User talk:OttselSpy25

	Archives: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8

Doctor Who and the Fangs of Time

Just a quick question: after looking through some old forum replies written by yourself, I'd like to ask for rationale behind getting Doctor Who and the Fangs of Time made invalid. Seeing as the Doctor Who TV series unambiguously exists in-universe, I can't seem to see much reason as to why this story is invalid.

Epsilon📯 📂

00:54, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Re: TVC

Hm. Honestly not sure. If it were licensed I'd have no objection: it is now well-understood that A) you can have very short narratives, and B) that invalid sources do deserve pages in all cases. However… in that old deletion rationale from five years ago, User:CzechOut also expressed doubts that a license was sought from the Nation Estate. Nothing has changed about the importance of our standards in that area.

You might argue that we should give TV Comic the benefit of the doubt, as established publishers of licensed DWU works, but unless you have inarguable evidence, such suggestions could only be the object of a forum thread; not something which can reverse an admin's long-standing decision overnight.

In the meantime, though, you could and should include a paragraph about the story in the relevant section of Doctor Who parodies. -Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 23:02, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh — I didn't check the dates and I'd assumed the strip must have been from one of the periods where TVC were not otherwise publishing regular Dalek comics. If there are other Dalek comics in the selfsame issue I agree it's pretty far-fetched to propose they are not licensed, and I'll indeed recreate the page.

Incidentally, though, this is some pretty appalling news about The Gay Daleks being actually a fully-licensed parody, because in that case, I really can't see a way round covering it on the Wiki as {{invalid}} much as we do Hallo My Dalek or Do You Have a Licence to Save this Planet?… Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 00:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

After having let it simmer a little while, I've recreated the page. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:36, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Doctor Who in "Colony in Space"

Back in April 2017, you added to Colony in Space (TV story) that the story had been adapted into a comic called Doctor Who in "Colony in Space". I'm tentatively interested in turning this into a non-redlink, but due to the name I'm having a hard time tracking down any information on it. Would you happen to remember where I might learn more? Hope you're well btw! – n8 (☎) 12:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Wow, I definitely never would have found that without your help! And what a neat comic it is. Thanks a bunch! – n8 (☎) 01:21, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

For(u)m Letter

Hey there, I hope your Halloween was decent. As you might know, we've not had forums for over two years at this point. A few of the regular editors have been having a discussion on this topic at Forum talk:Index and we'd like the input of other prominent editors if you have the inclination. Cheers. Najawin ☎ 08:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Seasons Greetings

Merry Christmas, User:OttselSpy25, and have a Happy New Year. Sincerely, BananaClownMan ☎ 11:02, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Forum thread proposal

I saw your forum thread proposal about Rule 4 and the DWU, etc. I wanted to let you know that my own discussion about valid sources intends to address this. I'm not asking you to remove your proposal, because I don't know how the discussion will actually play out, nor am I asking for support of mine, since you already have! I just wanted to tell you that your idea is one of a few aspects that I intend to examine in the discussion I have proposed. Chubby Potato ☎ 23:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Ninth Doctor appearances

Welcome back, and thank you for joining in on this monumental effort! Since it's been a while, I'll also say congrats on your non-wiki-related success – the other day I was startled to walk into my friends' apartment and find them halfway through one of yours. The Ninth Doctor is a wise one to start with, number-of-appearances-wise; I'm working on Donna Noble - list of appearances right now, but I'll hop over and join you on your sandbox when I'm finished. – n8 (☎) 14:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Image policy OP

Hey! Is User:OttselSpy25/Guide to Images Sandbox ready for publication, or just a work-in-progress? If the former, remember to sign it! Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:03, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Excellent — but again, could you sign it? Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:59, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Multipath

So I'm somewhat hesitant in how this is going to be implemented, and have complicated feelings about procedural issues here. But since you're writing up an OP, there's a bit of discussion at Talk:You are the Absurd Hero (short story) you might find interesting. Nothing too major, but some stuff. Najawin ☎ 03:50, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Re: Dermot and the Doctor

Go right ahead. MrThermomanPreacher ☎ 22:27, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Re: The Pilot Episode

Yes, you can merge my proposal in. --Pluto2☎ 22:34, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Speedround

Hey, your forum speedround is great. Something you may want to add to the bootstrap section is Introduction to the Night. Invalid due to the fourth wall breaking nature. Some may argue due to its meta fictional nature it’s not set in the DWU. My feeling is. If it’s got the Doctor in it it’s set in some DWU. Either way. It was since mentioned in TARDIS Cam feature as one of the Doctor’s many adventures so it may be a rule 4 by proxy thing. 81.106.187.1^{talk to me} 14:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Re: Dr. Who? Question help

That seems reasonable, Done! Bongo50 ☎ 23:12, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Invalid continuity

Not off hand, haven't gotten that far in my archeology yet. Gimme a bit, I'll go looking. Najawin ☎ 06:01, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Bit of a weird one. Nothing specific, moreso a few different T:BOUND issues that evolved over time, it looks like. I could be missing a talk page discussion, since I'm not up to the relevant time period and this is a very cursory glance, but I don't think so.

So it looks like that while invalid stories (well, non canon at the time) did have continuity sections, they were largely based around the idea that continuity = canon, and so it said something to the effect of "this story isn't canon". There are exceptions, (eg) but this is the rule of thumb, and they often either only said that, or said (eg) that in addition to also saying other things (1, 2). I'm not seeing any specific discussion to remove these, it looks like Mini-Mitch just woke up one day and decided to do so. Which isn't the most unreasonable thing in the world given how they were understood at the time, and I looked at his edits back until January of that year, he spent a fair bit of time in continuity sections, he clearly gave it a reasonable amount of thought. But I'm not seeing a specific forum discussion that preceded it, no. When DCtT was officially ruled NC its continuity section was removed, and Shambala removed the Pilot Episode's continuity section in 2015. So it looks like invalid = no continuity section is just a T:BOUND issue, not deriving from a specific thread. (Again, I'm not certain about this. There might have been a discussion made in the years prior or after this, but immediately surrounding these changes there's nothing.)

As for the idea that continuity = canon, see Forum:DWU, Canon, Continuity and References - rename them, just to pin down the thought process of people at the time.

Doctor Who universe (DWU), Canon and Continuity are three terms that are used fairly broadly throughout the wiki, and they all mean vaguely the similar things.

This seems to be why the continuity section was removed. Recall that this is around the time when T:VS first started up, so it's still really messy as to how people are thinking about things and doesn't map quite right onto how we treat concepts on the wiki these days. Najawin ☎ 07:12, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Btw, re: User:OttselSpy25/Multipath Sandbox, if you want to steal from the research I've done at Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Non-narrative fiction and Rule 1, go right ahead. In addition, the "Flip Flop" exception has never really been litigated. Scrooge put it in after Epsilon noted that he was going to bring up branching path stories based on Flip Flop as precedent in the earliest version of The List. It's in the rules, but it was put in the rules specifically because Epsilon pointed it out, and nobody really knows how far it extends because we've never discussed it. The maximalist interpretation is that any nonlinear story that has an IU reason for being nonlinear is valid, but this isn't necessarily something that's been discussed. So it's a weird state of flux. (See Talk:You are the Absurd Hero (short story) for a little bit more of this discussion, though not a ton.) Najawin ☎ 07:20, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, one of the reasons to engage on the project I'm doing is that sometimes I find little gems like Talk:Music of the Spheres (TV story)/Archive 1. Have fun with that. Najawin ☎ 06:03, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

It's up to you if you want to consider them, but there's also Mix Her Own Adventure, You are the Absurd Hero. Can't comment on Mix, but Absurd Hero does present a slightly unique problem because one of the "markers" can't be reached by progressing through the story normally. If you're flipping around the book you're just never going to run into it - it's "causally disjoint" from the rest of the story. Najawin ☎ 05:56, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Ice Cream

https://millenniumeffect.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/WOTV-TB-StreetsIceCreamRe.jpg

link to a better quality screenshot of the ice cream ad 81.108.82.15^{talk to me} 21:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Re: LEGO conjecture

Hmm, well I suppose if that's the precedent, it works. Really, I'd want LEGO Dimensions to be valid for these names, but if I'm able to use them regardless, I suppose that works. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 21:03, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Legacies

Hey, since you started the discussion, do you remember why you commented at Talk:Legacies (short story)/Archive 1? It was a few months before anyone else, so I'm curious as to your motivation and how it relates to the rest of the discussion and others' motivations. Najawin ☎ 02:49, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Ty ty. I'm not thrilled with Hellscape either, but I do think that horrific talk page discussion needs some real closure, so I'm working on that. Najawin ☎ 03:22, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion Debate Speedround

Hey just wondering if it's fair game to add any other topics to the inclusion debate. You wanted ten topics and there are ten topics, so don't want to overstep if it's not cool with your intention with the thread. Thanks!

StevieGLiverpool ☎ 19:23, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Blue Peter

I do be an expert in the field of Doctor Who on screen curios, but the Blue Peter 2005 sketch is very obscure.

I located this page that may be of use. 81.108.82.15^{talk to me} 23:50, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

https://web.archive.org/web/20060408061842/https://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/bluepeter/content/articles/makes/2005/12/05/dalekcompost_make.shtml

Re: New stub image

Hi, thanks for your designs of a "tab style" image for {{unprod}}. I think they work well and so I will implement them, creating {{unrel}} in the process. Bongo50 ☎ 18:33, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Re:Re:Speed Round

Hey thanks for getting back to me about the speedround. My focuses would probably be the VR games (The Runaway, The Edge of Time, The Edge of Reality). I'm not sure I can write as well as the others but the general points for me are how the gameplay is completely linear in those. I understand we still haven't reached the temp forum for branching gameplay (which is why I haven't included The Lonely Assassins just yet) but for here there really isn't a problem. If the reason it isn't valid is simply because the player is the character then... what's the difference between that and Don't Blink and the player being the character under Human (Don't Blink)?

On top of this I think validating the games under Infinity is pretty easy to do riding on the coattails of Legacy validity as it's WAY more straight forward than that - simply narrative cutscenes in between gameplay.

Thanks again for reaching out, would love to see these become valid! StevieGLiverpool ☎ 12:12, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I've just found the time to finish reading it and I'm very impressed by the case studies you've put forward here. Labelling some non-valid sources as infinitely more complex than others is a really good point and how compiling them all under one umbrella kinda makes no sense. I'm bias obviously so I would've loved to see how the VR games are... not diverging paths at all, because that seems silly. And also how the invalidity status of The Lonely Assassins is only there because of different dialogue options that change nothing about the plot and the secret ending not actually contradicting the original ending meaning it barely applies. But other than that, this is a really good read and I hope a lot comes out of it!

StevieGLiverpool ☎ 10:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Re: Flash Game OPs

Go ahead. MrThermomanPreacher ☎ 11:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

K9's Question Time (or the one that's gonna break the wiki)

Hey friend, any chance you could nip over to the talk page of K9's Question Time and offer any views on coverage when you get the time. I ask because I notice your want to speedround validate the story, which I support, but the coverage aspect is more complex than we might think and I think that need settling before we have the debate. Much thanks. 81.108.82.15^{talk to me} 00:15, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Speedround 2

While I'm not thrilled with the format generally, I think one thing that would be good for such a style of thread would be Strax Saves the Day (webcast) - as it's probably as uncontroversial as we're going to get. Najawin ☎ 16:17, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Deja Who

Hey loving your what if op. You may wanna note that deja who is titled such as a play on de ja vu as in K9 is doing all these stories you know himself. Further proving it's a what if. 81.108.82.15^{talk to me} 20:16, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Disney Time timeline placement

Why, hello there.

I saw your comment about how the Disney Time placement on the Fourth Doctor timeline "makes no sense", and I wanted to open a dialogue to discuss why it's there at the moment, and maybe hash things out to see if it can be placed at a location more beneficial to the community.

From what I can tell, it's not placed in broadcast order due to how Revenge of the Cybermen leads into Terror of the Zygons; sure, there are stories between them, but they all involve the Doctor, Sarah and Harry, and most are about them traveling to Scotland, with no time for the Doctor to take the trip to the theatre from Mars without them presented. Not to mention him receiving another summons at the end of Disney Time, which appears to be for a different matter from his "in trouble again" comment.

Really, the summons at the end is currently the big linchpin for it's current location, which is just before Hello Goodbye, a Short Trips story that opens with the Doctor being summoned to UNIT by the Brigadier, at least according to the second hand recaps I have read, which could be wrong. In any event, due to the connected nature of the Fourth Doctor's early serials, the best the Disney Time programme can come is after The Android Invasion, the end of three interconnected arcs that followed one after the other.

I look forward to hearing what you think of the matter, and seeing where you believe the best place to sort the story chronologically would be.

Sincerely, BananaClownMan ☎ 22:52, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

You reasoning leans a bit too into the head-canon side, what with the two episodes seemingly showing the TARDIS crew going straight to Scotland, especially with the amount of expanded universe stories that depict the journey as being one that didn't have an unprompted break. As for the costume, true they can be a good indication, but it's in the same camp as those Eleventh Doctor stories that have him in his tweed jacket despite being explicitly set after The Bells of Saint John; you just got to shrug your shoulders and go, "I guess he put on an old coat. (Must be a laundry day.)" BananaClownMan ☎ 23:32, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

It seems I owe you an apology for making my edit on Disney Time come across as trying to shoehorn in a timeline agenda. In truth, I was trying to sound as neutral as possible. I'll give it a second try, and make more of an attempt to keep things from a neutral viewpoint. Sincerely, BananaClownMan ☎ 08:39, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Disney Time

Hey there! Since you were the one who uploaded the Disney Time screenshot that you used in the inclusion speed round thread, I was wondering if you'd happen to know where I can actually see the entire special for myself? I'm thinking of making pages relating to the Disney clips therein, but I need to know what specific clips are shown. WaltK ☎ 22:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Great! My Discord handle is REDACTED. WaltK ☎ 12:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Yo! Scrooge has told me that you're having trouble getting a hold of me on Discord. Let's try the reverse; you give me your handle and I'll reach out to you. If that doesn't work… email, maybe? WaltK ☎ 15:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Understanable. Anyway, Scrooge gave me your details in private. Hopefully you should have a friend request waiting. WaltK ☎ 16:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Re: Attack of the Graske

Go ahead. MrThermomanPreacher ☎ 17:59, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Let's Play

FYI, the "every let's play must be identical to every other let's play" might not be the explicit policy, since the adventure games are valid, but Forum:City of the Daleks, Forum:We need a policy on videogames and Thread:117868 at User:SOTO/Forum Archive/Inclusion debates 1 do tend to suggest this reading. I don't think any of these explicitly say "gameplay is narrative" from an admin ruling (a later thread might do so, will need to check), but people in the thread repeatedly do, and it seems to be some of the reasoning that leads to the policies moving the way they do. I'll need to do a deeper dive at some point. Najawin ☎ 07:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm. At Thread:176459 has Czech say:

As has been discussed numerous times this decade, any game which has multiple outcomes depending on how the player chooses to play isn't an actual narrative. It's a "choose your own adventure", which aren't allowed. Full stop. The presence or absence of cut scenes is irrelevant. [Emphasis mine]

But I think Dimensions only has nonlinear gameplay, not different endings, and he said that the adventure games had a right way to play. So that seems to be a ruling there, but it's kinda weird. Which Shambala affirms in Thread:181884, which you started to reconsider the issue.

"The idea that cutscenes and gameplay are separate is a fundamental point of video games."

Not on this wiki. That was established at Thread:176459.

She cites the old rulings against CYA books and stage plays as being precedent. The discussion ends without resolution though. But it seems that 176459 + CYA + Stage Plays is the reasoning for the explicit "Let's Play" reading of the policy, which has historical roots in the threads mentioned earlier.

In User:SOTO/Forum Archive/Inclusion debates 2, Thread:236104 Czech says the following about Infinity:

I agree that we should allow the narratives, as long as they remain non-branching, static narratives that are the same for every player, every time they play the game, regardless of how they play the game. [Emphasis again mine]

Thread ultimately rules against Infinity's validity due to Shambala worrying that the stories could change at later time. (She cites Forum:Prefix simplification but I think she meant Forum:Why do prefixes link as they do?).

That's a really rough search. But, yeah, seems to be 176459 + CYA + Stage Plays. Najawin ☎ 08:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The Lonely Assassins

Hey. Sorry I'm so late getting back to you regarding the message you left on my talk page - I've not been on in a while. Yep, I'm happy if you merge my T:TF submission about The Lonely Assassins with the one on branching narratives. I'll support once it goes live. Give me a shout if you need any help with it. 66 Seconds ☎ 14:47, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Multipath!

Hi again! Given the forums having a boost and the chance of the Multipath debate being opened, I just wanted to drop a message for you to let me know when it goes live! Would love to show some support for it. Thanks! StevieGLiverpool ☎ 00:32, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

New Wiki logo

Just dropping in to say thanks for the logo designs and contributions. I was hoping your concept would come out on top. And now it is on top - of the whole Wiki. Kudos to the artist/designer too. I think it looks great. Fresh. — Fractal Doctor @ 18:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Re: Spin-off circles

I like it. Added. Bongo50 ☎ 12:32, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Question about a statement you made

Hey, forgive me if I'm misquoting you, but I think you said that in the past admins had a sort of semiofficial approach to discourage users from editing invalid articles at one point? Do you happen to know off hand if there's any examples of that floating around the wiki or if it was all in the chat? I've found a few comments that could be construed that way, but they were hyperspecific sorts of things in the context of the 2016/2017 inclusion debates and admins seeming to want to move on. You seemed to suggest it was happening before that, so I'm curious if you could point me in the right direction! (My suspicion is that it was sadly all in chat though and this is a long shot.) Cheers. Najawin ☎ 05:07, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Great success ;)

Only just saw the closing thoughts for the thread regarding validity of games and other such multipath media. Huge congrats on doing what I've wanted to happen for YEARS. No doubt such a thread in more inferior hands (such as my own) would not have provided the win here we wanted. So just dropping a big congrats on doing it! I'm looking forward to doing a LOT of editing these next few days, weeks, or however long it takes. StevieGLiverpool ☎ 19:06, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Re: New logo idea

That's a great idea! I think swapping the logo out after each episode would work very well. I've gone ahead and set your suggestion as the current logo. Bongo50 ☎ 00:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Re: Toymaker logo

I like it. It should be live now. Bongo50 ☎ 21:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Fourteenth Doctor casting sectioon

Hello. I wanted to offer my apologies for removing your edit to the Casting section on the Fourteenth Doctor's Behind the scenes section. When I do my big retrospective edits, sometimes information gets lost, either due to Gmail not updating me on the newest edits while I'm reconstructing the page, or because I cut something to move it, get distracted by something and forget to paste it when I return to editing. Again, I must apologies for any trouble I have caused, but I must also thank you for taking the time to readd the cut infomation instead of just undoing the whole edit.

Sincerely, BananaClownMan ☎ 20:47, 21 January 2024 (UTC)