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== Time Lords a race? ==
{{ArchCat}}


Are the Time Lords a race, cause some sources e.g. [[REF]]: [[Doctor Who: The Encyclopedia]] says that they are but various sources mentioning before the [[Last Great Time War|Time War]] e.g. [[DW]]: ''[[The Invasion of Time]]'' seem to suggest that they are more of a society? Which of it is it to be? Or is it not certain?
== How to refer to each incarnation of the Master ==


Also is under the Infobox Race category is a Female [[Time Lord]] called a [[Time Lady]] because humans are sometimes called Man and a male human is also called a man but women is not a species name so is [[Time Lady]]?--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]] 19:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I think some of us were hoping it'd be simpler, but the fact that [[Talk:The Master (The TV Movie)]] discussion and [[Talk:The Master (The Keeper of Traken)]] are going on at the same time with seemingly different ideas made me think we should just discuss this. '''This is not necessarily meant to be a discussion to determine a name or page title for each Master; those should still happen on their talk page. This is just a discussion on having consistency between them.'''


::Sources seem to indicate that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords, but rather only a relatively small percentage of Gallifreyans are actually Time Lords. This would seem to still be canon in the new series, as the Doctor said in The Doctor's Daughter that Time Lords are "so much more than that... They're a shared code, a shared suffering." (Slight paraphrase.)--[[User:TheOmnius|TheOmnius]] 05:02, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
This long comment started as something I was going to write for [[Talk:The Master (The TV Movie)]], with me saying I think it should either be both [[Tremas Master]] and [[Bruce Master]], or both [[The Master (The TV Movie)]] and [[The Master (The Keeper of Traken)]], for consistency. …But then in the latter case, arguably some of the others should also use disambiguation terms. I personally think that for the "main" Masters (i.e. those not ambiguous or from another reality) should either all use descriptions for page titles, with the ''possible'' exception of [[The Master (Terror of the Autons)]] (the reason for which is currently discussed on [[Talk:The Master (Terror of the Autons)|his talk page]] and should remain there), or all use disambiguation terms, with the exceptions of [[Decayed Master]], [[War Master]], [[Missy]] and [[the Lumiat]]. Having any other sort of mixed arrangement would just be confusing. ''Please note'' I am not saying the wiki ''must'' subscribe to the above dichotomy, just that I think it needs to be discussed. But there's another problem:


==Other things==
Initially I too subscribed to the story dab pattern, for neutrality. But the problem is, the incarnations still need a name to be referred to with in articles to specify them. We can't say "The Doctor met [[the Master (Dominion)]]." in an article. It'd have to be something like "The Doctor met the [[Reborn Master]]." This means even if they're not page titles, descriptive names are necessary anyway. There are a few proposed names that work well enough with their story titles, like "Traken Master" (from ''[[The Keeper of Traken (TV story)|The Keeper of Traken]]'') or "Spy Master" (from ''[[Spyfall (TV story)|Spyfall]]''). But for most of them, a different name is needed to maintain an [[Tardis:In-universe perspective|in-universe perspective]], and because the text of the wiki will be using these names to identify the incarnations, it makes sense to me to have them be the page names anyhow, regardless of what they actually are. I am not 100% against using names on pages and disambiguation terms for (most) titles, which is essentially the status quo, but I think the page title should reflect how the character is almost always referred to on the wiki…
This page needs to be edited to fit more into the Whoniverse POV discussed at the [[Tardis:Panopticon |Panopticon]], and also to include links to other pages. (Would do it myself but busy with my own edits.)--[[User:Freethinker1of1|Freethinker1of1]] 11:25, 29 Mar 2005 (EST)


Last note, this is a bit pedantic, but I think it makes a difference: I think descriptive names which are derived from a name themselves should use quotes— basically, "Tremas" Master instead of Tremas Master, "Bruce" Master instead of Bruce Master, and "Saxon" Master instead of Saxon Master. This not only reads better to me, for example alleviating concerns that "Bruce Master" sounds like, and probably is, some guy's name, but also better conveys the reasons those names are being used. Currently quotes are variably used for all descriptive names (particularly with coverage of ''[[Masterful (audio story)|Masterful]]'' you might see something like "the 'Young' Master"), but I think that's too difficult to read and that is the best way to use them. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
: As previously mentioned at [[Talk:Fugitive Doctor]], on no account should we use quotes for the actual page names (e.g. it is and will remain [[Decayed Master]], not [["Decayed" Master]]). This interferes with searchability and is ungainly besides. Big Finish's own box set titles don't say [[The War Master (series)|''The "War" Master'']], either; nor do the ''Masterful'' credits from which we derive the proposed [[Saxon Master]], [[Reborn Master]] or [[Tremas Master]] renames use such quotation marks.


:: Removed "Unfortunately, the misconceived" We cant start to make judgements on the quality of the stories as everyone here is going to have different opinions on the issues and we should strive for some objectivity--[[User:Amxitsa|Amxitsa]] 13:09, 29 Mar 2005 (EST)
: This point aside, my intuition thus far is that we use quotation marks when pipe-linking dabbed [[The Master (Something)]] pages for clarity — precisely to emphasise that something is a nickname which isn't really that page's proper title. For example, [[the Master (Terror of the Autons)|the "UNIT era" Master]]. This is informal practice and that discussion would be in a position to reform it, though, myself, I think it's intuitive enough. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 11:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
::Scrooge, you're drawing an equivalence between quite unlike things. Of course we don't use [["Fugitive" Doctor]] or [["Decayed" Master]], since those names are straightforwardly descriptive of each character in their entirety. But there ''is'' a straightforward difference between those names and names which are based on identities used only temporarily by the characters. "Missy" is not an alias in the same way that "Harold Saxon" is.


::I very much like Chubby's suggestion. This is what it would take for me to get on board with some otherwise-repulsive suggestions: it makes "Bruce Master" sound less like the name of my next-door neighbor, and it suitably contextualizes the conjectural leap we're making in incarnation naming. In particular, I disagree with the idea that this would interfere with searchability in any way. Quote marks work fine in the search bar, and now that Fandom has made search work better with redirects, typing the same name without quotes will return the same result in a transparent fashion. Neither search nor precedent is an argument against this proposal. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 14:47, 13 January 2023 (UTC)


:::Agreed. Was going to mention that in my earlier comment, but forgot. --[[User:Freethinker1of1|Freethinker1of1]] 13:37, 29 Mar 2005 (EST)
::: I'm not a fan of the quotation marks. Whilst I can understand why people might want to use them for Tremas, Saxon and Bruce, I'm 100% against using them for the Reborn Master; "reborn" is an adjective, just like "decayed", so I don't see why it would be treated any differently. [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
::::No one has suggested using them for the Reborn Master. I would also be opposed to such a thing. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 21:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


I would choose [[Bruce Master]] over [["Bruce" Master]], [[Saxon Master]] over [["Saxon" Master]], [[Tremas Master]] over [["Tremas" Master]], [[Keller Master]] over [["Keller" Master]], etc. Aesthetics aside, the key problem here, which I'm surprised people are overlooking, is that placing quotation marks around part of a name ''does not actually communicate "this name is unofficial"'' in any clear or intuitive way. They could just as easily be read as some sort of quotation from some unspecified in-universe or out-of-universe source, or as in-universe nicknames (since quotation marks commonly signify a nickname when used for some but not all component words in a name; for example Punished "Venom" Snake from Metal Gear). With or without them, the wiki would still be making the same arbitrary call to employ the alias / host's name ''as an adjective'' when it was never used as such officially. That's OK by me - there's some objective, factual basis to describing Roberts's character "the Bruce Master", Simm's "the Saxon Master", etc - but if we're doing it, we should commit to doing it properly, in a way that gives the reader an uncluttered, consistent experience. Quotation marks are just confusing and distracting in this context. If a name is deemed so dodgy that it requires quotation marks, then we should just continue to disambiguate by debut appearance. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


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My vote would go to: ''The "Bruce" Master'', ''The "Tremas" Master'' and ''The "Saxon" Master'' - with quotation marks as shown. To me, this indicates they are ''The Master'' but that there are sub-names to differentiate and distinguish them. Conversely, I wouldn't use quotation marks for ''The War Master'', as there are countless examples of that name being used widely across various releases. [[User:FractalDoctor|FractalDoctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)


Not that I'm trying to confuse matters but is Legacy of the Daleks really the Masters last story. I havent actually read it but I thought that it was set just before Deadly Assassin from the Masters perspective. Should the last story be the final story from the Masters own perspective or the last one from the Doctors? --[[User:Amxitsa|Amxitsa]] 15:08, 6 Apr 2005 (EDT)
: I can’t believe I forgot to comment on this earlier. I am in support of [[“Bruce” Master]] and its ilk (with obvious exceptions for the War Master and the Decayed Master). While I personally find the premise of quotation marks in the link name to be aesthetically unappealing, it goes a long way in assuaging the concerns of those more skeptical about these sort of names. Likewise, it ''is'' how they’ve historically been used in-line. [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)


:Last from the Doctor's, I'd say; after all, virtually all the characters will be meeting the Doctor in a different order.[[User:Ben Standeven|Ben Standeven]] 04:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:: I would very much like to throw my two cents into this conversation. I think that whenever possible, we should note what number regeneration each Master is, much like the Doctor or the General. We obviously don't know for all of them, but we do know the numbers for a few. The [[Decayed Master]] is the [[Thirteenth Master]], the [[Tremas Master]] is the [[Fourteenth Master]], the [[The Master (First Frontier)|First Frontier Master]] is the [[Fifteenth Master]], the [[The Master (The TV Movie)|Bruce Master]] is the [[Sixteenth Master]], the [[The Master (The Fallen)|Preacher Master]] is the [[Seventeenth Master]], and the [[Reborn Master]] is the [[Eighteenth Master]]. If we wanted to guess (even if we're not absolutely certain) we can even assume that the [[War Master]] is the [[Nineteenth Master]] and the [[Saxon Master]] is the [[Twentieth Master]]. I just think it makes things more orderly on here, which is something we could definitely use given the convoluted history of this character. -- [[User:MattTheNerd42|MattTheNerd42]] [[User talk:MattTheNerd42|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


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:::What's your source for the numbering? [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]] 17:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Should we put sub-titles like: The early years for Delgado, the end of a lifetime? for peter pratt/geoffrey beevers apperaces, a new body? for anthony ainley and so on so we can categorize it well?--[[User:GingerM|GingerM]] 16:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::Whether stolen bodies even ''count'' is significantly controversial, but the problem is that if they do, then (depending on accounts) no numbering can be relied upon. In ''[[Mastermind (audio story)|Mastermind]]'' and ''[[Short Trips: The Centenarian]]'' a post-TVM Beevers Master steals a number of bodies for varying periods of time, in just the same way he stole Roberts's. If we counted them all, then Macqueen might be, like, the Thirty-First.


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::::Moreover, BF only inconsistently acknowledge the events of ''[[First Frontier (novel)|First Frontier]]''; the ''[[Dust Breeding (audio story)|Dust Breeding]]'' account bypasses it entirely, claiming that Ainley was reverted directly to Beevers. (This implies that Tipple in the TVM was a stolen body he acquired at some point — but we cannot assume that there was just ''one'' in that gap, so it doesn't necessarily "make up" the numbers with a different-but-equivalent "Fifteenth Master"!) Then, of course, there's the accounts where it's Ainley who's placed on trial, like ''[[The Eight Doctors (novel)|The Eight Doctors]]'', which would make your count come up one short, making Roberts the Fifteenth…
On the table, what media does actors include?--[[User:GingerM|GingerM]] 16:10, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


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::::Also, some accounts claim that the Decayed Master was just a decayed version of Delgado, making ''Delgado'' the Thirteenth Master as well. Covering them on the same page is obviously not desirable, but we can't just act as though Beevers was the only possible Thirteenth candidate. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


I've revised the page to address recent questions. As for the one on media, since Sir Derek Jacobi is the only actor to not portray the Doctor on television, I saw no reason to put him in a separate category. Anyone clicking on the individual links to the respective actor entries (once they're written, of course) can find out in which capacitiy or form the role was played. The page on the actual character should concentrate more on the Master as he would be described in an information extract accessed by someone living in the ''Doctor Who'' universe. Outside the table, the behind-the-scenes stuff should be reserved for the pages on the actors and the individual stories.
:::::And the Preacher Master can't be the Seventeenth Master, because [[The Master (The Curse of Fatal Death)]] is. Well, he could be an alternate incarnation, but it's clearly not so straightforward as it seems. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]] 18:18, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
--[[User:Freethinker1of1|Freethinker1of1]] 20:27, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


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I don't think it's really possible to assign numbers. The waters are too murky. At this point, even if Sacha Dhawan showed up again on screen and proclaimed "I am the Xth Master" it would ''still ''be arguable. Also, even if we did have one or two numbers, nobody ever refers to them as such - nobody says "I loved the Twelfth Master" in the same way we might say "I loved the Twelfth Doctor" for example — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 21:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


As the page implies, is the [[Gordon Tipple]] portrayal of the Master in the [[Doctor Who: The TV Movie|TV Movie]] meant to be The Master in [[Tremas]]'s body or is it meant to be a new body, through another takeover / regeneration?--[[User:GingerM|GingerM]] 14:07, 1 Jul 2005 (UTC)
: Not sure I completely agree there. If a new Master was introduced as "[Numeral] Master", we don't have the right to reject that name even if it doesn't sit well with other sources that depict more or less incarnations of the Master up until that point.
: We shouldn't make up incarnation numbers, but if one ever officially exists, we should use it. (Maybe as "according to one account".)
: We don't elect to not use "[[Fourteenth Doctor]]" even though he is technically the sixteenth (inc. War Doctor and the VanityTen) or perhaps the the thirty-third (inc. Timeless Children, Fugitive Doctor, "Morbius" Doctors). {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 21:16, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


:''[[The Eight Doctors]]'' might explain this. I don't know the answer myself. You could try to find out on Whoniverse.org--[[User:***Stardizzy***|***Stardizzy***]] 23:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
::Fair points. I did say it would be debatable though, not that we should dismiss it immediately out of hand. In such an instance, I think "according to one account" would work. In any case, I doubt this would ever happen, unless it's done jokingly (similar to Smith's Doctor telling Clyde he could regenerate 507 times). — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 21:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


According to the new adventures, the Gordon Tipple Master is not the Ainley Master. He is described as looking somewhat like Basil Rathbone. Luckily Gordon Tipple does have a similarity to Rathbone. The Gordon Tipple Master first appears in [[First Frontier]]. [[User:The Valeyard|The Valeyard]] 14:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
== Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images ==


==Would like to split this article up==
Although tabs haven't yet been implemented here yet, following the discussion at [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Replacing docpic]], I have a potential way to let us have the tabs listed chronologically but with the most recent incarnation selected by default which I have presented at [[Talk:The Doctor#Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images]]. It could easily be applied here as well. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:06, 3 February 2023 (UTC)


===Initital thoughts===
== Tabbed gallery ==
Suggested sections:
I note this page still needs a tabbed gallery. The Doctor page works well starting from the first known incarnation, so maybe the Master should follow suit (except with "A", "B", "C", etc.) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
: Indeed. Done, though as stated in my thread closure, the option of switching out this or that image is of course available. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 13:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


*General overview
:: Thanks, [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]. Is the absence of a certain [[The Master (The Destination Wars)|Destination Wars Master]] on purpose? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:00, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


*One each for the main incarnations:
: As I just finished telling [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon]], it's "on purpose" in the sense that I was sticking with his absence from {{tlx|masterpic}} and with the basic precedent of not including the "according to one account" pre-Delgado incarnations established by the prior decision against including Brayshaw on the template. Also, aside from his controversial existence, it stands to reason that we don't want a somewhat "random" incarnation like Dreyfus to be the perennial default thumbnail instead of Delgado. All of this is in line with Jo Martin & friends not being represented on [[The Doctor]]. But Jack argues that we ''do'' include the also-controversial John Hurt at The Doctor, so perhaps we could consider the place of the pre-Delgado Masters on this one. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
**[[Roger Delgado]] Master
**The decayed Master
**[[Anthony Ainley]] Master
**Decayed Master two (from the Big Finish audios)
**[[Eric Roberts]] Master
**The ''[[Doctor Who Magazine]]'' comics Master who fought the [[Eighth Doctor]] (again)
**The Shalka Master


(it gets pretty complicated, for instance the [[New Adventures]] introduced one incarnation and though he only appeared in two books, ithink he regenerated at least once.)
This might be too outlandish an idea but just a thought I had, that could solve that (here and on other pages) - would it be possible to have a secondary tabbed gallery maybe further down the page, containing miscellaneous/somewhat ambiguous incarnations. I'm guessing it would have some pushback, and could be viewed as confusing, but it's just a suggestion.  


*Alt. universe Masters
I do think this page should begin with Delgado because of the reasons you stated. Worth noting that we do include Hurt in the tabbed Doctor gallery, and we include the Lumiat in this one (as well as others). The only difference with Dreyfus is that he's pre-Delgado and so instead of being mid-gallery, he'd be eternally at the beginning/the default starting image, and I completely understand why a lot of people wouldn't want this. (I wouldn't want this either, but is there an alternative, other than just leaving him out?) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
*Other
:: Well, as I said, the alternative would be to start with [[William Hughes]], thus sandwiching him away. But I would find it hard to justify including these two and not other alleged pre-Delgado Masters e.g. the War Chief, and that might get very controversial very quickly (I would be willing to bite the bullet of including Peter Butterworth, but I don't think many people would! This is just what we have the "no controversial information in infoboxes" rule of thumb for.)


===Second thoughts===
:: As regards a more thorough gallery of incarnations, this sounds like a very good use of the proposed usage of galleries on in-universe page, which is currently against policy but ''is'' one of the proposals currently rising through the Temp Forums propositions table. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


Keep most of the above in own sections, give the following their own articles:
::: I don't think the likes of the Monk and the War Chief are comparable to the likes of Parker and Dreyfus. With the Monk and the War Chief, there are conflicting accounts on whether or not they are the Master. There's no such confusion with Parker and Dreyfus. [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:15, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


*Delgado Master
Fair enough, [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge''']].
*Anthony Ainley/[[Tremas]] Master
*Eric Roberts Master
*Shalka Master (not major in terms of the universe, it just would help as far as differiating this version from the "default" main universe version)


--[[User:***Stardizzy***|***Stardizzy***]] 16:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm probably opening a huge can of worms (and maybe not in the best suited place) by asking about the War Chief and what the evidence is for and against him being an incarnation of the Master, but I think it's worth noting that Dreyfus' incarnation was invented as, and specifically designed to be an earlier incarnation of the Master, and I think there's a debate about that warranting inclusion. I've just had a look at your back-and-forth with [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]], and both of you raise good points. I think it's a debate to be had though at some stage, and good note about the upcoming galleries discussion. That could solve some issues down the line.


:I agree, but how should we structure the titles to keep them in-universe? "Original Master", "Second Master", etc? But then again, the Anthony Ainley Master wasn't the Master's true second incarnation... {{:User:Ghelæ/sig}} 16:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
(I wrote this before seeing Jack's response just now. I'm sitting on the fence and viewing both sides, but ultimately I'm siding with Jack's reasoning here, if I'm honest.) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


::how about, for the Delgado Master, "The Master (UNIT years)". Ainley "The Master (Tremas)". Eric Roberts "The Master (morphant)". morphant means the snake thing the Master had turned into that possess people. --[[User:***Stardizzy***|***Stardizzy***]] 21:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
:::: @Jack, they're not exactly the same situation, sure, but there are certainly accounts by which lights no such persons as Parker or Dreyfus's Masters could have existed (''[[The Dark Path (novel)|The Dark Path]]'' positing that Koschei didn't call himself "the Master" yet by the time he left Gallifrey is the obvious one). [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:::Perhaps something to imply the species? You know, how he was originally just a [[Time Lord]], then a Time Lord possessing a [[Trakenite]], then a Morphant possessing a [[Human]]. [[User:Azes13|Azes13]] 02:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Tangential question: is Parker meant to be the same incarnation as the 'child' we saw in [[The Sound of Drums (TV story)|The Sound of Drums]] flashback, or not? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


::::I believe a number of EU stories have gone with the idea that the morphant is actually yet another globby form of Skarosian life into which the Master transferred his consciousness... not sure how this chimes with what's actually shown on-screen in the movie but it may have implications for the revision you suggest. (Hmm, the wiggly line button doesn't work on this computer. Sorry. - Gai-jin)
:: On the whole I'm less concerned about specific cases than about what a giant can of worms pre-Delgado Masters are, such that starting the infobox at Delgado just seems like the cutoff point that will cause the fewest headaches. It's a line in the sand, not a natural boundary, but it's a common-sense sort of line in the sand that readers will easily grok as saying "we're starting with Delgado for IRL reasons/sanity" rather than a judgment-call statement of "such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters count more than such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters". A full gallery elsewhere on the page, if the Temp Forums pass that reform, would then sound like quite an attractive proposal to supplement it.


== The Master is back! ==
:: (Re: Parker/Hughes… that's another controversial one. Per recent BTS quotes, it seems that yes, but that's ambiguous in the stories themselves, particularly as they have some conspicuous physical differences e.g. eye colour. So that's another area of possible contention.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


Excellent, this is the first time I've seen him...looks like the next two episodes are going to be pretty good! Anyway, onto the article...does anyone have a picture of Proffesor Yana or The 'John Simm' Master? It would be useful... [[User:82.46.212.142|82.46.212.142]] 20:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not gunna die on this hill, and I'd be happy to wait until the Temp Forum discussion happens regarding a potential alternative before continuing this debate.  
*Done. [[User:Joker1138|<span style="color:darkblue;">'''Joker1138'''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Joker1138|<span style="color:black;">The Hub</span>]])</sup> [[Image:Daleknew.jpg|25px]]


Alright, thank you! [[User:82.46.212.142|82.46.212.142]] 20:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
I also note here that there may even be [[The Master's early life#The Dreyfus Master|a hint of Big Finish muddying the waters]] themselves anyway, or subtly trying to retcon a few things in light of IRL events surrounding Dreyfus and his positioning anyway? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


== Different Master pages ==
If the preacher (who appears in half as many stories as Dreyfus) and the Asian child (who is apparently not even intended to be a mainline Master) are included, there's no justification for excluding Dreyfus. Including pre-Delgado incarnations is no more "opening a can of worms" than including post-Delgado ones. I think we should either stick with major TV incarnations (as on [[The Doctor]]) or include the lot, not this weird middle ground. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:32, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


Since there is more than one Master incarnation shouldn't we have different pages for the Master's incarnations.--[[User:The 10th Doctor|The 10th Doctor]] 00:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
:It has been nearly half a year with no further discussion. Again, given the inclusion of the Preacher and the Child, there is no excuse for excluding the Inventor, an actual mainline Master who is named "The Master", appears as the main Master in multiple stories, and is explicitly positioned prior to Delgado. Can we please get this resolved now? [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


i thought that [[User:Captain-One]]
:: No we cannot. To begin with, it is non-trivial that his "being named 'the Master' and appears as the main Master in multiple stories" is operative with regards to why he should be included, but not Hughes/Parker or Butterworth or Brayshaw or Magnus.


I think the general consensus is that the Master's individual pages would be too short. For example, the Derek Jacobi Incarnation's section is individually only 3-4 paragraphs long, ''including'' speculation, and Eric Roberts' section is only ''2''!. --[[Special:Contributions/86.166.160.20|86.166.160.20]] 19:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
:: But more importantly, I still think there is no reason to include Dreyfus here if we do not include Jo Martin at [[The Doctor]] (she explicitly the Doctor by name, explicitly before the currently-earliest incarnation in the gallery, and [[Origins (comic story)|has begun appearing as the lead in her own stories]]). And I don't believe we should do ''either'' of those things. There is a long-standing policy of keeping controversial in-universe information out of infoboxes (hence "[[The Doctor's species]]" being used in all Doctors' species field). Although it can be bent on a case-by-case basis, I think setting things such that incarnations whose very ''existence'' is highly dependent on contradictory accounts, like any of the pre-Delgado Masters or the various pre-Hartnell Doctors, would appear as the ''page's default thumbnail'' in categories and Google searches, would be in stark violation of the spirit of that policy. How recurring the Inventor or Fugitive might become doesn't enter into it. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 11:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


On a similar note, how come this article is mostly compiled of information on John Simm's version of the Master? There's barely any information filled out about Delgado or Ainley's characters, even though, as a general overview of the person, their takes have a lot of information to offer. Most of the references in this article come from the new series. I see that their information was put into separate articles, but was perhaps too much taken away from this original article?--[[User:Sudipal|Sudipal]] 04:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
:::I personally think that the CoFD Master should get a look in, although the question of exactly where to place him is something of a conundrum. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|📢]] 11:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


==quicky==
::::On the other hand, of course, we ''could'' place him between Bruce and Preacher. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]]  16:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


How is Koschei pronounced [[User:Captain-One]]
== Relationship between Master and Meddling Monk  ==
:Have a look at [[wikipedia:Koschei|Koschei (wikipedia page)]] which gives various spellings (which should give a guide to pronunciation. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


== "Under the Stairs" Short Story ==
I see this site now uses FASA narrative as valid. And it contains something that may settle the controversial issue once and for all.
Peter Butterworth's character in The Time Meddler is said to be the Master, but then we also have a "Meddling Monk" in Follow That TARDIS!, plus Rufus Hound in Big Finish Audios. So, how can Butterworth be the Master, AND Hound be a Time Lord unambiguously separate from the Master called "the Meddling Monk"?


Where was this story printed? I can't find a reference to it anywhere except here and Wikipedia, and neither sites provide a source or anything. --[[Special:Contributions/86.166.160.20|86.166.160.20]] 19:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The FASA narrative explictly states that in 1066(The Time Meddler) the Master '''disguised himself as the Meddling Monk'''. And that this wasn't one of his(the Master's) best schemes.
So, in the same way David Morrissey in The Next Doctor wasn't actually The Doctor, Peter Butterworth in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan WAS NOT ACTUALLY THE MEDDLING MONK. He was the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk.


:http://cmm-chrismckeon.blogspot.com/ --[[User:Stardizzy2|Stardizzy2]] 19:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
So, while there may be a Mortimus/Meddling Monk separate to the Master, the guy in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan was NOT the Meddling Monk. It was the Master DISGUISED AS the Meddling Monk. {{unsigned-anon|197.87.143.20}}
: Oh good, you again.


Ah, that explains why it's been removed. Thank you!--[[Special:Contributions/86.138.211.192|86.138.211.192]] 19:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
: Well, ''according to one account'', yes. (Though it's reading the text against itself to imagine that in FASA's account there is such a thing as a real Monk who simply is not the one who actually appears in ''The Time Meddler''.) But ''according to other accounts'' it was in fact a distinct guy in ''Time Meddler''. There are ''conflicting accounts'', and this is not a problem, this is not something that needs to be "settled", it's just a fact. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 09:33, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


Yes it does although this article seems to be plagued by fan fiction --[[User:Dark Lord Xander|Dark Lord Xander]] 06:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
== "Quote marks" ==


==created new article called [[The Master (Tremas)]]==
We finally ditched the quote marks from [[The Doctor|"The Doctor"]], post-fork, should we do the same here? × [[User:Fractal|Fractal]] [[User talk:Fractal|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 21:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
I finally got around to doing it. I cut-and-pasted part of the main article dealing with the [[Season 18]]-[[Season 26]] vesion of the Master into its own article and revised it to make it much better (edited, corrected mis-spellings, etc.). it still doesn't have any information on ''[[Planet of Fire]]'', though. --[[User:Stardizzy2|Stardizzy2]] 19:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
: Yes. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 
==please note the articles on specific incarnations==
*[[The Master (UNIT years)]], a.k.a. the original (this article needs filling out, by the way)
*[[The Master (Tersurus)]], a.k.a. the crispy crunch Master
*[[The Master (Tremas)]], a.k.a. the '80's Master
*[[Yana]]
*[[The Master (Harold Saxon)]] (self-explanatory, I hope)
 
you do not need to recapitulate the histories of these incarnations in the main article. ''hint hint.'' --[[User:Stardizzy2|Stardizzy2]] 18:56, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 
== The Master (Bruce) ==
 
Should we have an article for the Eric Roberts Master?
 
I've done a bit for it, but it needs to be reviewed by someone with more knowledge of ''[[The Eight Doctors]]'' because I haven't read it and I'm not sure about the whole deathworm thing.
 
 
----
{{Infobox Individual
|individual name= The Master
|alias=[[Aliases of the Master|Full list of Aliases]]
|image=
|race= [[Time Lord]]/[[Deathworm]]/[[Human]]
|home planet= [[Gallifrey]]
|home era= [[Rassilon Era]]
|appearances=<ul><li>[[DW]]: ''[[Doctor Who (1996)|Doctor Who: The Movie]]''</li></ul>
|actor= [[Eric Roberts]]
}}
 
'''[[The Master]]''' was executed on Skaro but survived thanks to a [[deathworm]]. While his ashes were being returned to Gallifrey on [[the Doctor's TARDIS]], the Master escaped in deathworm form and caused the TARDIS to crash-land in [[San Francisco]] in [[1999]]. The Master soon possessed the body of a human ambulance driver named [[Bruce]].
 
----
 
--[[User:The Traveller|The Traveller]] 14:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 
:I think that the incarnation could use an entry, sure, though I think that the entry you posted could use a little work. (I think that the comic ''[[The Fallen]]'' and ''[[The Eight Doctors]]'' differ on what to call the "snake" version of the Master if I remember correctly, BTW. the production team of the TV Movie called it a "morphant" and I think "The Fallen" went with that. --[[User:Stardizzy2|Stardizzy2]] 18:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 
== The Doctor in Inferno Reality?  ==
 
The section for 'Alternate Versions of the Master' states that the Inferno Koschei is being tortured by order of the Inferno Doctor. This doesn't seem to be indicated at all in the novel -- and also, I'm not sure 'vivisected' was the appropriate word there, but that latter might just be me. If I'm wrong, could someone tell me where in the novel that is? Or is it in Inferno itself?--[[User:Hexiva|Hexiva]] 10:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 
:When Ian, the Brig and the Master come upon Koschei it's on page 239-241 of ''[[The Face of the Enemy]]'' which has all the information about what the alternate people have done to him. It's difficult to say whether it's actually vivesection or just extreme torture/surgery. Across those pages there's suggestion of it, but it's not implicit so perhaps a rewrite might be needed to make it clear what happened to him. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 17:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
::Sorry, I should have been more clear. I know where in the book the description of what's been done to Koschei is. I was just unsure of the wording. It's the fact that this is being done by the ''Doctor'' that doesn't seem to be supported by the novel. --[[User:Hexiva|Hexiva]] 01:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
::either of you should do a revision then. I probably added that part myself based on online summaries. I don't have a copy of that novel myself. --[[User:Stardizzy2|Stardizzy2]] 19:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 
==Koschei Real name==
Although this wiki does meld the TV and expanded continuities together, with a major character such as the Master, we should try and emphasize the fact that the Koschei name is not something that has ever been discussed on TV. Just as if a novel ever revealed the Doctor's real name. I've added a paragraph to Behind the Scenes, which might be sufficient, but maybe a footnote or a reference to the name being "unconfirmed" might also help a bit. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 15:40, October 30, 2009 (UTC)
:Um...no. Why exactly should the TV override the novels, audios, comics when it's only over-riding the lack of knowledge? It's not unconfirmed, ''[[The Dark Path]]'' clearly states what it is. If we start down the path of stating that things that haven't been discussed on TV are somehow 'less' than other things we're going to call into question a majority of this wiki. Spin-off media doesn't fall into a "grey area" as far as canon, see [[Tardis:Canon policy]]. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 16:14, October 30, 2009 (UTC)
The wording should be more clear about Koschei being from some novels, it may turn out that that was his name, it may also turn out that it wasn't. The name Koshei should be used sparingly or you just might find egg all over your face if Steve Moffet takes a different stand...
 
== Other Masters ==
 
I think maybe the Old Master from the beginning of the TV movie and the Young Master from the flashback in Sound of Drums should be included in the photo. I know that the Old Master may be the same one as Tremas, but there is no evidence to suggest this. I'm A Hydroponic Tomato! [[User:Bigredrabbit|Bigredrabbit]] 21:14, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
 
U know, In The Last of the Time Lords, i think the Master knew he was going to be revived when he was shot by his wife..., and mocked the Doctor by pretending to actually die for good. [[User:Sclera1|Sclera1]] 02:29, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 
== Additional Note ==
 
Can someone please add to the bit regarding the Master/Doctor psychic link that the Master acted jubilant and vindicated once he discovered someone else could hear the drums? This seems a pretty important point that was omitted from the page, as it defined the John Simm master, he was no longe "mad" but acting with a purpose once he found instructions from the drums - [[Special:Contributions/121.44.185.43|121.44.185.43]] 11:54, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
: More than this, I think the entire paragraph about the "Sound of Drums worsening because of his time as the human Professor Yana" may be debunked by "The End of Time", when both the Doctor, both the Master, imply a deeper link between the increasingly compelling "call of the drums" and the upcoming "end of time". So, it could be possible that the UNIT-Times Master already felt the drumming, but with a far more manageable compulsion since he was, relativistical speaking, more distant to the "End of Time", an event that, in his own timeline, would happen only after five "regenerations" (in the really unproper sense of the word that comes with having possessed a Trakenite and a morphant in between) later. Since, by now, the "drummings as insanity induced by the Chameleon Arc" and the "drummings as a mental equivalent of the Cloister Bell" are both '''rampant speculations''', and January 1th is near, I suggest leaving everything as it is, then, with the official data in hand, rewrite the sentences about the post-"Last of the Time Lords" continuity --[[Special:Contributions/217.201.210.49|217.201.210.49]] 17:42, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 
: ==time lock==
 
: how did the master break the time lock on the time war and escape to the end of the universe
 
== The master could save the time lords ==
 
"''Ever since I was a child... I looked into the Vortex and that's when it chose me. The drumming. The call. To war.''"
 
:―The Master
 
 
well I noticed this. When the master was attacking rassilon he walked into the light with them. meaning perhaps the master is back again in the timewar. The timelords could have healed him and time might just be rewritten. Maybe galifrey is no more but what about some timelords that might now be able to survive the war because of the master. Just a thought....
that might mean he is back in the time war. The greatest soldier of the timelords back on galifrey hours before its destruction. He ran away the first time but now hes timelocked inside the war with no choice but to fight. Could the timelords come back, some at least, maybe even galifrey
 
Doctor Who is moving on, it's in a new era, and Moffat is not continuing things like that. That era is gone and over. Gallifrey is gone, and the Master is gone. He used up the rest of his life energy, and then was sent into the Time War. The fun fact is, if you listen to dialouge, that was the final day of the Time War. Right before the Masster goes back with them, one of the Time Lords screams that Gallifrey is falling now. As soon as they were sent back, the (past) Doctor destroyed them all. That was the last day, and Gallifrey falls near the end of the episode. Let's just accept it.
 
The Master also redeemed himself, turned good, saved everyone, and sacfacied himself to send them back - where they are destroyed. The era is over, and they're gone forever. The only change of any Time Lords appearing are other survivrors that were not involved in the war. But other than that, the closest thing we will ever get to Gallifrey is a new Gallifrey founded by the Doctor or something, a new establishment in honour of the original. [[User:Delton Menace|Delton Menace]] 20:54, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 
I've still got a feeling we'll see The Master again. As history has shown us, if there's one thing The Master is really good at it's avoiding death. [[Special:Contributions/24.168.58.64|24.168.58.64]] 17:44, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 
Also, RTD mentioned that he would never kill off any real antagonist. While, RTD is not in charge anymore that means there is a slight, and only slight chance that the Master could come back in one form another.
 
 
 
Stephen Moffet has stated he wouldn't mind bringing the Master back, and John Simm has said he wouldn't mind coming back, so you never know...
 
== the drumming ==
 
How does the fact that the Time Lords put the Drums in the Masters head explain the fact that none of the previous masters mentioned it?[[Special:Contributions/90.196.215.114|90.196.215.114]] 18:50, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 
Well, it doesn't. My theory for why the drumming had never been mentioned before (besides the obvious fact that it wasn't introduced until RTD came up with the idea) has to do with how The Master is always claiming that the drumbeat is constantly getting louder. I like to think that it wasn't until this later point in his life that the drumbeat was loud enough to be of any signifigance. So it could have always been there in the back of his mind growing louder and louder, but I think it wasn't until it reached a certain volume that The Master felt it was worth mentioning. [[User:FixtheFernback|FixtheFernback]] 20:28, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 
== The Ten Masters ==
 
1. The Koschei Master - Seen in flash-backs in The Sound of Drums, The End of Time and big finish audio, Master appeared in The Missing Adventures, The Dark Path
 
2. The Original Master - Roger Delgado
 
 
3. The Decaying Master - Peter Pratt/Geoffrey Beevers
 
4. The Tremas Master - Anthony Ainley
 
5. The Decaying Master 2 - Voiced by Geoffrey Beevers in The Big Finish audios
 
6. The Rathbone Master - Gordon Tipple, appeared in the Virgin New Adventures, First Frontier, Happy Endings, appeared for about 4 secs in the TV movie
 
7. The Morphant Master - Eric Roberts
 
8. The Preacher Master - Appeared in Doctor Who Magazine comic strips, The Road to Hell and The Glorious Dead
 
9. The Professor Yana Master - Appeared in Utopia, played by Sir Derek Jacobi
 
10. The Harold Saxon Master - Played by John Simm in The Sound of Drums, Last of The Time-Lords and The End of Time
::This list makes a ''lot'' of assumptions. I'd never call the kid we saw in ''The Sound of Drums'' the "Koschei" Master. And I have no idea where you're getting "The Rathbone Master" from. I mean I know you gave sources, but I don't see how you're connecting [[First Frontier]] to the TVM. Big leap of faith to suggest that a writer in 1993/4 was presaging a Master that would occur in a 1996 production fo which he couldn't possibly have had any knowledge. Anyone know what Gordon Tipple actually looks like, anyway? Does he look like Basil Rathbone? Somehow I kinda doubt it. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 08:23, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
 
== The Drumbeat ==
 
Unless I am mistaken this article seems to infer that the master didn't have the drum beat until after the time war. This makes little sense as the time lords mention the master having the drum beat before they even put it in his head. It seems to be more of an ontological paradox than a case of the time lords changing history.
==Key Life Events Not Schemes==
Wouldn't key life events fit the manual of style better than the schemes section? it just seems out of place to me as the info his alredy elaborated on higher up. [[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revanvolatrelundar]] 18:05, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
==Spin off Incarnation Pages==
would it be against the manual of style if i created a page for the master that appeared during the virgin new adventures and used the picture from the television movie for the article main pic? as i think the the spin off masters should be included as seperate incarnation with their own pages just like the TV ones. [[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revanvolatrelundar]] 12:26, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 
== The Master page ==
 
It recently said the master is gay, but I have changed it back. I have copy and pasted an old code so it could use some cleaning up again when ever someone has the time. keep an eye out for any other pages this person may have destroyed as well. I shall also keep an eye out. [[User:Tivis014|Tivis014]] 2:40, October 21, 2010 (EST)
 
== The master as a title ==
 
Is it possible that the Master is just a title? While the old one is gone due to the events of End of Time, could it be possbile that another Time Lord would take that postion up,
 
The Master is a name that he chose for himself, just like the Doctor chose his name. There are no other Timelords who went by The Master. Even if it was just a title, another Timelord can't take up the position. I don't know if you were paying attention during End of Time, but there are no other Timelords anymore.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 23:37, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 
==Eleven Masters image==
[[File:Eleven Masters.png|thumb|...]]
I uploaded this image of the Eleven seen incarnations of The Master. I think that covers all of them, unless we want to include the first version of Tersurus or the blonde version of Saxon (and maybe the spoof version?). It's based off the Eleven Doctors image so the sizes are all weird, but it's at least consistent between the two.
 
Is it all right to add to this page?--[[Special:Contributions/99.29.140.149|99.29.140.149]] 17:40, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
Yeah, go ahead. I created the current one to replace an image that was against this wiki's policy. Thanks for the upload.----[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 17:53, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
 
Do we really need all of these pictures of the Master in the main image. I think that it is enough if we just show the main ones that appear in the TV shows. Even if we keep the images from the spinoffs though, we don't really need any of the Masters from the TV Movie apart from the Eric Roberts Master. I always assumed that the Master in the prison at the beginning was supposed to be the Anthony Ainley Master, since the Master couldn't regenerate in his Trakenite body. Even if it is a different Master, he was on screen for less than a minute, and you can't see his face in the picture. The weird ghost snake thing isn't even a real incarnation. It was the same incarnation that was exterminated at the beginning, but in a different form. If we put the snake in that image, then why don't we add in Yana's fob watch. The Master's consciousness was in that, so does that make it an incarnation. And adding in both versions of the Tersurus Master, and the blode Saxon Master would be repetitive. By that logic, all of the Ainley Master's ridiculous disguises should be in their. And The Curse of Fatal Death is non-canon, so that Master should not be in the image. Unless, you want to add all the spoof Doctors to his image.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 23:33, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
:I'm gonna side with [[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]], here.  I don't think we have a responsibility to put ''all'' images of a Time Lord up on a general page about that Time Lord,  As on the [[companion]] page, I think we can illustrate the ''concept'' with three-four images.  Especially here.  There are only three actors to have played the Master on TV for more than one story.  Simm, Ainley and Delgado are the "major" Masters, so they're the only ones that really ''need'' to be in the infobox.  Or we could go with a more neutral ruling and that, in the case of Time Lords, only the most ''recent'' actor to play the role gets to be in the infobox.  Or we could go with an equally neutral "first and last actor" role.  So a Delgado/Simm split screen pic.  Whatever we decide, Icecreamdif has a serious point.  You can't take a 250px pic, divide it 11 ways, and have an illustration that parses quickly and cleanly. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}&nbsp;<span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''23:52:47 Tue&nbsp;'''05 Apr 2011&nbsp;</span>
I think the image should be either just Simm, or just Simm and Delgado. I don't think that we should show all the "major" masters, because it could be open to interpretaion as to who they are. For example, why should Simm be a "major" Master, but not Pratt/Beevers. Both of those Masters were basically in 2 television stories. If we do change the Master's infobox image, then should we also change the Doctor's?[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 23:57, April 7, 2011 (UTC)
:Yes, the Doctor and Master images should closely approximate each other, or have good reason not too. The reason I put in all 11 images was to disregard any notion of subjectivity in deciding who was a "real" Master (Simm, Delgado?). The Tipple Master is probably not the Ainley Master because we saw how Ainley Master died and became Mr Seta and all that nonsense in the New Adventures novels and Big Finish audio books. I could take or leave the Tipple Master, since it was just a generic regenerative form of his between Mr Seta and Eric Roberts with nothing more to go on. But I think the morphant and child Master (the only positive image of the Master's first incarnation) are very important for an image giving an overview of his different incarnations. The two comic images are also important, to drive the point that this site and this page includes a lot of non-televised stories and different incarnations of the Master have been explored in these stories and are covered equally. There are exactly 11 images, in the *exact same* proportions as on the Doctor image, so their can't be any argument about image viewing or accessibility that wouldn't apply to the Doctor's image equally. Eliminating people for aesthetics here and not there leads to a slippery slope (are we judging on number of appearances? There goes Eric Roberts. On type of appearance? Their goes audiobook equality believers.). Also, The Master and The Doctor are the only two characters who would have an image of this size. Similar characters (Rassilon, Romana), would have much smaller images with only a few images tops. This seems to be the best way to handle articles on characters with regenerative/"face changing" behavior in a completely objective manner.--[[User:Tim Thomason|Tim Thomason]] 07:47, April 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
Then maybe there should be fewer images for the infobox in both this page, and the Doctor's page. If it was a human character, we wouldn't show images of the person from every stage of their lives. With most characters, we show how they most recently appeared, so this page should just have the Simm Master, and the Doctor's page should just have the Smith Doctor. Obvously, pictures of their other incarnations would appear in the body of the article.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 15:37, April 9, 2011 (UTC)
: Maybe, like above, Delgado and Simm (and Hartnell and Smith) with some kind of arrow pointing to a gallery or the first section below. Or maybe no image at all (or a picture of, I don't know, the Doctor's calling card and the Master's fob watch?). A picture of the most recent image of a person in a regular human being is still a picture of that same person. The Doctor had 11 seperate full-grown versions of himself. The Master has anywhere between 5 and 23 full-grown versions of himself.--[[Special:Contributions/75.49.218.60|75.49.218.60]] 23:27, April 9, 2011 (UTC)
 
The problem is, whilst there have been eleven Doctors, there have only been six Masters. Plus, we don't put the Peter Cushing Doctor on, so we shouldn't have all of them. Not the illustrations or snake one, at least. --[[User:BillyWilliam3rd|BillyWilliam3rd]] 14:16, April 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
The fact is that we are not like wikipedia, we treat most spin off media as canon, therefore the spin off media Masters should be shown on the main image. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 13:20, April 14, 2011 (UTC)
 
I agree with Revan, we should equally show the spin-off Masters. Not so sure about the [[Deathworm]] though, is that an incarnation?----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 16:02, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
 
==Master's age==
I know a lot about the [[Master]],but I only have one question:How old is he?
 
From [[Special:Contributions/76.235.57.29|76.235.57.29]] 20:30, April 8, 2011 (UTC)
 
He went to the Academy with the Doctor, so probably around his age.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 15:38, April 9, 2011 (UTC)
: Heh, probably not, due to time travel and all. I don't think we have any information to support any age for the Master. It could be anywhere between 50 and 10,000 years (or beyond). He used up all his 13 lives and was a withering corpse on Tersurus... but he also scolded the Doctor for hanging on to his first life too long. He also spent nearly a lifetime as a human (Yana). It's a complete unknown how old the Master is.--[[User:Tim Thomason|Tim Thomason]] 00:33, April 12, 2011 (UTC)
 
== Main image and the template ==
I am completley against this "Eleven Masters" image. Why have we got the spin-off sones? Or even the eight-year-old Master on it? This is ludicrous. It is because, spin-off media''' does '''have equal importance, but not enough to be on the main image. ''Doctor Who ''is a television programme, and the Master is one of the most well-known "monsters" there has ever been. Sometimes spin-off media "fill in the gaps" of Doctor Who, such as "Why did the Sixth Doctor regenerate?". The "Tzan" version of the Master filled in the gap of ''[[Survival]]'' and ''[[Doctor Who (1996)]]'', through a comic strip. So my main point is, that the TV ones should be on the main image, and the spin-off ones should be mentioned throughout the article.
Oh, and another thing. The template, The Masters template. I did think that the spin-off ones should be at least mentioned. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 16:18, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
 
:They are of equal importance in my opinion. Spin-off media isn't just to fill a gap. What gap exactly do the BFAs or PDAs fill. Just saying "please don't change this" is the only ludicrous thing here.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 16:14, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
 
::''Doctor Who'' isn't '''just''' a TV programme, there were '''years''' when it wasn't even that. Right from practically the start the stories being told weren't ''just'' TV ones. I reject that the series' that have been produced outside of the TV series ''just'' fill in the gaps.
::The composite infobox image helps to give a summary of the essential elements of the character. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 16:22, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
 
::I agree, there is no reason why the spin off Masters shouldn't be on the main image, this wikia treats all media with the same credibility and this should be reflected everywhere, not selectively. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 16:35, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
 
I understand that this wiki considers the spin-off stuff to be equally canon to the actual show, but it seems ridiculous to say that the cartoon Master is just as important as the Roger Delgado or John Simm Masters.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 17:39, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Why? ''Doctor Who'' can be enjoyed through any medium and have an impact through any of those, the comic story based Master dealt with issues on a similar level as the TV based character.
:The image is trying to show what's covered on the article, I found it also illustrated the diverse range of stuff we cover on the wiki. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 17:48, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
::Where's the "Final Frontier" Master. He is not shown up there. So it is incomplete. But mine shows all the ones on TV, they're the most significant. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 07:58, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
No, they're not. You can't just state an unfounded opinion. What evidence do you have for spin-off media being less important?----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 10:07, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
:But you didn't answer my question. Where is the "Final Frontier" Master, and why isn't it up there? [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 13:40, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
::There is no image of that Master, as he originated in novels. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 13:46, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
Strange how your questioning the absence of one, but proposing the removal of many. All forms of media are equal in my opinion, there is no reason why a comic strip Master shouldn't be given the same priority.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 13:49, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
:The view that TV incarnations are the only canon is Wikipedia's policy, so on there I would say yes, only TV Masters. But on here everything official is canon, so policy should reflect how we do our main images. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 13:56, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
Yeah, I'm not a fan of wikipedia's view. It seems that just cannot be bothered incorporating them...so they don't.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 14:01, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
::I too am against the eleven-image thing, but for a solid reason of page design.  It's only 250px, folks — not a centrefold spread.  Think ''simple'', not ''complete''.  The picture on ''any'' article doesn't need to be of every single thing ever purporting to be the subject of the article.  It only needs to be enough to ''illustrate'' the topic in broad strokes.  A simple split of Delgado and Simm — or at most Delgado, Simm, Roberts and Ainley — tell the reader, there's more than one of these guys.  That's ''all'' that needs to happen.  We don't need every companion at [[companion]], every Cyberman at [[Cyberman]], every Dalek at [[Dalek]], and, frankly, we don't need every Doctor at [[the Doctor]].  It's even more the case here, where we simply don't have pictures of some of the incarnations.  This argument that we're being "unfair" to Masters in other media is absolutely spurious.  It's about the 250px width and how simply we can illustrate the concept at that width.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}&nbsp;<span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''14:11:28 Sat&nbsp;'''18 Jun 2011&nbsp;</span>
 
Well, if you laid it out in a similar style to the Doctors image (and removed the Deathworm, that isn't an incarnation) it would probably work well anyway.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 14:18, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
I agree with Czechout. Apart from the questions of which media is more important, that image was as useless as the old companion image was. It would make more sense for this to just be Delgado and Simm, and for the Doctor's page to be Hartnell and Smith. There could still be pictures of all the other Masters, both spin-off and television, in the body of the article.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 14:57, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
:I agree with Skittles. We have all the canon incarnations of [[the Doctor]], [[Rassilon]], [[Borusa]] and [[Romana]], so why not the Master? The Rassilon image contains a comic image? Should that be removed? No. Therefore, the eleven (or ten if we remove the Deathworm) should stay. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 16:57, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
Where as companion is a term and Cybermen have distinct variants, this is just a character with a different face. I think it is important to show each one to some degree.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 17:14, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Which we can — and indeed ''must'' — in the '''body''' of the article.  Presence in the infobox pic is not equivalent to ''importance''.  Putting first and last incarnations here and at [[the Doctor]] doesn't diminish the importance of the intervening incarnations.  It just says, "We've got 250px here; we'd rather go with a picture where you can easily see the faces without having to magnify it." 
 
:To those who don't know how many incarnations there are, having two-up — one in black-and-white/old-grainy-colour and the other in modern colour — immediately tells the story.  It says, "This character isn't just the current series; he goes back a ''long'' way." 
 
:To those who ''do'' know the character well, putting up a Delgado/Simm split will obviously say, "Oh, that's the first Master and the most recent one."  It won't scream "incomplete"; it'll say "first and last".  If you go for a four-up or six-up design, that's where you get into arguments of "completeness".  By limiting to two, it's ''obviously'' incomplete, so there must be some ''other'' organising principle at work.
 
:I see people arguing against this because they say we do eleven-up at [[the Doctor]].  In my view, that page is wrong, just like this one.  They ''both'' should be simple two-up designs. Simple, clear imagery is always better than overly complete ones.  There are nice, big articles at both pages just crying out to be well-illustrated.  It doesn't need to be jammed up in the infobox. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}&nbsp;<span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''00:33:53 Mon&nbsp;'''20 Jun 2011&nbsp;</span>  
 
I disagree with the Rassilon image, and I'll try and change it sooner or later. But in the meantime I have got a very good reason why we don't need the spin-off Masters:
 
#'''The Looms''', a way of explaining the Time Lord reproductive system in a few Virgin spin-off books, such as [[Lungbarrow]] and [[Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible]]. '''But it has never been mentioned on screen''', and in a flashback they showed the Master as an eight-year-old, and in the latest episode they said the the Doctor had a cot.
 
So there! Spin-off media isn't always canonical! [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 06:47, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
Yes it is. Read the canon policy. If two accounts are in dispute, both are listed. As for CzechOut's point, I think you can clearly show 10/11 faces. The image at "[[the Doctor]]" is '''easily''' visible. However, if your saying that two would be more aesthetically pleasing, then that's a good point.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 09:42, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
:All of the main media, i.e. comics, television, audio and novels are treated equal. There is not one that trumps the other, not one of them is better than another one. They are the same, the only difference is that television stories are seen by a wider audience. There are some users who may not watch the television series, and only read comics, or listen to audio, and therefore everything is treated equally. It is part of the canon policy. I don't see why you cannot understand that. Every thing is equal. I fail to see why television must take priority when all media is treated the same. And also, leave the Rassilon image alone. Forget about it, until we reach an agreement about what to do with this image. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 11:06, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
I could settle with the first Master and latest Master being on the infobox picture as CzechOut suggested. Cortion, if you took out all the spin off material on this wikia because it wasn't as important as television then we wouldn't even need the wikia, we would just have Wikipedia. The notion of some aspects of spin off media contradicting TV is understandable, Doctor Who has been around for almost 50 years, so at some point something is bound to contradict something else, even TV episodes have contradicted each other before (The Doctor's age as being 953 in Time of the Rani and 903 in Voyage of the Damned). --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 11:27, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
Alright listen. Why can't we have as a caption for my image: For spin-off incarnations, [whatever you want to put here]. Will that suit any of you? [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 15:13, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
:No, because that is relagating them to another position. They need to be '''equal'''. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 15:31, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
:Wait..what? What's "your image". If it looks like it will treat other media as lesser, then no. And you still not answering the question of why you think television is more important that other media. It is not. As per the canon policy. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 15:32, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
:: I am in support of the First and Last Masters being shown in the infobox, this does not relegate spin off Masters. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 15:34, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
:::I think the image should have nine faces on it, which are the faces of the nine Masters shown in the "incarnations of the Master" template. If it's a three by three colum, it will look fine. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 15:39, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
::::Checking through Cortion's contributions I'd imagine it is this image; [[:File:Six-masters.jpg]]. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:42, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
 
Of course the TV shows are more important than the spin-off stuff. The TV show came first, and all the spin-offs are just based on the TV shows. The looms for example, are clearly non-canon. What do you think that future stories (both television and spin-off) are more likely to follow. The spin-off canon where the Timelords are loomed, or the actual television canon, where the Doctor had a crib when he was a baby, and the Master was an eight year old child? THe thing about the Doctor's age is a much more minor inconsistency. The Doctor probably doesn't even know his age with all the time travelling that he's done. The loom thing is a major inconsticency, that is obviously no longer considered canon by anyone involved in the show. On an slighly related note, the Rassilon image looks awful. If you must keep all the spin-off images in the infobox, at least lay it out the way that Borusa's is layed out, instead of having them all nect to eachother.[[User:Gowron8472|Gowron8472]] 22:10, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:27, 14 March 2024

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How to refer to each incarnation of the Master[[edit]]

Well, I think some of us were hoping it'd be simpler, but the fact that Talk:The Master (The TV Movie) discussion and Talk:The Master (The Keeper of Traken) are going on at the same time with seemingly different ideas made me think we should just discuss this. This is not necessarily meant to be a discussion to determine a name or page title for each Master; those should still happen on their talk page. This is just a discussion on having consistency between them.

This long comment started as something I was going to write for Talk:The Master (The TV Movie), with me saying I think it should either be both Tremas Master and Bruce Master, or both The Master (The TV Movie) and The Master (The Keeper of Traken), for consistency. …But then in the latter case, arguably some of the others should also use disambiguation terms. I personally think that for the "main" Masters (i.e. those not ambiguous or from another reality) should either all use descriptions for page titles, with the possible exception of The Master (Terror of the Autons) (the reason for which is currently discussed on his talk page and should remain there), or all use disambiguation terms, with the exceptions of Decayed Master, War Master, Missy and the Lumiat. Having any other sort of mixed arrangement would just be confusing. Please note I am not saying the wiki must subscribe to the above dichotomy, just that I think it needs to be discussed. But there's another problem:

Initially I too subscribed to the story dab pattern, for neutrality. But the problem is, the incarnations still need a name to be referred to with in articles to specify them. We can't say "The Doctor met the Master (Dominion)." in an article. It'd have to be something like "The Doctor met the Reborn Master." This means even if they're not page titles, descriptive names are necessary anyway. There are a few proposed names that work well enough with their story titles, like "Traken Master" (from The Keeper of Traken) or "Spy Master" (from Spyfall). But for most of them, a different name is needed to maintain an in-universe perspective, and because the text of the wiki will be using these names to identify the incarnations, it makes sense to me to have them be the page names anyhow, regardless of what they actually are. I am not 100% against using names on pages and disambiguation terms for (most) titles, which is essentially the status quo, but I think the page title should reflect how the character is almost always referred to on the wiki…

Last note, this is a bit pedantic, but I think it makes a difference: I think descriptive names which are derived from a name themselves should use quotes— basically, "Tremas" Master instead of Tremas Master, "Bruce" Master instead of Bruce Master, and "Saxon" Master instead of Saxon Master. This not only reads better to me, for example alleviating concerns that "Bruce Master" sounds like, and probably is, some guy's name, but also better conveys the reasons those names are being used. Currently quotes are variably used for all descriptive names (particularly with coverage of Masterful you might see something like "the 'Young' Master"), but I think that's too difficult to read and that is the best way to use them. Chubby Potato ☎ 05:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

As previously mentioned at Talk:Fugitive Doctor, on no account should we use quotes for the actual page names (e.g. it is and will remain Decayed Master, not "Decayed" Master). This interferes with searchability and is ungainly besides. Big Finish's own box set titles don't say The "War" Master, either; nor do the Masterful credits from which we derive the proposed Saxon Master, Reborn Master or Tremas Master renames use such quotation marks.
This point aside, my intuition thus far is that we use quotation marks when pipe-linking dabbed The Master (Something) pages for clarity — precisely to emphasise that something is a nickname which isn't really that page's proper title. For example, the "UNIT era" Master. This is informal practice and that discussion would be in a position to reform it, though, myself, I think it's intuitive enough. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Scrooge, you're drawing an equivalence between quite unlike things. Of course we don't use "Fugitive" Doctor or "Decayed" Master, since those names are straightforwardly descriptive of each character in their entirety. But there is a straightforward difference between those names and names which are based on identities used only temporarily by the characters. "Missy" is not an alias in the same way that "Harold Saxon" is.
I very much like Chubby's suggestion. This is what it would take for me to get on board with some otherwise-repulsive suggestions: it makes "Bruce Master" sound less like the name of my next-door neighbor, and it suitably contextualizes the conjectural leap we're making in incarnation naming. In particular, I disagree with the idea that this would interfere with searchability in any way. Quote marks work fine in the search bar, and now that Fandom has made search work better with redirects, typing the same name without quotes will return the same result in a transparent fashion. Neither search nor precedent is an argument against this proposal. – n8 (☎) 14:47, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of the quotation marks. Whilst I can understand why people might want to use them for Tremas, Saxon and Bruce, I'm 100% against using them for the Reborn Master; "reborn" is an adjective, just like "decayed", so I don't see why it would be treated any differently. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 20:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
No one has suggested using them for the Reborn Master. I would also be opposed to such a thing. – n8 (☎) 21:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I would choose Bruce Master over "Bruce" Master, Saxon Master over "Saxon" Master, Tremas Master over "Tremas" Master, Keller Master over "Keller" Master, etc. Aesthetics aside, the key problem here, which I'm surprised people are overlooking, is that placing quotation marks around part of a name does not actually communicate "this name is unofficial" in any clear or intuitive way. They could just as easily be read as some sort of quotation from some unspecified in-universe or out-of-universe source, or as in-universe nicknames (since quotation marks commonly signify a nickname when used for some but not all component words in a name; for example Punished "Venom" Snake from Metal Gear). With or without them, the wiki would still be making the same arbitrary call to employ the alias / host's name as an adjective when it was never used as such officially. That's OK by me - there's some objective, factual basis to describing Roberts's character "the Bruce Master", Simm's "the Saxon Master", etc - but if we're doing it, we should commit to doing it properly, in a way that gives the reader an uncluttered, consistent experience. Quotation marks are just confusing and distracting in this context. If a name is deemed so dodgy that it requires quotation marks, then we should just continue to disambiguate by debut appearance. PintlessMan ☎ 21:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

My vote would go to: The "Bruce" Master, The "Tremas" Master and The "Saxon" Master - with quotation marks as shown. To me, this indicates they are The Master but that there are sub-names to differentiate and distinguish them. Conversely, I wouldn't use quotation marks for The War Master, as there are countless examples of that name being used widely across various releases. FractalDoctor ☎ 00:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I can’t believe I forgot to comment on this earlier. I am in support of “Bruce” Master and its ilk (with obvious exceptions for the War Master and the Decayed Master). While I personally find the premise of quotation marks in the link name to be aesthetically unappealing, it goes a long way in assuaging the concerns of those more skeptical about these sort of names. Likewise, it is how they’ve historically been used in-line. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 13:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
I would very much like to throw my two cents into this conversation. I think that whenever possible, we should note what number regeneration each Master is, much like the Doctor or the General. We obviously don't know for all of them, but we do know the numbers for a few. The Decayed Master is the Thirteenth Master, the Tremas Master is the Fourteenth Master, the First Frontier Master is the Fifteenth Master, the Bruce Master is the Sixteenth Master, the Preacher Master is the Seventeenth Master, and the Reborn Master is the Eighteenth Master. If we wanted to guess (even if we're not absolutely certain) we can even assume that the War Master is the Nineteenth Master and the Saxon Master is the Twentieth Master. I just think it makes things more orderly on here, which is something we could definitely use given the convoluted history of this character. -- MattTheNerd42 ☎ 17:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
What's your source for the numbering? Aquanafrahudy 📢 17:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Whether stolen bodies even count is significantly controversial, but the problem is that if they do, then (depending on accounts) no numbering can be relied upon. In Mastermind and Short Trips: The Centenarian a post-TVM Beevers Master steals a number of bodies for varying periods of time, in just the same way he stole Roberts's. If we counted them all, then Macqueen might be, like, the Thirty-First.
Moreover, BF only inconsistently acknowledge the events of First Frontier; the Dust Breeding account bypasses it entirely, claiming that Ainley was reverted directly to Beevers. (This implies that Tipple in the TVM was a stolen body he acquired at some point — but we cannot assume that there was just one in that gap, so it doesn't necessarily "make up" the numbers with a different-but-equivalent "Fifteenth Master"!) Then, of course, there's the accounts where it's Ainley who's placed on trial, like The Eight Doctors, which would make your count come up one short, making Roberts the Fifteenth…
Also, some accounts claim that the Decayed Master was just a decayed version of Delgado, making Delgado the Thirteenth Master as well. Covering them on the same page is obviously not desirable, but we can't just act as though Beevers was the only possible Thirteenth candidate. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 18:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
And the Preacher Master can't be the Seventeenth Master, because The Master (The Curse of Fatal Death) is. Well, he could be an alternate incarnation, but it's clearly not so straightforward as it seems. Aquanafrahudy 📢 18:18, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's really possible to assign numbers. The waters are too murky. At this point, even if Sacha Dhawan showed up again on screen and proclaimed "I am the Xth Master" it would still be arguable. Also, even if we did have one or two numbers, nobody ever refers to them as such - nobody says "I loved the Twelfth Master" in the same way we might say "I loved the Twelfth Doctor" for example — Fractal Doctor @ 21:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure I completely agree there. If a new Master was introduced as "[Numeral] Master", we don't have the right to reject that name even if it doesn't sit well with other sources that depict more or less incarnations of the Master up until that point.
We shouldn't make up incarnation numbers, but if one ever officially exists, we should use it. (Maybe as "according to one account".)
We don't elect to not use "Fourteenth Doctor" even though he is technically the sixteenth (inc. War Doctor and the VanityTen) or perhaps the the thirty-third (inc. Timeless Children, Fugitive Doctor, "Morbius" Doctors). 21:16, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Fair points. I did say it would be debatable though, not that we should dismiss it immediately out of hand. In such an instance, I think "according to one account" would work. In any case, I doubt this would ever happen, unless it's done jokingly (similar to Smith's Doctor telling Clyde he could regenerate 507 times). — Fractal Doctor @ 21:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images[[edit]]

Although tabs haven't yet been implemented here yet, following the discussion at Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Replacing docpic, I have a potential way to let us have the tabs listed chronologically but with the most recent incarnation selected by default which I have presented at Talk:The Doctor#Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images. It could easily be applied here as well. Bongo50 ☎ 22:06, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Tabbed gallery[[edit]]

I note this page still needs a tabbed gallery. The Doctor page works well starting from the first known incarnation, so maybe the Master should follow suit (except with "A", "B", "C", etc.) Fractal Doctor ☎ 11:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. Done, though as stated in my thread closure, the option of switching out this or that image is of course available. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 13:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, Scrooge MacDuck. Is the absence of a certain Destination Wars Master on purpose? Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:00, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
As I just finished telling User:Jack "BtR" Saxon, it's "on purpose" in the sense that I was sticking with his absence from {{masterpic}} and with the basic precedent of not including the "according to one account" pre-Delgado incarnations established by the prior decision against including Brayshaw on the template. Also, aside from his controversial existence, it stands to reason that we don't want a somewhat "random" incarnation like Dreyfus to be the perennial default thumbnail instead of Delgado. All of this is in line with Jo Martin & friends not being represented on The Doctor. But Jack argues that we do include the also-controversial John Hurt at The Doctor, so perhaps we could consider the place of the pre-Delgado Masters on this one. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

This might be too outlandish an idea but just a thought I had, that could solve that (here and on other pages) - would it be possible to have a secondary tabbed gallery maybe further down the page, containing miscellaneous/somewhat ambiguous incarnations. I'm guessing it would have some pushback, and could be viewed as confusing, but it's just a suggestion.

I do think this page should begin with Delgado because of the reasons you stated. Worth noting that we do include Hurt in the tabbed Doctor gallery, and we include the Lumiat in this one (as well as others). The only difference with Dreyfus is that he's pre-Delgado and so instead of being mid-gallery, he'd be eternally at the beginning/the default starting image, and I completely understand why a lot of people wouldn't want this. (I wouldn't want this either, but is there an alternative, other than just leaving him out?) Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, as I said, the alternative would be to start with William Hughes, thus sandwiching him away. But I would find it hard to justify including these two and not other alleged pre-Delgado Masters e.g. the War Chief, and that might get very controversial very quickly (I would be willing to bite the bullet of including Peter Butterworth, but I don't think many people would! This is just what we have the "no controversial information in infoboxes" rule of thumb for.)
As regards a more thorough gallery of incarnations, this sounds like a very good use of the proposed usage of galleries on in-universe page, which is currently against policy but is one of the proposals currently rising through the Temp Forums propositions table. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
I don't think the likes of the Monk and the War Chief are comparable to the likes of Parker and Dreyfus. With the Monk and the War Chief, there are conflicting accounts on whether or not they are the Master. There's no such confusion with Parker and Dreyfus. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 14:15, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, Scrooge.

I'm probably opening a huge can of worms (and maybe not in the best suited place) by asking about the War Chief and what the evidence is for and against him being an incarnation of the Master, but I think it's worth noting that Dreyfus' incarnation was invented as, and specifically designed to be an earlier incarnation of the Master, and I think there's a debate about that warranting inclusion. I've just had a look at your back-and-forth with Jack "BtR" Saxon, and both of you raise good points. I think it's a debate to be had though at some stage, and good note about the upcoming galleries discussion. That could solve some issues down the line.

(I wrote this before seeing Jack's response just now. I'm sitting on the fence and viewing both sides, but ultimately I'm siding with Jack's reasoning here, if I'm honest.) Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

@Jack, they're not exactly the same situation, sure, but there are certainly accounts by which lights no such persons as Parker or Dreyfus's Masters could have existed (The Dark Path positing that Koschei didn't call himself "the Master" yet by the time he left Gallifrey is the obvious one). Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Tangential question: is Parker meant to be the same incarnation as the 'child' we saw in The Sound of Drums flashback, or not? Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

On the whole I'm less concerned about specific cases than about what a giant can of worms pre-Delgado Masters are, such that starting the infobox at Delgado just seems like the cutoff point that will cause the fewest headaches. It's a line in the sand, not a natural boundary, but it's a common-sense sort of line in the sand that readers will easily grok as saying "we're starting with Delgado for IRL reasons/sanity" rather than a judgment-call statement of "such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters count more than such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters". A full gallery elsewhere on the page, if the Temp Forums pass that reform, would then sound like quite an attractive proposal to supplement it.
(Re: Parker/Hughes… that's another controversial one. Per recent BTS quotes, it seems that yes, but that's ambiguous in the stories themselves, particularly as they have some conspicuous physical differences e.g. eye colour. So that's another area of possible contention.) Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not gunna die on this hill, and I'd be happy to wait until the Temp Forum discussion happens regarding a potential alternative before continuing this debate.

I also note here that there may even be a hint of Big Finish muddying the waters themselves anyway, or subtly trying to retcon a few things in light of IRL events surrounding Dreyfus and his positioning anyway? Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

If the preacher (who appears in half as many stories as Dreyfus) and the Asian child (who is apparently not even intended to be a mainline Master) are included, there's no justification for excluding Dreyfus. Including pre-Delgado incarnations is no more "opening a can of worms" than including post-Delgado ones. I think we should either stick with major TV incarnations (as on The Doctor) or include the lot, not this weird middle ground. PintlessMan ☎ 16:32, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

It has been nearly half a year with no further discussion. Again, given the inclusion of the Preacher and the Child, there is no excuse for excluding the Inventor, an actual mainline Master who is named "The Master", appears as the main Master in multiple stories, and is explicitly positioned prior to Delgado. Can we please get this resolved now? PintlessMan ☎ 23:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
No we cannot. To begin with, it is non-trivial that his "being named 'the Master' and appears as the main Master in multiple stories" is operative with regards to why he should be included, but not Hughes/Parker or Butterworth or Brayshaw or Magnus.
But more importantly, I still think there is no reason to include Dreyfus here if we do not include Jo Martin at The Doctor (she explicitly the Doctor by name, explicitly before the currently-earliest incarnation in the gallery, and has begun appearing as the lead in her own stories). And I don't believe we should do either of those things. There is a long-standing policy of keeping controversial in-universe information out of infoboxes (hence "The Doctor's species" being used in all Doctors' species field). Although it can be bent on a case-by-case basis, I think setting things such that incarnations whose very existence is highly dependent on contradictory accounts, like any of the pre-Delgado Masters or the various pre-Hartnell Doctors, would appear as the page's default thumbnail in categories and Google searches, would be in stark violation of the spirit of that policy. How recurring the Inventor or Fugitive might become doesn't enter into it. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
I personally think that the CoFD Master should get a look in, although the question of exactly where to place him is something of a conundrum. Aquanafrahudy 📢 11:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
On the other hand, of course, we could place him between Bruce and Preacher. Aquanafrahudy 📢 16:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Relationship between Master and Meddling Monk[[edit]]

I see this site now uses FASA narrative as valid. And it contains something that may settle the controversial issue once and for all. Peter Butterworth's character in The Time Meddler is said to be the Master, but then we also have a "Meddling Monk" in Follow That TARDIS!, plus Rufus Hound in Big Finish Audios. So, how can Butterworth be the Master, AND Hound be a Time Lord unambiguously separate from the Master called "the Meddling Monk"?

The FASA narrative explictly states that in 1066(The Time Meddler) the Master disguised himself as the Meddling Monk. And that this wasn't one of his(the Master's) best schemes. So, in the same way David Morrissey in The Next Doctor wasn't actually The Doctor, Peter Butterworth in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan WAS NOT ACTUALLY THE MEDDLING MONK. He was the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk.

So, while there may be a Mortimus/Meddling Monk separate to the Master, the guy in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan was NOT the Meddling Monk. It was the Master DISGUISED AS the Meddling Monk. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 197.87.143.20 (talk).

Oh good, you again.
Well, according to one account, yes. (Though it's reading the text against itself to imagine that in FASA's account there is such a thing as a real Monk who simply is not the one who actually appears in The Time Meddler.) But according to other accounts it was in fact a distinct guy in Time Meddler. There are conflicting accounts, and this is not a problem, this is not something that needs to be "settled", it's just a fact. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 09:33, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

"Quote marks"[[edit]]

We finally ditched the quote marks from "The Doctor", post-fork, should we do the same here? × Fractal • 21:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
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