Talk:Revolutions of Terror (comic story)

Master, Osiran etc. comic book categories

This maybe very misleading for a reader. One might see the Osirans as a premonition, but a reader searching for the Master in this story would be sorely disappointed. I have to reread it to see how exactly these visions interact with the Doctor. But my first feeling is that such categories harm more than help. Amorkuz ☎ 23:51, January 1, 2017 (UTC)

I have not read the comic story in question, so cannot offer much of a specific opinion. But stories such as The Next Doctor, The Eleventh Hour and The Lodger are not appearances for every Doctor shown, except for the incumbent incarnation. The End of Time and The Eleventh Hour are not Racnoss stories. Journey's End is not the third story to a Malmooth stories category, either. Just because something appears in some visual sense, does not mean that they make an appearance in the story to justify a category, if that makes any sense.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 04:47, January 2, 2017 (UTC)

Rassilon?

I'm looking at the image of supposedly Rassilon, but all I can see is just a Time Lord. Moreover, Time Lord with the red head gear, which Rassilon is rarely seen wearing. The face seems rather indescript (unlike the easily recognisable Simm's Master). My question is: How do we know it is Rassilon? Amorkuz ☎ 23:04, March 6, 2017 (UTC)

Does he have his gauntlet, perhaps?
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 00:35, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

That's just the thing. We barely see anything. To me it looks like a standard Time Lord figure, obscured by a larger Simms head. I've uploaded the image. Note also that this whole series is set before The End of Time, and, hence, before the Doctor meets the new Rassilon played by Timothy Dalton (to the best of our, viewers' knowledge). So it should not be looking like his face. Amorkuz ☎ 08:54, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

My bad, there is Rassilon, but not in the image I was looking at before. There is his gauntlet alright. This places the whole series after the main events of The End of Time, during the final farewell tour. Strange. Amorkuz ☎ 20:01, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

We have the Doctor's adventures with Gabby before The Waters of Mars on the Tenth Doctor's page. Is this not correct? In the picture you posted earlier, it did look like the Master from The End of Time, longer blond hair, stubble and all.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 20:08, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Different Rassilon images

Yes, I came to believe this to be incorrect. I also realised that this particular look of Simms' Master, with stubble and, importantly, the hood, which he did not wear as the Prime Minister, is from The End of Time. And Dalton's Rassilon with a gauntlet is from there too. The previous appearance of Rassilon, in The Five Doctors, doesn't look anything like this, at the very least, he has a beard there (disclaimer: I haven't see the story myself). There is, of course, Warrington's audio Rassilon with very limited cover images. But I really don't remember him ever using the gauntlet and his skin colour is much darker than depicted in the comic. In short, all signs point at The End of Time. If the Doctor's fears are taken from that story, it must have already happened for him.

I believe the placing before the Waters of Mars is based on a quote I just erased (sorry, here it is). It says: "He’s just rejected Christina De Souza as a potential companion — so what makes Gabriella Gonzalez from Brooklyn any different?" So I think this "just" was interpreted literally. But it could be an "extended" just, so to say. In fact, in the same interview, he says "he’s just lost Donna, the person he was coming to regard as his best mate". One of those "justs" must be not immediate. So why not both? Amorkuz ☎ 20:32, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

"Is there something horrific in her future that sends the Doctor down an even darker 'Time Lord Triumphant' path, or will she be his final success before it all falls apart?" Before it all falls apart. Doesn't sound to me that he's already done The End of Time and is on his farewell tour. "And why haven't we seen her around on the TV show?" If the answer was it's because this all takes place during the last few minutes of The End of Time, he wouldn't even be asking that. That one frame seems to contradict everything we know about the intent behind these stories. I find it very hard to believe, from reading the interview that you linked to, that this is meant to be during the Tenth Doctor's stalled regeneration. I think they messed up their continuity, frankly.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 20:45, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Here's the thing, it's made clear in the comics that Donna was the last person to travel with him (in that issue where Gabby finds Turlough's diary and Leela's cloths, to be precise-ish). From what I can gather, the comics where he travels with Emily Winter lead directly into Waters of Mars. CoT ? 20:40, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

That as well. Again, I'm seeing some inconsistencies going on here. I haven't read this one, though, so I can't give my own take, necessarily. This doesn't seem to add up.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 20:45, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Doctor is afraid of Rassilon

Posting the image in question, after messing up and getting some help from OttselSpy25. CoT, I can't recognise the story you mean. When was Leela's diary found? Amorkuz ☎ 20:51, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I am catching up on your comments. Yes, it begins to look now more like a continuity mess up. I think I agree with you. After all, it never made sense to me that it could be The End of Time. I was actually trying to edit it away until I found images linked to it. However, the interview does not have the same weight as in-universe visions of fears. So I would prefer to track that Leela business. Amorkuz ☎ 20:58, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

I can't remember! But there's this segment done in the "Gabby diary" style where she finds Turlough's diary under a plant and mentions that the Doctor's last companion was Donna. If I remember correctly. Of course, you could just use the first page of the first issue, which says Donna was his last companion. CoT ? 20:59, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Ok, give me a day for checking. Amorkuz ☎ 21:03, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Are we sure this isn't meant to be foreshadowing? IDW did a bunch of that around 2010. The Doctor actually met his future self in one comic. I haven't read this story, so maybe it's super-clear from the way it's framed that this can't be the case.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 21:19, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

I also think it's either foreshadowing, or simply continuity errors. As much as Titan does try to keep TV continuity good and steady, they do mess up sometimes. For example: Doctor Who: The Eleventh Doctor is set between series 5 and 6. Still, on one of the early issues, there is a picture of Clara Oswald among pictures of the Doctors companions. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 21:26, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Titan's comicline features heavy forshadowing towards the events of 'The End of Time,' and I doubt something like this would have been included on accident. OS25 (Talk) 22:01, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Foreshadowing, sure. Songs not ending prematurely and stuff.

However, in this case, the situation is quite different. A Cerebravore delivers a telepathic attack against the Doctor, twice. Here's a description of the mechanics of such attacks from the intro to Issue 3: "First comes a telepathic attack, a magnification of a person's worst fear, to weaken their prey. Then the cerebravores use the host to manifest physically - and sow even more fear!" This is a close quote from in-comic description from Issue 2. So all these images the Doctor sees are "manifestations of his worst fears". (Let me state that I think him being afraid of an abstract Time Lord is doubtful to say the least, but this is what we get from the story.) So he is afraid of Cybermen, of the Beast, of Sutekh, of the Master, of Time Lords and of Rassilon. Almost all of that makes some sense. But you cannot be afraid of images you have not seen yet. The Doctor has never been shown clairvoyant (methinks) in the vulgar sense of the word. He has a reason to fear Rassilon, but there was no story prior to The End of Time showing his encounter with Dalton's Rassilon. So why would his fear take this particular face? The same goes for Simm's Master, with even less space for speculation. Unfortunately, here the foreshadowing explanation does not fit. Amorkuz ☎ 22:26, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Doctor's last companion was Donna. Actually, come to think of it, I think this description fits absolutely any story in the post-Season 4 specials. Obviously, not with the meaning of companion from Category:Tenth Doctor companions, but from a point of view of a non-wiki-affiliated writer:

• Jackson Lake did not travel in the TARDIS.
• Christina de Souza was clearly mentioned in the interview as not taken as a companion.
• Adelaide Brooke made one trip and committed suicide.
• I don't know enough about Dreamland
• Wilfred Mott is also hardly a travelling companion.

I am searching for an exact quote, but it may not be very decisive in the end. Amorkuz ☎ 22:44, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Found it. It's from Cindy, Cleo and the Magic Sketchbook.

He has helpers - companions, friends. I know there have been many others before me. I found some sketchbooks - mostly drawings of landscapes - underneath some potted plants in the arboretum. They were singed by someone called Turlough. He doesn't talk about them too much, although he's absent-mindedly called me "Donna" a couple of times. I think Donna is my immediate predecessor. He keeps talking about going to see someone called Sarah - he says I'd like her, she's a writer.Excerpt from Gabby Gonzalez's sketchbook

And it's even less conclusive. First of all, it's just Gabby's guess based on whose name is mentioned more often. Secondly, a "predecessor" is such a vague term: is it the last travelling companion? the last female travelling companion? the last human from 21st century Earth female companion? Amorkuz ☎ 22:55, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

And here's a quote from the "Previously" segment of Issue 1:

...but the universe can also be a dark and dangerous place - as the Doctor's most recent companion, Donna Noble, found to her cost. Forced to leave her behind, the Doctor has since been wandering alone. But no matter how far he travels, or how long, something always brings him back to Earth.Semi-in-universe narration from Issue 1 of the story

Again, the way I read it, he is "wandering" alone, which does not preclude him from having one-off adventures. Indeed, we know from the interview that he at least already had adventures with Jackson Lake and Christina de Souza. So such adventures still qualify as him traveling alone. As I said above, he wasn't really traveling with anyone at any time between Season 4 and Season 5, before meeting Gabby. Amorkuz ☎ 23:01, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

He's had quite a number of full-time travelling companions. Heather McCrimmon, Wolfgang Ryter, Emily Winter, Matthew Finnegan, Majenta Pryce. Not nessecarily in that order. His travels with Witer and Finnegan lead directly into Waters of Mars. CoT ? 23:54, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Yep, I suspected as much. And these all are from comic books. In some cases, to the best of my understanding, from the IDW ones that Titan actually has a license to sell, so one hopes the writers are aware of them. Okay, let's try to spin it. Does any of those full-time companions appear after Waters of Mars? Amorkuz ☎ 00:02, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

Well no, because all the other comic companions were introduced right after Donna left. Does that really matter anyways though. It could be a goof, just like in Year 1 of the Titan Twelfth Doctor series they drew Rassilon as Dalton despite it being a version of Rassilon from the Dark Times. It could also be foreshadowing, Gabby's seen quite a few visions of Ood Sigma saying something about a song ending. CoT ? 00:24, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I am beginning to think that it better be left alone. However, what I was thinking was this. It is stated that he did not have travelling companions after Donna. These guys you mentioned are traveling companions. Ergo, they must be after Gabby. And they are known to be before Waters of Mars. Ergo, The End of Time must be an honest mistake. We can close our eyes and not see Dalton and not see the hood and not make any connections.

In fact, maybe this is the safest thing to do: move Rassilon to the References section without pinpointing the story. Move the Master in the same place, not stating the story but keeping a link to Simm's Master.

Because my attempt to get some profound information from image analysis failed miserably. The link to The End of Time is really really controversial. Gabby is not present there to have a premonition. Foreshadowing is very much against the setting of this story. So maybe we should not be making this link at all, or at least not in a definite manner of "The Doctor has a vision of events from The End of Time". Amorkuz ☎ 00:42, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

Not sure where to reply. Bottom seems good. On the whole fears thing: he absolutely knew Rassilon in the Time War, what he had become, what he was planning in the final days. That much is made clear in The End of Time. And he's still pretty pissed off about it in Hell Bent. Why should it surprise us that his greatest nightmares involve his lost people, and the Lord President who'd gone wrong and wanted to destroy all physical reality? He's still pretty scarred by the War, remember. And Dalton Rassilon is Rassilon from the last days of the Time War.

I suppose from their standpoint, Donna was the last companion. I mean, maybe they just don't care about Doctor Who Adventures or Doctor Who Magazine. Maybe the writers are not sufficiently informed about past IDW companions and storylines, and just chose to throw those out the window when considering the stories that they're doing. Regardless, ignoring companions between the last TV companion and now with Gabby is simply a continuity error to be ignored. Students who died in the Class novels don't get added to the Coal Hill School Roll of Honours Board, and the prose and audio continuities of the Eighth Doctor's life are practically irreconcilable. Skaro has been destroyed, to appear again, too many times to keep track of. Intentional placemarks (landmarks is the real word, right) will be found with regards to the narrative of the TV series. So based on all this evidence: does it still make sense for this all to take place prior to The End of Time? Admittedly, that Sarah Jane reference makes it sound like it just might be the farewell tour.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 05:10, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that he really isn't dying of radiation over the course of three years of comics, doesn't Four Doctors place the Wilfred Mott "knock four times" moment in the Doctor's future? CoT ? 05:19, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

Also, the Ten Titan team totally care about DWM! They've mentioned Stockbridge and brought back Shayde. CoT ? 05:23, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

Oh, nice! I really do need to read them all. Yes, Four Doctors seems to irrefutably take place before The End of Time for Ten. The most weight of evidence seems to support his time with Gabby taking place sometime before TEOT. Rassilon, I can understand, not even just as foreshadowing but because of the Doctor's time in the Last Great Time War, and I guess the Master returning is another one of his fears? Despite not wanting him to die in the first place?
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 05:42, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

I can agree to this reading (also always happy to see writers caring about continuity more than me). The only questionable element remaining would then be the particular clothes worn by the Master, which seems to be taken from TEOT. But surely we cannot exclude the Master wearing such an outfit before. This can be safely ignored. And, of course, this face of the Master the Doctor has seen in Last of the Time Lords. So, if we agree that travels with Gabby predate TEOT, here is a possible rewording to the continuity section: the Master gets redirected to the last two episodes of Season 4. Rassilon gets a designation "whom the Doctor remembers from the Time War" and an addition: "The Doctor will later encounter this incarnation of Rassilon again in TEOT." Shall I make the change?Amorkuz ☎ 21:26, March 8, 2017 (UTC)

Just remembered: they actually referenced a DWM story The Way of All Flesh in the first issue of this very story. So care they do. Amorkuz ☎ 00:03, March 9, 2017 (UTC)

Just to give credit where credit is due. Now that I've finished processing the story, I have to agree with placing the story right after Planet of the Dead. In fact, this does not really require any out-of-the-universe sources. The Doctor's reaction to Gabby saying "No song should end too soon" is speaking for itself. It is him remembering almost the same phrase from Carmen's prophecy, delivered in Planet of the Dead. That this alone gained Gabby a trip is a testament to how fresh and troubling it was for him, making it very likely that this happens immediately after. On the other hand, it would be hard to understand his reaction if he were on the last tour. If he were dying from radiation poisoning, already knowing how his song is ending and more or less when, there would be very little reason to pay any attention to this turn of phrase. Amorkuz ☎ 22:29, March 12, 2017 (UTC)