has been proven to lie when promoting episodes (on top, the in-narrative evidence of regeneration being just off screen). That said, while I still think it's accurate to say Nine is Nine, Ten is Ten and Eleven is Eleven no matter whether Eighth is followed by Nine or "War Doctor", (the "War Doctor" guy doesn't actually go by "Doctor", so Nine is still the ninth incarnation known as "Doctor"), from what we supposedly see in Night, Nine is not the eighth regeneration and Eleven is not the tenth regeneration. Supposedly. I feel that the easiest solution for this paragraph specifically is to leave it out, and THEN amend it once the full feature-length special clarifies things. -- Tybort (talk page) 17:22, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

So now that the 50th is over, the way I understand the doctor count. Someone please correct me If im wrong: 1st Doctor=1st Incarnation=William Hartnell 2nd Doctor=2nd Incarnation=Patrick Troughton 3rd Doctor=3rd Incarnation=Jon Pertwee 4th Doctor=4th Incarnation=Tom Baker 5th Doctor=5th Incarnation=Peter Davison 6th Doctor=6th Incarnation=Colin Baker 7th Doctor=7th Incarnation=Sylvester McCoy 8th Doctor=8th Incarnation=Paul McGann War Doctor=9th Incarnation=John Hurt 9th Doctor=10th Incarnation=Christopher Eccleston 10th Doctor=11th Incarnation=David Tennet 11th Doctor=12th Incarnation=Matt Smith 12th Doctor=13th Incarnation=Peter Capaldi If this is correct, then I think we can assume 2 things: One, when Matt Smith regenerates into Peter Capaldi the Valeyard, according to lore, will be created. Two, that unless the writers get clever, Peter Capaldi will play the final incarnation of the doctor. 71.60.37.160^{talk to me} 08:01, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

The War Doctor

I notice that The war Doctor, as portrayed by John Hurt, has not been added to the slide-show-scroller of the Doctor's incarnations in the infobox. Is there any particular reason for this? - MrSiriusBlack ☎ 10:19, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

New regenerations

• The Time Of The Doctor SPOILER ALERT

According to what the Doctor said, he has been granted new regeneration cycle. I believe the cycle defines whole set of 12 regenerations. This was great way, since the Master was given additional regenerations from Time Lords before, proving it is not directly biological limit, rather than that, it is in control of Time Lords.

Since War Doctor and Tenth's midlife "meta-crysis" regeneration now canonically count, 11th Doctor marks the end of previous cycle and this new cycle might get us up to 23rd Doctor, hopefully for another few decades. --TakeruDavis ☎ 01:30, December 26, 2013 (UTC)

Story count inaccuracy

"Despite having played the Doctor for less time and in fewer episodes than Tom Baker, Matt Smith holds the record for the most appearances in live-action television stories, with a total of 38, narrowly beating out David Tennant. If minisodes are counted, this total increases to 42." This isn't very true , is it? Tom Baker appeared in 41 stories (not including Shada), and Matt Smith appeared in 39. That's two more to Baker. He also doesn't narrowly beat David Tennant, who only appeared in 36 "stories". This implies Tennant is a lot higher than he actually is - he is five places below Baker. This whole "record" Smith supposedly holds isn't true in the slightest. 86.139.19.168^{talk to me} 00:34, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Duration of Seven and Eight's lifespans

• Matt Smith's Doctor is also the longest-lived Doctor onscreen, spending at least 1500 years of his life in this incarnation (600 during his regular run and 900 during his exile on Trenzalore). The Seventh and Eighth Doctors spent even larger periods of time in spin-off media (AUDIO: Frozen Time, Orbis)

Corrected the seemingly erroneous "1500" bit already, but both of the figures for Seven and Eight seem wrong. For one, Seven was in some sort of cryogenic coma as I recall, while Eight (at least according to the page of Orbis) only spent 600 years on the planet Orbis. -- Tybort (talk page) 21:46, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

How many Doctors will there be

I was watching the special video right before the film premiere of the Day of the Doctor, the one where the Doctor tells you about how 3D works but there was something very interesting that I heard.

The Eleventh Doctor (Matt Smith) said that he travelled in time to watch the 100 year special for the show and he said there were 57 Doctors, a total of 44 for from what year I am from.

This video is highly non-canon but it is still there, it is on Youtube actually.What do you guys think? Will there be more Doctors?– The preceding unsigned comment was added by 111.68.38.102 (talk).

Since we don't know the answer to that question, and can only guess or speculate, this topic does not belong on this page, per Tardis:Discussion policy. If you'd like to speculate about this, you can take this topic to Howling:The Howling. Thanks. Shambala108 ☎ 16:45, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Question

Each of the Doctor's incarnation's has their special article. Shouldn't the cancelled 12th incarnation of the doctor have it's own article too?

(The incarnation that 10th doctor was supposed to regenerate into, but he sent the regeneration energy into his Spare Hand, thus cancelling process and creating his human Meta-Crisis)

Wario64 ☎ 14:44, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

It does have its own article, at Meta-Crisis Doctor. Shambala108 ☎ 14:49, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't mean Meta-Crisis. That was created from Doctor's Spare Hand by energy from regeneration. I meant the incarnation 10th Doctor will regenerate into at the end of The Stolen Earth and beggining of Journey's End, was it not for regeneration energy being transfered into Spare Hand. The meta-crisis is a side product of that regeneration.

"to prevent his full transformation into another form."

I mean the "another form" Wario64 ☎ 20:33, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Well, why would we do that? We don't have anything to put on the page, other than "This incarnation of the Doctor never existed because the Tenth Doctor preserved his body during a regeneration." We might as well create pages for the faces offered to the Doctor at the end of The War Games: potential third incarnations that never came to pass. I just don't see the need for the page. --Bold Clone 20:39, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

In addition to what Bold Clone says, I also left you a message on your talk page when you tried to create a page for this "other form". In short, this wiki only cares about what already happened, not what will happen or what could have happened. In particular, we don't allow any speculation. Hope that clears things up. Shambala108 ☎ 14:27, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Family variables

Should all of the family members mentioned in the infoboxes for First Doctor, Tenth Doctor and Eleventh Doctor be mentioned on the one for the Doctor's overview page, or should, say, Jenny be specifically the Tenth Doctor's daughter and River the Eleventh Doctor's spouse? -- Tybort (talk page) 17:40, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

They should definitely not be on this page, especially in the case of River and Jenny. Shambala108 ☎ 17:53, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

Doctor with the most hours performed

It is no longer accurate that Paul McGann has the most hours of performed Doctor Who; he has been surpassed by Tom Baker, but I'm not sure when. I'm editing the "longest serving Doctor" section to reflect this, and posting my math below, reflecting the situation as of November 2015. I excluded multi-doctor stories (The Four Doctors and The Light at the End) and the TV version of Shada for simplicity.

Paul McGann:

• One 1.5 hour TV movie
• 31 two-hour Big Finish main range stories - 62 hours
• 1 one-hour subscriber bonus and 1 one-hour story released with DWM - 2 hours
• 34 one-hour Eighth Doctor Adventures stories - 34 hours
• 5 four-hour boxsets (4 Dark Eyes and 1 Doom Coalition) - 20 hours
• Shada - 2 hours

for a total of 121.5 hours.

Tom Baker:

• 172 twenty-five minute TV episodes - 72 hours
• 29 one-hour Fourth Doctor Adventures stories - 29 hours
• 1 one-hour subscriber bonus - 1 hour
• The Fourth Doctor Boxset and Philip Hinchcliffe Presents, five hours each - 10 hours
• 3 two-hour Novel Adaptations - 6 hours
• 3 five-hour AudioGO boxsets - 15 hours
• 1 three-hour radio drama and 1 half-hour radio drama - 3.5 hours

for a total of 136.5 hours. P&P talk contribs 04:23, November 8, 2015 (UTC)

The Doctor's first name? ((SPOILER ALERT))

• • The Doctor's name??? (SPOILER ALERT)

There was an exchange in the Zygon inversion that has me curious.

DOCTOR: What’s your name? OSGOOD: Osgood. DOCTOR: No, no, no. Your first name? OSGOOD: What’s your first name? DOCTOR: Basil. OSGOOD: Petronella.

((later))

OSGOOD: It doesn’t matter which of us is which. OSGOOD 2: All that matters is that Osgood lives. OSGOOD: And nothing’s going to stop us! DOCTOR: You’re a credit to your species, Petronella Osgood. OSGOOD: No, Basil. OSGOOD 2: We’re a credit to both of them.

I think he lied, but what if he didn't? 172.90.119.154^{talk to me} 16:34, November 8, 2015 (UTC)

This is currently being discussed at Thread:184238. --DCLM ☎ 16:42, November 8, 2015 (UTC)

Relatives and granddaughters

Hey, do you think the Doctor ever had CLOSE relatives? I mean, we all know about Susan (I hope you do. If not, she was his granddaughter in the old Hartnell episodes), but this would mean he had a daughter, too. And the reason Susan didn't travel with the Doctor anymore was because of a boy she liked, so this would probably mean he had a great-granddaughter as well! Overwhelmed yet? He ALSO had a genetic anomaly daughter due to an unplanned tissue sample (long story) and SHE went off to explore the world, meaning ANOTHER possible grandchild. Wow.

As composer

The Doctor is known to have composed at least two different pieces of music: the one heard in Music of the Spheres (which may or may not be canon given it's special nature), and "Clara", the in-universe version of Murray Gold's Clara theme, as indicated in "Hell Bent" (though the Doctor doesn't actually say he composed it, dialogue and the fact he gives the song the same name as his lost companion makes this fact self-evident). This should be mentioned somewhere, especially if there are any other franchise references to the Doctor composing other works. This is a cross-Doctor thing, so not specific to one incarnation. 68.146.233.86^{talk to me} 23:43, March 25, 2016 (UTC)

Doctor's Mother and Father

I didn't want to post this in each page, so I'm posting it in Dr Talk.

In Family Of Blood, it is shown that the Dr has some valid memories of being a Time Lord, such as when he says he learned yo draw on Galifrey. He then states that his Mother was a nurse and his Father was a watch maker.

These may be wholey fictional, or wholey true. My feeling us that they are somewhere in between, filtered by his 1913 psyche. His Mother was some type of medical professional, as implied by the "nurse". His Father on the otherhand is a bit more of a mystery, "watchmaker" could just allude to him being a Time Lord, or maybe he actually grew Tardises (Tardi??). Kgk4569 ☎ 12:36, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

ideal image– The preceding unsigned comment was added by Quicksilver999 (talk • contribs) .

Uh...something's wrong with the 'Docpic'

The infobox slideshow (or 'Docpic') seems to have completely messed itself up. It mashes all Doctors and shows Twelve's eyes at every transition. Is this deliberate, or is it just me, or...? OfficialBBC ☎ 16:03, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

I'm having a slightly different issue (only seeing Twelve's eyes and all of One) but I know this template is being worked on, so give it a couple of days and if it's still acting wonky, we can bring it to the attention of the admin who's working on it. Shambala108 ☎ 16:06, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

With respect, Shambala, it has been nearly four years since you said 'give it a couple of days', and for me it is still mashed up like OfficialBBC stated. 92.8.224.210^{talk to me} 23:04, April 4, 2018 (UTC)

Yep, I'm writing from 2019 and the pic is an utter mess for me, also. The order seems to be 13-1-13-2-13-3-13-4-13-5-13-6-13-7-13-8-13-9-13-10-13-11-13-12-13-12-13-12-13-12-13... with the pic sometimes partially fading back to a Doctor I already a saw a while ago. This makes for a highly illogical and irritating viewing experience.

Additionally, I feel like the pictures change from one to the other way too slowly. Having to wait for the pic to go through all the incarnations doesn't represent this character too well. Please do something about it, or just start using a collage of selected actors. Thanks. // Joey, a nerd. Talk: fi en 13:24, February 3, 2019 (UTC)

13

Why isn't the Thirteenth Doctor in the DocPic? The main picture on her article should be alright to use. Ben Moore512 ☎ 14:06, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Pronoun Issue

I can't find the discussion posts where this issue is discussed. I wrote the article in a way that it doesn't explicitly state a pronoun. Writing "they" and "their" makes the page very difficult to read, and a lot of the time it's grammatically poor when it's hard to decipher who a sentence is referring to. "They" usually refers to more than one person, so it's very difficult on the average reader. I have taken out pronouns completely which shouldn't be an issue for anyone. It's not like I've simply reverted the edits, but I have worded the page in a way which makes sure no reference to a pronoun is used, like what Wikipedia has done. As far as I'm aware, there is zero reason to revert this. The article reads better and by taking out pronouns completely (expect for when referring to specific incarnations), it essentially settles the debate of which ones to use. Mysterious Editor ☎ 21:59, October 9, 2018 (UTC)

Mysterious Editor should consult their talk page and refrain in the future from settling debates unilaterally. For everyone else, the governing policy is stated in Tardis:Doctors. Amorkuz ☎ 22:03, October 9, 2018 (UTC)

I have read Tardis:Doctors and my edits don't go against anything there at all? If nobody reverted what I changed, nobody would even notice. Mysterious Editor ☎ 22:06, October 9, 2018 (UTC)

Your edits implement a policy that you have unilaterally decided on: namely, not to use any pronouns when referring to the Doctor in general. This is not the policy of this wiki. This is also not how language works. Pronouns are an essential part of each language, and their purpose is specifically to improve comprehension. You made it clear in your above post that you had taken it upon yourself to decide for everybody: cf. "which shouldn't be an issue for anyone" and "it essentially settles the debate of which ones to use". I repeat once again that you cannot decide these matters unilaterally. The current debate is ongoing. There were two prior debates Thread:137391 and Thread:152896. The community has made a decision. Your opinion is relevant but it will not overrule the existing collective decisions. Amorkuz ☎ 22:18, October 9, 2018 (UTC)

I'll admit I didn't realise those discussions existed. However the latter was closed in 2014 so it's outdated, and the other one's last post was in 2016. Does this mean the "they" pronoun has been here for years? I assumed it had only been added in the last few days after the arrival of the female Doctor. Mysterious Editor ☎ 22:21, October 9, 2018 (UTC)

OK I've started a fresh discussion thread here Thread:238794. Hopefully it's in the right place and can be discussed :) Mysterious Editor ☎ 22:40, October 9, 2018 (UTC)

This is the definition of hubris. After being informed that a discussion is ongoing, you opened a new discussion of your own. The above mentioned thread is closed as redundant given the ongoing discussion, of which User:Mysterious Editor was personally informed at his talk page and additionally here. Amorkuz ☎ 22:53, October 9, 2018 (UTC)