Talk:Lenny Henry Regenerates into David Tennant (TV story)

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Revision as of 02:20, 26 March 2023 by Scrooge MacDuck (talk | contribs)

14th Doctor?

But is Tennant playing the 14th Doctor? It's a sort of mash-up because he's not using the Doctor's voice, and knowingly goes to host Comic Relief (and appears live as David Tennant). The only "in universe" elements are the regeneration effect and David in the costume. Fractal Doctor ☎ 19:24, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Similar thoughts regarding this "appearance" which is clearly just Tennant in costume. Fractal Doctor ☎ 19:27, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

While I jokingly added this segment to Theory:Timeline - Fourteenth Doctor, I don't genuinely believe that this is supposed to be taken in any way literally or to add "genuine" information to the Doctor Who universe and therefore it should be invalid. 19:29, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
You shouldn't be updating the Wiki with information you don't even believe to be true, surely? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 19:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
The timeline pages are theories which allow NONVALID sources. It isn't too hard to believe this sketch could be intepreted as an alternate account for the purposes of a timeline. 19:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
That doesn't change the fact that people care about those pages and put a lot of effort into them so you intentionally adding a self proclaimed "joke" onto them is disrespectful in my opinion. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 19:57, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
I mean, if it's accurate information, even if added as a joke, it's an overall positive, surely. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 20:00, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
Well, that's what this discussion is trying to determine, surely? Again, doesn't change the fact that information was added as a joke. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 20:05, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Everyone please. If you're going to have a debate about that page, surely it has a talk page.

Personally, I don't have an issue with this story being made invalid. But I do believe every story deserves proper discussion, with some facts.

Now, can anyone who has seen it confirm that David Tennant hosts the rest of this show, and not the Doctor? Even if he is playing the Doctor I don't think it would "help" the story remain valid, but I would like to know. OS25🤙☎️ 20:30, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@DrWHOCorrieFan, please don't try to read into my actions as deliberate attempts to be disrespectful. Assume good faith, it is part of being an editor. 20:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

OS25, David Tennant hosts the rest of the show in a red/black suit as himself. Fractal Doctor ☎ 20:54, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Well I think this being invalid isn't controversial then. OS25🤙☎️ 21:00, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
However it’s worth noting that the official Comic Relief YouTube just uploaded the minisode as “Lenny Henry Regenerates Into David Tennant!”. No more than standardised clickbait title than an actual one see - “ ABusiness Proposal for Mel” being the upload title of 24 Carat. The description says Henry regenerates into “the Doctor himself David Tennant” which muddies the waters further. Given his accent and costume I’m saying he’s a meta fictional 14.
Either way my point is is that the YouTube upload releases the filmed segment as a standalone minisode removed from the live show. As per the Music of the Spheres precedent the non live version should be the scope of the article thus the live scenes - which aren’t really part of it - should be ignored when it comes to validity. 81.108.82.15talk to me 22:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
Speaking of the online upload, why was my note about the soundtrack being replaced removed? Those are clearly not the same tracks. WaltK ☎ 22:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
P.S. Valid? No. Absolutely not. WaltK ☎

Clearly 14, there's clear authorial intent. I'm pretty suspicious of validity, but not completely against, I think Rule 4 asks for a bit more than we have, given the large number of Doctor Who (in-universe) references we've found over the years. Najawin ☎ 00:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I feel the general urge to make it invalid comes from a place of it not fitting into continuity. That said the official YouTube shorts upload calls Henry the 9.5th Doctor. 81.108.82.15talk to me 00:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

And in that case, we should change Lenny Henry (in-universe) to 9.5th Doctor or Nine-and-a-Half Doctor. Danniesen ☎ 00:58, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree about the rename to 9.5th Doctor as per the Fugitive Doctor and Unbound Doctor precedent. It also avoids a dab and tells the reader that the character is more than just a meta-fictional Henry. 81.108.82.15talk to me 01:15, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
If this rename happens, we could be cheeky and connect him to Seventh Doctor (The Lenny Henry Show), confirming them to be the same. Bad side of this is that it brings into question which number Doctor Tennant is playing in this particular sketch even though we know he’s the Fourteenth on Doctor Who. Also there’s the fact that he is literally referred to as "Mr. Henry" and "Lenny" in the sketch itself. Danniesen ☎ 01:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Ah, just looked into this, because I was confused. The "actual youtube upload" (as we have traditionally used that term) does not use the term "9.5 Doctor". The youtube short has the title "Meet the 9.5th Doctor... Sir Lenny Henry 👀". It's 20 seconds shorter than the full video, and doesn't have a description.
...I think this is the first time we've ever had to discuss a youtube short when it comes to discussing an upload. My gut instinct is telling me that it's just the social media person titling the short, because shorts are, to the best of my knowledge, not something that the upper management are doing a ton of oversight yet on. I can ask someone who works in social media though, if you want? Najawin ☎ 08:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Alright, I'll step in and resolve this (pending new evidence) before this turns into a Whole Thing…
This definitely shouldn't be valid, barring any Rule 4 quotes along the lines of "glimpse into a parallel universe" or future Rule-4-by-Proxy situation. It's ostentatious about how much it doesn't fit into the univ
Marketing is marketing; we should definitely go with 9.5th Doctor for Henry unless a different name is used in more official sources. With the YouTube short being a clip from the full episode (short as that may be), this is in line with us using "companion support group" based on the YouTube channel's upload of the clip from The Power of the Doctor to title the page even though it is somewhat dubious that the name came from Chris Chibnall.
Within the minisode, Tennant is certainly playing the Doctor (he uses his English accent instead of his natural Scottish one), as distinct from his natural Scottish one, but it's somewhat unclear what Doctor, given the 9.5th marketing vs. the Fourteenth Doctor costume and catchphrase. Again pending a more solid quote or marketing elemnt being found, given that in real-world terms it's clearly meant to scan as some version of Fourteen, and the shortness of the short, I think he should be kept in the BTS section of Fourteenth Doctor for the time being (and go on Fourteenth Doctor/Non-valid sources if User:NateBumber's current "Subpages 2.0" proposal passes), but pipe-switched to simply "the Doctor"/"a new Doctor"/etc. on the story page and relevant {{invalid}}-tagged in-universe pages.
As for the name of the short itself, I think for the time being the YouTube title (even though it may not entirely match the diegesis) will have to do. The Twitter upload's "Who is Lenny Henry regenerating into??" is more of a description than a title (even if we've used such things as titles in the absence of a YouTube upload to give a more solid name), and besides, YouTube titles should generally be favoured, as it's more primarily a video platform. A redirect at the Facebook title can of course be retained.
Oh, and this should not be linked up to the Lenny Henry Show sketch unless we're given some BTS reason to think the link was intended; this is no different from the REG Tenth Doctor vs the REG Ninth Doctor. They can be mentioned in each other's BTS sections, of course. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 08:48, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Just gonna throw my two cents in here, but I don't think Tennant's playing 14 here. From what this talkpage is showing, it sound more like the actor having a laugh with the lore, akin to the Graham Norton regeneration skit from his show when Smith and Tennant quested starred to promote the 50th. Also, since Henry is being billed as the 9.5th Doctor, it seems more logical that Tennant is playing some "what if" Tenth Doctor more than 14. BananaClownMan ☎ 09:22, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
He literally says "I know these teeth". I think we can reasonably infer a prior Tennant regeneration., which just makes the entire thing very bizarre, if we're interpreting the shorts name as being accurate. Najawin ☎ 09:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
This discussion is meant to be resolved, for the record, in the absence of new evidence. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 09:59, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Eurovision Dalek Audition

This sketch was previously covered in the Notes of this page, but was removed, with the claim it should have its own page. And I do agree with that. If anyone want to make a page on it, they can watch it here: [LINK REMOVED]. Danniesen ☎ 00:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Tardis:Video policy doubly forbids us to link to that video — you're not supposed to link to videos in the first place, as opposed to embedding them, but also, this isn't even an official upload. (It also seems not to be the complete thing, though I may be wrong.) But yes, this should have its own page. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 08:48, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
The lack of an official upload was the primary reason I didn't simply make the page myself: we were still trying to debate what this page should be called, and I didn't want to confuse things further by making something like Untitled (Red Nose Day 2023 sketch). WaltK ☎ 16:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Rename

I want to make a pitch that this page be renamed to "Meet the 9.5th Comic Relief Host… Sir Lenny Henry". I'll bullet point my reasons below.

  • Tennant is playing the Doctor. English accent, costume, promotion and notably "I know these teeth" refers to a previous Tennant incarnation. Therefore the title is misleading. Yes I know it's official, but it's a clickbait YouTube title. See "A Business Proposal for Mel" is actually 24 Carat. The YouTube titles often have bad capitalisation and a catchy title. They're made for clicks. Thing is it's also... incorrect (see when the official Doctor Who youtube channel uploaded the Curator scene as "Eleventh Doctor meets the Fourth Doctor". If that was a minisode it'd have the wiki article would have that title (well they've renamed it anyway).) Lenny Henry regenerates into the Fourteenth Doctor and the page is misleading to the individuals who want to research.
  • You're probably thinking "we can't not use the official youtube caption" - well we can as we can use the facebook title "Meet the 9.5th Comic Relief Host… Sir Lenny Henry" and it feels much more like a title. It probably is THE title.
  • For example the Dalek Comic Relief sketch was released on YouTube as "Graham Norton Judges Star Studded Eurovision Auditions" whereas the official title was "2023: The Eurovision Audition Tapes". The latter not a clickbait title on YouTube.
  • Point is let's rename it to the Facebook title. It has the words "Lenny Henry" and "Comic Relief" so it's a better search name. Facebook titles aren't usually clickbait. This title isn't inaccurate and doesn't mislead the audience. 9.5th is also a reference to the Henry Doctor's numbering and a play on 10. It's just better. How can we convince readers this is the Doctor when the title is telling them the other.

Thanks for reading

81.108.82.15talk to me 02:14, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely not. No one's denying that Tennant is playing the Doctor here to some degree (see the first item on this talk page), but the official title is still the official title even if it's wrong. We're not here to "convince readers" of anything, just report the facts; if a title is confusing and doesn't reflect the story that much, well, so be it. Daleks' Invasion Earth 2150 A.D. is a grammatical nightmare and some later sources like home video releases tried to make the punctuation make more sense, but we still stuck with the on-screen title.
If we had something that was absolutely, 100% the real production title, on a level with 24 Carat, that'd be something else, of course. But the Facebook title is just as much a clickbaity video title as the YouTube one if not moreso (the "9.5th Comic Relief Host" thing is just as much of a lazy, confusing reach as conflating the Curator with the Fourth Doctor; as you mentioned, Tennant is playing sort-of-Fourteen, not sort-of-Ten!). You just seem to like it better because it breaks the fourth wall slightly less. That is absolutely no reason to break with the precedent of defaulting to the YouTube title.
We shall not be doing this rename unless more solid evidence of a more official name than the YouTube one (like BBC iPlayer or a production document) is found. This is an administrative decision. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 02:19, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
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