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== The Ten Masters ==


1. The Koschei Master - Seen in flash-backs in The Sound of Drums, The End of Time and big finish audio, Master appeared in The Missing Adventures, The Dark Path
== How to refer to each incarnation of the Master ==


2. The Original Master - Roger Delgado
Well, I think some of us were hoping it'd be simpler, but the fact that [[Talk:The Master (The TV Movie)]] discussion and [[Talk:The Master (The Keeper of Traken)]] are going on at the same time with seemingly different ideas made me think we should just discuss this. '''This is not necessarily meant to be a discussion to determine a name or page title for each Master; those should still happen on their talk page. This is just a discussion on having consistency between them.'''


This long comment started as something I was going to write for [[Talk:The Master (The TV Movie)]], with me saying I think it should either be both [[Tremas Master]] and [[Bruce Master]], or both [[The Master (The TV Movie)]] and [[The Master (The Keeper of Traken)]], for consistency. …But then in the latter case, arguably some of the others should also use disambiguation terms. I personally think that for the "main" Masters (i.e. those not ambiguous or from another reality) should either all use descriptions for page titles, with the ''possible'' exception of [[The Master (Terror of the Autons)]] (the reason for which is currently discussed on [[Talk:The Master (Terror of the Autons)|his talk page]] and should remain there), or all use disambiguation terms, with the exceptions of [[Decayed Master]], [[War Master]], [[Missy]] and [[the Lumiat]]. Having any other sort of mixed arrangement would just be confusing. ''Please note'' I am not saying the wiki ''must'' subscribe to the above dichotomy, just that I think it needs to be discussed. But there's another problem:


3. The Decaying Master - Peter Pratt/Geoffrey Beevers
Initially I too subscribed to the story dab pattern, for neutrality. But the problem is, the incarnations still need a name to be referred to with in articles to specify them. We can't say "The Doctor met [[the Master (Dominion)]]." in an article. It'd have to be something like "The Doctor met the [[Reborn Master]]." This means even if they're not page titles, descriptive names are necessary anyway. There are a few proposed names that work well enough with their story titles, like "Traken Master" (from ''[[The Keeper of Traken (TV story)|The Keeper of Traken]]'') or "Spy Master" (from ''[[Spyfall (TV story)|Spyfall]]''). But for most of them, a different name is needed to maintain an [[Tardis:In-universe perspective|in-universe perspective]], and because the text of the wiki will be using these names to identify the incarnations, it makes sense to me to have them be the page names anyhow, regardless of what they actually are. I am not 100% against using names on pages and disambiguation terms for (most) titles, which is essentially the status quo, but I think the page title should reflect how the character is almost always referred to on the wiki…


4. The Tremas Master - Anthony Ainley
Last note, this is a bit pedantic, but I think it makes a difference: I think descriptive names which are derived from a name themselves should use quotes— basically, "Tremas" Master instead of Tremas Master, "Bruce" Master instead of Bruce Master, and "Saxon" Master instead of Saxon Master. This not only reads better to me, for example alleviating concerns that "Bruce Master" sounds like, and probably is, some guy's name, but also better conveys the reasons those names are being used. Currently quotes are variably used for all descriptive names (particularly with coverage of ''[[Masterful (audio story)|Masterful]]'' you might see something like "the 'Young' Master"), but I think that's too difficult to read and that is the best way to use them. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
: As previously mentioned at [[Talk:Fugitive Doctor]], on no account should we use quotes for the actual page names (e.g. it is and will remain [[Decayed Master]], not [["Decayed" Master]]). This interferes with searchability and is ungainly besides. Big Finish's own box set titles don't say [[The War Master (series)|''The "War" Master'']], either; nor do the ''Masterful'' credits from which we derive the proposed [[Saxon Master]], [[Reborn Master]] or [[Tremas Master]] renames use such quotation marks.


5. The Decaying Master 2 - Voiced by Geoffrey Beevers in The Big Finish audios
: This point aside, my intuition thus far is that we use quotation marks when pipe-linking dabbed [[The Master (Something)]] pages for clarity — precisely to emphasise that something is a nickname which isn't really that page's proper title. For example, [[the Master (Terror of the Autons)|the "UNIT era" Master]]. This is informal practice and that discussion would be in a position to reform it, though, myself, I think it's intuitive enough. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 11:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
::Scrooge, you're drawing an equivalence between quite unlike things. Of course we don't use [["Fugitive" Doctor]] or [["Decayed" Master]], since those names are straightforwardly descriptive of each character in their entirety. But there ''is'' a straightforward difference between those names and names which are based on identities used only temporarily by the characters. "Missy" is not an alias in the same way that "Harold Saxon" is.


6. The Rathbone Master - Gordon Tipple, appeared in the Virgin New Adventures, First Frontier, Happy Endings, appeared for about 4 secs in the TV movie
::I very much like Chubby's suggestion. This is what it would take for me to get on board with some otherwise-repulsive suggestions: it makes "Bruce Master" sound less like the name of my next-door neighbor, and it suitably contextualizes the conjectural leap we're making in incarnation naming. In particular, I disagree with the idea that this would interfere with searchability in any way. Quote marks work fine in the search bar, and now that Fandom has made search work better with redirects, typing the same name without quotes will return the same result in a transparent fashion. Neither search nor precedent is an argument against this proposal. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 14:47, 13 January 2023 (UTC)


7. The Morphant Master - Eric Roberts
::: I'm not a fan of the quotation marks. Whilst I can understand why people might want to use them for Tremas, Saxon and Bruce, I'm 100% against using them for the Reborn Master; "reborn" is an adjective, just like "decayed", so I don't see why it would be treated any differently. [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
::::No one has suggested using them for the Reborn Master. I would also be opposed to such a thing. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 21:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


8. The Preacher Master - Appeared in Doctor Who Magazine comic strips, The Road to Hell and The Glorious Dead
I would choose [[Bruce Master]] over [["Bruce" Master]], [[Saxon Master]] over [["Saxon" Master]], [[Tremas Master]] over [["Tremas" Master]], [[Keller Master]] over [["Keller" Master]], etc. Aesthetics aside, the key problem here, which I'm surprised people are overlooking, is that placing quotation marks around part of a name ''does not actually communicate "this name is unofficial"'' in any clear or intuitive way. They could just as easily be read as some sort of quotation from some unspecified in-universe or out-of-universe source, or as in-universe nicknames (since quotation marks commonly signify a nickname when used for some but not all component words in a name; for example Punished "Venom" Snake from Metal Gear). With or without them, the wiki would still be making the same arbitrary call to employ the alias / host's name ''as an adjective'' when it was never used as such officially. That's OK by me - there's some objective, factual basis to describing Roberts's character "the Bruce Master", Simm's "the Saxon Master", etc - but if we're doing it, we should commit to doing it properly, in a way that gives the reader an uncluttered, consistent experience. Quotation marks are just confusing and distracting in this context. If a name is deemed so dodgy that it requires quotation marks, then we should just continue to disambiguate by debut appearance. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


9. The Professor Yana Master - Appeared in Utopia, played by Sir Derek Jacobi
My vote would go to: ''The "Bruce" Master'', ''The "Tremas" Master'' and ''The "Saxon" Master'' - with quotation marks as shown. To me, this indicates they are ''The Master'' but that there are sub-names to differentiate and distinguish them. Conversely, I wouldn't use quotation marks for ''The War Master'', as there are countless examples of that name being used widely across various releases. [[User:FractalDoctor|FractalDoctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)


10. The Harold Saxon Master - Played by John Simm in The Sound of Drums, Last of The Time-Lords and The End of Time
: I can’t believe I forgot to comment on this earlier. I am in support of [[“Bruce” Master]] and its ilk (with obvious exceptions for the War Master and the Decayed Master). While I personally find the premise of quotation marks in the link name to be aesthetically unappealing, it goes a long way in assuaging the concerns of those more skeptical about these sort of names. Likewise, it ''is'' how they’ve historically been used in-line. [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
::This list makes a ''lot'' of assumptions. I'd never call the kid we saw in ''The Sound of Drums'' the "Koschei" Master. And I have no idea where you're getting "The Rathbone Master" from. I mean I know you gave sources, but I don't see how you're connecting [[First Frontier]] to the TVM. Big leap of faith to suggest that a writer in 1993/4 was presaging a Master that would occur in a 1996 production fo which he couldn't possibly have had any knowledge. Anyone know what Gordon Tipple actually looks like, anyway? Does he look like Basil Rathbone? Somehow I kinda doubt it. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 08:23, June 19, 2010 (UTC)


:::David McIntee said that the version of the Master from ''First Frontier'' was meant to resemble Basil Rathbone. (No, I don't have a source for that, but I'm fairly sure it's legit.) No, Gordon Tipple doesn't look much like Basil Rathbone, but considering that we can't see his face as "The Old Master" in the TV Movie, it's not unreasonable to hypothesize that the version that gets zapped by the Smurfy Daleks was the one in the Tzun-aided body. Not that the ''article'' should say that, mind you (yes, we should have a source for the McIntee remark) — I'm just noting that it's a reasonable hypothesis. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <sup>[[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk to me]]</sup> 03:54, April 26, 2012 (UTC)
:: I would very much like to throw my two cents into this conversation. I think that whenever possible, we should note what number regeneration each Master is, much like the Doctor or the General. We obviously don't know for all of them, but we do know the numbers for a few. The [[Decayed Master]] is the [[Thirteenth Master]], the [[Tremas Master]] is the [[Fourteenth Master]], the [[The Master (First Frontier)|First Frontier Master]] is the [[Fifteenth Master]], the [[The Master (The TV Movie)|Bruce Master]] is the [[Sixteenth Master]], the [[The Master (The Fallen)|Preacher Master]] is the [[Seventeenth Master]], and the [[Reborn Master]] is the [[Eighteenth Master]]. If we wanted to guess (even if we're not absolutely certain) we can even assume that the [[War Master]] is the [[Nineteenth Master]] and the [[Saxon Master]] is the [[Twentieth Master]]. I just think it makes things more orderly on here, which is something we could definitely use given the convoluted history of this character. -- [[User:MattTheNerd42|MattTheNerd42]] [[User talk:MattTheNerd42|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


==Eleven Masters image==
:::What's your source for the numbering? [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]] 17:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
[[File:Eleven Masters.png|thumb|...]]
::::Whether stolen bodies even ''count'' is significantly controversial, but the problem is that if they do, then (depending on accounts) no numbering can be relied upon. In ''[[Mastermind (audio story)|Mastermind]]'' and ''[[Short Trips: The Centenarian]]'' a post-TVM Beevers Master steals a number of bodies for varying periods of time, in just the same way he stole Roberts's. If we counted them all, then Macqueen might be, like, the Thirty-First.  
I uploaded this image of the Eleven seen incarnations of The Master. I think that covers all of them, unless we want to include the first version of Tersurus or the blonde version of Saxon (and maybe the spoof version?). It's based off the Eleven Doctors image so the sizes are all weird, but it's at least consistent between the two.


Is it all right to add to this page?--[[Special:Contributions/99.29.140.149|99.29.140.149]] 17:40, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
::::Moreover, BF only inconsistently acknowledge the events of ''[[First Frontier (novel)|First Frontier]]''; the ''[[Dust Breeding (audio story)|Dust Breeding]]'' account bypasses it entirely, claiming that Ainley was reverted directly to Beevers. (This implies that Tipple in the TVM was a stolen body he acquired at some point — but we cannot assume that there was just ''one'' in that gap, so it doesn't necessarily "make up" the numbers with a different-but-equivalent "Fifteenth Master"!) Then, of course, there's the accounts where it's Ainley who's placed on trial, like ''[[The Eight Doctors (novel)|The Eight Doctors]]'', which would make your count come up one short, making Roberts the Fifteenth…


Yeah, go ahead. I created the current one to replace an image that was against this wiki's policy. Thanks for the upload.----[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 17:53, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
::::Also, some accounts claim that the Decayed Master was just a decayed version of Delgado, making ''Delgado'' the Thirteenth Master as well. Covering them on the same page is obviously not desirable, but we can't just act as though Beevers was the only possible Thirteenth candidate. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


Do we really need all of these pictures of the Master in the main image. I think that it is enough if we just show the main ones that appear in the TV shows. Even if we keep the images from the spinoffs though, we don't really need any of the Masters from the TV Movie apart from the Eric Roberts Master. I always assumed that the Master in the prison at the beginning was supposed to be the Anthony Ainley Master, since the Master couldn't regenerate in his Trakenite body. Even if it is a different Master, he was on screen for less than a minute, and you can't see his face in the picture. The weird ghost snake thing isn't even a real incarnation. It was the same incarnation that was exterminated at the beginning, but in a different form. If we put the snake in that image, then why don't we add in Yana's fob watch. The Master's consciousness was in that, so does that make it an incarnation. And adding in both versions of the Tersurus Master, and the blode Saxon Master would be repetitive. By that logic, all of the Ainley Master's ridiculous disguises should be in their. And The Curse of Fatal Death is non-canon, so that Master should not be in the image. Unless, you want to add all the spoof Doctors to his image.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 23:33, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
:::::And the Preacher Master can't be the Seventeenth Master, because [[The Master (The Curse of Fatal Death)]] is. Well, he could be an alternate incarnation, but it's clearly not so straightforward as it seems. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]] 18:18, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
:I'm gonna side with [[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]], here.   I don't think we have a responsibility to put ''all'' images of a Time Lord up on a general page about that Time Lord, As on the [[companion]] page, I think we can illustrate the ''concept'' with three-four images.  Especially here.  There are only three actors to have played the Master on TV for more than one story.  Simm, Ainley and Delgado are the "major" Masters, so they're the only ones that really ''need'' to be in the infobox.  Or we could go with a more neutral ruling and that, in the case of Time Lords, only the most ''recent'' actor to play the role gets to be in the infobox.  Or we could go with an equally neutral "first and last actor" role.  So a Delgado/Simm split screen pic.  Whatever we decide, Icecreamdif has a serious point.  You can't take a 250px pic, divide it 11 ways, and have an illustration that parses quickly and cleanly. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''23:52:47 Tue&nbsp;'''05 Apr 2011&nbsp;</span>
I think the image should be either just Simm, or just Simm and Delgado. I don't think that we should show all the "major" masters, because it could be open to interpretaion as to who they are. For example, why should Simm be a "major" Master, but not Pratt/Beevers. Both of those Masters were basically in 2 television stories. If we do change the Master's infobox image, then should we also change the Doctor's?[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 23:57, April 7, 2011 (UTC)
:Yes, the Doctor and Master images should closely approximate each other, or have good reason not too. The reason I put in all 11 images was to disregard any notion of subjectivity in deciding who was a "real" Master (Simm, Delgado?). The Tipple Master is probably not the Ainley Master because we saw how Ainley Master died and became Mr Seta and all that nonsense in the New Adventures novels and Big Finish audio books. I could take or leave the Tipple Master, since it was just a generic regenerative form of his between Mr Seta and Eric Roberts with nothing more to go on. But I think the morphant and child Master (the only positive image of the Master's first incarnation) are very important for an image giving an overview of his different incarnations. The two comic images are also important, to drive the point that this site and this page includes a lot of non-televised stories and different incarnations of the Master have been explored in these stories and are covered equally. There are exactly 11 images, in the *exact same* proportions as on the Doctor image, so their can't be any argument about image viewing or accessibility that wouldn't apply to the Doctor's image equally. Eliminating people for aesthetics here and not there leads to a slippery slope (are we judging on number of appearances? There goes Eric Roberts. On type of appearance? Their goes audiobook equality believers.). Also, The Master and The Doctor are the only two characters who would have an image of this size. Similar characters (Rassilon, Romana), would have much smaller images with only a few images tops. This seems to be the best way to handle articles on characters with regenerative/"face changing" behavior in a completely objective manner.--[[User:Tim Thomason|Tim Thomason]] 07:47, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


Then maybe there should be fewer images for the infobox in both this page, and the Doctor's page. If it was a human character, we wouldn't show images of the person from every stage of their lives. With most characters, we show how they most recently appeared, so this page should just have the Simm Master, and the Doctor's page should just have the Smith Doctor. Obvously, pictures of their other incarnations would appear in the body of the article.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 15:37, April 9, 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it's really possible to assign numbers. The waters are too murky. At this point, even if Sacha Dhawan showed up again on screen and proclaimed "I am the Xth Master" it would ''still ''be arguable. Also, even if we did have one or two numbers, nobody ever refers to them as such - nobody says "I loved the Twelfth Master" in the same way we might say "I loved the Twelfth Doctor" for example — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 21:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
: Maybe, like above, Delgado and Simm (and Hartnell and Smith) with some kind of arrow pointing to a gallery or the first section below. Or maybe no image at all (or a picture of, I don't know, the Doctor's calling card and the Master's fob watch?). A picture of the most recent image of a person in a regular human being is still a picture of that same person. The Doctor had 11 seperate full-grown versions of himself. The Master has anywhere between 5 and 23 full-grown versions of himself.--[[Special:Contributions/75.49.218.60|75.49.218.60]] 23:27, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


The problem is, whilst there have been eleven Doctors, there have only been six Masters. Plus, we don't put the Peter Cushing Doctor on, so we shouldn't have all of them. Not the illustrations or snake one, at least. --[[User:BillyWilliam3rd|BillyWilliam3rd]] 14:16, April 14, 2011 (UTC)
: Not sure I completely agree there. If a new Master was introduced as "[Numeral] Master", we don't have the right to reject that name even if it doesn't sit well with other sources that depict more or less incarnations of the Master up until that point.
: We shouldn't make up incarnation numbers, but if one ever officially exists, we should use it. (Maybe as "according to one account".)
: We don't elect to not use "[[Fourteenth Doctor]]" even though he is technically the sixteenth (inc. War Doctor and the VanityTen) or perhaps the the thirty-third (inc. Timeless Children, Fugitive Doctor, "Morbius" Doctors). {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 21:16, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


The fact is that we are not like wikipedia, we treat most spin off media as canon, therefore the spin off media Masters should be shown on the main image. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 13:20, April 14, 2011 (UTC)
::Fair points. I did say it would be debatable though, not that we should dismiss it immediately out of hand. In such an instance, I think "according to one account" would work. In any case, I doubt this would ever happen, unless it's done jokingly (similar to Smith's Doctor telling Clyde he could regenerate 507 times). — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 21:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


I agree with Revan, we should equally show the spin-off Masters. Not so sure about the [[Deathworm]] though, is that an incarnation?----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 16:02, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
== Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images ==


I agree with Skittles, the Deathworm is the Bruce Master. It isn't a separate incarnation. [[User:Bigredrabbit|Bigredrabbit]] 06:25, July 12, 2011 (UTC)
Although tabs haven't yet been implemented here yet, following the discussion at [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Replacing docpic]], I have a potential way to let us have the tabs listed chronologically but with the most recent incarnation selected by default which I have presented at [[Talk:The Doctor#Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images]]. It could easily be applied here as well. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:06, 3 February 2023 (UTC)


== Main image and the template ==
== Tabbed gallery ==
I am completley against this "Eleven Masters" image. Why have we got the spin-off sones? Or even the eight-year-old Master on it? This is ludicrous. It is because, spin-off media''' does '''have equal importance, but not enough to be on the main image. ''Doctor Who ''is a television programme, and the Master is one of the most well-known "monsters" there has ever been. Sometimes spin-off media "fill in the gaps" of Doctor Who, such as "Why did the Sixth Doctor regenerate?". The "Tzan" version of the Master filled in the gap of ''[[Survival]]'' and ''[[Doctor Who (1996)]]'', through a comic strip. So my main point is, that the TV ones should be on the main image, and the spin-off ones should be mentioned throughout the article.
I note this page still needs a tabbed gallery. The Doctor page works well starting from the first known incarnation, so maybe the Master should follow suit (except with "A", "B", "C", etc.) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Oh, and another thing. The template, The Masters template. I did think that the spin-off ones should be at least mentioned. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 16:18, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
: Indeed. Done, though as stated in my thread closure, the option of switching out this or that image is of course available. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 13:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:They are of equal importance in my opinion. Spin-off media isn't just to fill a gap. What gap exactly do the BFAs or PDAs fill. Just saying "please don't change this" is the only ludicrous thing here.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 16:14, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
:: Thanks, [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]. Is the absence of a certain [[The Master (The Destination Wars)|Destination Wars Master]] on purpose? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:00, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


::''Doctor Who'' isn't '''just''' a TV programme, there were '''years''' when it wasn't even that. Right from practically the start the stories being told weren't ''just'' TV ones. I reject that the series' that have been produced outside of the TV series ''just'' fill in the gaps.
: As I just finished telling [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon]], it's "on purpose" in the sense that I was sticking with his absence from {{tlx|masterpic}} and with the basic precedent of not including the "according to one account" pre-Delgado incarnations established by the prior decision against including Brayshaw on the template. Also, aside from his controversial existence, it stands to reason that we don't want a somewhat "random" incarnation like Dreyfus to be the perennial default thumbnail instead of Delgado. All of this is in line with Jo Martin & friends not being represented on [[The Doctor]]. But Jack argues that we ''do'' include the also-controversial John Hurt at The Doctor, so perhaps we could consider the place of the pre-Delgado Masters on this one. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
::The composite infobox image helps to give a summary of the essential elements of the character. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 16:22, June 17, 2011 (UTC)


::I agree, there is no reason why the spin off Masters shouldn't be on the main image, this wikia treats all media with the same credibility and this should be reflected everywhere, not selectively. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 16:35, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
This might be too outlandish an idea but just a thought I had, that could solve that (here and on other pages) - would it be possible to have a secondary tabbed gallery maybe further down the page, containing miscellaneous/somewhat ambiguous incarnations. I'm guessing it would have some pushback, and could be viewed as confusing, but it's just a suggestion.  


I understand that this wiki considers the spin-off stuff to be equally canon to the actual show, but it seems ridiculous to say that the cartoon Master is just as important as the Roger Delgado or John Simm Masters.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 17:39, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
I do think this page should begin with Delgado because of the reasons you stated. Worth noting that we do include Hurt in the tabbed Doctor gallery, and we include the Lumiat in this one (as well as others). The only difference with Dreyfus is that he's pre-Delgado and so instead of being mid-gallery, he'd be eternally at the beginning/the default starting image, and I completely understand why a lot of people wouldn't want this. (I wouldn't want this either, but is there an alternative, other than just leaving him out?) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
:: Well, as I said, the alternative would be to start with [[William Hughes]], thus sandwiching him away. But I would find it hard to justify including these two and not other alleged pre-Delgado Masters e.g. the War Chief, and that might get very controversial very quickly (I would be willing to bite the bullet of including Peter Butterworth, but I don't think many people would! This is just what we have the "no controversial information in infoboxes" rule of thumb for.)  


:Why? ''Doctor Who'' can be enjoyed through any medium and have an impact through any of those, the comic story based Master dealt with issues on a similar level as the TV based character.
:: As regards a more thorough gallery of incarnations, this sounds like a very good use of the proposed usage of galleries on in-universe page, which is currently against policy but ''is'' one of the proposals currently rising through the Temp Forums propositions table. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
:The image is trying to show what's covered on the article, I found it also illustrated the diverse range of stuff we cover on the wiki. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 17:48, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
::Where's the "Final Frontier" Master. He is not shown up there. So it is incomplete. But mine shows all the ones on TV, they're the most significant. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 07:58, June 18, 2011 (UTC)


No, they're not. You can't just state an unfounded opinion. What evidence do you have for spin-off media being less important?----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 10:07, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
::: I don't think the likes of the Monk and the War Chief are comparable to the likes of Parker and Dreyfus. With the Monk and the War Chief, there are conflicting accounts on whether or not they are the Master. There's no such confusion with Parker and Dreyfus. [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:15, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:But you didn't answer my question. Where is the "Final Frontier" Master, and why isn't it up there? [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 13:40, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
Fair enough, [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge''']].  
::There is no image of that Master, as he originated in novels. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 13:46, June 18, 2011 (UTC)


Strange how your questioning the absence of one, but proposing the removal of many. All forms of media are equal in my opinion, there is no reason why a comic strip Master shouldn't be given the same priority.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 13:49, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
I'm probably opening a huge can of worms (and maybe not in the best suited place) by asking about the War Chief and what the evidence is for and against him being an incarnation of the Master, but I think it's worth noting that Dreyfus' incarnation was invented as, and specifically designed to be an earlier incarnation of the Master, and I think there's a debate about that warranting inclusion. I've just had a look at your back-and-forth with [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]], and both of you raise good points. I think it's a debate to be had though at some stage, and good note about the upcoming galleries discussion. That could solve some issues down the line.
:The view that TV incarnations are the only canon is Wikipedia's policy, so on there I would say yes, only TV Masters. But on here everything official is canon, so policy should reflect how we do our main images. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 13:56, June 18, 2011 (UTC)


Yeah, I'm not a fan of wikipedia's view. It seems that just cannot be bothered incorporating them...so they don't.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 14:01, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
(I wrote this before seeing Jack's response just now. I'm sitting on the fence and viewing both sides, but ultimately I'm siding with Jack's reasoning here, if I'm honest.) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
::I too am against the eleven-image thing, but for a solid reason of page design.  It's only 250px, folks — not a centrefold spread.  Think ''simple'', not ''complete''.  The picture on ''any'' article doesn't need to be of every single thing ever purporting to be the subject of the article.  It only needs to be enough to ''illustrate'' the topic in broad strokes.  A simple split of Delgado and Simm — or at most Delgado, Simm, Roberts and Ainley — tell the reader, there's more than one of these guys.  That's ''all'' that needs to happen.  We don't need every companion at [[companion]], every Cyberman at [[Cyberman]], every Dalek at [[Dalek]], and, frankly, we don't need every Doctor at [[the Doctor]].  It's even more the case here, where we simply don't have pictures of some of the incarnations.  This argument that we're being "unfair" to Masters in other media is absolutely spurious.  It's about the 250px width and how simply we can illustrate the concept at that width.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''14:11:28 Sat&nbsp;'''18 Jun 2011&nbsp;</span>


Well, if you laid it out in a similar style to the Doctors image (and removed the Deathworm, that isn't an incarnation) it would probably work well anyway.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 14:18, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
:::: @Jack, they're not exactly the same situation, sure, but there are certainly accounts by which lights no such persons as Parker or Dreyfus's Masters could have existed (''[[The Dark Path (novel)|The Dark Path]]'' positing that Koschei didn't call himself "the Master" yet by the time he left Gallifrey is the obvious one). [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


I agree with Czechout. Apart from the questions of which media is more important, that image was as useless as the old companion image was. It would make more sense for this to just be Delgado and Simm, and for the Doctor's page to be Hartnell and Smith. There could still be pictures of all the other Masters, both spin-off and television, in the body of the article.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 14:57, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
Tangential question: is Parker meant to be the same incarnation as the 'child' we saw in [[The Sound of Drums (TV story)|The Sound of Drums]] flashback, or not? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:I agree with Skittles. We have all the canon incarnations of [[the Doctor]], [[Rassilon]], [[Borusa]] and [[Romana]], so why not the Master? The Rassilon image contains a comic image? Should that be removed? No. Therefore, the eleven (or ten if we remove the Deathworm) should stay. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 16:57, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
:: On the whole I'm less concerned about specific cases than about what a giant can of worms pre-Delgado Masters are, such that starting the infobox at Delgado just seems like the cutoff point that will cause the fewest headaches. It's a line in the sand, not a natural boundary, but it's a common-sense sort of line in the sand that readers will easily grok as saying "we're starting with Delgado for IRL reasons/sanity" rather than a judgment-call statement of "such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters count more than such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters". A full gallery elsewhere on the page, if the Temp Forums pass that reform, would then sound like quite an attractive proposal to supplement it.


Where as companion is a term and Cybermen have distinct variants, this is just a character with a different face. I think it is important to show each one to some degree.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 17:14, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
:: (Re: Parker/Hughes… that's another controversial one. Per recent BTS quotes, it seems that yes, but that's ambiguous in the stories themselves, particularly as they have some conspicuous physical differences e.g. eye colour. So that's another area of possible contention.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:Which we can — and indeed ''must'' — in the '''body''' of the article.  Presence in the infobox pic is not equivalent to ''importance''.  Putting first and last incarnations here and at [[the Doctor]] doesn't diminish the importance of the intervening incarnations.  It just says, "We've got 250px here; we'd rather go with a picture where you can easily see the faces without having to magnify it." 
I'm not gunna die on this hill, and I'd be happy to wait until the Temp Forum discussion happens regarding a potential alternative before continuing this debate.  


:To those who don't know how many incarnations there are, having two-up — one in black-and-white/old-grainy-colour and the other in modern colour — immediately tells the story.  It says, "This character isn't just the current series; he goes back a ''long'' way." 
I also note here that there may even be [[The Master's early life#The Dreyfus Master|a hint of Big Finish muddying the waters]] themselves anyway, or subtly trying to retcon a few things in light of IRL events surrounding Dreyfus and his positioning anyway? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:To those who ''do'' know the character well, putting up a Delgado/Simm split will obviously say, "Oh, that's the first Master and the most recent one." It won't scream "incomplete"; it'll say "first and last". If you go for a four-up or six-up design, that's where you get into arguments of "completeness".  By limiting to two, it's ''obviously'' incomplete, so there must be some ''other'' organising principle at work.
If the preacher (who appears in half as many stories as Dreyfus) and the Asian child (who is apparently not even intended to be a mainline Master) are included, there's no justification for excluding Dreyfus. Including pre-Delgado incarnations is no more "opening a can of worms" than including post-Delgado ones. I think we should either stick with major TV incarnations (as on [[The Doctor]]) or include the lot, not this weird middle ground. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:32, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:I see people arguing against this because they say we do eleven-up at [[the Doctor]].  In my view, that page is wrong, just like this one.  They ''both'' should be simple two-up designs. Simple, clear imagery is always better than overly complete ones.  There are nice, big articles at both pages just crying out to be well-illustrated. It doesn't need to be jammed up in the infobox. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''00:33:53 Mon&nbsp;'''20 Jun 2011&nbsp;</span>  
:It has been nearly half a year with no further discussion. Again, given the inclusion of the Preacher and the Child, there is no excuse for excluding the Inventor, an actual mainline Master who is named "The Master", appears as the main Master in multiple stories, and is explicitly positioned prior to Delgado. Can we please get this resolved now? [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


I disagree with the Rassilon image, and I'll try and change it sooner or later. But in the meantime I have got a very good reason why we don't need the spin-off Masters:
:: No we cannot. To begin with, it is non-trivial that his "being named 'the Master' and appears as the main Master in multiple stories" is operative with regards to why he should be included, but not Hughes/Parker or Butterworth or Brayshaw or Magnus.  


#'''The Looms''', a way of explaining the Time Lord reproductive system in a few Virgin spin-off books, such as [[Lungbarrow]] and [[Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible]]. '''But it has never been mentioned on screen''', and in a flashback they showed the Master as an eight-year-old, and in the latest episode they said the the Doctor had a cot.  
:: But more importantly, I still think there is no reason to include Dreyfus here if we do not include Jo Martin at [[The Doctor]] (she explicitly the Doctor by name, explicitly before the currently-earliest incarnation in the gallery, and [[Origins (comic story)|has begun appearing as the lead in her own stories]]). And I don't believe we should do ''either'' of those things. There is a long-standing policy of keeping controversial in-universe information out of infoboxes (hence "[[The Doctor's species]]" being used in all Doctors' species field). Although it can be bent on a case-by-case basis, I think setting things such that incarnations whose very ''existence'' is highly dependent on contradictory accounts, like any of the pre-Delgado Masters or the various pre-Hartnell Doctors, would appear as the ''page's default thumbnail'' in categories and Google searches, would be in stark violation of the spirit of that policy. How recurring the Inventor or Fugitive might become doesn't enter into it. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 11:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


So there! Spin-off media isn't always canonical! [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 06:47, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
:::I personally think that the CoFD Master should get a look in, although the question of exactly where to place him is something of a conundrum. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|📢]] 11:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


Yes it is. Read the canon policy. If two accounts are in dispute, both are listed. As for CzechOut's point, I think you can clearly show 10/11 faces. The image at "[[the Doctor]]" is '''easily''' visible. However, if your saying that two would be more aesthetically pleasing, then that's a good point.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 09:42, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
::::On the other hand, of course, we ''could'' place him between Bruce and Preacher. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]]  16:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


:All of the main media, i.e. comics, television, audio and novels are treated equal. There is not one that trumps the other, not one of them is better than another one. They are the same, the only difference is that television stories are seen by a wider audience. There are some users who may not watch the television series, and only read comics, or listen to audio, and therefore everything is treated equally. It is part of the canon policy. I don't see why you cannot understand that. Every thing is equal. I fail to see why television must take priority when all media is treated the same. And also, leave the Rassilon image alone. Forget about it, until we reach an agreement about what to do with this image. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 11:06, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
== Relationship between Master and Meddling Monk  ==


I could settle with the first Master and latest Master being on the infobox picture as CzechOut suggested. Cortion, if you took out all the spin off material on this wikia because it wasn't as important as television then we wouldn't even need the wikia, we would just have Wikipedia. The notion of some aspects of spin off media contradicting TV is understandable, Doctor Who has been around for almost 50 years, so at some point something is bound to contradict something else, even TV episodes have contradicted each other before (The Doctor's age as being 953 in Time of the Rani and 903 in Voyage of the Damned). --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 11:27, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
I see this site now uses FASA narrative as valid. And it contains something that may settle the controversial issue once and for all.
Peter Butterworth's character in The Time Meddler is said to be the Master, but then we also have a "Meddling Monk" in Follow That TARDIS!, plus Rufus Hound in Big Finish Audios. So, how can Butterworth be the Master, AND Hound be a Time Lord unambiguously separate from the Master called "the Meddling Monk"?


Alright listen. Why can't we have as a caption for my image: For spin-off incarnations, [whatever you want to put here]. Will that suit any of you? [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 15:13, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
The FASA narrative explictly states that in 1066(The Time Meddler) the Master '''disguised himself as the Meddling Monk'''. And that this wasn't one of his(the Master's) best schemes.
So, in the same way David Morrissey in The Next Doctor wasn't actually The Doctor, Peter Butterworth in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan WAS NOT ACTUALLY THE MEDDLING MONK. He was the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk.


:No, because that is relagating them to another position. They need to be '''equal'''. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 15:31, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
So, while there may be a Mortimus/Meddling Monk separate to the Master, the guy in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan was NOT the Meddling Monk. It was the Master DISGUISED AS the Meddling Monk. {{unsigned-anon|197.87.143.20}}
: Oh good, you again.


:Wait..what? What's "your image". If it looks like it will treat other media as lesser, then no. And you still not answering the question of why you think television is more important that other media. It is not. As per the canon policy. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 15:32, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
: Well, ''according to one account'', yes. (Though it's reading the text against itself to imagine that in FASA's account there is such a thing as a real Monk who simply is not the one who actually appears in ''The Time Meddler''.) But ''according to other accounts'' it was in fact a distinct guy in ''Time Meddler''. There are ''conflicting accounts'', and this is not a problem, this is not something that needs to be "settled", it's just a fact. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 09:33, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


:: I am in support of the First and Last Masters being shown in the infobox, this does not relegate spin off Masters. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 15:34, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
== "Quote marks" ==


:::I think the image should have nine faces on it, which are the faces of the nine Masters shown in the "incarnations of the Master" template. If it's a three by three colum, it will look fine. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 15:39, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
We finally ditched the quote marks from [[The Doctor|"The Doctor"]], post-fork, should we do the same here? × [[User:Fractal|Fractal]] [[User talk:Fractal|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 21:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 
: Yes. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
::::Checking through Cortion's contributions I'd imagine it is this image; [[:File:Six-masters.jpg]]. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:42, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
Of course the TV shows are more important than the spin-off stuff. The TV show came first, and all the spin-offs are just based on the TV shows. The looms for example, are clearly non-canon. What do you think that future stories (both television and spin-off) are more likely to follow. The spin-off canon where the Timelords are loomed, or the actual television canon, where the Doctor had a crib when he was a baby, and the Master was an eight year old child? THe thing about the Doctor's age is a much more minor inconsistency. The Doctor probably doesn't even know his age with all the time travelling that he's done. The loom thing is a major inconsticency, that is obviously no longer considered canon by anyone involved in the show. On an slighly related note, the Rassilon image looks awful. If you must keep all the spin-off images in the infobox, at least lay it out the way that Borusa's is layed out, instead of having them all nect to eachother.[[User:Gowron8472|Gowron8472]] 22:10, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
Please check your "facts". The TV series has many, many inconsistencies, some are rather major. Please see: [[Inconsistencies and Retcons]] before making incorrect statements. All media is the same, regardless of what came first.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 09:13, June 21, 2011 (UTC)
 
I'm not denying that any show that has been airing for as long as Doctor Who has is bound to have some inconstinies, but nothing on that list is a major plot thing. Pretty much all of that is one minor reference in one episode conflicting with a major plot point in another episode. From what I understand about the loom story, that is an example of a major plot point in one spin-off story conflicting with a major plot point in  a later TV story.  The difference is that you can ignore the 2nd doctor's comment about timelords living forever, or the Seventh Doctor's comment about his age, and the story will reamin completely unchanged. If you ignore the looms, onthe other hand, then you have a completely different story. I'm not saying that we shouldn't document the spin-off stuff on this site, I jus don't think it should be treated equally to the television shows.[[User:Gowron8472|Gowron8472]] 19:18, June 21, 2011 (UTC)
 
Why not? Why should TV be any more canon than spin-off media? There is no reason. All media should be treated fairly and that is our policy here at TARDIS wiki.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 13:08, June 23, 2011 (UTC)
 
:So you think because something came first it immediately better, because it's not. The canon polciy of this wiki states all media is treated equally, therefore we should have the image of all ten masters (minus the Deathworm, and maybe the child). I don't see why no one, apart from Skittles, seems to understands this. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 13:13, June 23, 2011 (UTC)
 
Yeah, the seem to offer up these grand opinions, but they don't justify them.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 13:20, June 23, 2011 (UTC)
 
I am in full support of both Skittles and Mini-mitch's points here, I just suggested the "first" and "latest" Masters to be put in the image as a comprimise. I would much rather see all pictures in there though, but I am still open to a comprimise that doesn't go against our canon policy. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 11:55, June 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
How about this then: We just show all the Doctors shown on TV, we '''[[DO NOT]]''' show the so-called "future incarnations" as show in spin-off material, such as [[The Doctor (Party Animals)]]. We should do the same with the Master, just show the TV ones, the main ones. Let's just show the main ones, shown on TV. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 06:54, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Do you not understand our canon poilcy? '''All story formats are the same. Television, comics, novels and audio are treated as equal.''' In the case of the Doctor, we would not show future incarnations as most of them are non  canon, meaning something else have over written it. In the case of the Doctor, it's the BBC. The comics have came up with a so called Eleventh Doctor, but if the BBC have made an offical Eleventh Doctor, then the comic one is non-canon. As for the Master these are ''past'' incarnations, we only seen the Master regenerate once. Which was Yana into Saxon. However, there are gaps in his life, such as Bruce into Yana, so we then go to the comics/novels/audio to see what incarnation(s) came between them and therefore use them.
 
:Going back to the Doctor, is the BBC offical says "We going to show a program that shows all the incarnations of the Master" then we would use pictures from that, and if they don't use any comic strip Master, we can assume they are future incarnation or non canon incarnations.
 
:In the case of the picture. We show the Master comic strip images because they "fill in the blanks" between incarnation and because we see comic strips and canon. We don't use it for the Doctor because we don't need to fill in the blanks. The BBC have said what number each incarnation of the Doctor is, and there is no need to fill in the blanks.
 
:We should not be looking to the future, but to the present and the past. The future can change, that is why we do not include any of the "future" incarnation (that are mostly featured in comics strips, which, as someone on the side of the comic strips, finds ironic). We only include comic strips for the Master as we judge them canon and help to fill in the blanks which occur between incarnations, and that is why we should include all the images of the Matser. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 10:35, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
I see that [[User:Cortion]] thinks repeating his unfounded point in cap locks is a valid argument. Please find a reason for this statement.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 14:29, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
:Skittles, caps doesn't just mean shouting (not a valid argument, agreed), but also an attention-getter for emphasis. Apparantly you've been ignoring his argument, and he's trying to get your attention. And then of course you reject his argument becuase "yelling" isn't valid. Sigh...he just can't win with you, can he?
:Personally, I say: just use the TV images. I know that "all sources are created equal," unless there are contradictions between them, but the TV pictures are going to be the most recognizable ones. If we are going for completeness, then of course show all of the various incarnations, bodies, and forms the Master used. But if we are going for simply and introduction to the character, then the TV images are the most likely ones to be recognized. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 15:01, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
::The point of the image in the infobox is to illustrate the subject the page is about. The page is about the Master in general, not just the television Masters. The comic and the television images help to illustrate the page, which it what is should do. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 15:16, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
To address Bold Clone's point, yes caps are for emphasis but if you scan this article you'll find that his point has been answered several times. The canon policy has been cited on a number of occasions. We trying to '''illustrate the subject''' (how's that for emphasis), not make it immediately recognisable.
 
Imagine if the pics of Simm and Jacobi were removed. All the new series-only editors would kick up a storm. Of course there aren't any comic/novel-only editors, but I still think the pics should stand if we're going to show them all.---<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 15:34, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
:If we are aiming for comeplteness, and if all sources are considered equal, then of corse we should have all the various forms. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 16:20, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
Yeah, I think that "completeness or not" is the only question left. I would be happy with all or just first and last as both are good ideas.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 16:33, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
 
:I would clarify that the infobox is there as a quick summary of the page, this is why some short individual articles ''don't'' have an infobox because there isn't enough to summarise.
:So, as I see it there are three options, "completeness" with all the images, "first and last" (which I imagine would be Delgado and Simm) or choose a '''single''' image that immediately summarises the Master as we do with species' infoboxes. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 06:09, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 
[[File:Delgado and friend.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Image suggestion.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 12:28, July 2, 2011 (UTC)]]
I like the first and last idea. The image to the right is just a suggestion. I also created a vertically longer image if anyone thinks it's too short.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 12:28, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 
I like this kind of image, although the Delgado Master pic is a tad blurry, perhaps we should find a more clearer one? --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 12:34, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 
Yeah, I though someone might pick up on that. It's from ''[[Terror of the Autons|Terror]]'', so it's bound to be a bit naff. I'll try and find a better one. Perhaps on ''[[The Sea Devils]]''...  ----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 12:37, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 
[[File:Delgado and friend 2.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Image suggestion 2.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 12:45, July 2, 2011 (UTC)]]
Ta da. No black line on this one.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 12:45, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
 
Why don't we just show the main Masters? [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 12:54, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 
:So you suggesting we show all the masters, as what the original images was? I agree with that. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 12:55, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 
I would also prefer an image featuring all the Masters. The suggestions I provided were only intended as a compromise.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 14:03, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 
Same as Skittles with me too. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 14:18, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Umm...have we just had a long discussion and ended up right back at the start? Doesn't really matter, I guess now we have a discussion to refer to the next time this happens. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]'''
 
:The majority of people want the old 11 master image. I will re add it, and when/if Cortion returns after his block, if he still disagrees, we can continue the discussion. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 17:29, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
 
I'm not trying to be annoying and a nuisance, but I think we should just show the TV Masters. They are the main Masters. Some people might not know anything about the spin-off Masters, but they know about the TV Masters. These are the main incarnations. So in the mean time I'm taking the image down. '''If you disagree with this, don't kick up a fuss, just revert my edit'''. Thanks. [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 08:55, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
:BroadcastCorp. I understand how you can think this.
:But, if you think like that...well this wiki is sort of pointless as no one knows everything and you come to a wiki (or indeed Wikipedia) to find out information. To discover more about what you do and find out about what you don't.
:As has been said ''numerous'' times above we ''don't'' just cover the TV stories. We're different to Wikipedia (which notable does have ''just'' the TV Masters). --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 16:06, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
Alright then. But I'll change the image to a clearer version (don't panic, it's the one you (we) want!). [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 16:29, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
::Is it?
::We had agreed we wanted all the Masters, but critically the Master from the pre-titles of the TVM isn't there. Nor is the young Master. Or the Deathworm.
::Looking back through the page's history this image "[[:File:Eleven Masters.png|Eleven Masters]]" was used and does at least show all the ones we've been discussing.
::I'm removing the image as, is highlighted by the omission I don't think we're ''yet'' finished working out what images we want. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 17:26, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
[[File:Eight-masters.jpg|right|250px|thumb|This is the image I propose.]]
The Deathworm '''is not''' an incarnation. We don't need the young Master, because that is the same incarnation as the Delgado one but younger. It's not known if the TVM pre-titles one is a different incarnation or the Ainley version. So the image I added still stands. [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 17:42, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
We definately need the young Master as spin off media tells us that he is a different incarnation than Delgado and that is what we must go by. Spin off media also tells us that the pre-TVM Master cannot be Ainley as there are 2 incarnations that come between Ainley and the TVM Master. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 17:45, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
Which spin off media told you that the young Master is a different incarnation? [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 17:48, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
Your image doesn't stand. What evidence do you have that the Delgado Master is the child. There isn't any. The TVM pre-titles one is different to the Ainley Master as he "died" under completely different circumstances. However, I do agree that the Deathworm is not an incarnation.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 17:48, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
The Dark Path depicts the Master regenerating several times and this is set before he meets the Third Doctor in Terror of the Autons so Delgado cannot be the first Master. Legacy of the Daleks also tells us that the Delgado Master is the twelfth incarnation and the corpse-like form is his last body which decayed because a Dalek superweapon was still detonating after Delgado regenerated. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 17:51, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
I really think we should just show the ''adult'' Masters, don't you? [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 17:56, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
No, because there's no point to that, we need to put ''all'' the Masters into the picture and not be selective. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 18:28, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
The fact that even after it has been decided that the spin-off Masters should be included, people are still arguing about which Masters belong in the infobox is proof that it makes more sense to go with the simpler picture. If we use the one with just the Delgado and Simm Masters, than we avoid arguments about which incarnations are the same as which, and which ones are important to show.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 22:40, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
:We just '''can't''' show a child Master in the main image! It's not necessary at all. We've mentioned that child throughout the article. Let's just show the adult Masters, to avoid confusion. He spends most of his time as an adult. Him as a child is just... his life hasn't even started yet! If you know what I mean... [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 11:38, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
And also, the pre-titles Master isn't even mentioned in The Master's stories template, that's why I didn't add it. [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 14:03, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
BroadcastCorp is illustrating exactly what I mean. The only ones that nobody would argue to not be included are the  who were there originally. Even when we establish which ones are canon, there are still arguments about which ones ae significant. It can be argued whether the snake master counts as an incarnation or not, or whether the Tersure Master is the same as the UNIT years Master, or wheher the Master who appeared for about 2 seconds in the TV Movie and the child Master are significant or not. It is much simpler to just include the first and last Masters who appeared, so it would just be Delgado and Simm.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 16:32, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
:We ''can'' show the child Master, that wasn't even an issue prior to the original discussion, he's an onscreen Master who is an individual separate from the others in the image. Likewise, if we're going for the simplest interpretation of all Masters the pre-titles TVM needs to be included.
:I'm not sure what you mean with regard to the child/adult argument, we don't have enough information to make accurate assumptions of life/lifestyle of Time Lords and how much of their lives they are "children".
:I agree the Deathworm probably shouldn't be included as it's more an intermediary sort of thing.
:I support either all the Masters or as has been discussed, and noted again by Icecreamdif a simpler 2 Masters image. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 16:40, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
::Okay, how about this. We show the TVM pre-titles Master, and not show the child Master? Agree? [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 16:55, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
Not really, what reason do you have to not include the child?----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 16:57, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
:The child is as much part of the Master's life as the pre-TVM Master, and all the others. So I'm not sure where the issue lies. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 17:05, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
[[File:Nine-masters.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Here is my image suggestion with the TVM pre-titles Master.]]
The Master is an evil and psychopathic mastermind. Showing a child on the main page isn't really good. It's best to show him in his prime, not when he was an innocent child. I've added the TVM pre-titles Master, and here it is, (my image suggestion):. [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 17:26, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
The page is for the Master and should include all incarnations of him, not to portray the "theme of the character". The image you just posted would look better with the young Master as the image would be two rows of 5 and would have no white spaces. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 17:39, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
[[File:Ten-masters.jpg|right|250px|thumb|What do you think? Like it? I certainly do!]]
Alright, you win. In fact, we win. We ''should'' show all the on-screen Masters, including the child. Here it is, the image you have all been waiting for... [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 17:55, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
:To me, the ten image is fantastic. It's exactly how I pictured it. Great job. I'm happy with this. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 17:58, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
::Added it to page. [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 18:00, July 10, 2011 (UTC)
 
I again reiterate my displeasure at this idea.  All respect for the work that's gone into it,  but it misses the point of an infobox.  By defintion, an infobox '''summarizes'''.  It's not there to have every single fact jammed into it.  Botho of Skittles "first and last" image above is far, far superior from a design standpoint, and from a symbollic one.  Just because we have the power to cram 10 pictures into two rows '''doesn't mean it's a good idea''''.  I absolutely ''loathe'' that pictures which '''are not clearly canonical''' are included in the infobox of a main character.  You'll never convince me that an image on a cover of a non-visual product "counts" for what that character is.  Audio and prose '''are not''' visual mediums, and we shouldn't be including one artist's representation of those Masters.  Not because, for example, the ''Dust Breeding'' Master ''isn't canonical'' himself, but because he does not come from a visual medium.  Charlotte Pollard does not look like India Fisher in my mind.  Lucie Miller does not look like the girl off ''Two Packets of Crisps''.  I am free to imagine such characters as I will, and a single artist's conception — especially if that person was working for a totally different company like Panini when he or she drew the image — is beyond unacceptable.  It's like takin' a Dickey Howett sketch from ''Doctor Who?'' and using it '''in the infobox''' of the Fifth Doctor. 
 
Guys, please, be reasonable.  We are illustrating one of the '''main''' characters in our little fictional world here.  The picture should represent the ''enduring'' images of the character.  Apparently two is too few for you guys for whatever reason.  At least make it a requirement of the picture that the included incarnations must:
 
*have been in at least one whole story
*have come from a story told in a visual medium
 
How bout we compromise and cut it to:
*Delgado
*One of the two decayed Masters
*Ainley
*Roberts
*The DWM "bald" Master from the Eighth Doctor's era
*Simm
 
That leaves us with six. Jacobi's out, because he didn't play the Master for but two minutes, and he's a minor (if important) part of the whole three-episode story. There's a reason he's not credited as playing the Master. The dude from DWM is in to quickly indicate there was more going on with the Master outside TV.  That's more than a fair compromise.  I only want two.  You guys want 10.  I'll settle for six.  More than meetin' ya halfway . . .  Six pictures will at least be easier to see at 250px width than '''ten'''.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''21:02:59 Sun&nbsp;'''10 Jul 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
[[file:TheFiveMasters.jpg|thumb|250px|right|I think the infobox image should use only "fresh" imaages.  One of the big drawbacks to all teh submissions so far is that they are simply recycling images found further down the page.]]
:Well, I didn't want to just offer comments without also giving a concrete candidate. I said that I'd offer a compromise of 6, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that a) that would only offer a very repetitive, symmetrical design and b) the "decrepit" master is really just the Delgado incarnation in decline.  Or at least it can certainly be argued that way.  So he didn't seem all that crucial to me.
 
:Here, then, are "The Five Masters".  This instantly tells a visual story.  We see Simm at the Master's finest hour, quite literally the moment the Master saves the universe.  Simm dominates the design because he's the current Master, but also Delgado, as the first Master, gets to be right at the heart of proceedings.  The DWM Master is there in slightly exaggerated propotions to his own importance, but this is because he's effectively standing in for all those non-TV Masters.  The pic instantly tells the reader, "Hey, there are ''other'' Masters out there besides these guys.  Finally, we've got Ainley and Roberts in small, but nicely clear and light pictures.  This isn't the "dresz for the occasion" moment tha gets way too much play; this is the more playful side of Roberts.  And it's the older, more contemplative Ainley of Survival. 
 
:Again, I think a Delgado/Simm split is fine, but this compromise with those of you who want the full 10 or 11 "slate" of Masters  is a good one.  It's got a radically different design than anything that's been proposed so far It's ''immediately'' clear who all five images are, even at 250px, and none of the pictures have been used yet on this wiki.  Thanks for considering it, and I look forward to your comments.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''04:22:40 Mon&nbsp;'''11 Jul 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
::So we can't show the image I added then? [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 07:07, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
For the record, the Delgado/Simm splits use new images that I "collected". However, it's possible someone has uploaded similar images before. Anyway, I like Czech's image style, but I think your side lining all but Simm. I can't really see a way around this apart from expanding the image so it's probably a good bet.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 10:07, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
<nowiki>Insert non-formatted text here</nowiki>
 
Then let's go back to the image I originally wanted, with just the TV Masters. Is that OK? Or do you want the alternative, which shows all the Masters televised or not? Because something ''must'' be agreed on, this consversation has gone on too long. When it finishes, which hopefully will be soon, I'll archive it. [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 12:11, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
It's not gone on too long, we are trying to come to an agreement. I doesn't matter how long it takes. No, we should '''not''' use the "TV Masters" image.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 12:32, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
Then we move onto the all-Masters image. How about that then? [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 12:23, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
Have you read CzechOut's points above?--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 12:32, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
:We need to continue this dicussion how ever long it take, until we reach a conclusion. We might get new ideas and better ideas while it still going on. I do like the 10 Master image, I really do as it shows all the know incarnations of the Master, which the page is about. How ever, I also like CzechOut's idea, but a couple of changes, the Simm Master's image needs to be made small (perhaps moving it left a bit) and down the top left hand size, there should be two smaller Master images (like there is on the bottom right) this could be another comic strip and the child? Or the Master from the start of the TV movie. I agree with not including Yana: he was under the influence on the [[Chameleon Arch]] and was never credited as the Master, and as we saw with the Doctor, they don't really act like they normally would when under the influence of the Chameleon Arch, they can in away become someone else, and that why Yana should not be include.
 
:There are other possibilities. We do what we did with the Cyberman page. Remove the infobox and just have the image at the top of the page (first Master, a comic Master (to show he lives and appear in comics and not just TV and then the last Master) or just have no infobox and no image and just have a small description of each incarnation at a point on the page, and have an image for each Master next to it. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 12:40, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
::What's wrong with the all-Masters image? [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 12:56, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::What one? The eleven Master or the 10 Master? [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 14:39, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
::::The 10 Master one. [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 16:15, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::::Then read [[User:CzechOut]]'s comments above, and you may find your answer. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 16:24, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
::::::BroadcastCorp., leave archiving this discussion to an admin as we don't want to jump the gun on this heated discussion.
::::::I also like CzechOut's design change, I don't quite agree with the all the requirements, but certainly at least one whole story is a good requirement to help us limit our scope. I would prefer to have Delgado as a main image, but, I understand the constraints of the image and of the source material the Simm image is wider than images of the others, and especially in this new format it limits what we can do with some images. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 16:34, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 
[[file:Alternate-ten-masters.jpg|250px|thumb|What do you think of this then, quite similar to the Eleven Doctors image.]]
Okay, so, CzechOut, how 'bout this: This is an alternative version of the Ten-masters image: [[User:BroadcastCorp.|BroadcastCorp.]] 08:20, July 12, 2011 (UTC)
 
I like that, it does contain all the tv incarnations, plus the other media incarnations, and it repeats the same structure as the doctor's image. --[[User:Ceryu|Ceryu]] 03:01, July 13, 2011 (UTC)
 
::All you've done is taken the same images and rearrange them into an even uglier pattern that now has literal white space built in to it..  No.  You just keep presenting the same visual concepts over and and over again — none of which are very far away from the original picture that was on the page and started this mess in the first place.  You're just re-inventing the wheel and addressing ''none'' of my concerns.  I don't see it as a virtue that this repeats the structure of the infobox image at [[the Doctor]].  ''That'' image needs to be corrected and slimmed down, too.  We don't need all eleven Doctors to illustrate the concept of the Doctor any more than we need all these Masters. What made ''[[A Journal of Impossible Things (Human Nature)|A Journal of Impossible Things]]'' and the flashback in ''[[The Lodger (TV story)|The Lodger]]'' so interesting visually was that they weren't just a flat recitation of all previous incarnations.  It was just a hint of the past to indicate the different lifetimes; it wasn't '''all''' of them in shot simultaneously. 
 
::So that's content. Give the flavour.  Don't bore me with every detail of the whole meal. 
 
::Stylistically, variety of picture size is the key to making an acceptable design. You keep doing the "Hollywood Squares" grid, or variations on that.  Every pic is the same size, and you're just shuffling them around a grid.  That's just ''boring''.  Use unexpected geometry for greater interest. 
 
::Honestly, the last design makes me feel like you're not even listening to my objections and attempting compromise.  So I'll say it all again. The Dust Breeding Master is an absolute no go, because that's a Master from a totally non-visual medium.  The Tipple Master is no good, because there's no narrative guarantee that's a different guy from Ainley. Plus, that's not even a clear picture of him, but of his prison cell.  The child Master is a no go, because according to other stories, he wouldn't have even ''been'' the Master at this point, and because the actor didn't even speak on e damn line.  I don't think you need the decrepit Master because the narrative implication is that he's the same guy as Delgado.  And we seem to have achieved a kind  of agreement elsewhere in the thread that Jacobi is largely playing Yana, not the Master.  Seriously, you don't need more than the five images I've put up to illustrate this topic.  If you don't like the exact design I've done, fine.  Do another one.  Set yourself the problem of doing five images in such a way that there's no white space.  See if you don't come up with a more interesting design than what you've given so far.  But don't come back with a 10-image one, cause that shows no willingness to compromise.  I (and others) want 2; some people have argued for TV-only; others seem basically good with the notion that the incarnation has to have been in one full story; you (and others) want 10 or 11.  So let's just cut to the chase, go to the middle ground of five Masters and be done with it.  These five Masters are a good compromise of everyone's position in this thread.  I'm not saying you have to love my design, but keeping to those five represents a compromise that will let us move forward.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''04:38:16 Wed&nbsp;'''13 Jul 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
===Summarising images so far===
This discussion has been going on for...some time, so here's a quick summary of the images that have been uploaded so far;
 
*[[:File:Six-masters.jpg|The image]] of the six television Masters was suggested by Cortion.
:Countered by numerous users for ''not'' including any other media.
Following intense discussion a compromise to have a "summary" image of the first and last Masters so far.
*[[:File:Delgado and friend.jpg|This]] and [[:File:Delgado and friend 2.jpg|this]] image, both featuring Delgado and Simm were suggested by Skittles the hog.
After another discussion it appeared the desire was for [[:File:Eleven Masters.png|this image]] of the "Eleven Masters" be returned to the page, as it was in previous edits of the article.
Following this another discussion was engaged, deciding the Deathworm Master was not an image that should be featured.
*[[:File:Nine-masters.jpg|This image]] was then suggested by BroadcastCorp, featuring Nine Masters (omitting the child, pre-TVM and Deathworm images)
*Then [[:File:Ten-masters-archived.jpg|this image of ten Masters]] was suggested, also by BroadcastCorp, this included all of the previous Eleven Masters images, ''except'' the Deathworm Master.
*A re-designed image was suggested by CzechOut, [[:File:TheFiveMasters.jpg|this image]] using a different layout from previous images, featuring Simm, the DWM Master, Delgado, Ainley and Roberts
This redesign was noted as being a departure from previous designs, utilising different sized images and different screenshots to those previously featured.
*BroadcastCorp. then suggested [[:File:Ten-masters.jpg|this image]], using the same images from [[:File:Ten-masters-archived.jpg|this image]] but re-arranged.
 
So, just so everyone can see all the images lined up;
<gallery>
File:Eleven Masters.png|Eleven Masters image, originally on article, uploaded March 2011
File:Six-masters.jpg|Six TV Masters, uploaded by Cortion
File:Delgado and friend.jpg|First and most recent Master (1) uploaded by Skittles the hog
File:Delgado and friend 2.jpg|First and most recent Master (2) uploaded by Skittles the hog
File:Eight-masters.jpg|Eight Masters uploaded by BroadcastCorp.
File:Nine-masters.jpg|Nine Masters uploaded by BroadcastCorp.
File:Ten-masters.jpg|Ten Masters uploaded by BroadcastCorp.
File:TheFiveMasters.jpg|Five Masters uploaded by CzechOut
File:Alternate-ten-masters.jpg|Alternate Ten Masters image uploaded by BroadcastCorp.
</gallery>
 
[[Top 10 list:Which image of the Master should we use?|Please vote on these images]], so that we can get an idea of how to at least thin down this list. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''17:04:34 Thu&nbsp;'''14 Jul 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
:While the vote seems like a good idea, it's only thinned the list by two, and they were the two images that we'd already discounted through discussion.
:So, as deciding on specific images hasn't lead us to a clear winner we need to work out a frame work for the future.
:Through various discussions above we've decided that:
 
:*The image should be of "the Master" images that '''aren't''' the Master are; the child (because he hadn't taken on the title of 'the Master' then) and the Deathworm (because it's not a regeneration).
:*It needs to include images from different mediums, not just TV.
 
 
:What hasn't been so clear is if we want/need all the Masters in the image, CzechOut and Skittles the hog's images show images that ''don't'' have all the Masters in one image.
 
<poll>
Should the image have all or some of the Masters?
All
Some
</poll>
 
:Also do we want a symmetric grid-based layout as seen by Cortion and BroadcastCorp.'s main contributions or a different layout as seen by CzechOut's contribution?
 
<poll>
Should the image be a grid or different arrangement?
Grid
Different
</poll>
 
--[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 17:20, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
:I strongly disagree with this new voting criterion that TD has advanced.  I think it fails to interpret the original vote correctly.  The choice of "some Masters/All masters" is completely disregarding the vote, because the top four images have between then 10 votes.  60% of voters chose an image with either 5 or 6 Masters.  '''That question has already been decided'''.  There is a ''clear'' preference in the original round of voting for an image with does ''not'' include the non-visual-medium Masters.
 
:The second question TD has asked is a good one, but it's not how I would have gone.  If we simply say that a minimum of two votes must be had to proceed into the next round, then we're left with a significantly thinned list.
 
:We only have:
<gallery>
File:Six-masters.jpg|Six TV Masters, uploaded by Cortion
File:Ten-masters.jpg|Ten Masters uploaded by BroadcastCorp.
File:TheFiveMasters.jpg|Five Masters uploaded by CzechOut
File:Alternate-ten-masters.jpg|Alternate Ten Masters image uploaded by BroadcastCorp.
</gallery>
 
<poll>
Which of the above do you like?
Six
Ten
Five
Alternate Ten
</poll>
 
:I think this should be the basis of our next round of voting, with the top two vote-getters going into the final found. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''20:14:18 Sun&nbsp;'''24 Jul 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
::I didn't mean to disaffect anyone. 
::Just, as I said discussions in this theme sometimes run our of steam, I was trying to settle on a style guide to inform us in the future, rather than specific images. ''Just'' in case anyone ventured to add a new image for the article I wanted a clear idea of where the community was, in the simplest of terms. So that we don't have to go through this again in 6 months time or something.   
::Prior to this poll we had a too large a spread of images to see a clear picture of things. But CzechOut's new poll has simplified things more-so from the Top-10 list. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:41, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::No worries. Turns out I was wrong to have gone for my version of the second round poll, too.
 
:::Thing is, I now think we have to disqualify all but [[:file:TheFiveMasters.jpg]].  The others, it turns out, are '''canonically invalid''', and not just because two of the four uses images of a non-visual incarnation, as interpreted by a freelancer for DWM.  No, all three of the others include the so-called [[The Master (Tersurus)|Terserus (i.e. Fourth Doctor) Master]] and he is, canonically, the same incarnation as the Delgado Master.  As revealed in [[EDA]]: ''[[Legacy of the Daleks]]'', [[Susan Foreman|Susan]] uses her psychic powers to cause a feedback in his TARDIS console, which thereby burns and mangles his flesh.  I had always suspected that, but didn't realise it was actually canon until I listened to this months DW Book Club podcast.  And it really ''is'' there in black and white. The scene couldn't be more explicit.  So, we can't really have an infobox image which uses two images of the same incarnation.  It'd be like having a picture of the ''Meglos'' Fourth Doctor and the ''Robot'' Fourth Doctor on [[The Doctor]]'s infobox page.  Yes, radically different appearance, but it's still the same guy.
 
:::We currently have no other candidates that have omitted the Beaver/Pratt Master, so either we take mine, or we allow people to re-submit with the "late Delgado" Master omitted.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''03:52:04 Fri&nbsp;'''29 Jul 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
:::BTW, please see [[Talk:The Master (Tersurus)]] for extended passages from ''[[Legacy of the Daleks]]'' that show why we can't consider the Pratt/Beavers Master as a separate incarnation from the Delgado Master.  They are merely different actors playing the same incarnation at different points in his life.  We would never consider putting a picture of any of the three actors who played young [[Sarah Jane]]s into ''that'' character's infobox, so we clearly can't consider doing that here.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''05:03:37 Fri&nbsp;'''29 Jul 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
Well by that logic, isn't the Ainley Master also the same incarnation, since he is just the Pratt/Beevers Master inhabiting Tremas?[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 08:20, July 29, 2011 (UTC)
:Well, I've long argued that all these separate Master pages are illogical for that very reason.  However, the difference, one could argue, with the Ainley Master is that he is at least the mingling of the Delgado Master with ''another being'' (Tremas), and is therefore biologically distinct from the Delgado Master — or at least ''arguably'' so.  What ''can't'' be argued, however, is that there is any genetic/incarnational distinction between the Delgado Master and the Pratt version.  The Pratt version is just the Delgado version after having received permanent injuries. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}'''02:36:20 Sat&nbsp;'''30 Jul 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
I see where you are coming from. But the dacayed Master is said to be his thriteenth incarnation, the Delgado Master isn't. For all we know, he could have regenerated, and put himself into such a horrible state. [[File:Bc.png|50px|link=http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/User:BroadcastCorp]] [[File:Talk-broadcast-corp.png|80px|link=http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:BroadcastCorp]] [[File:Slash.png|20px]] '''08:39:58 Sat'''
 
:This is just becoming all the more complicated.
:I should have remembered ''Legacy's'' scenes with the Master.
:I'd suggest either using CzechOut's or using Skittles' earlier submitted image of Delgado and Simm. Skittles' image was one we settled on at one point in the discussion. Though CzechOut's has been voted within both sets of polls as being preferred by a little under half the vote, but now it seems is the only valid in the poll.
:Ultimately I think that CzechOut's image supports the idea of an infobox as summarising the article. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:24, July 30, 2011 (UTC)
 
If we are considering the Pratt/Beevers Master to be the same incanation as the Delgado Master, then shouldn't there pages be merged?[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 04:45, July 31, 2011 (UTC)
 
:I think that we should go ahead and use [[User:CzechOut]]'s image. [[User:Mini-mitch|MM]]/<small>[[User talk:Mini-mitch|Want to talk?]]</small> 11:57, August 12, 2011 (UTC)
 
::I'm all for it.
::Let's use CzechOut's image. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 17:48, August 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
I don't want CzechOut's image. It's only got five Masters. Why would you want this picture? [[User:BroadcastCorp|BroadcastCorp]] <small>([[User talk:BroadcastCorp|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/BroadcastCorp|contribs]])</small> 09:14, August 16, 2011 (UTC)
 
Well, it fits the criteria: shows there are multiple Masters, is aesthetically pleasing and has the approval of many Wikia users. Having every Master is not necessary. Exactly what is wrong with the image?--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 09:22, August 16, 2011 (UTC)
:I want doesn't get. CzechOut has given numerous reasons above. [[User:Mini-mitch|MM]]/<small>[[User talk:Mini-mitch|Want to talk?]]</small> 09:32, August 16, 2011 (UTC)
 
I know. "I want does not get". Any person knows that. I changed my mind. I love the new image. [[User:BroadcastCorp|BroadcastCorp]] <small>([[User talk:BroadcastCorp|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/BroadcastCorp|contribs]])</small> 15:53, August 21, 2011 (UTC)
==Revisitation==
:::Just one issue. I like the image, but I dislike how Simm takes up 50% of the screen. You argue that the Jacobi Master shouldn't be featred in the Image due to his short time playing The Master, a fair argument, but [[Anthony Ainley]], The most frequenlt returning Master, takes up 18% of the Screen, and is barely visable. I think it should be redesigned, with Ainley sharing half of the top w/ Simm, and the Bottom being shared by The Fallen, Delgato and Roberts.
 
[[File:The_Masters.jpg|thumb]]I suggest this-slightly re-touched version instead.--[[User:OttselSpy25|OttselSpy25]] <sup>[[User talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me]]</sup> 23:16, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
Ainley may have been in more episodes than any other Master, but Delgado was much more significant to the role than he was. Delgado was the first actor to play the Master, and until a few years into the Fourth Doctor's tenure he was the only actor to play him. The Ainley Master is arguably the same incarnation as him. He was clearly meant to emulate the original version anyway-how many other regenerations (or possessions or whatever) have you seen in the show, where the Time Lords new incarnation has the same basic look as the old one, and has a similar personality, but is played by a different actor. The Master's actual Time Lord body should be considered more important than an unfortunate Trakenite who he happenned to be possessing anyway. It would be like if we considered Idris to be an equally important image on the Doctor's Tardis's page because it posesssed her for a bit. The image is fine the way it is, and I don't think that anyone wants to spend another several months arguing over a new one.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 23:31, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
 
::Yeah, I'm sorry, but you're kinda late to this particular party, [[user:OttselSpy25|OttselSpy25]].  This discussion was effectively closed when the current picture was put on the page.  We spent months and months debating this issue, and the present image represents our best efforts at a community decision. 
 
::The thing is that there is no single ''right'' answer for how to organise the picture.  You seem to be suggesting that there should be some sort of correlation between image size and length of time in the role.  Others have said that no incarnation is "better" than another, so all should have the same space.  The current design isn't based on the qualities of the individual actors so much as the orientation of the source material.  They're all valid choices, and we had to just pick one.
 
::Which we've now done.
 
::Like [[user:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]], I can't imagine any of the participants are particularly willing to re-open this can of worms, especially since your image is just a remix of the current picture. 
 
::Thanks for your contribution, though! {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}00:32: Thu&nbsp;20 Oct 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
:::Well, in truth, it was just ment to try an even out the images of each Master, as the 2 Smaller pics kinda bugg me. However, I'm not going to argue over this,
for it is one of the less important things on the Wiki. Thanks for your imput. --[[User:OttselSpy25|OttselSpy25]] <sup>[[User talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me]]</sup> 00:50, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
==The Master's disappearence==
One thing is REALLY annoying me on this wiki regarding The Master's "disapperence" at the end of [[The End of Time (TV story)]], is that the pages [[The Master]] & [[The Master (Harold Saxon)]] both previously listed The Master and being taken back into the time war with [[Rassilon]] & The TimeLords. However I have yet to see conclusive production evidence of this fact i.e. Russell or someone stating this is fact (and as you can never really kill off the classic villian's like The Master/Davros etc) surely it makes me sense to assume The Master "died" burning up his own life-force as the [[Tenth Doctor]] states he is doing earlier on in the episode. Who agrees?? [[User:0TheTenthDoctor0|0TheTenthDoctor0]] 17:00, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
 
 
I agree with you. I assumed that the Master used up the last of his life force taking revenge on Rassilon, and thus perished as the Time Lords and Gallifrey fell back into the Time War. Besides, I personally can't really see how the Master could've fallen back into the War with the Time Lords since he didn't even use the link to escape the War. [[User:TroopDude|TroopDude]] [[User talk:TroopDude|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:48, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:27, 14 March 2024

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 Archives: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8

How to refer to each incarnation of the Master[[edit source]]

Well, I think some of us were hoping it'd be simpler, but the fact that Talk:The Master (The TV Movie) discussion and Talk:The Master (The Keeper of Traken) are going on at the same time with seemingly different ideas made me think we should just discuss this. This is not necessarily meant to be a discussion to determine a name or page title for each Master; those should still happen on their talk page. This is just a discussion on having consistency between them.

This long comment started as something I was going to write for Talk:The Master (The TV Movie), with me saying I think it should either be both Tremas Master and Bruce Master, or both The Master (The TV Movie) and The Master (The Keeper of Traken), for consistency. …But then in the latter case, arguably some of the others should also use disambiguation terms. I personally think that for the "main" Masters (i.e. those not ambiguous or from another reality) should either all use descriptions for page titles, with the possible exception of The Master (Terror of the Autons) (the reason for which is currently discussed on his talk page and should remain there), or all use disambiguation terms, with the exceptions of Decayed Master, War Master, Missy and the Lumiat. Having any other sort of mixed arrangement would just be confusing. Please note I am not saying the wiki must subscribe to the above dichotomy, just that I think it needs to be discussed. But there's another problem:

Initially I too subscribed to the story dab pattern, for neutrality. But the problem is, the incarnations still need a name to be referred to with in articles to specify them. We can't say "The Doctor met the Master (Dominion)." in an article. It'd have to be something like "The Doctor met the Reborn Master." This means even if they're not page titles, descriptive names are necessary anyway. There are a few proposed names that work well enough with their story titles, like "Traken Master" (from The Keeper of Traken) or "Spy Master" (from Spyfall). But for most of them, a different name is needed to maintain an in-universe perspective, and because the text of the wiki will be using these names to identify the incarnations, it makes sense to me to have them be the page names anyhow, regardless of what they actually are. I am not 100% against using names on pages and disambiguation terms for (most) titles, which is essentially the status quo, but I think the page title should reflect how the character is almost always referred to on the wiki…

Last note, this is a bit pedantic, but I think it makes a difference: I think descriptive names which are derived from a name themselves should use quotes— basically, "Tremas" Master instead of Tremas Master, "Bruce" Master instead of Bruce Master, and "Saxon" Master instead of Saxon Master. This not only reads better to me, for example alleviating concerns that "Bruce Master" sounds like, and probably is, some guy's name, but also better conveys the reasons those names are being used. Currently quotes are variably used for all descriptive names (particularly with coverage of Masterful you might see something like "the 'Young' Master"), but I think that's too difficult to read and that is the best way to use them. Chubby Potato ☎ 05:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

As previously mentioned at Talk:Fugitive Doctor, on no account should we use quotes for the actual page names (e.g. it is and will remain Decayed Master, not "Decayed" Master). This interferes with searchability and is ungainly besides. Big Finish's own box set titles don't say The "War" Master, either; nor do the Masterful credits from which we derive the proposed Saxon Master, Reborn Master or Tremas Master renames use such quotation marks.
This point aside, my intuition thus far is that we use quotation marks when pipe-linking dabbed The Master (Something) pages for clarity — precisely to emphasise that something is a nickname which isn't really that page's proper title. For example, the "UNIT era" Master. This is informal practice and that discussion would be in a position to reform it, though, myself, I think it's intuitive enough. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Scrooge, you're drawing an equivalence between quite unlike things. Of course we don't use "Fugitive" Doctor or "Decayed" Master, since those names are straightforwardly descriptive of each character in their entirety. But there is a straightforward difference between those names and names which are based on identities used only temporarily by the characters. "Missy" is not an alias in the same way that "Harold Saxon" is.
I very much like Chubby's suggestion. This is what it would take for me to get on board with some otherwise-repulsive suggestions: it makes "Bruce Master" sound less like the name of my next-door neighbor, and it suitably contextualizes the conjectural leap we're making in incarnation naming. In particular, I disagree with the idea that this would interfere with searchability in any way. Quote marks work fine in the search bar, and now that Fandom has made search work better with redirects, typing the same name without quotes will return the same result in a transparent fashion. Neither search nor precedent is an argument against this proposal. – n8 (☎) 14:47, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of the quotation marks. Whilst I can understand why people might want to use them for Tremas, Saxon and Bruce, I'm 100% against using them for the Reborn Master; "reborn" is an adjective, just like "decayed", so I don't see why it would be treated any differently. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 20:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
No one has suggested using them for the Reborn Master. I would also be opposed to such a thing. – n8 (☎) 21:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I would choose Bruce Master over "Bruce" Master, Saxon Master over "Saxon" Master, Tremas Master over "Tremas" Master, Keller Master over "Keller" Master, etc. Aesthetics aside, the key problem here, which I'm surprised people are overlooking, is that placing quotation marks around part of a name does not actually communicate "this name is unofficial" in any clear or intuitive way. They could just as easily be read as some sort of quotation from some unspecified in-universe or out-of-universe source, or as in-universe nicknames (since quotation marks commonly signify a nickname when used for some but not all component words in a name; for example Punished "Venom" Snake from Metal Gear). With or without them, the wiki would still be making the same arbitrary call to employ the alias / host's name as an adjective when it was never used as such officially. That's OK by me - there's some objective, factual basis to describing Roberts's character "the Bruce Master", Simm's "the Saxon Master", etc - but if we're doing it, we should commit to doing it properly, in a way that gives the reader an uncluttered, consistent experience. Quotation marks are just confusing and distracting in this context. If a name is deemed so dodgy that it requires quotation marks, then we should just continue to disambiguate by debut appearance. PintlessMan ☎ 21:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

My vote would go to: The "Bruce" Master, The "Tremas" Master and The "Saxon" Master - with quotation marks as shown. To me, this indicates they are The Master but that there are sub-names to differentiate and distinguish them. Conversely, I wouldn't use quotation marks for The War Master, as there are countless examples of that name being used widely across various releases. FractalDoctor ☎ 00:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I can’t believe I forgot to comment on this earlier. I am in support of “Bruce” Master and its ilk (with obvious exceptions for the War Master and the Decayed Master). While I personally find the premise of quotation marks in the link name to be aesthetically unappealing, it goes a long way in assuaging the concerns of those more skeptical about these sort of names. Likewise, it is how they’ve historically been used in-line. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 13:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
I would very much like to throw my two cents into this conversation. I think that whenever possible, we should note what number regeneration each Master is, much like the Doctor or the General. We obviously don't know for all of them, but we do know the numbers for a few. The Decayed Master is the Thirteenth Master, the Tremas Master is the Fourteenth Master, the First Frontier Master is the Fifteenth Master, the Bruce Master is the Sixteenth Master, the Preacher Master is the Seventeenth Master, and the Reborn Master is the Eighteenth Master. If we wanted to guess (even if we're not absolutely certain) we can even assume that the War Master is the Nineteenth Master and the Saxon Master is the Twentieth Master. I just think it makes things more orderly on here, which is something we could definitely use given the convoluted history of this character. -- MattTheNerd42 ☎ 17:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
What's your source for the numbering? Aquanafrahudy 📢 17:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Whether stolen bodies even count is significantly controversial, but the problem is that if they do, then (depending on accounts) no numbering can be relied upon. In Mastermind and Short Trips: The Centenarian a post-TVM Beevers Master steals a number of bodies for varying periods of time, in just the same way he stole Roberts's. If we counted them all, then Macqueen might be, like, the Thirty-First.
Moreover, BF only inconsistently acknowledge the events of First Frontier; the Dust Breeding account bypasses it entirely, claiming that Ainley was reverted directly to Beevers. (This implies that Tipple in the TVM was a stolen body he acquired at some point — but we cannot assume that there was just one in that gap, so it doesn't necessarily "make up" the numbers with a different-but-equivalent "Fifteenth Master"!) Then, of course, there's the accounts where it's Ainley who's placed on trial, like The Eight Doctors, which would make your count come up one short, making Roberts the Fifteenth…
Also, some accounts claim that the Decayed Master was just a decayed version of Delgado, making Delgado the Thirteenth Master as well. Covering them on the same page is obviously not desirable, but we can't just act as though Beevers was the only possible Thirteenth candidate. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 18:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
And the Preacher Master can't be the Seventeenth Master, because The Master (The Curse of Fatal Death) is. Well, he could be an alternate incarnation, but it's clearly not so straightforward as it seems. Aquanafrahudy 📢 18:18, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's really possible to assign numbers. The waters are too murky. At this point, even if Sacha Dhawan showed up again on screen and proclaimed "I am the Xth Master" it would still be arguable. Also, even if we did have one or two numbers, nobody ever refers to them as such - nobody says "I loved the Twelfth Master" in the same way we might say "I loved the Twelfth Doctor" for example — Fractal Doctor @ 21:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure I completely agree there. If a new Master was introduced as "[Numeral] Master", we don't have the right to reject that name even if it doesn't sit well with other sources that depict more or less incarnations of the Master up until that point.
We shouldn't make up incarnation numbers, but if one ever officially exists, we should use it. (Maybe as "according to one account".)
We don't elect to not use "Fourteenth Doctor" even though he is technically the sixteenth (inc. War Doctor and the VanityTen) or perhaps the the thirty-third (inc. Timeless Children, Fugitive Doctor, "Morbius" Doctors). 21:16, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Fair points. I did say it would be debatable though, not that we should dismiss it immediately out of hand. In such an instance, I think "according to one account" would work. In any case, I doubt this would ever happen, unless it's done jokingly (similar to Smith's Doctor telling Clyde he could regenerate 507 times). — Fractal Doctor @ 21:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images[[edit source]]

Although tabs haven't yet been implemented here yet, following the discussion at Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Replacing docpic, I have a potential way to let us have the tabs listed chronologically but with the most recent incarnation selected by default which I have presented at Talk:The Doctor#Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images. It could easily be applied here as well. Bongo50 ☎ 22:06, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Tabbed gallery[[edit source]]

I note this page still needs a tabbed gallery. The Doctor page works well starting from the first known incarnation, so maybe the Master should follow suit (except with "A", "B", "C", etc.) Fractal Doctor ☎ 11:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. Done, though as stated in my thread closure, the option of switching out this or that image is of course available. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 13:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, Scrooge MacDuck. Is the absence of a certain Destination Wars Master on purpose? Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:00, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
As I just finished telling User:Jack "BtR" Saxon, it's "on purpose" in the sense that I was sticking with his absence from {{masterpic}} and with the basic precedent of not including the "according to one account" pre-Delgado incarnations established by the prior decision against including Brayshaw on the template. Also, aside from his controversial existence, it stands to reason that we don't want a somewhat "random" incarnation like Dreyfus to be the perennial default thumbnail instead of Delgado. All of this is in line with Jo Martin & friends not being represented on The Doctor. But Jack argues that we do include the also-controversial John Hurt at The Doctor, so perhaps we could consider the place of the pre-Delgado Masters on this one. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

This might be too outlandish an idea but just a thought I had, that could solve that (here and on other pages) - would it be possible to have a secondary tabbed gallery maybe further down the page, containing miscellaneous/somewhat ambiguous incarnations. I'm guessing it would have some pushback, and could be viewed as confusing, but it's just a suggestion.

I do think this page should begin with Delgado because of the reasons you stated. Worth noting that we do include Hurt in the tabbed Doctor gallery, and we include the Lumiat in this one (as well as others). The only difference with Dreyfus is that he's pre-Delgado and so instead of being mid-gallery, he'd be eternally at the beginning/the default starting image, and I completely understand why a lot of people wouldn't want this. (I wouldn't want this either, but is there an alternative, other than just leaving him out?) Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, as I said, the alternative would be to start with William Hughes, thus sandwiching him away. But I would find it hard to justify including these two and not other alleged pre-Delgado Masters e.g. the War Chief, and that might get very controversial very quickly (I would be willing to bite the bullet of including Peter Butterworth, but I don't think many people would! This is just what we have the "no controversial information in infoboxes" rule of thumb for.)
As regards a more thorough gallery of incarnations, this sounds like a very good use of the proposed usage of galleries on in-universe page, which is currently against policy but is one of the proposals currently rising through the Temp Forums propositions table. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
I don't think the likes of the Monk and the War Chief are comparable to the likes of Parker and Dreyfus. With the Monk and the War Chief, there are conflicting accounts on whether or not they are the Master. There's no such confusion with Parker and Dreyfus. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 14:15, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, Scrooge.

I'm probably opening a huge can of worms (and maybe not in the best suited place) by asking about the War Chief and what the evidence is for and against him being an incarnation of the Master, but I think it's worth noting that Dreyfus' incarnation was invented as, and specifically designed to be an earlier incarnation of the Master, and I think there's a debate about that warranting inclusion. I've just had a look at your back-and-forth with Jack "BtR" Saxon, and both of you raise good points. I think it's a debate to be had though at some stage, and good note about the upcoming galleries discussion. That could solve some issues down the line.

(I wrote this before seeing Jack's response just now. I'm sitting on the fence and viewing both sides, but ultimately I'm siding with Jack's reasoning here, if I'm honest.) Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

@Jack, they're not exactly the same situation, sure, but there are certainly accounts by which lights no such persons as Parker or Dreyfus's Masters could have existed (The Dark Path positing that Koschei didn't call himself "the Master" yet by the time he left Gallifrey is the obvious one). Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Tangential question: is Parker meant to be the same incarnation as the 'child' we saw in The Sound of Drums flashback, or not? Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

On the whole I'm less concerned about specific cases than about what a giant can of worms pre-Delgado Masters are, such that starting the infobox at Delgado just seems like the cutoff point that will cause the fewest headaches. It's a line in the sand, not a natural boundary, but it's a common-sense sort of line in the sand that readers will easily grok as saying "we're starting with Delgado for IRL reasons/sanity" rather than a judgment-call statement of "such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters count more than such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters". A full gallery elsewhere on the page, if the Temp Forums pass that reform, would then sound like quite an attractive proposal to supplement it.
(Re: Parker/Hughes… that's another controversial one. Per recent BTS quotes, it seems that yes, but that's ambiguous in the stories themselves, particularly as they have some conspicuous physical differences e.g. eye colour. So that's another area of possible contention.) Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not gunna die on this hill, and I'd be happy to wait until the Temp Forum discussion happens regarding a potential alternative before continuing this debate.

I also note here that there may even be a hint of Big Finish muddying the waters themselves anyway, or subtly trying to retcon a few things in light of IRL events surrounding Dreyfus and his positioning anyway? Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

If the preacher (who appears in half as many stories as Dreyfus) and the Asian child (who is apparently not even intended to be a mainline Master) are included, there's no justification for excluding Dreyfus. Including pre-Delgado incarnations is no more "opening a can of worms" than including post-Delgado ones. I think we should either stick with major TV incarnations (as on The Doctor) or include the lot, not this weird middle ground. PintlessMan ☎ 16:32, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

It has been nearly half a year with no further discussion. Again, given the inclusion of the Preacher and the Child, there is no excuse for excluding the Inventor, an actual mainline Master who is named "The Master", appears as the main Master in multiple stories, and is explicitly positioned prior to Delgado. Can we please get this resolved now? PintlessMan ☎ 23:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
No we cannot. To begin with, it is non-trivial that his "being named 'the Master' and appears as the main Master in multiple stories" is operative with regards to why he should be included, but not Hughes/Parker or Butterworth or Brayshaw or Magnus.
But more importantly, I still think there is no reason to include Dreyfus here if we do not include Jo Martin at The Doctor (she explicitly the Doctor by name, explicitly before the currently-earliest incarnation in the gallery, and has begun appearing as the lead in her own stories). And I don't believe we should do either of those things. There is a long-standing policy of keeping controversial in-universe information out of infoboxes (hence "The Doctor's species" being used in all Doctors' species field). Although it can be bent on a case-by-case basis, I think setting things such that incarnations whose very existence is highly dependent on contradictory accounts, like any of the pre-Delgado Masters or the various pre-Hartnell Doctors, would appear as the page's default thumbnail in categories and Google searches, would be in stark violation of the spirit of that policy. How recurring the Inventor or Fugitive might become doesn't enter into it. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
I personally think that the CoFD Master should get a look in, although the question of exactly where to place him is something of a conundrum. Aquanafrahudy 📢 11:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
On the other hand, of course, we could place him between Bruce and Preacher. Aquanafrahudy 📢 16:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Relationship between Master and Meddling Monk[[edit source]]

I see this site now uses FASA narrative as valid. And it contains something that may settle the controversial issue once and for all. Peter Butterworth's character in The Time Meddler is said to be the Master, but then we also have a "Meddling Monk" in Follow That TARDIS!, plus Rufus Hound in Big Finish Audios. So, how can Butterworth be the Master, AND Hound be a Time Lord unambiguously separate from the Master called "the Meddling Monk"?

The FASA narrative explictly states that in 1066(The Time Meddler) the Master disguised himself as the Meddling Monk. And that this wasn't one of his(the Master's) best schemes. So, in the same way David Morrissey in The Next Doctor wasn't actually The Doctor, Peter Butterworth in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan WAS NOT ACTUALLY THE MEDDLING MONK. He was the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk.

So, while there may be a Mortimus/Meddling Monk separate to the Master, the guy in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan was NOT the Meddling Monk. It was the Master DISGUISED AS the Meddling Monk. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 197.87.143.20 (talk).

Oh good, you again.
Well, according to one account, yes. (Though it's reading the text against itself to imagine that in FASA's account there is such a thing as a real Monk who simply is not the one who actually appears in The Time Meddler.) But according to other accounts it was in fact a distinct guy in Time Meddler. There are conflicting accounts, and this is not a problem, this is not something that needs to be "settled", it's just a fact. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 09:33, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

"Quote marks"[[edit source]]

We finally ditched the quote marks from "The Doctor", post-fork, should we do the same here? × Fractal • 21:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
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