Talk:Dalek

	Archives: #1, #2

Vehicle?

Why is "Dalek" under Category:Vehicles? Is it because it serves as a vehicle to the Kaled mutants? I didn't touch it because the category's involved in the Game of Rassilon, but can someone explain why? Thanks.
--SOTO ☎ 03:18, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

I know that in Genesis of the Daleks, Davros refers to them as "Mark III travel machines," perhaps that's why the category was added? TARDIStraveler ☎ 11:58, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, what TT said. Also, the casing regularly conveyed people in 1960s serials. I mean technically it's the casing that's the vehicle, but we don't really have an article for that.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  22:07: Fri 31 Jan 2014

Reviving this: we now have Casing. And Dalek War Machine. So…? --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:28, October 20, 2019 (UTC)

First time the Doctor saw the Daleks

Is there no scope for putting in the first time the Doctor saw the Daleks outside of its casing in The Daleks Master Plan.

Well, no, cause that's not the first time the Doctor saw the Kaled at the interior. That happened in the middle of serial B.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  22:07: Fri 31 Jan 2014

The Dalek That Time Forgot

On YouTube you can find a story called The Dalek That Time Forgot. It's about Dalek Caan travelling to the future, meeting the New Dalek Paradigm who orders him back in time to safe Skaro. When this is done they order him to safe Davros from the Time War, and gives him the power to see all of time and space. Is this a legit story to feature on the Wikia, or is this fan-made stuff? --DCLM ☎ 19:52, November 13, 2014 (UTC)

Fanmade. Impressive, but fanmade. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 14:17, October 22, 2018 (UTC)

Replace infobox image

Hello all. First discussion post here, so please let me know if I'm missing something important (formatting for the discussion, etc.).

I'd like to propose a change of the infobox image for the Dalek article. As far as I can tell, the current image (an altered clip from one of the comic book stories), was established by a consensus discussion back in 2011 or 2012. Time for a change? My opinion supporting replacement: Doctor Who is primarily a television show. Has been for decades. Most people know it as such. The comics are quite obscure to the average newcomer to DWU, and perhaps a significant portion of fans. While it's fun to put a comic image to show off how this project accepts all the material as canon, and to draw attention to the spin-off stories, I do still believe it is quite forced. I found the excellent image below from an old discussion thread, and strongly believes it does the Daleks more justice as they are known to most visitors and fans throughout the generations. Blue Rook ☎ 21:56, November 24, 2014 (UTC)

Proposed replacement

For

For the reasons described above. Blue Rook ☎ 21:56, November 24, 2014 (UTC)

Against

That image should not be used. It's clustered and unhelpful. Doctor Who is better known as a television show, but we cover all mediums equally - to change it on that basis would a betrayal of our own ideals. The current image isn't forced; it suits our needs perfectly. It shows different types of Daleks and is timeless, none of this "they're not the latest model" crap. Most importantly, it's incisive, which the image you have proposed is certainly not. I'm against changing it at all though, unless a particularly fantastic image surfaces that has merit in areas other than its medium.--Skittles the hog - talk 22:23, November 24, 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks for calling my recommendation "crap". Also I appreciate that you so quickly proved that the giant "Keep your cool" warning emblazoned across the edit screen does not apply to the sysops at this wiki. Blue Rook ☎ 02:15, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. I provided legitimate reasons why we shouldn't change the image, and instead of rebutting them, you're fabricating a personal attack. I said that choosing an image because it shows the latest Dalek is crap, which is not an argument you made, just a regular one. As for keeping cool, I don't think I became heated, unless you think the word crap is particularly forceful. I can only imagine this is a reaction to me shooting your proposition down, but I would appreciate it if you didn't falsely accuse me again. Thanks--Skittles the hog - talk 09:28, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

Both your replies are deeply confusing. Very few people would advise using the word "crap" when rebutting a civilized argument put forward for a change. It's not "forceful", it's insulting. I did not bother putting forward any specific rebuttals then, because in my experience there is no point trying to hold a discussion with someone whose replies are so ridiculing and defensive. I didn't "fabricate" anything, and there are no false accusations: when you throw a pejorative in, everything turns to mud. Worse is when you inserted what can reasonably be interpreted as a thinly-veiled threat: "I would appreciate it if you didn't falsely accuse me again". It is my opinion that that statement was a threat, and I would never conduct myself with statements like that to a civilized newcomer at my wiki. And if I did, I would apologize quite thoroughly (and not with a non-apology apology) in very short order, when I'd realize how ridiculing, defensive, and threatening it came off.

You have made it clear that changing this image on account of any medium discussion "would a betrayal of our own ideals". Since my proposal was primarily based on the medium, well, there's not much room for rebuttals anyway, then. I had no desire to rend asunder the underlying fabric of this project! 8)~ If you care about rebuttals at this point, though: I could not disagree more that a cropped image from a comic book is "timeless" when representing a fictional race known to the world almost exclusively from the medium of television. More broadly speaking, with respect to the exceptional comics that exist (Fables, Watchmen, etc.), "timeless" does not apply to comic books in general. They are quite fleeting. The images within them more so. And even doubly so when they are spin-off material from another medium. This is why I find it forced. Blue Rook ☎ 17:05, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I've made my statement where the image is concerned and I'll leave further discussion to other parties, but I will reply to the points on your talk page. One thing I would like to say here, for other users to see, is that I was not threatening you.--Skittles the hog - talk 19:04, November 25, 2014 (UTC)

Hi :) Thanks for you suggestion, Blue Rook. I'd like to move the discussion back to the substance of whether and how to change the infobox image on this page, if I may.

It is a truism of older wikis that new users don't have knowledge of the various discussions that have come before, and so can sometimes suggest things that have already been mooted by the community in the past. And that's what you're running into now. We have long ago moved away from the "collage" approach for characters/species with multiple (that is, more than 2) distinctive looks. On that basis alone, your proposal is disallowed.

However, it's worth pointing out that your specific suggestion has also already been suggested, and defeated. This image that you're proposing dates from 2011. Please see Talk:Dalek/Archive 2. Since the specific suggestion has already failed, and since the current infobox picture derives from a decent amount of discussion, it will remain. If you'd like to talk about it further, Blue Rook, I'm happy to entertain a few more questions on my talk page. But as we've already had this specific discussion before as a community, I'm going to ask you to please drop further discussion here.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  19:31: Tue 25 Nov 2014

Alrighty, I will put forward different ideas for a new image (unrelated to any medium discussion) here, and keep the other discussions to the User Talk pages. Blue Rook ☎ 20:40, November 26, 2014 (UTC)

New Infobox suggestion

Years ago we attempted to have a discussion on the infobox image for this page. At the time, I recall, there was great debate over weather the main infobox image should feature the original 60s Daleks, the RTD era Daleks, or the Moffat Skittles Daleks (I'm not knocking them, it's just that's a way to identify them that everyone gets). At the time, it was suggested by Czech to instead go with a different option -- that of an image from the TVC comics. That's worked wonderfully for a time, and I personally have been very happy with it.

Almost too much what we need.

However, I wonder that now that we have a story which actually attempts to incorporate most of the Dalek designs (other than the Skittles and the 70s ironically). I would say that, since time has changed and we are a different community in size and thought, that there could be a compromise to be found on the issue now. Look at the image to the right, for instance, which shows both the 60s Dalek up front and the iconic War Dalek in back. Seems too good to be true, doesn't it? I would argue that the most consistently used Dalek (RTD) next to the most "throw-backy" Dalek we can go for is a fine compromise.

Of coarse I understand that the few do not like repeated discussions, and thus this might be shut down without consensus without anyone actually pitching it. If so, sorry for the bother; carry on. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 22:51, September 27, 2015 (UTC)

Bump. Thoughts? T:GTI-wise it's nicely cropped, well lit, and there's even both a close-up-ish of a 60s Dalek and a full shot of an RTD-era Dalek. One issue is the closer Dalek('s eyestalk) isn't facing left, of course.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   19:42, December 20, 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. -- Saxon 17:09, October 6, 2016 (UTC)

I'd definitely support a new page image. A comic image is all nice and good, but I think it's not quite right that the current one puts such emphasis on the Golden Emperor, who is a very abnormal-looking Dalek. It's rather like if we used a page image half taken up by a Spider Dalek or a Special Weapons Dalek. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 10:24, June 25, 2019 (UTC)

Late to this discussion, but I agree. The main focus of the current image is an Emperor and Zeg, not the most standard members of Dalek history. Granted, this page does not solely focus on the drones of course, but they are the regular "people" of their species. With the current image, the first times I saw it it took me a second to realize the drones were Daleks, given they are just in the background--Editoronthewiki ☎ 19:01, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

A grouping of various Dalels

This discussion is several years old but was never resolved. I would like to suggestion another image for infobox: while the image of the two drones from Witches Familiar is great, this cropped image from the initial cover of Daleks: The Ultimate Comic Strip Collection gives us not just drones, but also Daleks of various variants. As this page is about the overall species, it makes sense to use an image that reflects the whole species. Before anyone objects to this being the "initial" cover as well, it still sees use on online retailers, so is official Editoronthewiki ☎ 20:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that I think it is not trivial that current policy allows us to use that cover as an in-universe image, as it doesn't illustrate a specific valid source… This is within the remit of that covers-as-sources thread we've been needing to have since the Warp Hustler affair. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:39, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I see I've continued my tradition of stumbling into questions of validity, then :P Editoronthewiki ☎ 21:45, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

dalek nazis

The daleks do have humanity recall Rusty or Caan. They had their doubts about Davros' idealology thsat's why they eiether killed other daleks, betrayed them, or silently had their doubts while living among them(the last one's rusty when he left the twelfth doctor to go back to the daleks). – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Annabethlover1652‎ (talk • contribs) .

Another infobox suggestion

Though the Daleks here are facing front, and not right, I believe this is closer to T:GTI then the one currently used for the infobox. Also, it features both the 60's and the modern Daleks. Thoughts? User:OncomingStorm12th

The image doesn't really focus on regular Daleks. The 60s Daleks are in the background and only one of the Daleks in the foreground is a standard model. I'd say your first suggestion was better. The Champion of Time ☎ 22:32, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

As CzechOut suggested the last time this issue came up (higher up on this page), please see the discussion at Talk:Dalek/Archive 2. Shambala108 ☎ 23:35, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

To jump into a multi-year old discussion, that agreement for the TV21 image appears to have been made in 2011, several years before the 2016 discussion here. its natural to every once in a while go back and discuss what image should be used for major characters. i would be open to rediscussing the image. especially now, over a decade since 2011 Editoronthewiki ☎ 14:59, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

I've only just seen this, but I agree - and I've made a new topic below. The notion of updating the infobox image has kept coming up for this page, and now feels a good time to do it, especially since we have started using galleries so multiple images can be showcased. — Fractal Doctor @ 17:51, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

"Simultaneously time lock the events"

In May 2015, I added a source needed template next to the assertion that the War Doctor simultaneously made the Time War inaccessible with a time lock upon using the Moment, even though The Day of the Doctor, and other sources people have since added, do not corroborate this. Maybe a non-TV source does indeed state that the time lock is related to the Moment, but it is not, as other users have cited over the past eighteen months:

• The Fires of Pompeii: All the Tenth Doctor really says is that he would go back to save his people, but he "can't".
• The Stolen Earth/Journey's End: The Tenth Doctor states that it was impossible for Dalek Caan to rescue Davros, because "the entire War is time locked." That's it.
• The End of Time: No relation is made between the Moment and the events of the Time War being time locked. The Tenth Doctor says "the whole War was time locked", which he compared to being sealed in a bubble only the Master's four-beat signal could get out of. The Chancellor also says "we're still trapped inside the time lock".
• The Day of the Doctor: Tenth Doctor: "These events should be time locked. We shouldn't even be here." Eleventh: "So something let us through." The Moment implies that she's the "something" that can let people in and out of the War, but the story does not say either way that the Moment sealed the War itself when the War Doctor stole her.

And of these sources, The Fire of Pompeii and The Stolen Earth/Journey's End do not mention the Moment period. Until an actual source saying "the Moment made the Time War inaccessible from outside with a time lock" turns up, which may exist but is not these TV stories, I'm removing that statement entirely. -- Tybort (talk page) 17:12, November 20, 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

The dalek page is not to full it never will be we need to expand even more so oncoming storm you were wrong.– The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mr bootel (talk • contribs) .

User:OncomingStorm12th is correct. The infobox says notable individuals, not every individual. We are trying to keep the vertical length of infoboxes from becoming too long. Infoboxes are not meant to be filled in with every possible answer in every possible field. And please read Tardis:No personal attacks thanks. Shambala108 ☎ 17:15, February 27, 2019 (UTC)

Last Great Time War

Given that the Daleks are relevant to almost every single story involving the Last Great Time War, is it really necessary to have as much info as there currently is in the History section on their involvements in the War? I feel that it unnecessarily bloats the page. Wouldn't it be better to simply have a "main article" template linking to Last Great Time War, and then a short summary of the Daleks' involvements in it? It's similar to why Cyberman doesn't go in depth on the events of COMIC: Supremacy of the Cybermen - there's loads of info from that one story that could be included, but because on particularly large character pages, we're trying to avoid overly long paragraphs covering single stories in the History section (as was detailed in Thread:264489), it seems best to have a single paragraph of only 4-5 lines covering the Cybermen's role in the story as a whole, so as to reduce information bloating.

I feel that a similar practice can be applied here - the Daleks had an enormous role in the Time War, I wonder if we should reduce most of the info from the Time War section of the Daleks' history and instead have a short summary paragraph instead. Otherwise, we'll have to include everything that the Daleks did in the Time War, which will result in this page practically detailing the entire War. We could keep info from just before the War broke out, such as from the Dark Eyes stories, as well as the post-War survivors, but the info on the Time War itself should be kept to a minimum. That's just my thinking. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 11:50, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that a short summary would be best. Maybe a bit more than one paragraph, but certainly shorter than what is currently on the page. LauraBatham ☎ 12:11, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Infobox gallery

Now we have updated rules regarding infoboxes, and the use of galleries (see Romana for example), I propose we update the current image (which has favoured a comic strip Dalek over one from the TV show) and create a gallery. Naturally, the idea of including every Dalek variant over the last 60 years is just silly and unmanageable, but I think we should use an infobox gallery to showcase some of the distinctive looks from over the years, especially those which have been seen on multiple occasions.

My proposals for inclusion in such a gallery would be: the original Daleks from the first serial [the debut]; the Daleks from Day of the Daleks [first televised appearance in colour in the main show]; gunmetal grey Daleks from Genesis [the 'first' Daleks as created by Davros in-universe]; Necros/Imperial Daleks [a new faction loyal to Davros and a striking new colour scheme unlike most others]; the Special Weapons Dalek or the Cult of Skaro [to showcase the idea there are occasionally variant Daleks]; a bronze Dalek from 2005 [Time War Daleks prominently seen over the last 15+ years]; and maybe the new Paradigm Daleks [intended to replace the bronze design, even though it never really happened]. That's seven images of Daleks which I feel help represent some of the variant designs and models over the years.

Any thoughts? (At the least, I'd suggest changing the current infobox image anyway. Why is it a comic strip Dalek, as opposed to a more widely-seen Dalek such as the Time War design anyway?) For anyone interested, I've also made a similar suggestion over at the Cyberman talk page too. — Fractal Doctor @ 17:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

If, for whatever reason, we decide not to use a gallery, I like the suggestion from earlier on this page about using the screencap from the Series 9 opener which depicts a 1960s design alongside the Time War design. That image does look pretty good for showing the earliest and most recent designs side by side in one frame. But I'd much rather incorporate a gallery. — Fractal Doctor @ 17:53, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

A gallery is a good idea. But as regards the choice of the old image, as this talk page's archived versions can attest, the point was in part to try and demonstrate the variability of Dalek designs, by finding an image that had both a background of typical Dalek drones, and a very atypical Dalek i.e. the Golden Emperor. Furthermore, it makes sense to want to illustrate the Dalek-centric spin-off par excellence in their infobox.

Accordingly I would submit that if we move forward with such a gallery, an image of 60s-style Daleks from the comics would be a good thing to pursue, particularly as it would allow us to display the design's colour scheme with the blue hemispheres, making its distinction relative to the Day Daleks clearer. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 18:18, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough - thanks for the reasoning, Scrooge. By extension, if we can include other media in a tabbed gallery, might it be worth considering any Big Finish variants, or not? Should we try and stick to mostly televised images, along with just a couple of other media (eg. the comic)? — Fractal Doctor @ 12:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

If there were truly recurring Big Finish designs that might be worth considering, but on the whole it's best to stick to designs that appeared in many stories each, and to visual media. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 12:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Some suggestions follow. Included: gunmetal grey Daleks from "Genesis" and from "Resurrection" - the former feels more accurate to a representation of the gunmetal grey design as seen across the 1970s, but the one from "Resurrection" (with new props and eye pupils) is just clearer. Imperials are from "Remembrance" (there's a good frame from "Revelation" with 2 white and gold Daleks facing left but the design from "Remembrance" is more distinctive and unique, and the one I think most comes to mind when people talk of the Imperials). The bronze design felt tricky to pinpoint a good frame, so I've included one of multiple Daleks from "Asylum" - you get a decent look at them as an army and you can see various details on the props. Lastly, as a wildcard, I've included a shot from the Series 9 opener to showcase various designs from across the years in one frame. The Series 9 image also shows a mixture of standard Daleks (5 bronze, 1 silver/blue) and variants (Red Supreme, Dalek Sec black, Special Weapons, and a black-domed Emperor Guard).

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

— Fractal Doctor @ 13:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

For no better reason other than the fact we've freshened up the Wiki this year, and it's about to be the anniversary, is there any movement on this? Would be nice to get an infobox gallery in place :) — Fractal Doctor @ 18:40, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd personally be in favour of keeping the current image, as opposed to a gallery, as it looks very nice, and, as Scrooge says, it demonstrates the variability of dalek design and highlights the dalek-centric spin-off. If we do end up with a gallery, though, I would agree with Scrooge in that we should have some images from the comics. Aquanafrahudy 📢 18:46, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree we should keep the image from the comic, but I think Daleks could just be better represented by a handful of images in a scroll gallery is all. — Fractal Doctor @ 18:23, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Only just saw this discussion as well, ha ha. See my above comment about File:Dalek-variants.png, I think it addresses every point Editoronthewiki ☎ 20:51, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Post-fork

Just wanted to reignite this debate, post-fork. I still think using a gallery in the infobox would be great, showcasing various main designs used over the last 60+ years of the show. × Fractal • 10:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)