Talk:The Vanquishers (TV story)

Companions

Okay, let's not turn this into an edit war; User:BananaClownMan and I disagree on whether Inston-Vee Vinder should be counted as a companion. Following his removal from the field (alongside that of several other, in my own opinion more debatable characters), I said that —

Vinder was officially Invited Into The TARDIS some episodes ago; he's definitely a companion hereUser:Scrooge MacDuck

BCM has now removed him again with the rationale:

Except Vinder spends little time with the Doctor and the TARDIS in this story, his role not being dissimilar to the Children of Time in "The Stolen Earth"; they contribute to the Doctor's efforts, but in an independent fashionUser:BananaClownMan

My answer to this is that Yaz and Dan also largely contribute in a Children-of-Timeish fashion; the Doctor is having her own adventure (three of them, in fact) and Yaz and Dan spend a significant amount of time with Jericho and Williamson, rather than as the Doctor's sidekick. Heck, Dan needs reinviting into the TARDIS at the end, if that's not proof that he wasn't really in the companion role anymore up till that point, I don't know what is!

Thus: since we obviously want to list Dan and Yaz anyway, I believe we should also list Vinder.

Thoughts, BCM, anyone? Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:10, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I have to say that I think Yaz and Dan are the only companions this series. Vinder is no more a companion than Jericho, Claire, Bel, and the rest. RadMatter ☎ 23:14, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I'd have to agree that I don't think Vinder is a companion. Yaz and Dan aren't that involved with the Doctor in this story, admittedly, but they're her regular travelling companions so I wouldn't say it's quite the same situation. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 23:17, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed with Rad and Jack. I wouldn't have called Dan a companion either if he hadn't joined the TARDIS at the end (although he was always going to). From a marketing perspective, I recall Vinder being introduced as a recurring character while Dan was introduced as a companion straight off the bat. So we know the intent as well. Danochy ☎ 01:32, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Vinder was invited into the TARDIS, but so was (for example) Abby (Oxygen), and they both probably travelled in it the same amount. I think if she's not a companion, then Vinder shouldn't be. CharlieCon ☎ 09:28, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

The COVID poster

Should this really be classed as a production error? I know the crew said the series wouldn't have any overt references to the pandemic, but I feel that a throwaway reference like this doesn't really contridict that. WaltK ☎ 00:14, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps? I haven't seen the episode so I don't know the details.

But, it is worth mentioning that background details, such as posters, have been treated as production errors even though they were probably deliberate, such as the Doctor Who Exhibition posters in TV: Everything Changes, which were far too prominent to be an error.

Epsilon📯 📂

07:52, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

So I just skimmed the episode to find the poster in question and... yeah, I'm not even sure this should count as narrative information. A banner depicting the "Hands, Face, Space" mantra can be seen in a shopping mall during the "Sontarans have taken over Liverpool" montage (at around the 3:36 mark) but I legit didn't even spot it at first; as in, I skimmed until I got to the shot, looked as hard as I could, figured "maybe they're talking about another shopping mall shot later in the episode cause I sure don't see anything in this one", skimmed the rest of the episode for another shot, came up with nothing, went back to the initial shot, and absolutely strained my eyes trying to see every fuzzy little detail until; "ooooohhhh now I see it", by which point I'm thinking "you really have to squint to see the words, and there's certainly no indication in-universe of its relation to COVID, so what even is the point?"

This just about falls into the same league of absurdity as "cateloguing and giving individual pages to every single DVD and video that can be just barely identified if you squint real hard on the shelves of the video store in Random Shoes". WaltK ☎ 19:28, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

The "Hands, Face, Space" banner in question. (TV: The Vanquishers)

I'd say it's pretty readable, at least for the first 2 words (with the third being fairly readable, as well). Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 18:03, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I think "Space" is speculation. "Hands" and "Face" are clear though. Najawin ☎ 18:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't. Many of the of the letters are identifiable, except maybe the "e" at the end but it seems like pedantry to say "oh well it could say "spacl" or something.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

19:47, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I can clearly make out the "S". "P" could be an "F" easily, "A" an "H", "C" an "O". I'm reminded of Talk:Doctor Who Magazine (periodical) by this conversation, lol. Najawin ☎ 20:26, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I must be getting old because the entire picture is too blurry to make anything out. Shambala108 ☎ 23:58, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

State of the Universe Post-Flux

Now I know this is a rather controversial topic, but it's one that is constantly brought up...

Was the Universe destroyed? No... it was not.

As we know, in Doctor Who: Flux, the Flux rips through the universe, destroying planets, suns and galaxies. However what most miss, is that in 'Chapter 1: The Halloween Apocalypse' at the end when the Flux barrels towards the TARDIS, the TARDIS stopped the first Flux event! This isn't actually said until 'Chapter 5: Survivors of the Flux' at Division, when Tecteun criticises the Doctor's interference in their Universe shutdown strategy

Tecteun: Precisely. Which is why we engineered the Flux, shut the universe down and you within it. Except even then you interfere. Disrupting the Flux, just as it came into existence. Throwing yourself and a Tardis in front of it.

Stating that between chapters 1 and 2, the first Flux event was halted, hence the generation of a second and final wave!

So in episodes 2-5 we are seeing the fallout of the Flux, the confusion that the universe has been thrown into. Including Daleks, Cybermen and Sontarans fighting for control, refugees of the Flux seeking sanctuary, and the timestorm erasing people from existance!

Then in episode 5 we are told that a second wave of the Flux is being generated, a wave that begins towards the end of Chapter 6. Throughout Chapter 6 we see the Sontarans and the Grand Serpent preparing for this event, using humans to predict where and when it will begin. Thanks to Claire Brown's psychic abilities, they locate this area in Deep Space, and instantly leave Earth, reading to strike against their prey.

What is important to note here, is that the second Flux event doesn't destroy anything of importance, only the War battalions of the Sontaran, Dalek and Cyber empires, before it was absorbed by the Passenger form, claiming one final victim (the Passenger form itself).

Slight side-tangent here, but the Passenger being the solution was actually foreshadowed from Chapter 5! We see throughout Flux that the Ravagers are the opposite to the Doctor, in their moral code, their beliefs, their regenerative powers, but what they do have in common with the Doctor, is a bigger on the inside life-form! So, the point I'm trying to make, is that in Chapter 2 the Flux is prevented by the TARDIS, and given the opposite to the TARDIS is the Passenger, the Passenger form was the obvious candidate to absorb the Flux!

Anyway, side-tangent over. Back to the main point of discussion, which is: The Only part of the Universe that was destroyed, was what the first Flux event destroyed in Chapter 1!

Flux has 3 main volumes Vol. 1 - The First Flux Event - Chapter 1 Vol. 2 - The Fallout of the first Flux event - Chapters 2-5 Vol. 3 - The Second Flux Event - Chapter 6 Epilogue - The Dalek Execution of the Doctor - Eve of the Daleks

(I felt like adding the Epilogue, cause why not)

It's nowhere near "the entire universe" as many believe, it's not even a quarter! So, how much is it? Well, it's never specified, but given what we are shown in Chapter 5, I would guess, no more than 10% of the universe was destroyed!

In Chapter 5, the Doctor is brought back to Division, where we learn that the Flux was engineered to destroy the universe on account of the Doctor's tireless persecution and hunt for Division. Division became wary of the potential universal revolution they might face due to the Doctor's "viral" influance. However following the first Flux event, the Doctor still was able to rise up against it, purely by accident! So, in order to avoid this, Division removes the Doctor from the universe, separating her from her main source of power, her companions (hence "Power of the Doctor" being a story about companions from the last 59 years re-uniting to face off against the big three (four if you count CyberMasters)

But while at Division, the Doctor gets a rundown on Division, more importantly where they are stationed, we are shown a hologram of

Tecteun: ...the universe as you know it. Universe One, if you like.

File:The universe as the Doctor knows it.jpg

The universe as The Doctor knows it

This hologram only shows a section of the universe, but it's enough to understand what the original universe looked like.

Then, later in the episode, Division Ood shows us the universe as it at that time looked like. Very, very similar to what the original universe looked like, but with Flux particles on the edge of the universe. In the script for the episode, this hologram has been described as

The Ood looks at her -- blinks a couple of times again -- and then activates a map which appears as a hologram in the air. A black mass is moving slowly across the map of tiny stars and planets.

File:The Universe Post-Flux.jpg

The Universe Post-Flux

I believe that this "black mass" is what the flux particles are here, representing what has been destroyed!

The compression that is mentioned, is the rearrangement of the planets, galaxies and superclusters, pushing them closer together before the Flux actually begins, in addition to rearranging the universe so the Earth can be the centre, so the Earth can be Tecteun's bargaining chip!

Lastly, Division Ood, specifically states that:

The first Flux event destroyed many galaxies.

So all that is destroyed is "many galaxies", a number that based on the visual cues via hologram, seems to be around the 10% mark.

Anyway, thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. DoctorWhoHugh ☎ 01:09, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't think your interpretation is correct. Survivors of the Flux contains this exchange:

Doctor: "Sorry, which part of the universe is this?"

Ood: "All of it."

Doctor: "No!? There's nowhere near enough of it."

Certainly the Universe wasn't entirely destroyed (because the First Flux Event was interrupted and the Final Flux Event barely happened), but what the First Event destroyed is clearly much more than 10% of the universe. The Doctor would hardly mistake 90% of the universe or so for a "part" of the universe, or say that it was nowhere near enough to be the whole of the universe. It sounds like it can't be much more than a third. Of course, the universe is still huge enough for "a third of it or less" to still be extremely huge. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:27, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, I just wanted to say thanks for being so respectful btw! Sometimes on line (twitter specifically) this fandom can be... anything but! Back to the main topic of discussion, I do get what you are saying, but like I said, the universe had been rearranged, so of course she wouldn't recognise it. and the Division Ood said "many galaxies", if it was over 50% he would've said "most galaxies", meaning it's at least 50% remaining, but the hologram clearly shows at a push 80% remaining. If you are shown 80% of the Mona Lisa, and told it's the entire painting, the response would be along the lines of "How much of the Mona Lisa is this? no, there's nowhere near enough of it". You are right though that even if 30 percent survived it would still be more than enough, but I genuinely believe that it's around the 80% mark.

I actually really liked how they didn't restore the universe, it brought back a sense of stakes, and following up this special with one where the Doctor is hunted, makes it feel less like a "oh that section of the story is over" and more like a "that's a real thing that happened" But that's just my opinion on it.

Back to the primary topic, essentially, I'd argue that at the bare... BARE minimum, 50% remains, in all likelihood I personally think it would be more than that. DoctorWhoHugh ☎ 01:09, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

"Most" is a subset of "many". Anything that's "most" is by definition "many", so saying "many" does not rule out "most". Nothing you've said is present in the text, it's interpretation and thus can't be on the wiki. My interpretation is that the hologram clearly shows that 0% of the original universe is remaining. But it's not in the text, so we don't say that. Najawin ☎ 01:18, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't know anyone who would say "many" when referring to "most". I think when we are getting caught up in the meanings of specific words it's kind of pointless. The clear intention of the episode is that the universe is for the most part still there. The main focus of the Flux isn't so much the Flux itself, but rather how the remaining universe re-builds and adapts, with some civilisations predicting a second final wave, and intending to take advantage of the mass destruction that will follow.

I don't know how it can be 0%, we see a ton of it in that hologram. And the hologram showing the original universe proves that those large collections aren't galaxies, they are most likely superclusters. But hey, that's your interpretation and I respect it, even though I don't quite understand it :)DoctorWhoHugh ☎ 02:09, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Divining intent is not something we attempt to do on this wiki usually. And, well, since the universe is infinite, any finite amount remaining is 0%. Again, just not really the place for it. Najawin ☎ 01:48, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Hold up, since when is the universe infinite? There's no such consensus in real-world astrophysics as far as I know, and neither is it a… er, universally-ascribed trait of the DWU. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 09:04, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

It's not the real world consensus, as such, but it's the predominant view. The standard model of cosmology holds that the universe is flat, though there's some noticeable disagreement. (And there's a decent amount of evidence that the universe is either flat or close to being flat. In part it's this "close to being" that causes the disagreement. If the universe isn't flat, its curvature is very very small.) Now, flat doesn't logically entail infinite, (eg, the 3 torus) but it is the most likely model. It's one of those things where it's hard to judge without a survey, but it's probably the majority view in cosmology, even if it's not scientific consensus in the way that, say, the existence of the Higgs Boson is. Najawin ☎ 20:14, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I was under the impression that space time was curved? Not to mention that infinity can be finite if that makes sense. It depends on how you define infinity, is infinity everything (in which case it is finite) or is infinity limitless? Anastasia Cousins ☎ 23:25, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Space time definitely has local curvature. The current "best guess" is that globally it does not. (That is to say, if we were to consider a triangle constructed by beams of light over some region of space time, taking the limit as the mass in the surrounding and enclosed area goes to 0, and the length of the sides of the triangle go to infinity, the angles would sum to π/2. Well, that's in 2 dimensions, Gaussian curvature. It's the higher dimensional generalization of that, Riemann curvature. Not really my area of expertise.) And I'm defining infinity in the proper way here, not finite. I'm not saying that ~∃x st x ∉ universe. That's a wildly different statement, and doesn't really correspond to what people mean when they say "infinite". Najawin ☎ 23:49, 13 January 2023 (UTC)