Forum:Temporary forums/Subpage policy: Difference between revisions

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''Draft 0.03, cobbled together from miscellaneous talk pages without regard for tonal consistency.''
{{archive}}[[Category:Policy changers|{{SUBPAGENAME}}]]
== Proposal ==
{{big toc}}
For a long time, the [[User:NateBumber#Policy|"Policy"]] section on my user page has listed a broad array of my concerns and suggestions. Over the months and years, I've come to realize that many of these could be addressed by a singular proposal: the establishment of '''a proper use of subpages on this wiki.'''
 
Below is my proposal for what [[Tardis:Subpage policy]] could look like. How closely this resembles the final text is up to our admins, but this draft expresses the core ideas which I think such a policy should encapsulate.
 
<div class="tech">{{summ|When a page grows too big, consider splitting it into one or more pages or subpages.}}
{{sc|T:SUBPAGE|T:SPLIT}}
 
=== What is a subpage? ===
[[Doctor Who Magazine/1985]] is an example: because of the slash in the page name, it's a subpage of [[Doctor Who Magazine]], so there's a link to that page right at the top, just below the title. This is great for navigation! Fandom's Editor Experience team explains,
{{simplequote|Google understands that subpages have a distinct parent relationship with the base page. […] These subpages have a natural method to get back to the base article: they're linked from the top of the page!|[[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Short and long pages on Fandom|Short and long pages on Fandom]]}}
Additionally, a subpage can also be linked to from its parent page with only a partial title: if you're on [[Twelfth Doctor]], the link <code><nowiki>[[/List of appearances]]</nowiki></code> will take you to [[Twelfth Doctor/List of appearances]]. It's even more powerful than the pipe trick!
 
If subpages are so useful, why aren't they used on wikis more widely? In 2001, a lengthy debate on Wikipedia resulted in a new rule: {{w|Wikipedia:Do not use subpages|do not use subpages.}} This was to avoid fights like whether to create [[History/Algeria]] or [[Algeria/History]]. Because subpages had provided a home for material about fictional universes – for instance, [[Sonic screwdriver|Doctor Who/Sonic screwdriver]] – this presaged a slow exodus of that {{w|Wikipedia:Fancruft|"fancruft"}} content away from Wikipedia.
 
Tardis Data Core was born from that exodus, and ever since we've said [[Tardis:we're Wikipedia's evil twin|we're Wikipedia's evil twin]]. This means we're free to reconsider Wikipedia's decisions with fresh eyes, including the rule about subpages. The conclusion is that our finite set of standardised section names means we can avoid the confusion that caused Wikipedia's ban in the first place!
 
=== How big is too big? ===
According to the Editor Experience team,
{{simplequote|There's no one ideal length of an article; it should cover all the important and noteworthy points without being so lengthy that readers lose attention. While there is both [https://buffer.com/resources/the-ideal-length-of-everything-online-according-to-science clear] and [https://www.clickseed.com/ideal-article-length/ unclear] research on the topic, an informational article [https://torquemag.io/2018/04/optimal-content-length/ should likely take about 7 minutes to read], and be somewhere between 1000 and 2500 words (not bytes). There are legitimate reasons for individual articles with 4000–5000 words of prose if they engage the reader and stay on-topic; beyond 5000 words, contributors should review a body of text for opportunities to summarize and break out potentially independent text into new articles.|[[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Articles on Fandom|Articles on Fandom]]}}
 
A softer version of this guideline was established as a local rule in [[Thread:264489#9]]. When an article egregiously exceeds these length standards, rather than flat-out deleting the extra material, split the page into subpages or separate pages instead. While Fandom's above guidelines describe the best standards for every article on wikis, length is less of a concern on subpages; we can assume that a reader who clicks through to [[Tenth Doctor/Biography]] is ready for a much deeper level of detail than the summary in [[Tenth Doctor#Biography]].
 
=== When to use a subpage ===
Subpages are usually only meant to be linked to from their root page and navigation templates. To use the example mentioned above, [[Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances]] is [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances|only linked to]] from [[Twelfth Doctor]] and {{tlx|Doctor appearances}}, making it an obvious candidate for a subpage.
 
Subpages should be named after section headers, usually those with headings formatted with <nowiki>==</nowiki>, such as "Biography" or "Plot". Subpages should never have in-universe titles: for instance, if the subsection [[Twelfth Doctor#Continued adventures with Clara]] were deemed too big, we would move it to a section on [[Twelfth Doctor/Biography]], ''not'' [[Twelfth Doctor/Continued adventures with Clara]].


''Topics: subpages; page length; relevancy; spoilers''
Here's a sample of other potential subpage names:
* [[BBC New Series Adventures/Covers]]
* [[The Daleks' Master Plan (TV story)/Plot]]
* [[Twelfth Doctor/Appearances]]
* [[The Doctor's TARDIS/Gallery]]
* [[Sixth Doctor/Other realities]]
* [[Ace/Non-valid sources]]
* [[David Tennant/Spoilers]] (if we ever change [[T:SPOIL]]!)


== Introduction ==
To prevent the unsustainable proliferation of subpage types that Wikipedia faced, a wholly new type of subpage should be discussed on the talk page beforehand. For instance, if you want to create [[Series 9 (Doctor Who)/Promotion]] for information about trailers and interviews promoting that series, first you should compare your idea against existing precedent. If [[/Promotion]] subpages already exist in other places, you can go ahead and create your page! Otherwise, you should propose it on [[Talk:Series 9 (Doctor Who)]], link to that proposal on [[Tardis talk:Subpage policy]], and allow [[Tardis:Administrators|an administrator]] to conclude the discussion before your split.
For a long time, I've had a [[User:NateBumber#Policy|"Policy"]] section on my user page listing a broad array of concerns and suggestions that I have. It's taken me a long time to realize, but many of these could be addressed by a singular policy: the establishment of '''a proper use of subpages on this wiki.'''


I do not believe forums are necessary to enact this policy! [[Tardis:Changing policy]] specifies that the forums – which we have been without since [https://tardis.fandom.com/f/p/4400000000003151756/r/4400000000010784942 November 2020] – are required for changing policy. However, rather than ''changing'' how we do things (besides renaming some purely marginal pages such as lists of appearances to take full advantage of wiki formatting), this proposal merely ''adds'' another option, one which doesn't detract from any current policies or precedent. My hope is that this proposal will bring us closer to FANDOM best practices and our goal of serving readers.
=== When not to use a subpage ===
Alternately, if you think some material represents a self-contained idea that other articles might want to reference as well, consider splitting it without using a subpage. For instance, when conflicting accounts of the Doctor's origins on [[First Doctor#Life on Gallifrey]] became too unwieldy, I created [[The Doctor's early life]]. Other examples include pages for specific arcs, like [[Exile on Earth]], or pages for specific events, like [[Operation Mannequin]]. This is an art, not a science, and experienced users should use their best judgment to decide how to group content into logical topics.


== Prior art ==
Here are some examples of when ''not'' to use a subpage:
* [[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Short and long pages on Fandom|"Short and long pages on Fandom"]]
* [[Third Doctor/Exile on Earth]] – instead create [[Third Doctor/Biography]] or [[Exile on Earth]]
* {{w|WP:SPLIT}}
* [[The Doctor/Sonic screwdriver]] – instead create [[The Doctor's sonic screwdriver]]
* {{w|WP:SPINOUT}}
* [[Aliases of the Doctor/Theta Sigma]] – instead create [[Theta Sigma]]
* {{w|WP:SPINOFF}}
* [[Last Great Time War/Origins]] – instead create [[Origins of the Last Great Time War]]
* [[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Articles on Fandom#Sections and Headings|"Articles on Fandom"]]
* [[The Master/Missy]] – instead create [[Missy]]!
* [[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Categories and Navigation on Fandom#To be clear|"Categories and Navigation on Fandom"]]


== Proposal ==
=== Moving material ===
When a page grows too big, consider splitting it into multiple pages or subpages.
Once you've identified a lengthy section and the new page or subpage that will hold it, cut the section's contents and paste it to the new location. Include any subheadings, images, galleries, footnotes, and infoboxes that are inside that section. Subheadings should be adjusted upwards: for instance, each <nowiki>===</nowiki> subheading should become a <nowiki>==</nowiki>.
 
Look through [[Special:WhatLinksHere]] to update any redirects to the sections you've moved. Similarly, look through the original page's templates and "Behind the scenes" bullet points for any which are more relevant to the new page. One of the biggest advantages of subpages is that they provide more room for not just ordinary coverage but also specific templates and sections. Subpages like [[Tenth Doctor/Appearance]] could have their own "Behind the scenes" sections discussing real-world information related to the topic.
 
Most importantly, [[Tardis:Plagiarism]] requires that you credit the content's original authors per [https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ CC BY-SA 3.0]. When you're moving material to a subpage, it's usually obvious where it came from, but you should still link to the original page in your edit summary so later readers know where to look for the edit history.
 
=== Writing a summary ===
After moving material to a new page or subpage, you have to fill the gap on the root page. The Editor Experience team explains the <code><nowiki>{{Main|/Subpage}}</nowiki> + Summary</code> method in this way:
{{simplequote|When a basic article becomes long enough, it could have long chunks that could reasonably be split into their own independent articles. […] The base article could then replace a long section with a spoiler-free summary with the most important points, linked by a context-link hatnote above it (such as <code><nowiki>{{Main|/Subpage}}</nowiki></code>).|[[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Categories and Navigation on Fandom#To be clear|Categories and navigation on Fandom]]}}


=== Subpages ===
In other words, replace the copied text with a shorter summary of the new subpage's contents and a {{tlx|main}} link. In exactly the same way that a lead paragraph summarises the contents of its page, this summary should give a broad-strokes overview of the subpage's contents, with a particular emphasis on the details most relevant to readers. <div style="border-radius: 3px; background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 2.5px white; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">Start of Contested Section!</div> A general rule of thumb is to mention all ''major'' information as well as any ''notable minor'' details. The line between "major" and "minor" is up to editors' discretion.<br><br>
Subpages are usually only meant to be linked to from their root page and navigation templates. For instance, [[Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances]] is [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances|only linked to]] from [[Twelfth Doctor]] and {{tlx|Doctor appearances}}, making it an obvious candidate for a subpage. This is the <code><nowiki>{{Main|/subpage}}</nowiki> + Summary</code> method. Subpages should be named after top-level sections, which have headings formatted with <nowiki>==</nowiki>, such as "Biography" or "Plot". There should never be in-universe subpages: for instance, if the section [[Twelfth Doctor#Continued adventures with Clara]] were deemed too big, we would move it to [[Twelfth Doctor/Biography#Continued adventures with Clara]], ''not'' [[Twelfth Doctor/Continued adventures with Clara]].


Alternately, [[User:FishTank|FishTank]] [[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Short and long pages on Fandom|suggests]], "A character's narrative in a television season could be placed into &quot;Character/Season 1&quot; with detailed plot points and spoilers in that article." There's an appealing logic to this as well, and it lines up with our current use of subpages at [[Doctor Who Magazine/1985]] et al.
For instance, take [[Tenth Doctor#Biography]]. If it were moved to a subpage, the summary left behind might cite all of the Tenth Doctor and [[Martha Jones]]' major adventures, such as their televised ones, but not ''all'' of their minor adventures, such as [[PROSE]]: ''[[Wetworld (novel)|Wetworld]]'' or [[COMIC]]: ''[[The Skrawn Inheritance (comic story)|The Skrawn Inheritance]]''. Similarly, it would mention the Tenth Doctor's companions [[Gabby Gonzalez]] and [[Cindy Wu]] from the multi-year [[COMIC]]: ''[[Doctor Who: The Tenth Doctor]]'' arc, but maybe not minor companions such as [[Emily Parr]] or [[Rok Ma]].


=== Separate pages ===
[[File:Doctor Who The End of Time - Christmas Special Preview HD - Children in Need 2009 - BBC|right|thumb|The [[Tenth Doctor]]'s [[lei]] outfit. ([[TV]]: ''[[The End of Time (TV story)|The End of Time]]'')]]
If you want to move material off of a page and think it might be relevant to or linkable from other pages as well, consider whether it would be possible to split without using subpages. This is an art, not a science, and experienced users should use their best judgment to decide how to group content together into logical topics. For instance, I created [[The Doctor's early life]] and [[The Master's early life]] to cover conflicting accounts of their origins when [[First Doctor#Life on Gallifrey]] and [[The Master#Early life and exploits]] became too unwieldy. Other examples include pages for broadly-defined eras in the Doctor's life, such as [[Exile on Earth]], and pages for specific events, like [[Operation Mannequin]] for the events of ''[[Rose (TV story)|Rose]]''. Following this principle, the solution to the length of [[The Master]] is splitting it into pages for incarnations, ''not'' simply hiding material in [[The Master/Biography]] or "incarnation subpages" like [[The Master/War Master]].
[[Tenth Doctor#Appearance]] is another lengthy section. It details each of the Tenth Doctor's various clothing and hairstyle changes. If this information were moved to a subpage, the summary would describe his ''major'' outfits (for instance, those worn for a whole television episode or an entire comics run or Big Finish boxset) and any particularly ''notable minor'' outfits (such as his lei from [[TV]]: ''[[The End of Time (TV story)|The End of Time]]'') while reserving a more detailed breakdown and minor single-appearance costumes for the subpage. <div style="border-radius: 3px; background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 2.5px white; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">End of Contested Section</div><br><br>


=== Summaries ===
Note the Editor Experience team's emphasis on a summary being "spoiler-free". While this may not be possible in some circumstances, ideally a new fan should be able to read the summary of a character's biography without having the experience of the stories being totally spoiled for them. For example, a summary of [[Twelfth Doctor/Biography]] might mention that his travels with Bill, Nardole, and Missy concluded in [[TV]]: ''[[The Doctor Falls (TV story)|The Doctor Falls]]'' during an encounter with {{Simm|n=an old enemy}}, without explicitly spelling out that enemy's identity or the specific details of Bill's fate. Like a lead paragraph, a well-written summary should "lead" its readers to want to learn more, whether that means clicking through to the subpage or actually experiencing the stories in question.</div>
After creating a subpage, link to it from the root page with {{tlx|main}} and replace the copied text with a shorter summary of the information, emphasising details which are most likely notable to the [[not we]]. In practice, this usually means TV information, although it can also include especially notable content from other media.


Fandom's Editor Experience [[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Short and long pages on Fandom|suggests]], "The base article could then replace a long section with a spoiler-free summary with the most important points."
=== Applications ===
There are many problems that this proposal will solve. Below I discuss those problems and the motivations for this proposal.


The same principles apply to the writing of lead paragraphs: you shouldn't ''need'' Ctrl+F or a lot of time to find the most important details about a topic. As an example, last night I wanted a quick refresher on Stanley Kubrick, and by skimming the first few paragraphs of {{w|Stanley Kubrick|his Wikipedia page}} on my phone, it was trivially easy to find his death date and most notable works within seconds. In contrast, right now you can't even answer the question "what episode did the Twelfth Doctor regenerate in?" without scrolling '''277th<ref>Should this "th" be here? [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:09, 20 September 2022 (UTC)</ref> paragraphs''' down [[Twelfth Doctor]]!
==== Subpage-like pages ====
Many articles on this wiki are already written like subpages. Our [[:Category:Lists of appearances|1000+ lists of appearances]] are perfect examples of subpages in both purpose and execution:
# when a page section (the infobox list of appearances) grows too large and unwieldy, it's moved to a separate page;
# the new page is titled in reference to the core page ([[Character name - list of appearances]]); and
# the core page retains a summary of the most important information (first mention, first appearance).
The only problem is that … well, they're not actually subpages! We've been using a dash instead of a slash for ''no reason''. [[Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances]], to name of one of many, should be moved to [[Twelfth Doctor/List of appearances]].


== Applications ==
These aren't our only subpage-like pages. We also have [[:Category:Galleries|almost 100 "galleries"]] which function just like subpages; most of them are even already linked from story or series pages with {{tlx|main}}. Their form should follow their function: [[BBC New Series Adventures covers]] should be moved to [[BBC New Series Adventures/Covers]] without hesitation. Standardising gallery subpages and creating them for major characters and concepts will also rescue our thousands of orphaned images.
=== Subpage-like pages ===
Many articles on this wiki are already written like subpages. Our [[:Category:Lists of appearances|1000+ lists of appearances]] are perfect examples of subpages in both purpose and execution – except that they're not actually subpages! [[Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances]], to name of one of many, should be moved to [[Twelfth Doctor/List of appearances]]. Similarly, we have [[:Category:Galleries|almost 100 "galleries"]], most of which are already linked to from story or series pages with {{tlx|main}}. [[BBC New Series Adventures covers]] should be moved to [[BBC New Series Adventures/Covers]] without hesitation.


You might ask, why would it be better to put these articles as subpages rather than the status quo? What are subpages, anyway? You're on one! Because of the slashes I've built into the title of this page, it's a subpage of both [[User:NateBumber]] and [[User:NateBumber/Sandbox]], and as a result there are links to those pages at the top of this one, just below the title. This is great for navigation. A subpage can also be linked to from its parent page via only partial urls: if you're on [[BBC New Series Adventures]], the link <nowiki>[[/Covers]]</nowiki> will take you to [[BBC New Adventures Series Adventures/Covers]]. It's even more powerful than the pipe trick!
As another example, consider [[Aliases of the Doctor]]. The vast majority of links to this page come through redirects to specific sections, like [[Theta Sigma]], which is already a strong hint that the page should be chopped up! According to the principles in the policy proposal above, we should follow the {{tlx|main}} method to split the article into separate pages for major individual aliases, such as [[Time's Champion]] and [[Time Lord Victorious]], and then move the remaining overview page to a subpage like [[The Doctor/Name and aliases]]. This precedent will also unlock improvements for many pages which shoehorn all of their topics' once-used alternate names into their first sentences, like [[Chris Cwej's Superiors]]. Instead, the lead should only mention the two or three most prominent names, while the rest can go in a "Name and aliases" section.


Fandom's Editor Experience team explains,
These are just a few examples of low-hanging fruit unlocked by this subpage proposal. I'm willing to bet that there are many more out there!
{{quote|Google understands that subpages have a distinct parent relationship with the base page. […] These subpages have a natural method to get back to the base article: they're linked from the top of the page!|[[w:c:community:User:FishTank|Isaac Fischer]]|w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Short and long pages on Fandom}}


=== Story summaries ===
==== Plots and summaries ====
We're notorious for our lack of plot descriptions. A solid majority of story pages on this wiki show their plots as ''to be added''. This is understandable: few editors actively ''enjoy'' typing out lengthy plot descriptions, and those who ''do'' often hold themselves to [[Against Nature (novel)|extreme standards of detail]]. But these ''to be added'' tags, many of them 15 years old or older, are a problem: according to Fandom's Editor Experience team,
Tardis Wiki is notorious for its lack of plot descriptions. A vast, vast majority of story pages have plot sections that say ''to be added''. This is understandable: few editors actively enjoy typing out these lengthy breakdowns, and those who ''do'' often hold themselves to [[Against Nature (novel)#Plot|extreme standards of detail]]. But these ''to be added'' tags, many of them 15 years old or older, are a problem: according to the Editor Experience team,
{{quote|Stubs do provide a bad experience because the readers and search engines that encounter them are left wanting more and an incomplete page (even if it is marked incomplete) has not been proven to "attract editors from the reader base to add to or expand the page" as was once assumed. Every day that a stub exists and remains incomplete is a day that bad experience persists.|[[w:c:community:User:FishTank|Isaac Fischer]]|w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Short and long pages on Fandom}}
{{simplequote|Stubs do provide a bad experience because the readers and search engines that encounter them are left wanting more and an incomplete page (even if it is marked incomplete) has not been proven to "attract editors from the reader base to add to or expand the page" as was once assumed. Every day that a stub exists and remains incomplete is a day that bad experience persists.|[[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Short and long pages on Fandom|Short and long pages on Fandom]]}}


Subpages offer us a way out. Rather than marking thousands of story pages as stubs just because they lack lengthy plot breakdowns, we should put these breakdowns (when we have them) on "Plot" subpages. This wouldn't even require a change to our preload templates! It would look something like this:
Subpages offer a way out! Rather than marking thousands of story pages as stubs just because they lack lengthy plot breakdowns, we should put these breakdowns (when we have them) on "Plot" subpages. This won't even require a change to our preload templates! It will look something like this:
<div class="tech">
<div class="tech">
== Summary ==
<h2>Summary</h2>
A brief, non-spoilery teaser that someone could use to check if they're interested in a story. If a publisher's summary is provided, this is where it would go, in which case the section is called "Publisher's summary".
A brief, non-spoilery teaser that someone could use to check if they're interested in a story. If a publisher's summary is provided, this is where it goes, in which case the section is called "Publisher's summary". In rare cases where publishers have given many different summaries, such as [[PROSE]]: ''[[Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure with the Daleks (novelisation)|Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure with the Daleks]]'', this section may have a <code><nowiki>{{Main|/Publisher's summary}}</nowiki></code> link.


== Plot ==
<h2>Plot</h2>
{{main|Story (dab term)/Plot}}
{{main|<nowiki>/Plot</nowiki>}}
A short synosis that someone could use to get a gist of a story or remind themselves of the plot. For an example, see [[Silver-Tongued Liars (short story)#Summary]].
A short synopsis that someone could use to get a gist of a story or remind themselves of the plot. For an example, see [[Silver-Tongued Liars (short story)#Summary]].
</div>
</div>
Unlike our full plot descriptions, which tend to provide enough detail that you could use one experience the story without actually experiencing it (!), these shorter plot synopses could be written from memory without any editors needing to take notes on every aspect of a story, with all the pausing and relistening that entails. Not only would they make our pages less likely to appear unfinished, their length would also make it easier for readers to access other sections on the page. All the while, readers interested in nitty gritty plot details would still be able to easily access that information (when available) by clicking to the subpage via {{tlx|main}}.
Unlike full plot descriptions, which tend to provide enough detail that one could experience the story without actually experiencing it, these shorter plot synopses could be written from memory without any editors needing to pause or relisten to take notes on every aspect of a story. Not only will synopses make our pages less likely to appear unfinished, their length will also make it easier for readers to scroll and access other sections on the page. All the while, readers interested in the nitty gritty details can still easily access that information when available by clicking to the subpage via {{tlx|main}}.
 
==== Other realities ====
As [[Tardis:Merging policy]] describes, our longstanding precedent regarding alternate versions of characters – whether they're from alternate timelines, parallel universes, palimpests, simulations, or so on – is to split when possible. This has had two results:
# Many pages with [[T:DAB OTHER|strange dab terms]] and very little actual content, such as [[Waterton Street (Pete's World)]], [[Sash of Rassilon (Barusa's universe)]], and [[Moira (Shadow World)]]; and
# Many articles with {{tlx|counterparts}} below their infoboxes, increasing the glut of obscure material past which mobile readers must now scroll to find a page's actual contents.
 
Both of these are problems for usability, and [[T:MERGE]] itself contains the seeds of the solution by clarifying that not ''all'' alternate versions of characters deserve separate pages:
{{simplequote|As a rule of thumb, if there's no more to say on the separate page than what can already be stated on the prime version's "Alternate timelines" subsection, it's not worth creating a separate page for the alternate-timeline version.|[[Tardis:Merging policy]]}}
 
[[Tenth Doctor/Other realities]] – not <code><nowiki>[[/Alternate timelines]]</nowiki></code>, as the section is [[Tenth Doctor#Alternate timelines|currently called]], but a title also inclusive of parallels, palimpests, simulations, and so on – would provide the space for this coverage. It would have the room for discussing the alternate versions of the character, either in separate sections or in a single section with {{tlx|anchor}}s, and linking to separate pages with {{tlx|main}} when separate pages are justified. Such a subpage would also provide a more suitable home for specialized templates like {{tlx|Tenth Doctor counterparts}}.
 
This type of subpage won't remove the need for or existence of separate pages for many alternate versions of characters, but it will go a long way towards alleviating the pressure which has caused so much sprawl in the first place!
 
<div class="tech">
'''Corollary:''' Clarifying in [[T:MERGE]] that the alternate timelines "rule of thumb" extends to subpages. New precedent for "Other realities" section header where applicable, rather than "Alternate timelines" specifically.</div>
 
==== Other validities ====
[[NOTVALID]]: ''[[Death Comes to Time (webcast)|Death Comes to Time]]'' depicts an alternative fate of the [[Seventh Doctor]] and [[Ace]] following [[TV]]: ''[[Survival (TV story)|Survival]]''. We're meant to recognise these names: within this story, Ace is the same character whom we met in [[TV]]: ''[[Dragonfire (TV story)|Dragonfire]]'', and her actions are shaped by her experiences in [[TV]]: ''[[The Curse of Fenric (TV story)|The Curse of Fenric]]'' and other stories. This background is assumed as understood.
 
Now read our article for [[Ace (Death Comes to Time)]]. There's no mention of her shared roots with regular [[Ace]]; in fact, there's no citation of any story besides ''Death Comes to Time'' itself. If you read the page in a vacuum, you could come away thinking she was one of [[Dan Freeman]]'s original characters! To an extent, this is understandable: it would be very silly to duplicate half of [[Ace#Biography]] on two pages. But there's a better way.
 
Many pages for characters and concepts which appear very briefly in non-valid stories, like [[George W. Bush]], feature a "Behind the scenes" subsection called "Information from non-valid sources". This is better than the [[Ace (Death Comes to Time)]] approach, since it establishes a clear link between the valid and non-valid topics, but we understandably haven't taken this route when it comes to more major characters, since it would be cumbersome to cover that much material in a behind-the-scenes section.
 
You should know what's coming by now: in this case, [[Ace/Non-valid sources]], decorated by a helpful new template [[Template talk:NCmaterial|tentatively]] called {{tlx|NCmaterial}}.
{{NCmaterial|''[[Death Comes to Time (webcast)|Death Comes to Time]]''|link=Ace|sub=1}}
 
In [[Ace#Behind the scenes]], a subsection called "Information from non-valid sources" will briefly list or recap Ace's more prominent non-valid appearances, with a {{tlx|main}} link to the subpage covering Ace-related material in these non-valid sources in maximum detail.
 
{{tlx|NCmaterial}} also unlocks a new solution to another old problem: our coverage of concepts whose main licensed appearances are in non-valid stories. Right now we either shove most of these pages' material in their "Behind the scenes" sections, like on [[Canisian]], or we jam our fingers in our ears and pretend we don't understand the obvious connection, like on [[Man with a bent nose (The Tomorrow Windows)]]. Using the above template on pages like these – not on a subpage, but on the original thing – will enable much better coverage of not just Canisians but also licensed crossover concepts like the [[Vivaldi inheritance]] and [[Gwanzulum]].
 
<div class="tech">
'''Corollary:''' Editing [[T:VS]] and [[T:NOT]] to reflect that licensed appearances of valid concepts in non-valid sources can be covered on relevant pages and subpages when marked with {{tlx|NCmaterial}}.</div>
 
==== Biographies ====
In [[Thread:264489#9]], [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] ruled that the biography sections on pages of "highly-recurring characters" should only have 2-3 sentences per story. This ruling was widely ignored – it hasn't been enforced on any page anywhere – and I believe that many, myself included, did not understand it at the time. But I have come to see the wisdom in Shambala's approach.
 
In the proposal text above, I quoted the Editor Experience team's guideline that articles should be
{{simplequote|somewhere between 1000 and 2500 words (not bytes). There are legitimate reasons for individual articles with 4000–5000 words of prose if they engage the reader and stay on-topic; beyond 5000 words, contributors should review a body of text for opportunities to summarize and break out potentially independent text into new articles.|[[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Articles on Fandom|Articles on Fandom]]}}
 
Currently, we fall hilariously short of this standard. Our pages [[Tenth Doctor]] and [[Eleventh Doctor]] are both over ''60,000'' words long, requiring (according to [https://wordcounter.net/ WordCounter.net]) over 3 hours of reading time each – and it's hard to argue that their prose is ''especially'' engaging. No person is sitting down and reading either of these pages start to finish. And don't even mention [[The Master]]!
 
If Shambala's decision were implemented properly, we would see a dramatic reduction of these page lengths, but two problems would remain:
# the matter of what to do with all the material we'd be removing; and
# the fact that such a reduction would be nowhere near drastic enough to meet best practices!
 
Subpages will solve both problems. Biographies which are too long by Shambala's standard can be moved to subpages, rather than deleted outright; and the <code><nowiki>{{Main|/Subpage}}</nowiki> + Summary</code> method would unlock far larger potential reductions in page length.
 
As described in the proposal text above, the information in a summary should be chosen for its relevance to the [[not we]]. I've received some pushback for this part of the proposal, but in actuality, it satisfies both the spirit and the letter of [[Tardis:Neutral point of view]]. Our entire purpose as a wiki is to cover DWU-related stories and concepts in whatever way will best serve DWU fans, and the reason we have [[T:NPOV]] is to serve that purpose, not to promote "expanded universe" content. A neutral point of view does not prevent us from realistically assessing what information is most relevant to our readers: otherwise it would be against the rules to use the "Main actor" variable in infoboxes!
 
The guideline as written also has implications for lead paragraphs. [[Peter Capaldi]] himself had [[User:NateBumber/Capaldi interview|such a hard time]] finding relevant information in our article on [[The Beatles]] that he ultimately gave up! I've since [[Special:Diff/3099699|fixed the issue]] with that specific page by moving information about [[TV]]: ''[[The Chase (TV story)|The Chase]]'' from its 14th paragraph to its 2nd. Applying this approach more widely across the wiki will greatly improve general usability. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 15:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 
== Discussion ==
In the spirit of [[Forum talk:Index#Moving forwrd|our "fresh start"]], I've taken the liberty of adapting the [[Tardis:user rights nominations|user rights nominations]] format to structure this thread somewhat. Hopefully this will keep discussion organised and constructive and give our admins an easier time of gauging support and opposition. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 15:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 
=== Support ===
::'''Please outline the reasons you support this proposal below.'''
''In general'' I '''support''' this idea. I do have the following comments to make. I manifestly deny Nate's claim that
:[...] in actuality, it satisfies both the spirit and the letter of Tardis:Neutral point of view.
and consider his proposal on how to summarize the Tenth Doctor's biography to be a blatant violation of [[T:NPOV]]. However, I ''do not'' think that this is a core feature of his proposal, as we can write "main page" summaries that mention every story with a sentence or so and still dramatically trim down the size of many articles. I propose that we specifically put the discussion of the biography summaries on hold, as it concerns larger issues of how to interpret [[T:NPOV]] and return to that when and if the policy in general is passed. I think overall expansion of subpages is compatible with multiple approaches to trimming down biographies, and it's a larger discussion on how precisely we wish to do that, we shouldn't let that discussion get in the way of this wonderful proposal. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
: I strongly support this proposal as it deals with various issues I’ve encountered on the wiki, and offers a solution that allows both the type of lengthy and hyper-detailed breakdowns we editors love so much, while also offering a muc better usability for the more casual readers.


=== Biographies ===
: I note your mention of galleries as potential subpages, and I want to highlight how much of a good idea that is, as I’ve long felt that the lack of a good visual support for our articles was a problem on the wiki, but was not quite sure how exactly it could be improved as our policies stand. Subpages are an elegant idea, and they are also incredibly easy to use, and intuitive for the readers as well (After all, most other wikis I frequent use them!)
In [[Thread:264489#9]], [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] ruled that the biography sections on pages of "highly-recurring characters" should only have 2-3 sentences per story. This ruling was widely ignored – I do not think it has been enforced on any page anywhere – and I believe that many, myself included, did not understand it at the time. But I have come to see the wisdom in Shambala's approach.


We can use [[Twelfth Doctor/Biography]] to cover the character's biography in maximum detail while [[Twelfth Doctor#Biography]] gives a briefer overview focusing on major appearances.
: I think subpages are a good practical way to solve multiple issues at once,  And while I personally have no issue with the way you’ve outlined your proposals for trimming down and adjusting biographies, I do agree with Najawin that the exact details of how this could be achieved and how it relates to [[T:NPOV]] might be best left to discuss at a later date, once we’ve got the ball rolling on subpages as a whole. I feel like with such proposals, the future of Tardis Wiki is rather bright! [[User:Liria10|Liria10]] [[User talk:Liria10|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)


Our purpose as a wiki is to cover DWU-related stories and concepts as they exist, in whatever way will best serve DWU fans: the [[not we]], who are often browsing on mobile, without Ctrl+F or familiarity with our citation formatting, and for a limited period of time. The reason we have rules like [[T:NPOV]] is because long ago we judged they were the best way to serve DWU fans as a wiki, not because promoting non-TV content was one of our priorities.
I support this completely and to the fullest. [[User:Danniesen|Danniesen]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)


Peter Capaldi's [[User:NateBumber/Capaldi interview|difficulty]] in finding relevant information on our wiki invites us to rethink our interpretation of [[T:NPOV]]. Realistically, TV information should be surfaced in {{w|lead paragraph|leads}}, such as at [[Special:Diff/3099699|The Beatles]] and [[Special:Diff/3099698|Musée d'Orsay]]; by the same principle, much of the non-TV information in sections like [[Tenth Doctor#Appearance]] should be relegated to subpages.
: I support this proposal. It will both improve our ability to cover stories on the wiki and also the readability of articles. [[User:Pluto2|Pluto2]] ([[User talk:Pluto2|talk]]) 19:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)


== Comments ==
:: I also very much support this proposal. I've also been thinking about [[T:NPOV]] in general and have some ideas on that, so I added a thread to the proposals list so that we can discuss it later. In any case I think subpages will ''greatly'' improve the usability of the wiki for both editors and readers. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me"></span>]] 20:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
''If you have any feedback on this proposal, please feel free to add comments here or embed them in the text above with ''<nowiki><ref></nowiki>'' tags. Just sign them with ''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>''. I reserve the right to incorporate, reject, and/or remove anything added to this page. [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 15:41, 19 September 2022 (UTC)''


I really, really like this proposal. It makes a lot of sense and seems like it would improve the experience both for the editor and the reader. I hope to see it implemented at some point soon. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:21, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
: I agree that subpages present an opportunity. Your suggestions for using them for invalid appearances and alt-realities seems particularly elegant. One potential beneficiary that comes to my mind is [[Last Great Time War]], which has become ''vast'' due to the sheer volume of Time War releases in last few years. I share concerns about biography summaries though as I worry drawing a distinction between "major" and "minor" adventures may inspire endless discussions on what makes the cut and what doesn't. But that's for another day; subpages in principle I support. [[User:SherlockTheII|SherlockTheII]] [[User talk:SherlockTheII|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:14, 2 January 2023 (UTC)


{{reflist}}
:: I absolutely love this proposal. With regard to biographies and [[T:NPOV]], I'm not sure that it is an issue. The way I (and this is my personal reading, '''not''' an admin ruling) read the bit of [[T:NPOV]] that is relevant here is that it is talking about taking one source as more true than another, such as claiming that ''[[Genesis of Evil (comic story)|Genesis of Evil]]'' isn't true because ''[[Genesis of the Daleks (TV story)|Genesis of the Daleks]]'' is a TV source, which I don't feel is happening here. We always have to make some form of judgement on the relevence of different sources from different mediums because he have to decide where in an article to place the information. This is just taking that a little further to make using the wiki easier. All of the information will still be there and considered as true as it is now, but the most relevent information will be presented more prominently. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:26, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 
I support this proposal, since I can see the merit in how using subpages could improve the user experience of the wiki. [[User:TheSpaghetOutcast|TheSpaghetOutcast]] [[User talk:TheSpaghetOutcast|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:13, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 
I enthusiastically support this new policy. I feel it will streamline the Wiki in some areas (/Covers, /Appearances) and vastly improve it in others. /Non-valid sources would be a great resource for the invalid stuff and crossovers we cover while /Plot is a fantastic idea that makes the prospect of de-stubifying our thousands of stubby story pages much more feasible, improving reader experiences on all fronts. However, I'm afraid I do share concerns about the summaries left behind by /Biography, though not (I think) as much as some others. I don't have a problem with putting a greater emphasis on TV stuff for this and I enjoy the idea of doing them spoiler-free where possible, but I do take issue with ''all'' TV stories being notable and with the inclusion of "notable minor" details. For instance, I'm not sure I would keep 10's lei outfit on the main page. A variation of his regular costume which only appeared in one scene seems destined for a subpage.
 
I think /Biography could work very well, but that the kinks which need to be worked out might be too big for that to happen within the timeframe of this thread. If that turns out to be true, I strongly advocate for T:SUBPAGE to be implemented but without the excerpts relating to biographies. I would see it as a great tragedy if /Covers, /Appearances, /Plot, /Non-valid sources and /Gallery subpages do not come into being just because of this one wrinkle. [[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:52, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 
I realize I never threw in my hat of support, so here it is! [[User:Editoronthewiki|Editoronthewiki]] [[User talk:Editoronthewiki|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 
=== Oppose ===
::'''Why do you oppose this proposal?'''
 
=== Neutral ===
::'''Feeling lukewarm about this proposal? Tell us why.'''
I'm somewhat hesitant here. I've visited a number of wikis which use subpages to an extent which I find unnecessarily excessive. However, I am pleased to see "When not to use a subpage" and I do recognise the benefits in lightening the load of parent pages whilst at the same time expanding coverage such as for character biographies. I would proceed slowly with caution on a case by case basis. [[User:MrThermomanPreacher|MrThermomanPreacher]] [[User talk:MrThermomanPreacher|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 
: I agree. I can see why subpages might be a good idea, but if we do go ahead with them then I think they should be used as sparingly as possible. [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:57, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:::Neutral support. I support the increased use of subpages, I think I was one of the first to actually use subpages here mostly because any other naming convention would've ended up with messy pages names I seem to recall.
:::The neutrality mostly comes from a concern that too much stuff will be 'shoved off' into a subpage that will stop someone reading through an article following the link. We need to ensure we're not losing too much of the 'Tardis Data Core detailed specificity' to be lost to a subppage if we're moving stuff around. 
:::The proposal does give me confidence that any policy will be written and explained fully. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 05:02, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 
=== Comments and concerns ===
::'''Do you have specific concerns about this proposal that are getting in the way of you making up your mind? Leave them here for discussion.'''
I'm sorry if this is completely daft, but would it be at all possible to implement something like they have over at Wookieepedia for alternate universe versions of characters, etc.? E.g. the page for [[starwars:Wedge_Antilles|Wedge Antilles]] displays initially as being on the '''Canon''' tab; if you go over to the '''Legends''' one (for the old de-canonised Star Wars EU), that's a subpage, but formatted as sort of equal to the "main" one, which I like a lot. Furthermore, on a page like [[starwars:Leia_Skywalker_Organa_Solo|Princess Leia's]], they've somehow managed to link up what look to be two architecturally separate articles (slightly different character name, I have no idea why) using that same "tabbed" visual styling.
 
I think it would be wonderful if either or both of those arrangements could work here – not just for alternate universe versions but maybe even things or people that exist both in the DWU and the real world? Perhaps even (can you tell this is a bugbear of mine?) make sense of those blasted Zygon Lockdown Thingie versions of Doctor Who episodes that get to take up the main un-disambiguated namespace because of our terrifyingly complicated dab rules. [[User:Starkidsoph|Starkidsoph]] [[User talk:Starkidsoph|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:To clarify, they don't "take up" the un dabbed term, even without their existence the real world episodes would still be dabbed. They just happen to end up in it. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::Yes, but without their existence the undabbed titles would redirect to the place whoever typed them almost certainly wanted to go! I know that [[T:NOT WP|we are not Wikipedia]], but I think a lot of users might still intuitively expect that we'd have a similar policy of "if the name applies to several things, and one is clearly much more notable/important than the others, that's the undabbed one," because that policy makes a lot of ''intuitive'' sense. It would be nice if things like "the stub article on a fictional episode of ''Doctor Who'' which is titled identically to the real one" had something more obvious than a tiny "You may" box directing hapless browsers to what they wanted, and even nicer if those hapless browsers didn't so frequently ''land on the other'' in the first place! I know I've gotten off topic, feel free to upbraid me on my talk page, but I really cannot emphasise enough how ludicrously unfriendly the current situation is to casual fans, or literally ''anyone'' other than diehard '''editors''' of this wiki. Aren't we meant to be a resource for everyone? {{unsigned|Starkidsoph}}
 
::: To be fair I am (slowly) renaming the articles to have story dabs (see [[Erasing Sherlock (Contributors)]] and [[The Woman Who Lived (The Zygon Isolation)]]). Also, I don't think putting in-universe articles in subpages for out of universe ones is a particularily intuitive idea IMHO. {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 20:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::Starkidsoph, I share your frustration with page names like [[Doctor Who Series 9]]. You may be happy to know that "if the name applies to several things, and one is clearly much more notable/important than the others, that's the undabbed one" is already the policy when it comes to author pages (see [[Talk:Dave Stone (Many Happy Returns)]]), but unfortunately this precedent isn't applied universally or consistently. While this is definitely a problem which needs to be solved, and I do encourage you to propose a forum discussion about it, I'm not sure that subpages are the best way to fix it, so I'd prefer not to incorporate that specific application into this proposal. For what it's worth, the above paragraph "To prevent the unsustainable proliferation…" lays out a template for how new subpage types should be proposed and approved, so there will be a framework for ideas like yours. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 22:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:::Thanks, I completely understand that. Sorry for derailing – I've ended up burying my own original query! Did anyone actually have any info or opinions re: Wookieepedia's tabbed layout & its applicability here? [[User:Starkidsoph|Starkidsoph]] [[User talk:Starkidsoph|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 
Re:Bongo's above comment, I believe this is Nate's interpretation of NPOV as well when him and I were discussing the proposal back in October. Suffice it to say that I do not agree, and I believe the very second sentence of [[T:NPOV]] contradicts this. But I don't think it's core to this proposal, so we can and should spin this discussion off. It's a clarification of a larger policy, and it's also compatible with this new proposal either way we fall on it. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:43, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
:To address [[User:SherlockTheII|SherlockTheII]]'s concern, I don't think there will be much dispute over the major/minor factor, actually. Why doesn't the lede of [[Twelfth Doctor]] mention ''[[The Blood Cell (novel)|The Blood Cell]]'' or ''[[The Caretaker (TV story)|The Caretaker]]'', whereas it does mention ''[[Death in Heaven (TV story)|Death in Heaven]]'' and ''[[Twice Upon a Time (TV story)|Twice Upon a Time]]''? For common sense reasons: reasons so obvious that this exclusion hasn't sparked any arguments or edit conflicts; reasons which, I might add, do not violate [[T:NPOV]].
 
:Najawin, you're right that Bongo's interpretation matches my own. Regarding your proposed amendment, I think it would be obviously detrimental to usability if the Twelfth Doctor lede were forced to mention every single one of his appearances, and the same would be true for a main page summary of his biography subpage. (Of course I would expect that summary to be longer than the page's overall lede in its present form; but not ''that'' much longer.) If in an admin's eyes this concession is necessary to cobble together a majority vote for passage, so be it, but I hope that it won't be necessary and the proposal will pass as-is. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 16:26, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::If the choices are between the proposal living and failing as it currently stands, I'm opposed to it, strongly so and I will argue vehemently against it. I'm supporting it currently because I don't think the biography [[T:NPOV]] issue is core to the proposal. I also strongly deny that common sense immediately solves the question of what minor adventures are. "Common sense" is applicable for ledes because everything is still grouped on one page. This approach you're suggesting immediately relegates some stories to second class status. Every editor will have their own pet stories that they will want to place on the main version of the page, regardless of the prominence of the character in the story. For example, 13's appearance in [[The Day of the Doctor (novelisation)]]. Relatively minor appearance within the context of the story. But it's a major story, and massively important for the Doctor in general! Could easily be argued to count. Do we mention every time 13 interacts with 10 because it's multi Doctor? That's a good deal of her EU media at this point. I'm unconvinced that common sense easily solves this problem, and when you add in the "notable minor" clause it gets even worse, because editors will disagree on what makes a story notable. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:04, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:::I don't mean to suggest that the choices are between the proposal living and failing as it currently stands! I'm just leaving it up to an admin.
 
:::To briefly respond to your argument, your supposition about "second class status" is just wrong. Fandom's best practices guide says that both readers and search engines understand that subpages aren't separate articles but ''extensions'' of a ''single'' article, in exactly the same way as separate sections are. Note that despite their extreme lengths, major character pages ''already'' omit many minor stories: for instance, only a single one of the 17 ''[[Doctor Who: Battles in Time (magazine)| Battles in Time]]'' comic stories in which [[Martha Jones]] appears is cited on her page – and even then, only parenthetically! The guidelines I proposed above are actually far more lenient than current ''de facto'' practice in this regard. In contrast, actively requiring each and every one of these stories, however minor, to be cited not just on [[Martha Jones/Biography]] but ''on [[Martha Jones]] itself'' would be a far more radical departure from how the wiki works.
 
:::… all that said, you and I have been debating this for months now, and I'm sure we could go back and forth ad nauseum. Hopefully by agreeing to disagree, we can open up the space for other people to express their thoughts, to make it easier for an admin to assess the vibes of the entire community on this topic when making their final decision. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 22:31, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::::Oh, of course, I wasn't interpreting you to be suggesting that! But I think there's substantial concern, not just my own, for the biography issue. I was just emphasizing to whichever admin that will eventually close this thread that I'm strongly against the biography summaries as represented in the main post, so much so that I think it's worth getting rid of the entire proposal if this is how they're making their determination (which I hope they don't!). I'd hope we can simply discuss this issue elsewhere, as myself and others have suggested. I ''obviously'' have a response to your comment, and I ''obviously'' don't find your comment compelling (quelle surprise, we've been discussing this for months), but I would hope that we can discuss this issue on its own thread where we can give the issue the space and nuance it truly deserves, allowing this thread to be the place to flesh out details like "what characters should get subpages for their appearance" or what have you before enshrining these things into policy. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:17, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:::::For ease of use, I've added <div style="border-radius: 3px; background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 2.5px white; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">markers</div> for the start and end of the section you're contesting. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 14:05, 6 January 2023 (UTC)<br><br>
 
::: If the sentiment is to hold off on a ruling on the "NPOV-skirting" aspect of this proposal, perhaps it would be helpful to outline some version of what the policy ''would'' say on the matter of biographies if we ''don't'' initially go with what [[User:NateBumber]] drafted here. At the moment, I'm not quite sure what implementing such a version would look like, short of simply not splitting off /Biography at all. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:00, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:::: I share some of the feelings of [[User:Najawin|Najawin]], but only to the extent that I consider treating televised stories as inherently major is against [[T:NPOV]]. I can't think of any reason [[The Idiot's Lantern (TV story)|''The Idiot's Lantern'']] should be considered major, for example. My opinion is that however we decide what is major and minor should be entirely medium-neutral.
 
:::: I also wouldn't hate it if we didn't have short versions of biographies at all, dodging the whole issue. I'm not certain the short biographies or short summaries are really necessary once we establish that such things are always found on a subpage.
 
:::: My only other input is that I personally disagree with [[User:Epsilon the Eternal|Epsilon]] and consider in-universe subpages of out-of-universe articles ''far'' more intuitive than having separate pages. [[User:Schreibenheimer|Schreibenheimer]] [[User talk:Schreibenheimer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:22, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 
"No comment" until we resolve the issue seems the correct strategy to me. It's disappointing, because it doesn't really shorten pages at all, but pretty much all the other benefits of the subpage policy seem to be preserved. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise on that point. We could theoretically adopt the language as is with the understanding that it's not to be implemented without a very long discussion over it, but that idea I'm skeptical of, as it suggests that violations of [[T:NPOV]] are now the default if we don't find consensus in 3 weeks. I have proposed alternative wording for the section, but I don't want to use it until said thread is resolved because that feels unfair to Nate in the same way I'm uncomfortable with his language being the default. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:27, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:: I'm intrigued, albeit not entirely won over, by [[User:Schreibenheimer]]'s suggestion that we could dispense with a ==Biography== section in the main page altogether. We do, after all, include the basic cliffnotes version of Doctors and companions' life stories in our leads. If we have that for casual skimmers ''and'' the full, unabridged biography (with no concerns of emphasis or "two sentences per story") as its own subpage… do we ''also'' need a ''second'',  longer-but-still-incomplete biographical summary on the main page? Do we? I am at the very least tempted to try this on for size as the "temporary" implementation waiting on the resolution of the separate NPOV debate. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 22:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::: I feel like it could be increadibly confusing for readers if the biography section suddenly dissapears. We're already picking and choosing information to place in the lead so, as I've already said, I don't feel that there should be an issue to pick and choosee the most significant information to go in a summarised biography. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:46, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::::: I don't know — we would still have a ==Biography== ''heading'', I expect, <nowiki>{{main|}}</nowiki>ing to the subpage. It would just be comprised of general statements about the nature of the Doctor's biography instead of an attempt at a biography in itself (similar to the way that the "The [X]'s incarnations" section on Time Lord pages directs readers to their incarnations). I don't think that'd be overly confusing. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 23:15, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 
The lede is ''usually'' populated by information about their character arc and personality. Compare [[Special:PermanentLink/2608632|a revision]] of the 13th Doctor's page after her first season (including special) with [[Special:PermanentLink/1814124|one]] of the 12th Doctor's page. Ignoring the regeneration cycle stuff, the second is a good 70 words longer, devoted entirely to characterization. In large part, I contend, because characterization was the focus of S8 while it wasn't the focus of S11. (Lest you think I'm cherry picking, I assure you, the surrounding revisions are similar.) But it's not clear to me that we can apply this standard to a biography section easily. The two situations are disanalogous. But Bongo, let me ask you, I've raised specific examples where I think it's unclear how to apply the standards on a biography section. Schreibenheimer has done the same. If this is a non issue, surely you can suggest how you'd adjudicate these matters? [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 
: Certainly. For ''[[The Day of the Doctor (novelisation)|The Day of the Doctor]]'' (novelisation), I would exclude it from the summary because, as you mention, it is a minor appearance for the [[Thirteenth Doctor]] and that is the incarnation who we're concerned about in this summary. For Thirteen/[[Tenth Doctor|Ten]] [[Multi-Doctor story|multi-Doctors]], I think this would be done more case by case. [[Titan Comics]]' Thirteen/Ten stories could probably be mentioned all in one short parahraph in the summary as they are multiple stories that form a key arc in Titan's Thirteen Doctor run, one of the main strands of her non-TV media. ''[[The Edge of Reality (video game)|The Edge of Reality]]'' would probably also recieve a brief mention as it is one of the bigger Thirteenth Doctor releases (evidenced somewhat by the fact it has recieved physical releases on all major platforms, something that not every ''Doctor Who'' video game recieves). I'm struggling to think, off the top of my head, of any more multi-Doctors between these 2, but it should really come down to whether the story is a significant part of Thirteen's in-universe life or of the real-world era. For something like ''[[The Idiot's Lantern (TV story)|The Idiot's Lantern]]'', I agree that its not particuarly notable either in Ten's life or the real world era. Therefore, I would be tempted to include it, alongside other more minor stories, in the summary somewhat like this: "The Doctor and [[Rose]] continued to travel with each other for a while. During these travels, among other things, they [...], defeated [[the Wire]] in [[1953]] [[London]], ([[TV]]: ''[[The Idiot's Lantern (TV story)|The Idiot's Lantern]]'') [...]." The reason for including it this much would be that the story had a very wide reach due to its television broadcast. I think that's all of the examples you 2 raised. Let me know if I missed any. In general, in my eyes, the summary should be, well, a summary, detailing the largest overall plot points, the broader arcs and the really, really signficant one-offs. Editors already have to make a lot of decisions regarding how content is presented on this wiki and so I trust that we will be able to handle a few more. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:35, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::Alright, thank you for giving me a concrete proposal. Let me just point out that ''you already disagree with someone else who is suggesting that we can summarize biographies in this way.'' You've described ''Idiot's Lantern'' as a minor story, when Nate explicitly considers it a major story. (As he considers ''all'' tv stories major stories.) And let me go one further here. ''Idiot's Lantern'' isn't important for 10's character arc. But you know what's even less important? ''Blink.'' I assume we'd keep ''Blink'' on the hypothetical trimmed down version of 10's biography. But this is perhaps the most obviously egregious violation of [[T:NPOV]] I can think of, that we would prioritize ''Blink'' over other stories, simply because it was televised and thus super popular and we should mention it. (I'm also not sure why ''Edge of Reality'' should get a mention and ''Day of the Doctor'' doesn't, given how important the latter is for the character overall and how the former is a complete nothing, but that's your prerogative.) I'd just like to ask if the other people who think this proposal is workable as-is agree with this. Because ''if they don't,'' and I'm willing to bet that there are disagreements, and these disagreements will only get more severe as we include more and more stories that might be considered "notable minor stories" (eg, [[Canaries (short story)|Canaries]] for quite a few Doctors or [[The Paradox Moon (short story)|The Paradox Moon]] specifically for 13), that's a serious problem for the idea that this is something trivial that we can just come together on without it being an issue. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:08, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:::Yeah, I was sitting here formulating a rebuttal to your opinion about [[Blink (TV story)|''Blink'']] before realizing that was exactly your point, and these discussions would be constant. I'm with [[User:Najawin|Najawin]]. [[User:Schreibenheimer|Schreibenheimer]] [[User talk:Schreibenheimer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:00, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:::: Hmm, I am starting to see your point here. I can very easily see how someone else, or even me on a different day in a different mood, could disagree with my decisions. I feel that the best course of action here may be to make a draft of some character's biography summary. Seeing it all put together and giving us something more solid to argue over could be helpful for deciding if this is at all workable. I don't have time to do this right now, but I will have a go at it over the next week or so (unless someone else wants to give it a shot first). [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:14, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:Both [[User:Schreibenheimer|Schreibenheimer]] and [[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] have mentioned that I claimed every television story is inherently "major". To the extent that the proposed text suggests such a thing, it's a mistake: a relic from a prior draft. I intended the final proposal to decide whether a story is "major" or "minor" for a character in a medium-neutral way, albeit within the bounds of common sense. If a line here or there slipped through the cracks, that's ''mea culpa''. (As Boris notes, the entire Tenth Doctor lei example may be one of these leftovers!) Contra [[User:Najawin|Najawin]]'s accusation of contradiction, my assessment of notability in the case of [[Martha Jones]] agrees with [[User:Bongolium500|Bongolium500]]'s perfectly.
 
:As it happens, today we have been handed an excellent case study for consideration. From the beginning, this proposal has been for [[T:SPLIT]] as well as [[T:SUBPAGE]], and its guidelines for how to summarise moved information should ideally apply whether the information is moving to a subpage or a regular page. And what better demonstration than the long-anticipated split of [[The Master]]! For instance, a large part of the Master's biography was moved to [[Missy]] and replaced with the following paragraph:
<div class="tech">Having regenerated into a female body, the Master adopted the nickname of [[Missy]]. She arranged for the [[Eleventh Doctor]] to meet [[Clara Oswald]] ([[TV]]: ''[[The Bells of Saint John (TV story)|The Bells of Saint John]]'', ''[[Death in Heaven (TV story)|Death in Heaven]]'') and created the [[Nethersphere]]. The [[Twelfth Doctor]]'s discovery of this artificial afterlife was the first of many encounters between him and Missy, ([[TV]]: ''[[Dark Water (TV story)|Dark Water]]'', ''[[The Magician's Apprentice (TV story)|The Magician's Apprentice]]'', etc.) and they had even tried to renew their friendship, with Missy pledging to renounce her "evil" ways, by the time the two were killed on a [[Colony ship (World Enough and Time)|Mondasian colony ship]], with Missy being shot in the back by her own past self. ([[TV]]: ''[[The Doctor Falls (TV story)|The Doctor Falls]]'')</div>
:While this summary will likely change over time, perhaps substantially – for instance, it may be shorter than it absolutely needs to be – I don't anticipate any edit wars over its contents, and in this light I continue to believe that fears of conflict are overblown. That said, I can't ignore the emerging consensus that this question is serious enough to jeopardise the /Biography subpage concept entirely. In light of this, I've added my vote to [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]]'s [[Tardis:Temporary forums|proposal]] for a dedicated thread to discuss [[T:NPA]]; and in the meantime, rather than sacrifice /Biography subpages entirely, I'll draft an answer to [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]]'s request for a compromise, which will do away with the problematic "major"/"minor" language. I'll aim to share this compromise here later this week, but if anyone wants to beat me to the punch, I'd more than welcome it. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 17:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::Upon further reflection, and emboldened somewhat by [[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]]'s kind show of confidence, here's my suggestion for what we replace the contested section with: '''nothing.'''
 
::We didn't have a special policy guiding how we wrote the summary after splitting [[The Doctor's early life]] from [[First Doctor]]. We didn't have a special policy guiding how we wrote the summary after splitting [[Missy]] from [[The Master]]. And we don't have a special policy guiding us when we write ledes of articles. Instead, we've simply followed existing policy – including [[T:NPOV]]! – and our general familiarity with the Tardis Wiki style: a style which includes our "Tardis Data Core detailed specificity". These things have sufficed before, and they will also suffice here.
 
::Here's how the "Writing a summary" section would look under this proposal:
<div class="tech">After moving material to a new page or subpage, you have to fill the gap on the root page. The Editor Experience team explains the <code><nowiki>{{Main|/Subpage}}</nowiki> + Summary</code> method in this way:
{{simplequote|When a basic article becomes long enough, it could have long chunks that could reasonably be split into their own independent articles. […] The base article could then replace a long section with a spoiler-free summary with the most important points, linked by a context-link hatnote above it (such as <code><nowiki>{{Main|/Subpage}}</nowiki></code>).|[[w:c:community:User blog:FishTank/Categories and Navigation on Fandom#To be clear|Categories and navigation on Fandom]]}}
 
In other words, replace the copied text with a shorter summary of the new subpage's contents and a {{tlx|main}} link. In exactly the same way that a lead paragraph summarises the contents of its page, this summary should give a broad-strokes overview of the subpage's contents, with a particular emphasis on the details most relevant to readers.
 
Note the Editor Experience team's emphasis on a summary being "spoiler-free". While this may not be possible in some circumstances, ideally a new fan should be able to read the summary of a character's biography without having the experience of the stories being totally spoiled for them. For example, a summary of [[Twelfth Doctor/Biography]] might mention that his travels with Bill, Nardole, and Missy concluded in [[TV]]: ''[[The Doctor Falls (TV story)|The Doctor Falls]]'' during an encounter with {{Simm|n=an old enemy}}, without explicitly spelling out that enemy's identity or the specific details of Bill's fate. Like a lead paragraph, a well-written summary should "lead" its readers to want to learn more, whether that means clicking through to the subpage or actually experiencing the stories in question.</div>
::This is my new proposal. Gone is any contestable division between "major" and "minor", and gone is any reference to medium as a determining factor. But even if the section is less detailed than it had been before, the editor isn't left entirely without guidance: rather, they're guided both by existing precedent and by all the other policies as always. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] and [[User:Schreibenheimer|Schreibenheimer]], I'd be particularly interested in hearing your feedback. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 21:04, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:::This is... better, and I'd be willing to accept it if an admin deems it necessary to do so. But I think the appropriate response until we resolve the [[T:NPOV]] issue is to simply ''not summarize biographies''. As written the policy, is, well, a non policy, which doesn't ''necessarily'' lead to endless debates like the original one does, but I think it has a very real possibility of doing so. idk, maybe I'm being too reticent here. We do have a finite number of regular editors, and most of us are a pretty reasonable bunch. But we still have wildly different views on the stories we'd want to place in this summary imo. Again, maybe I'm just worried for nothing. But I think this particular section of the proposal needs to be hammered out far more than it is, and until then we should just decline to summarize anything. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:54, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::: I still feel there's a fair bit of potential in the option of simply ''not'' having a summarised biography on the main page at ''all'', just general reflections about the ''nature'' of a character's biography and a {{tlx|main}} link to the subpage. Some might say that falls rather squarely within [[User:Tangerineduel]]'s concerns about rendering information less accessible, but I say the opposite: if there's a "perfectly good" limited summary on the main page, people are quite liable to never check out the full-length /Biography version. In contrast, if there's just ''no'' biography  on the main page as such, anyone with any sense will realise it's all going on in the subpage and head there. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 23:33, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::::One of the ideas about the wiki was to get people to explore the wiki more, to see more of than the TV story pages or whatever people were coming to look for.
::::So, I guess reading through I've kinda flipped a little on my perspective by [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]]'s recent comment. That if there's a summary, then that will stop people actively exploring more of the wiki, and that includes a sub-page.
::::We also need to look to not creating more work for ourselves, we don't want to have to be writing a sub-page ''and'' a summary of that page. As has been noted there's some sections ''still'' not written on old pages. And needing to write a summary of a subpage is going to introduce inaccuracies, or at the very least a conflict as the two pages get edited / linked at different rates. —[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 01:50, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::::: To be completely frank, the idea that “leading users to explore the wiki more deeply” is (1) a central premise of the Wiki and (2) that such a premise would outrank healthy UX practices as a matter of priority boggles the mind. The Wiki should be a resource of information —-it’s top priority should be giving readers relevant information in a deep yet succinct form, not to make users linger here longer. An approach that centers TARDIS Wiki as a creative writing project first and a resource for readers second is deeply problematic. I think that we as editors sometimes need to step back and think about what priorities the de facto Official Doctor Who Wiki should have. [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 
The more I think about it the more I like it. Tangerine's arguments in particular are quite convincing. Put me down for "don't implement summaries at all for the time being while still creating subpages, and if we figure out a way to do so in a way we can all agree upon at the resolution of the [[T:NPOV]] thread we can instate the summaries then." Sorry Nate, I'm sure this goes against your intent with the proposal here. But the issue of summary/subpage discrepancy is a really great argument Tangerine makes. It then comes down to whether we create the subpages for biographies or not. I'm still okay with not doing so at all, but encouraging users to get into the habit of exploring is ''exactly'' what I want to do. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:21, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 
: Okay, I've thought about this a bit and don't have a definite "answer", but here's my thoughts:
 
: Kind of addressing Tangerine's concerns, I thought that the summaries would/should give the bare minimum of the section to answer a question (more on that in a moment), but if the reader wants to know anything more than an overview, they should be incentivized to click the subpage. This might sound a bit silly, but I think for a character biography, the summary should be what they did ''with'' their life and the biography what they did ''in'' their life.
 
: I know what you're probably thinking— the similarity between lead sections has been mentioned. I actually think a fair amount of character leads ''would'' do better to be shortened and adapted into biography summaries. Here comes the "question" I meant. I would say the lead should (concisely) answer "who is the character", and the biography summary should answer "what is the character's history". The former question certainly includes and necessitates some aspects of the latter, especially for major characters, but there qre some that I think focus too much on it. Examples of just a few major character pages that I personally think do a good job of this at a glance: [[Seventh Doctor]], [[Martha Jones]], [[Davros]] (though perhaps could be shortened) and in fact all the newly split Master pages. Some that I think are a bit ''too'' biographical (and long) to answer "who are they": [[Thirteenth Doctor]], [[Rose Tyler]], [[River Song]], and [[Bernice Summerfield]]. It's not just biographical/historical focus that can dominate; sometimes it's something better suited for another section like personality or even trivia. I've also noticed a great portion of a lead might be dedicated to listing every possible name for the subject, like at [[Time Lord]]. Don't be afraid to make a section for that either— I'm rather proud of what I did about it recently over at [[N-Space]].
 
: Although as we well know, their pages are much different than ours in some respects, {{w|Wikipedia's guide on lead sections}} has a useful tip: " As a general rule of thumb, a lead section should contain no more than four well-composed paragraphs and be carefully sourced as appropriate, although it is common for citations to appear in the body, and not the lead." This is aptly from the page's own lead, and the guide is extremely detailed. (Also, did you know we have the comparably pithy [[T:LEADS]]? I didn't until now. Maybe we can work on that as part of this.)
 
: Unfortunately, I currently lack the energy to create a more in-depth proposal right now, and I also don't want to in case my idea is too different from others. But my suggestion is that because the idea of subpages affects the flow of a page, we should preserve this flow by looking at each section of a page as answering a question. The summary tells you a basic, general overview, but if you want details, you should be actually inclined to visit the subpage. Another suggestion I have is to potentially base biography section summaries off the section headers of the actual biography. What do you all think of this lump of ideas? [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 07:48, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]], you wrote, "if there's a 'perfectly good' limited summary on the main page, people are quite liable to never check out the full-length /Biography version." Indeed, both proposals for the "Writing a summary" section already say, "Like a lead paragraph, a well-written summary should 'lead' its readers to want to learn more, whether that means clicking through to the subpage or actually experiencing the stories in question." I don't see what else needs to be said; limiting our summaries beyond this line would begin to compromise our higher-order priorities as a wiki, as [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] insightfully pointed out above.
 
::[[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]], I agree with everything you've said here, down to moving names from leads to a "Names" section – I suggested the same thing above, citing [[Aliases of the Doctor]], without any idea that such a thing already existed on [[N-Space#Names|N-Space]]. And I'm slightly embarrassed to admit that I'd forgotten [[T:LEADS]] existed! Your formulation of "a section as the answer to the question posed by its header" is elegantly phrased and, as a principle, describes our current practices very aptly – in fact, its explicit adoption would lead to so few implications outside of precedent (by my reckoning, none!) that I wouldn't be surprised if it could be officially adopted without a forum thread, similarly to the process which gave us [[T:MERGE]]. Codifying that would go a long way towards clearing up the dispute in this thread, and it's a compelling next step, even if surely it can't be accomplished within the 3 week allotment. Until we can sort it out, I can accept Scrooge's suggestion of "no bio summaries" in the meantime. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 23:05, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 
:::Something I haven't seen mentioned, and I just thought about it, what does this proposal do for our SEO? I seem to recall Czech killing a few proposals because they would futz with our SEO. (In particular, moving everything to a biography page sans summary might do this.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:06, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 
::::Take a look at the very beginning of Nate's proposal, it does address this. Subpages are ''encouraged'' by Fandom for this reason (and others). I know of some wikis which are, in my opinion, ''overly'' dependent on subpages (and sub-subpages, etc), and they come up fine on Google, and make it easier to find specific information. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:04, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 
Ah, I did miss the quote. With that said, per the source Nate's grabbing from:
 
:If a single section would make a good book chapter with an unambiguous title, it can usually safely be split off. There's no problem with leaving behind a "CliffsNotes" summary of the essentials, and going into deep detail on another page.
 
This was my main concern SEO-wise, doing a biography subpage and leaving nothing behind. We could ask Spongebob? [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 
== Conclusion ==
<div class="tech">
Phew, this is our first TemporaryThread that almost went over a deadline, given that some specific usages of the subpages were a bit more controversial than others. However, TempThreads have always been intended to "be '''actionable within the timelimit''' and "have a '''significant impact on the wiki and its readers'''.
 
I think it's clear for every participant in here that the '''''concept''''' of subpages is beneficial, even if we may disagree/have to further discuss their ''usage'' in some instances. But that's the very reason I'd find it a shame for the whole thread to be simply marked as "unresolved". Instead, what I'm doing is closing it '''in favor of subpages being used''' throughout the wiki, with the compromise that '''not every instance mentioned on the OP is being adopted'''.
 
I'm particularly talking about moving sections from, say, [[Twelfth Doctor#Biography]] to [[Twelfth Doctor/Biography]]. Even if we came close''r'' to consensus than we once were, I don't think we ''quite'' got to that place yet, so my proposition is thus: Add a new entry to [[Tardis:Temporary forums#Proposed_threads]], with something called "Further usages of subpages on the wiki". Matter of fact, I myself [[User:OncomingStorm12th/The_Visual_Dictionary|have been experimenting]] around [[User:OncomingStorm12th/The_Cabinet_of_Light_(novel)/Audiobook|some ideas]] that would be proposed on such a Thread, but that's a discussion for another day.
 
For now, let's start by having subpages for:
* Cover galleries on series that have too many to be placed on the main article (eg: [[BBC New Series Adventures/Covers]] over [[BBC New Series Adventures covers]]
* Lists of appearances (eg: [[Twelfth Doctor/Appearances]] over [[Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances]])
 
Some other propositions seem sensible (such as [[The Doctor's TARDIS/Gallery]] and [[David Tennant/Spoilers]]), but would require changes of current policy, such as "having galleries for in-universe topics" and [[T:SPOIL]]. These can, however, be greenlighted in future thread(s).
 
For navigation/organisation, subpages should still be categorized; the approved classes of subpages should, for example, still be under [[:Category:Lists of appearances]] and [[:Category:Galleries]] (or a sub-category thereof). If you think your proposed new type of subpage won't [[Tardis:Rule of three|have enough candidates to warrant a category]], it ''might'' indicate your "subpage" might better be applied as a different page altogether.
 
To reiterate: new types of subpages '''should be discussed in the forums before being launched in the main namespace'''. In general, we're looking at whether the proposed format is applicable to a wide range of pages (like [[Series 7 (Doctor Who)/Promotion]]), and whether this new subclass of pages would get better treatment as articles proper (like [[The Doctor's hats]] or [[Origins of the Last Great Time War]]), as detailed on Nate's [[#When not to use a subpage]].
 
To conclude: I'm fully aware that these are baby steps in terms of subpage usage, but as I mentioned earlier, there still seems to be some animosity on ''usage'', so I eagerly await for a "part 2" of this discussion in which we propose (and, better yet, use Sandboxes to show) more ways where subpages can be used for Wikifying content! [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:07, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
</div>

Latest revision as of 05:02, 12 May 2023

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Proposal

For a long time, the "Policy" section on my user page has listed a broad array of my concerns and suggestions. Over the months and years, I've come to realize that many of these could be addressed by a singular proposal: the establishment of a proper use of subpages on this wiki.

Below is my proposal for what Tardis:Subpage policy could look like. How closely this resembles the final text is up to our admins, but this draft expresses the core ideas which I think such a policy should encapsulate.

When a page grows too big, consider splitting it into one or more pages or subpages.

What is a subpage?

Doctor Who Magazine/1985 is an example: because of the slash in the page name, it's a subpage of Doctor Who Magazine, so there's a link to that page right at the top, just below the title. This is great for navigation! Fandom's Editor Experience team explains,

"Google understands that subpages have a distinct parent relationship with the base page. […] These subpages have a natural method to get back to the base article: they're linked from the top of the page!"Short and long pages on Fandom

Additionally, a subpage can also be linked to from its parent page with only a partial title: if you're on Twelfth Doctor, the link [[/List of appearances]] will take you to Twelfth Doctor/List of appearances. It's even more powerful than the pipe trick!

If subpages are so useful, why aren't they used on wikis more widely? In 2001, a lengthy debate on Wikipedia resulted in a new rule: do not use subpages. This was to avoid fights like whether to create History/Algeria or Algeria/History. Because subpages had provided a home for material about fictional universes – for instance, Doctor Who/Sonic screwdriver – this presaged a slow exodus of that "fancruft" content away from Wikipedia.

Tardis Data Core was born from that exodus, and ever since we've said we're Wikipedia's evil twin. This means we're free to reconsider Wikipedia's decisions with fresh eyes, including the rule about subpages. The conclusion is that our finite set of standardised section names means we can avoid the confusion that caused Wikipedia's ban in the first place!

How big is too big?

According to the Editor Experience team,

"There's no one ideal length of an article; it should cover all the important and noteworthy points without being so lengthy that readers lose attention. While there is both clear and unclear research on the topic, an informational article should likely take about 7 minutes to read, and be somewhere between 1000 and 2500 words (not bytes). There are legitimate reasons for individual articles with 4000–5000 words of prose if they engage the reader and stay on-topic; beyond 5000 words, contributors should review a body of text for opportunities to summarize and break out potentially independent text into new articles."Articles on Fandom

A softer version of this guideline was established as a local rule in Thread:264489#9. When an article egregiously exceeds these length standards, rather than flat-out deleting the extra material, split the page into subpages or separate pages instead. While Fandom's above guidelines describe the best standards for every article on wikis, length is less of a concern on subpages; we can assume that a reader who clicks through to Tenth Doctor/Biography is ready for a much deeper level of detail than the summary in Tenth Doctor#Biography.

When to use a subpage

Subpages are usually only meant to be linked to from their root page and navigation templates. To use the example mentioned above, Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances is only linked to from Twelfth Doctor and {{Doctor appearances}}, making it an obvious candidate for a subpage.

Subpages should be named after section headers, usually those with headings formatted with ==, such as "Biography" or "Plot". Subpages should never have in-universe titles: for instance, if the subsection Twelfth Doctor#Continued adventures with Clara were deemed too big, we would move it to a section on Twelfth Doctor/Biography, not Twelfth Doctor/Continued adventures with Clara.

Here's a sample of other potential subpage names:

To prevent the unsustainable proliferation of subpage types that Wikipedia faced, a wholly new type of subpage should be discussed on the talk page beforehand. For instance, if you want to create Series 9 (Doctor Who)/Promotion for information about trailers and interviews promoting that series, first you should compare your idea against existing precedent. If /Promotion subpages already exist in other places, you can go ahead and create your page! Otherwise, you should propose it on Talk:Series 9 (Doctor Who), link to that proposal on Tardis talk:Subpage policy, and allow an administrator to conclude the discussion before your split.

When not to use a subpage

Alternately, if you think some material represents a self-contained idea that other articles might want to reference as well, consider splitting it without using a subpage. For instance, when conflicting accounts of the Doctor's origins on First Doctor#Life on Gallifrey became too unwieldy, I created The Doctor's early life. Other examples include pages for specific arcs, like Exile on Earth, or pages for specific events, like Operation Mannequin. This is an art, not a science, and experienced users should use their best judgment to decide how to group content into logical topics.

Here are some examples of when not to use a subpage:

Moving material

Once you've identified a lengthy section and the new page or subpage that will hold it, cut the section's contents and paste it to the new location. Include any subheadings, images, galleries, footnotes, and infoboxes that are inside that section. Subheadings should be adjusted upwards: for instance, each === subheading should become a ==.

Look through Special:WhatLinksHere to update any redirects to the sections you've moved. Similarly, look through the original page's templates and "Behind the scenes" bullet points for any which are more relevant to the new page. One of the biggest advantages of subpages is that they provide more room for not just ordinary coverage but also specific templates and sections. Subpages like Tenth Doctor/Appearance could have their own "Behind the scenes" sections discussing real-world information related to the topic.

Most importantly, Tardis:Plagiarism requires that you credit the content's original authors per CC BY-SA 3.0. When you're moving material to a subpage, it's usually obvious where it came from, but you should still link to the original page in your edit summary so later readers know where to look for the edit history.

Writing a summary

After moving material to a new page or subpage, you have to fill the gap on the root page. The Editor Experience team explains the {{Main|/Subpage}} + Summary method in this way:

"When a basic article becomes long enough, it could have long chunks that could reasonably be split into their own independent articles. […] The base article could then replace a long section with a spoiler-free summary with the most important points, linked by a context-link hatnote above it (such as {{Main|/Subpage}})."Categories and navigation on Fandom
In other words, replace the copied text with a shorter summary of the new subpage's contents and a {{main}} link. In exactly the same way that a lead paragraph summarises the contents of its page, this summary should give a broad-strokes overview of the subpage's contents, with a particular emphasis on the details most relevant to readers.
Start of Contested Section!
A general rule of thumb is to mention all major information as well as any notable minor details. The line between "major" and "minor" is up to editors' discretion.

For instance, take Tenth Doctor#Biography. If it were moved to a subpage, the summary left behind might cite all of the Tenth Doctor and Martha Jones' major adventures, such as their televised ones, but not all of their minor adventures, such as PROSE: Wetworld or COMIC: The Skrawn Inheritance. Similarly, it would mention the Tenth Doctor's companions Gabby Gonzalez and Cindy Wu from the multi-year COMIC: Doctor Who: The Tenth Doctor arc, but maybe not minor companions such as Emily Parr or Rok Ma.

Tenth Doctor#Appearance is another lengthy section. It details each of the Tenth Doctor's various clothing and hairstyle changes. If this information were moved to a subpage, the summary would describe his major outfits (for instance, those worn for a whole television episode or an entire comics run or Big Finish boxset) and any particularly notable minor outfits (such as his lei from TV: The End of Time) while reserving a more detailed breakdown and minor single-appearance costumes for the subpage.
End of Contested Section


Note the Editor Experience team's emphasis on a summary being "spoiler-free". While this may not be possible in some circumstances, ideally a new fan should be able to read the summary of a character's biography without having the experience of the stories being totally spoiled for them. For example, a summary of Twelfth Doctor/Biography might mention that his travels with Bill, Nardole, and Missy concluded in TV: The Doctor Falls during an encounter with an old enemy, without explicitly spelling out that enemy's identity or the specific details of Bill's fate. Like a lead paragraph, a well-written summary should "lead" its readers to want to learn more, whether that means clicking through to the subpage or actually experiencing the stories in question.

Applications

There are many problems that this proposal will solve. Below I discuss those problems and the motivations for this proposal.

Subpage-like pages

Many articles on this wiki are already written like subpages. Our 1000+ lists of appearances are perfect examples of subpages in both purpose and execution:

  1. when a page section (the infobox list of appearances) grows too large and unwieldy, it's moved to a separate page;
  2. the new page is titled in reference to the core page (Character name - list of appearances); and
  3. the core page retains a summary of the most important information (first mention, first appearance).

The only problem is that … well, they're not actually subpages! We've been using a dash instead of a slash for no reason. Twelfth Doctor - list of appearances, to name of one of many, should be moved to Twelfth Doctor/List of appearances.

These aren't our only subpage-like pages. We also have almost 100 "galleries" which function just like subpages; most of them are even already linked from story or series pages with {{main}}. Their form should follow their function: BBC New Series Adventures covers should be moved to BBC New Series Adventures/Covers without hesitation. Standardising gallery subpages and creating them for major characters and concepts will also rescue our thousands of orphaned images.

As another example, consider Aliases of the Doctor. The vast majority of links to this page come through redirects to specific sections, like Theta Sigma, which is already a strong hint that the page should be chopped up! According to the principles in the policy proposal above, we should follow the {{main}} method to split the article into separate pages for major individual aliases, such as Time's Champion and Time Lord Victorious, and then move the remaining overview page to a subpage like The Doctor/Name and aliases. This precedent will also unlock improvements for many pages which shoehorn all of their topics' once-used alternate names into their first sentences, like Chris Cwej's Superiors. Instead, the lead should only mention the two or three most prominent names, while the rest can go in a "Name and aliases" section.

These are just a few examples of low-hanging fruit unlocked by this subpage proposal. I'm willing to bet that there are many more out there!

Plots and summaries

Tardis Wiki is notorious for its lack of plot descriptions. A vast, vast majority of story pages have plot sections that say to be added. This is understandable: few editors actively enjoy typing out these lengthy breakdowns, and those who do often hold themselves to extreme standards of detail. But these to be added tags, many of them 15 years old or older, are a problem: according to the Editor Experience team,

"Stubs do provide a bad experience because the readers and search engines that encounter them are left wanting more and an incomplete page (even if it is marked incomplete) has not been proven to "attract editors from the reader base to add to or expand the page" as was once assumed. Every day that a stub exists and remains incomplete is a day that bad experience persists."Short and long pages on Fandom

Subpages offer a way out! Rather than marking thousands of story pages as stubs just because they lack lengthy plot breakdowns, we should put these breakdowns (when we have them) on "Plot" subpages. This won't even require a change to our preload templates! It will look something like this:

Summary

A brief, non-spoilery teaser that someone could use to check if they're interested in a story. If a publisher's summary is provided, this is where it goes, in which case the section is called "Publisher's summary". In rare cases where publishers have given many different summaries, such as PROSE: Doctor Who in an Exciting Adventure with the Daleks, this section may have a {{Main|/Publisher's summary}} link.

Plot

Main article: [[/Plot|/Plot]]

A short synopsis that someone could use to get a gist of a story or remind themselves of the plot. For an example, see Silver-Tongued Liars (short story)#Summary.

Unlike full plot descriptions, which tend to provide enough detail that one could experience the story without actually experiencing it, these shorter plot synopses could be written from memory without any editors needing to pause or relisten to take notes on every aspect of a story. Not only will synopses make our pages less likely to appear unfinished, their length will also make it easier for readers to scroll and access other sections on the page. All the while, readers interested in the nitty gritty details can still easily access that information when available by clicking to the subpage via {{main}}.

Other realities

As Tardis:Merging policy describes, our longstanding precedent regarding alternate versions of characters – whether they're from alternate timelines, parallel universes, palimpests, simulations, or so on – is to split when possible. This has had two results:

  1. Many pages with strange dab terms and very little actual content, such as Waterton Street (Pete's World), Sash of Rassilon (Barusa's universe), and Moira (Shadow World); and
  2. Many articles with {{counterparts}} below their infoboxes, increasing the glut of obscure material past which mobile readers must now scroll to find a page's actual contents.

Both of these are problems for usability, and T:MERGE itself contains the seeds of the solution by clarifying that not all alternate versions of characters deserve separate pages:

"As a rule of thumb, if there's no more to say on the separate page than what can already be stated on the prime version's "Alternate timelines" subsection, it's not worth creating a separate page for the alternate-timeline version."Tardis:Merging policy

Tenth Doctor/Other realities – not [[/Alternate timelines]], as the section is currently called, but a title also inclusive of parallels, palimpests, simulations, and so on – would provide the space for this coverage. It would have the room for discussing the alternate versions of the character, either in separate sections or in a single section with {{anchor}}s, and linking to separate pages with {{main}} when separate pages are justified. Such a subpage would also provide a more suitable home for specialized templates like {{Tenth Doctor counterparts}}.

This type of subpage won't remove the need for or existence of separate pages for many alternate versions of characters, but it will go a long way towards alleviating the pressure which has caused so much sprawl in the first place!

Corollary: Clarifying in T:MERGE that the alternate timelines "rule of thumb" extends to subpages. New precedent for "Other realities" section header where applicable, rather than "Alternate timelines" specifically.

Other validities

NOTVALID: Death Comes to Time depicts an alternative fate of the Seventh Doctor and Ace following TV: Survival. We're meant to recognise these names: within this story, Ace is the same character whom we met in TV: Dragonfire, and her actions are shaped by her experiences in TV: The Curse of Fenric and other stories. This background is assumed as understood.

Now read our article for Ace (Death Comes to Time). There's no mention of her shared roots with regular Ace; in fact, there's no citation of any story besides Death Comes to Time itself. If you read the page in a vacuum, you could come away thinking she was one of Dan Freeman's original characters! To an extent, this is understandable: it would be very silly to duplicate half of Ace#Biography on two pages. But there's a better way.

Many pages for characters and concepts which appear very briefly in non-valid stories, like George W. Bush, feature a "Behind the scenes" subsection called "Information from non-valid sources". This is better than the Ace (Death Comes to Time) approach, since it establishes a clear link between the valid and non-valid topics, but we understandably haven't taken this route when it comes to more major characters, since it would be cumbersome to cover that much material in a behind-the-scenes section.

You should know what's coming by now: in this case, Ace/Non-valid sources, decorated by a helpful new template tentatively called {{NCmaterial}}.

A journal of impossible things . . .

This subpage includes information about Ace from sources that are not valid on this wiki: Death Comes to Time.

In Ace#Behind the scenes, a subsection called "Information from non-valid sources" will briefly list or recap Ace's more prominent non-valid appearances, with a {{main}} link to the subpage covering Ace-related material in these non-valid sources in maximum detail.

{{NCmaterial}} also unlocks a new solution to another old problem: our coverage of concepts whose main licensed appearances are in non-valid stories. Right now we either shove most of these pages' material in their "Behind the scenes" sections, like on Canisian, or we jam our fingers in our ears and pretend we don't understand the obvious connection, like on Man with a bent nose (The Tomorrow Windows). Using the above template on pages like these – not on a subpage, but on the original thing – will enable much better coverage of not just Canisians but also licensed crossover concepts like the Vivaldi inheritance and Gwanzulum.

Corollary: Editing T:VS and T:NOT to reflect that licensed appearances of valid concepts in non-valid sources can be covered on relevant pages and subpages when marked with {{NCmaterial}}.

Biographies

In Thread:264489#9, Shambala108 ruled that the biography sections on pages of "highly-recurring characters" should only have 2-3 sentences per story. This ruling was widely ignored – it hasn't been enforced on any page anywhere – and I believe that many, myself included, did not understand it at the time. But I have come to see the wisdom in Shambala's approach.

In the proposal text above, I quoted the Editor Experience team's guideline that articles should be

"somewhere between 1000 and 2500 words (not bytes). There are legitimate reasons for individual articles with 4000–5000 words of prose if they engage the reader and stay on-topic; beyond 5000 words, contributors should review a body of text for opportunities to summarize and break out potentially independent text into new articles."Articles on Fandom

Currently, we fall hilariously short of this standard. Our pages Tenth Doctor and Eleventh Doctor are both over 60,000 words long, requiring (according to WordCounter.net) over 3 hours of reading time each – and it's hard to argue that their prose is especially engaging. No person is sitting down and reading either of these pages start to finish. And don't even mention The Master!

If Shambala's decision were implemented properly, we would see a dramatic reduction of these page lengths, but two problems would remain:

  1. the matter of what to do with all the material we'd be removing; and
  2. the fact that such a reduction would be nowhere near drastic enough to meet best practices!

Subpages will solve both problems. Biographies which are too long by Shambala's standard can be moved to subpages, rather than deleted outright; and the {{Main|/Subpage}} + Summary method would unlock far larger potential reductions in page length.

As described in the proposal text above, the information in a summary should be chosen for its relevance to the not we. I've received some pushback for this part of the proposal, but in actuality, it satisfies both the spirit and the letter of Tardis:Neutral point of view. Our entire purpose as a wiki is to cover DWU-related stories and concepts in whatever way will best serve DWU fans, and the reason we have T:NPOV is to serve that purpose, not to promote "expanded universe" content. A neutral point of view does not prevent us from realistically assessing what information is most relevant to our readers: otherwise it would be against the rules to use the "Main actor" variable in infoboxes!

The guideline as written also has implications for lead paragraphs. Peter Capaldi himself had such a hard time finding relevant information in our article on The Beatles that he ultimately gave up! I've since fixed the issue with that specific page by moving information about TV: The Chase from its 14th paragraph to its 2nd. Applying this approach more widely across the wiki will greatly improve general usability. – n8 () 15:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

In the spirit of our "fresh start", I've taken the liberty of adapting the user rights nominations format to structure this thread somewhat. Hopefully this will keep discussion organised and constructive and give our admins an easier time of gauging support and opposition. – n8 () 15:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Support

Please outline the reasons you support this proposal below.

In general I support this idea. I do have the following comments to make. I manifestly deny Nate's claim that

[...] in actuality, it satisfies both the spirit and the letter of Tardis:Neutral point of view.

and consider his proposal on how to summarize the Tenth Doctor's biography to be a blatant violation of T:NPOV. However, I do not think that this is a core feature of his proposal, as we can write "main page" summaries that mention every story with a sentence or so and still dramatically trim down the size of many articles. I propose that we specifically put the discussion of the biography summaries on hold, as it concerns larger issues of how to interpret T:NPOV and return to that when and if the policy in general is passed. I think overall expansion of subpages is compatible with multiple approaches to trimming down biographies, and it's a larger discussion on how precisely we wish to do that, we shouldn't let that discussion get in the way of this wonderful proposal. Najawin 18:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I strongly support this proposal as it deals with various issues I’ve encountered on the wiki, and offers a solution that allows both the type of lengthy and hyper-detailed breakdowns we editors love so much, while also offering a muc better usability for the more casual readers.
I note your mention of galleries as potential subpages, and I want to highlight how much of a good idea that is, as I’ve long felt that the lack of a good visual support for our articles was a problem on the wiki, but was not quite sure how exactly it could be improved as our policies stand. Subpages are an elegant idea, and they are also incredibly easy to use, and intuitive for the readers as well (After all, most other wikis I frequent use them!)
I think subpages are a good practical way to solve multiple issues at once, And while I personally have no issue with the way you’ve outlined your proposals for trimming down and adjusting biographies, I do agree with Najawin that the exact details of how this could be achieved and how it relates to T:NPOV might be best left to discuss at a later date, once we’ve got the ball rolling on subpages as a whole. I feel like with such proposals, the future of Tardis Wiki is rather bright! Liria10 19:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I support this completely and to the fullest. Danniesen 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I support this proposal. It will both improve our ability to cover stories on the wiki and also the readability of articles. Pluto2 (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
I also very much support this proposal. I've also been thinking about T:NPOV in general and have some ideas on that, so I added a thread to the proposals list so that we can discuss it later. In any case I think subpages will greatly improve the usability of the wiki for both editors and readers. Chubby Potato 20:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
I agree that subpages present an opportunity. Your suggestions for using them for invalid appearances and alt-realities seems particularly elegant. One potential beneficiary that comes to my mind is Last Great Time War, which has become vast due to the sheer volume of Time War releases in last few years. I share concerns about biography summaries though as I worry drawing a distinction between "major" and "minor" adventures may inspire endless discussions on what makes the cut and what doesn't. But that's for another day; subpages in principle I support. SherlockTheII 20:14, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
I absolutely love this proposal. With regard to biographies and T:NPOV, I'm not sure that it is an issue. The way I (and this is my personal reading, not an admin ruling) read the bit of T:NPOV that is relevant here is that it is talking about taking one source as more true than another, such as claiming that Genesis of Evil isn't true because Genesis of the Daleks is a TV source, which I don't feel is happening here. We always have to make some form of judgement on the relevence of different sources from different mediums because he have to decide where in an article to place the information. This is just taking that a little further to make using the wiki easier. All of the information will still be there and considered as true as it is now, but the most relevent information will be presented more prominently. Bongo50 22:26, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I support this proposal, since I can see the merit in how using subpages could improve the user experience of the wiki. TheSpaghetOutcast 04:13, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I enthusiastically support this new policy. I feel it will streamline the Wiki in some areas (/Covers, /Appearances) and vastly improve it in others. /Non-valid sources would be a great resource for the invalid stuff and crossovers we cover while /Plot is a fantastic idea that makes the prospect of de-stubifying our thousands of stubby story pages much more feasible, improving reader experiences on all fronts. However, I'm afraid I do share concerns about the summaries left behind by /Biography, though not (I think) as much as some others. I don't have a problem with putting a greater emphasis on TV stuff for this and I enjoy the idea of doing them spoiler-free where possible, but I do take issue with all TV stories being notable and with the inclusion of "notable minor" details. For instance, I'm not sure I would keep 10's lei outfit on the main page. A variation of his regular costume which only appeared in one scene seems destined for a subpage.

I think /Biography could work very well, but that the kinks which need to be worked out might be too big for that to happen within the timeframe of this thread. If that turns out to be true, I strongly advocate for T:SUBPAGE to be implemented but without the excerpts relating to biographies. I would see it as a great tragedy if /Covers, /Appearances, /Plot, /Non-valid sources and /Gallery subpages do not come into being just because of this one wrinkle. Borisashton 00:52, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I realize I never threw in my hat of support, so here it is! Editoronthewiki 20:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Why do you oppose this proposal?

Neutral

Feeling lukewarm about this proposal? Tell us why.

I'm somewhat hesitant here. I've visited a number of wikis which use subpages to an extent which I find unnecessarily excessive. However, I am pleased to see "When not to use a subpage" and I do recognise the benefits in lightening the load of parent pages whilst at the same time expanding coverage such as for character biographies. I would proceed slowly with caution on a case by case basis. MrThermomanPreacher 22:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I can see why subpages might be a good idea, but if we do go ahead with them then I think they should be used as sparingly as possible. Jack "BtR" Saxon 13:57, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Neutral support. I support the increased use of subpages, I think I was one of the first to actually use subpages here mostly because any other naming convention would've ended up with messy pages names I seem to recall.
The neutrality mostly comes from a concern that too much stuff will be 'shoved off' into a subpage that will stop someone reading through an article following the link. We need to ensure we're not losing too much of the 'Tardis Data Core detailed specificity' to be lost to a subppage if we're moving stuff around.
The proposal does give me confidence that any policy will be written and explained fully. --Tangerineduel / talk 05:02, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Comments and concerns

Do you have specific concerns about this proposal that are getting in the way of you making up your mind? Leave them here for discussion.

I'm sorry if this is completely daft, but would it be at all possible to implement something like they have over at Wookieepedia for alternate universe versions of characters, etc.? E.g. the page for Wedge Antilles displays initially as being on the Canon tab; if you go over to the Legends one (for the old de-canonised Star Wars EU), that's a subpage, but formatted as sort of equal to the "main" one, which I like a lot. Furthermore, on a page like Princess Leia's, they've somehow managed to link up what look to be two architecturally separate articles (slightly different character name, I have no idea why) using that same "tabbed" visual styling.

I think it would be wonderful if either or both of those arrangements could work here – not just for alternate universe versions but maybe even things or people that exist both in the DWU and the real world? Perhaps even (can you tell this is a bugbear of mine?) make sense of those blasted Zygon Lockdown Thingie versions of Doctor Who episodes that get to take up the main un-disambiguated namespace because of our terrifyingly complicated dab rules. Starkidsoph 19:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, they don't "take up" the un dabbed term, even without their existence the real world episodes would still be dabbed. They just happen to end up in it. Najawin 19:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Yes, but without their existence the undabbed titles would redirect to the place whoever typed them almost certainly wanted to go! I know that we are not Wikipedia, but I think a lot of users might still intuitively expect that we'd have a similar policy of "if the name applies to several things, and one is clearly much more notable/important than the others, that's the undabbed one," because that policy makes a lot of intuitive sense. It would be nice if things like "the stub article on a fictional episode of Doctor Who which is titled identically to the real one" had something more obvious than a tiny "You may" box directing hapless browsers to what they wanted, and even nicer if those hapless browsers didn't so frequently land on the other in the first place! I know I've gotten off topic, feel free to upbraid me on my talk page, but I really cannot emphasise enough how ludicrously unfriendly the current situation is to casual fans, or literally anyone other than diehard editors of this wiki. Aren't we meant to be a resource for everyone? The preceding unsigned comment was added by Starkidsoph (talk • contribs) .
To be fair I am (slowly) renaming the articles to have story dabs (see Erasing Sherlock (Contributors) and The Woman Who Lived (The Zygon Isolation)). Also, I don't think putting in-universe articles in subpages for out of universe ones is a particularily intuitive idea IMHO. 20:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Starkidsoph, I share your frustration with page names like Doctor Who Series 9. You may be happy to know that "if the name applies to several things, and one is clearly much more notable/important than the others, that's the undabbed one" is already the policy when it comes to author pages (see Talk:Dave Stone (Many Happy Returns)), but unfortunately this precedent isn't applied universally or consistently. While this is definitely a problem which needs to be solved, and I do encourage you to propose a forum discussion about it, I'm not sure that subpages are the best way to fix it, so I'd prefer not to incorporate that specific application into this proposal. For what it's worth, the above paragraph "To prevent the unsustainable proliferation…" lays out a template for how new subpage types should be proposed and approved, so there will be a framework for ideas like yours. – n8 () 22:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, I completely understand that. Sorry for derailing – I've ended up burying my own original query! Did anyone actually have any info or opinions re: Wookieepedia's tabbed layout & its applicability here? Starkidsoph 22:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Re:Bongo's above comment, I believe this is Nate's interpretation of NPOV as well when him and I were discussing the proposal back in October. Suffice it to say that I do not agree, and I believe the very second sentence of T:NPOV contradicts this. But I don't think it's core to this proposal, so we can and should spin this discussion off. It's a clarification of a larger policy, and it's also compatible with this new proposal either way we fall on it. Najawin 00:43, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

To address SherlockTheII's concern, I don't think there will be much dispute over the major/minor factor, actually. Why doesn't the lede of Twelfth Doctor mention The Blood Cell or The Caretaker, whereas it does mention Death in Heaven and Twice Upon a Time? For common sense reasons: reasons so obvious that this exclusion hasn't sparked any arguments or edit conflicts; reasons which, I might add, do not violate T:NPOV.
Najawin, you're right that Bongo's interpretation matches my own. Regarding your proposed amendment, I think it would be obviously detrimental to usability if the Twelfth Doctor lede were forced to mention every single one of his appearances, and the same would be true for a main page summary of his biography subpage. (Of course I would expect that summary to be longer than the page's overall lede in its present form; but not that much longer.) If in an admin's eyes this concession is necessary to cobble together a majority vote for passage, so be it, but I hope that it won't be necessary and the proposal will pass as-is. – n8 () 16:26, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
If the choices are between the proposal living and failing as it currently stands, I'm opposed to it, strongly so and I will argue vehemently against it. I'm supporting it currently because I don't think the biography T:NPOV issue is core to the proposal. I also strongly deny that common sense immediately solves the question of what minor adventures are. "Common sense" is applicable for ledes because everything is still grouped on one page. This approach you're suggesting immediately relegates some stories to second class status. Every editor will have their own pet stories that they will want to place on the main version of the page, regardless of the prominence of the character in the story. For example, 13's appearance in The Day of the Doctor (novelisation). Relatively minor appearance within the context of the story. But it's a major story, and massively important for the Doctor in general! Could easily be argued to count. Do we mention every time 13 interacts with 10 because it's multi Doctor? That's a good deal of her EU media at this point. I'm unconvinced that common sense easily solves this problem, and when you add in the "notable minor" clause it gets even worse, because editors will disagree on what makes a story notable. Najawin 17:04, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
I don't mean to suggest that the choices are between the proposal living and failing as it currently stands! I'm just leaving it up to an admin.
To briefly respond to your argument, your supposition about "second class status" is just wrong. Fandom's best practices guide says that both readers and search engines understand that subpages aren't separate articles but extensions of a single article, in exactly the same way as separate sections are. Note that despite their extreme lengths, major character pages already omit many minor stories: for instance, only a single one of the 17 Battles in Time comic stories in which Martha Jones appears is cited on her page – and even then, only parenthetically! The guidelines I proposed above are actually far more lenient than current de facto practice in this regard. In contrast, actively requiring each and every one of these stories, however minor, to be cited not just on Martha Jones/Biography but on Martha Jones itself would be a far more radical departure from how the wiki works.
… all that said, you and I have been debating this for months now, and I'm sure we could go back and forth ad nauseum. Hopefully by agreeing to disagree, we can open up the space for other people to express their thoughts, to make it easier for an admin to assess the vibes of the entire community on this topic when making their final decision. – n8 () 22:31, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Oh, of course, I wasn't interpreting you to be suggesting that! But I think there's substantial concern, not just my own, for the biography issue. I was just emphasizing to whichever admin that will eventually close this thread that I'm strongly against the biography summaries as represented in the main post, so much so that I think it's worth getting rid of the entire proposal if this is how they're making their determination (which I hope they don't!). I'd hope we can simply discuss this issue elsewhere, as myself and others have suggested. I obviously have a response to your comment, and I obviously don't find your comment compelling (quelle surprise, we've been discussing this for months), but I would hope that we can discuss this issue on its own thread where we can give the issue the space and nuance it truly deserves, allowing this thread to be the place to flesh out details like "what characters should get subpages for their appearance" or what have you before enshrining these things into policy. Najawin 23:17, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
For ease of use, I've added
markers
for the start and end of the section you're contesting. – n8 () 14:05, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

If the sentiment is to hold off on a ruling on the "NPOV-skirting" aspect of this proposal, perhaps it would be helpful to outline some version of what the policy would say on the matter of biographies if we don't initially go with what User:NateBumber drafted here. At the moment, I'm not quite sure what implementing such a version would look like, short of simply not splitting off /Biography at all. Scrooge MacDuck 18:00, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
I share some of the feelings of Najawin, but only to the extent that I consider treating televised stories as inherently major is against T:NPOV. I can't think of any reason The Idiot's Lantern should be considered major, for example. My opinion is that however we decide what is major and minor should be entirely medium-neutral.
I also wouldn't hate it if we didn't have short versions of biographies at all, dodging the whole issue. I'm not certain the short biographies or short summaries are really necessary once we establish that such things are always found on a subpage.
My only other input is that I personally disagree with Epsilon and consider in-universe subpages of out-of-universe articles far more intuitive than having separate pages. Schreibenheimer 18:22, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

"No comment" until we resolve the issue seems the correct strategy to me. It's disappointing, because it doesn't really shorten pages at all, but pretty much all the other benefits of the subpage policy seem to be preserved. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise on that point. We could theoretically adopt the language as is with the understanding that it's not to be implemented without a very long discussion over it, but that idea I'm skeptical of, as it suggests that violations of T:NPOV are now the default if we don't find consensus in 3 weeks. I have proposed alternative wording for the section, but I don't want to use it until said thread is resolved because that feels unfair to Nate in the same way I'm uncomfortable with his language being the default. Najawin 21:27, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm intrigued, albeit not entirely won over, by User:Schreibenheimer's suggestion that we could dispense with a ==Biography== section in the main page altogether. We do, after all, include the basic cliffnotes version of Doctors and companions' life stories in our leads. If we have that for casual skimmers and the full, unabridged biography (with no concerns of emphasis or "two sentences per story") as its own subpage… do we also need a second, longer-but-still-incomplete biographical summary on the main page? Do we? I am at the very least tempted to try this on for size as the "temporary" implementation waiting on the resolution of the separate NPOV debate. Scrooge MacDuck 22:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
I feel like it could be increadibly confusing for readers if the biography section suddenly dissapears. We're already picking and choosing information to place in the lead so, as I've already said, I don't feel that there should be an issue to pick and choosee the most significant information to go in a summarised biography. Bongo50 22:46, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
I don't know — we would still have a ==Biography== heading, I expect, {{main|}}ing to the subpage. It would just be comprised of general statements about the nature of the Doctor's biography instead of an attempt at a biography in itself (similar to the way that the "The [X]'s incarnations" section on Time Lord pages directs readers to their incarnations). I don't think that'd be overly confusing. Scrooge MacDuck 23:15, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

The lede is usually populated by information about their character arc and personality. Compare a revision of the 13th Doctor's page after her first season (including special) with one of the 12th Doctor's page. Ignoring the regeneration cycle stuff, the second is a good 70 words longer, devoted entirely to characterization. In large part, I contend, because characterization was the focus of S8 while it wasn't the focus of S11. (Lest you think I'm cherry picking, I assure you, the surrounding revisions are similar.) But it's not clear to me that we can apply this standard to a biography section easily. The two situations are disanalogous. But Bongo, let me ask you, I've raised specific examples where I think it's unclear how to apply the standards on a biography section. Schreibenheimer has done the same. If this is a non issue, surely you can suggest how you'd adjudicate these matters? Najawin 23:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Certainly. For The Day of the Doctor (novelisation), I would exclude it from the summary because, as you mention, it is a minor appearance for the Thirteenth Doctor and that is the incarnation who we're concerned about in this summary. For Thirteen/Ten multi-Doctors, I think this would be done more case by case. Titan Comics' Thirteen/Ten stories could probably be mentioned all in one short parahraph in the summary as they are multiple stories that form a key arc in Titan's Thirteen Doctor run, one of the main strands of her non-TV media. The Edge of Reality would probably also recieve a brief mention as it is one of the bigger Thirteenth Doctor releases (evidenced somewhat by the fact it has recieved physical releases on all major platforms, something that not every Doctor Who video game recieves). I'm struggling to think, off the top of my head, of any more multi-Doctors between these 2, but it should really come down to whether the story is a significant part of Thirteen's in-universe life or of the real-world era. For something like The Idiot's Lantern, I agree that its not particuarly notable either in Ten's life or the real world era. Therefore, I would be tempted to include it, alongside other more minor stories, in the summary somewhat like this: "The Doctor and Rose continued to travel with each other for a while. During these travels, among other things, they [...], defeated the Wire in 1953 London, (TV: The Idiot's Lantern) [...]." The reason for including it this much would be that the story had a very wide reach due to its television broadcast. I think that's all of the examples you 2 raised. Let me know if I missed any. In general, in my eyes, the summary should be, well, a summary, detailing the largest overall plot points, the broader arcs and the really, really signficant one-offs. Editors already have to make a lot of decisions regarding how content is presented on this wiki and so I trust that we will be able to handle a few more. Bongo50 00:35, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
Alright, thank you for giving me a concrete proposal. Let me just point out that you already disagree with someone else who is suggesting that we can summarize biographies in this way. You've described Idiot's Lantern as a minor story, when Nate explicitly considers it a major story. (As he considers all tv stories major stories.) And let me go one further here. Idiot's Lantern isn't important for 10's character arc. But you know what's even less important? Blink. I assume we'd keep Blink on the hypothetical trimmed down version of 10's biography. But this is perhaps the most obviously egregious violation of T:NPOV I can think of, that we would prioritize Blink over other stories, simply because it was televised and thus super popular and we should mention it. (I'm also not sure why Edge of Reality should get a mention and Day of the Doctor doesn't, given how important the latter is for the character overall and how the former is a complete nothing, but that's your prerogative.) I'd just like to ask if the other people who think this proposal is workable as-is agree with this. Because if they don't, and I'm willing to bet that there are disagreements, and these disagreements will only get more severe as we include more and more stories that might be considered "notable minor stories" (eg, Canaries for quite a few Doctors or The Paradox Moon specifically for 13), that's a serious problem for the idea that this is something trivial that we can just come together on without it being an issue. Najawin 01:08, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, I was sitting here formulating a rebuttal to your opinion about Blink before realizing that was exactly your point, and these discussions would be constant. I'm with Najawin. Schreibenheimer 04:00, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
Hmm, I am starting to see your point here. I can very easily see how someone else, or even me on a different day in a different mood, could disagree with my decisions. I feel that the best course of action here may be to make a draft of some character's biography summary. Seeing it all put together and giving us something more solid to argue over could be helpful for deciding if this is at all workable. I don't have time to do this right now, but I will have a go at it over the next week or so (unless someone else wants to give it a shot first). Bongo50 17:14, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
Both Schreibenheimer and Borisashton have mentioned that I claimed every television story is inherently "major". To the extent that the proposed text suggests such a thing, it's a mistake: a relic from a prior draft. I intended the final proposal to decide whether a story is "major" or "minor" for a character in a medium-neutral way, albeit within the bounds of common sense. If a line here or there slipped through the cracks, that's mea culpa. (As Boris notes, the entire Tenth Doctor lei example may be one of these leftovers!) Contra Najawin's accusation of contradiction, my assessment of notability in the case of Martha Jones agrees with Bongolium500's perfectly.
As it happens, today we have been handed an excellent case study for consideration. From the beginning, this proposal has been for T:SPLIT as well as T:SUBPAGE, and its guidelines for how to summarise moved information should ideally apply whether the information is moving to a subpage or a regular page. And what better demonstration than the long-anticipated split of The Master! For instance, a large part of the Master's biography was moved to Missy and replaced with the following paragraph:
Having regenerated into a female body, the Master adopted the nickname of Missy. She arranged for the Eleventh Doctor to meet Clara Oswald (TV: The Bells of Saint John, Death in Heaven) and created the Nethersphere. The Twelfth Doctor's discovery of this artificial afterlife was the first of many encounters between him and Missy, (TV: Dark Water, The Magician's Apprentice, etc.) and they had even tried to renew their friendship, with Missy pledging to renounce her "evil" ways, by the time the two were killed on a Mondasian colony ship, with Missy being shot in the back by her own past self. (TV: The Doctor Falls)
While this summary will likely change over time, perhaps substantially – for instance, it may be shorter than it absolutely needs to be – I don't anticipate any edit wars over its contents, and in this light I continue to believe that fears of conflict are overblown. That said, I can't ignore the emerging consensus that this question is serious enough to jeopardise the /Biography subpage concept entirely. In light of this, I've added my vote to Chubby Potato's proposal for a dedicated thread to discuss T:NPA; and in the meantime, rather than sacrifice /Biography subpages entirely, I'll draft an answer to Scrooge MacDuck's request for a compromise, which will do away with the problematic "major"/"minor" language. I'll aim to share this compromise here later this week, but if anyone wants to beat me to the punch, I'd more than welcome it. – n8 () 17:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Upon further reflection, and emboldened somewhat by Tangerineduel's kind show of confidence, here's my suggestion for what we replace the contested section with: nothing.
We didn't have a special policy guiding how we wrote the summary after splitting The Doctor's early life from First Doctor. We didn't have a special policy guiding how we wrote the summary after splitting Missy from The Master. And we don't have a special policy guiding us when we write ledes of articles. Instead, we've simply followed existing policy – including T:NPOV! – and our general familiarity with the Tardis Wiki style: a style which includes our "Tardis Data Core detailed specificity". These things have sufficed before, and they will also suffice here.
Here's how the "Writing a summary" section would look under this proposal:
After moving material to a new page or subpage, you have to fill the gap on the root page. The Editor Experience team explains the {{Main|/Subpage}} + Summary method in this way:
"When a basic article becomes long enough, it could have long chunks that could reasonably be split into their own independent articles. […] The base article could then replace a long section with a spoiler-free summary with the most important points, linked by a context-link hatnote above it (such as {{Main|/Subpage}})."Categories and navigation on Fandom

In other words, replace the copied text with a shorter summary of the new subpage's contents and a {{main}} link. In exactly the same way that a lead paragraph summarises the contents of its page, this summary should give a broad-strokes overview of the subpage's contents, with a particular emphasis on the details most relevant to readers.

Note the Editor Experience team's emphasis on a summary being "spoiler-free". While this may not be possible in some circumstances, ideally a new fan should be able to read the summary of a character's biography without having the experience of the stories being totally spoiled for them. For example, a summary of Twelfth Doctor/Biography might mention that his travels with Bill, Nardole, and Missy concluded in TV: The Doctor Falls during an encounter with an old enemy, without explicitly spelling out that enemy's identity or the specific details of Bill's fate. Like a lead paragraph, a well-written summary should "lead" its readers to want to learn more, whether that means clicking through to the subpage or actually experiencing the stories in question.
This is my new proposal. Gone is any contestable division between "major" and "minor", and gone is any reference to medium as a determining factor. But even if the section is less detailed than it had been before, the editor isn't left entirely without guidance: rather, they're guided both by existing precedent and by all the other policies as always. Najawin and Schreibenheimer, I'd be particularly interested in hearing your feedback. – n8 () 21:04, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
This is... better, and I'd be willing to accept it if an admin deems it necessary to do so. But I think the appropriate response until we resolve the T:NPOV issue is to simply not summarize biographies. As written the policy, is, well, a non policy, which doesn't necessarily lead to endless debates like the original one does, but I think it has a very real possibility of doing so. idk, maybe I'm being too reticent here. We do have a finite number of regular editors, and most of us are a pretty reasonable bunch. But we still have wildly different views on the stories we'd want to place in this summary imo. Again, maybe I'm just worried for nothing. But I think this particular section of the proposal needs to be hammered out far more than it is, and until then we should just decline to summarize anything. Najawin 22:54, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
I still feel there's a fair bit of potential in the option of simply not having a summarised biography on the main page at all, just general reflections about the nature of a character's biography and a {{main}} link to the subpage. Some might say that falls rather squarely within User:Tangerineduel's concerns about rendering information less accessible, but I say the opposite: if there's a "perfectly good" limited summary on the main page, people are quite liable to never check out the full-length /Biography version. In contrast, if there's just no biography on the main page as such, anyone with any sense will realise it's all going on in the subpage and head there. Scrooge MacDuck 23:33, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
One of the ideas about the wiki was to get people to explore the wiki more, to see more of than the TV story pages or whatever people were coming to look for.
So, I guess reading through I've kinda flipped a little on my perspective by Scrooge MacDuck's recent comment. That if there's a summary, then that will stop people actively exploring more of the wiki, and that includes a sub-page.
We also need to look to not creating more work for ourselves, we don't want to have to be writing a sub-page and a summary of that page. As has been noted there's some sections still not written on old pages. And needing to write a summary of a subpage is going to introduce inaccuracies, or at the very least a conflict as the two pages get edited / linked at different rates. —Tangerineduel / talk 01:50, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
To be completely frank, the idea that “leading users to explore the wiki more deeply” is (1) a central premise of the Wiki and (2) that such a premise would outrank healthy UX practices as a matter of priority boggles the mind. The Wiki should be a resource of information —-it’s top priority should be giving readers relevant information in a deep yet succinct form, not to make users linger here longer. An approach that centers TARDIS Wiki as a creative writing project first and a resource for readers second is deeply problematic. I think that we as editors sometimes need to step back and think about what priorities the de facto Official Doctor Who Wiki should have. NoNotTheMemes 07:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

The more I think about it the more I like it. Tangerine's arguments in particular are quite convincing. Put me down for "don't implement summaries at all for the time being while still creating subpages, and if we figure out a way to do so in a way we can all agree upon at the resolution of the T:NPOV thread we can instate the summaries then." Sorry Nate, I'm sure this goes against your intent with the proposal here. But the issue of summary/subpage discrepancy is a really great argument Tangerine makes. It then comes down to whether we create the subpages for biographies or not. I'm still okay with not doing so at all, but encouraging users to get into the habit of exploring is exactly what I want to do. Najawin 04:21, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I've thought about this a bit and don't have a definite "answer", but here's my thoughts:
Kind of addressing Tangerine's concerns, I thought that the summaries would/should give the bare minimum of the section to answer a question (more on that in a moment), but if the reader wants to know anything more than an overview, they should be incentivized to click the subpage. This might sound a bit silly, but I think for a character biography, the summary should be what they did with their life and the biography what they did in their life.
I know what you're probably thinking— the similarity between lead sections has been mentioned. I actually think a fair amount of character leads would do better to be shortened and adapted into biography summaries. Here comes the "question" I meant. I would say the lead should (concisely) answer "who is the character", and the biography summary should answer "what is the character's history". The former question certainly includes and necessitates some aspects of the latter, especially for major characters, but there qre some that I think focus too much on it. Examples of just a few major character pages that I personally think do a good job of this at a glance: Seventh Doctor, Martha Jones, Davros (though perhaps could be shortened) and in fact all the newly split Master pages. Some that I think are a bit too biographical (and long) to answer "who are they": Thirteenth Doctor, Rose Tyler, River Song, and Bernice Summerfield. It's not just biographical/historical focus that can dominate; sometimes it's something better suited for another section like personality or even trivia. I've also noticed a great portion of a lead might be dedicated to listing every possible name for the subject, like at Time Lord. Don't be afraid to make a section for that either— I'm rather proud of what I did about it recently over at N-Space.
Although as we well know, their pages are much different than ours in some respects, Wikipedia's guide on lead sections has a useful tip: " As a general rule of thumb, a lead section should contain no more than four well-composed paragraphs and be carefully sourced as appropriate, although it is common for citations to appear in the body, and not the lead." This is aptly from the page's own lead, and the guide is extremely detailed. (Also, did you know we have the comparably pithy T:LEADS? I didn't until now. Maybe we can work on that as part of this.)
Unfortunately, I currently lack the energy to create a more in-depth proposal right now, and I also don't want to in case my idea is too different from others. But my suggestion is that because the idea of subpages affects the flow of a page, we should preserve this flow by looking at each section of a page as answering a question. The summary tells you a basic, general overview, but if you want details, you should be actually inclined to visit the subpage. Another suggestion I have is to potentially base biography section summaries off the section headers of the actual biography. What do you all think of this lump of ideas? Chubby Potato 07:48, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Scrooge MacDuck, you wrote, "if there's a 'perfectly good' limited summary on the main page, people are quite liable to never check out the full-length /Biography version." Indeed, both proposals for the "Writing a summary" section already say, "Like a lead paragraph, a well-written summary should 'lead' its readers to want to learn more, whether that means clicking through to the subpage or actually experiencing the stories in question." I don't see what else needs to be said; limiting our summaries beyond this line would begin to compromise our higher-order priorities as a wiki, as NoNotTheMemes insightfully pointed out above.
Chubby Potato, I agree with everything you've said here, down to moving names from leads to a "Names" section – I suggested the same thing above, citing Aliases of the Doctor, without any idea that such a thing already existed on N-Space. And I'm slightly embarrassed to admit that I'd forgotten T:LEADS existed! Your formulation of "a section as the answer to the question posed by its header" is elegantly phrased and, as a principle, describes our current practices very aptly – in fact, its explicit adoption would lead to so few implications outside of precedent (by my reckoning, none!) that I wouldn't be surprised if it could be officially adopted without a forum thread, similarly to the process which gave us T:MERGE. Codifying that would go a long way towards clearing up the dispute in this thread, and it's a compelling next step, even if surely it can't be accomplished within the 3 week allotment. Until we can sort it out, I can accept Scrooge's suggestion of "no bio summaries" in the meantime. – n8 () 23:05, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Something I haven't seen mentioned, and I just thought about it, what does this proposal do for our SEO? I seem to recall Czech killing a few proposals because they would futz with our SEO. (In particular, moving everything to a biography page sans summary might do this.) Najawin 22:06, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Take a look at the very beginning of Nate's proposal, it does address this. Subpages are encouraged by Fandom for this reason (and others). I know of some wikis which are, in my opinion, overly dependent on subpages (and sub-subpages, etc), and they come up fine on Google, and make it easier to find specific information. Chubby Potato 23:04, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I did miss the quote. With that said, per the source Nate's grabbing from:

If a single section would make a good book chapter with an unambiguous title, it can usually safely be split off. There's no problem with leaving behind a "CliffsNotes" summary of the essentials, and going into deep detail on another page.

This was my main concern SEO-wise, doing a biography subpage and leaving nothing behind. We could ask Spongebob? Najawin 23:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Conclusion

Phew, this is our first TemporaryThread that almost went over a deadline, given that some specific usages of the subpages were a bit more controversial than others. However, TempThreads have always been intended to "be actionable within the timelimit and "have a significant impact on the wiki and its readers.

I think it's clear for every participant in here that the concept of subpages is beneficial, even if we may disagree/have to further discuss their usage in some instances. But that's the very reason I'd find it a shame for the whole thread to be simply marked as "unresolved". Instead, what I'm doing is closing it in favor of subpages being used throughout the wiki, with the compromise that not every instance mentioned on the OP is being adopted.

I'm particularly talking about moving sections from, say, Twelfth Doctor#Biography to Twelfth Doctor/Biography. Even if we came closer to consensus than we once were, I don't think we quite got to that place yet, so my proposition is thus: Add a new entry to Tardis:Temporary forums#Proposed_threads, with something called "Further usages of subpages on the wiki". Matter of fact, I myself have been experimenting around some ideas that would be proposed on such a Thread, but that's a discussion for another day.

For now, let's start by having subpages for:

Some other propositions seem sensible (such as The Doctor's TARDIS/Gallery and David Tennant/Spoilers), but would require changes of current policy, such as "having galleries for in-universe topics" and T:SPOIL. These can, however, be greenlighted in future thread(s).

For navigation/organisation, subpages should still be categorized; the approved classes of subpages should, for example, still be under Category:Lists of appearances and Category:Galleries (or a sub-category thereof). If you think your proposed new type of subpage won't have enough candidates to warrant a category, it might indicate your "subpage" might better be applied as a different page altogether.

To reiterate: new types of subpages should be discussed in the forums before being launched in the main namespace. In general, we're looking at whether the proposed format is applicable to a wide range of pages (like Series 7 (Doctor Who)/Promotion), and whether this new subclass of pages would get better treatment as articles proper (like The Doctor's hats or Origins of the Last Great Time War), as detailed on Nate's #When not to use a subpage.

To conclude: I'm fully aware that these are baby steps in terms of subpage usage, but as I mentioned earlier, there still seems to be some animosity on usage, so I eagerly await for a "part 2" of this discussion in which we propose (and, better yet, use Sandboxes to show) more ways where subpages can be used for Wikifying content! OncomingStorm12th 18:07, 23 January 2023 (UTC)