Talk:Doctor Who (in-universe)

Name Change

Given the consistent referencing to this outside of just The Thief of Sherwood (short story), and the fact that it's been referenced multiple times recently, I have to agree that a different, more generic name is probably appropriate. For instance, if someone is coming to the wiki to understand The Terror of the Umpty Ums (short story) and looks for something like "Doctor Who in universe", they're going to get nowhere. "The Thief of Sherwood" will be entirely unhelpful for them. And since the goal of names on this wiki is to be helpful to the average reader, even though "n-space" might not be the most helpful, something other than "The Thief of Sherwood" has to be preferable. Najawin ☎ 07:45, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

Faction Paradox

Should in-universe references to Faction Paradox (series) be included on this page or should they have their own page? For those unaware, We Are the Enemy establishes the existence of such a thing, and Author Biographies establishes that every single author that contributed to the book, in fact, exists in the DWU and contributed to an in-universe Faction Paradox book, not just Lawrence Burton (since the actual author biographies are placed side by side with in universe character biographies). Najawin ☎ 01:52, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

Well, this page is here for information directly involving the Doctor Who series, and any information about other information, such as Sarah Jane's Doctor series, is included on The Doctor in popular culture and mythology. Similar pages are Iris Wildthyme in popular culture and mythology, Daleks in popular culture and mythology, Cybermen in popular culture and mythology, and The Master in popular culture and mythology.

I would propose Faction Paradox in popular culture and mythology to cover in-universe Faction Paradox series information. Epsilon (Contact me) 02:00, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

Reasonable proposal. The reason I suggested here though is twofold. One, it's not just Faction Paradox creeping into popular culture and mythology, it's a full fledged equivalent to what we have in our own world in some sense. So if we're specifically talking about Iris_Wildthyme_in_popular_culture_and_mythology#As_a_character_in_fiction, that's analogous, but the rest seems broader. Secondly, We Are the Enemy has the following quote.

This different kind of history might just as well be one in which your empire has been reduced to a background detail – not even one born from much detailed thought – in your favourite Saturday afternoon television show, the children's own programme which adults other than myself adore.

So it's explicitly affirming itself as a spinoff of Doctor Who (N-Space). Najawin ☎ 02:06, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

Even if we ended up hosting it here though, Faction Paradox in popular culture and mythology might still be relevant to talk about things like Anonymous wearing skull masks or "Totally Not Grant Morrison" being abducted by Faction Paradox. Najawin ☎ 02:09, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

If you're absolutely certain that the Faction Paradox in-universe series takes place in N-Space, I would certainly agree with its inclusion on this page. I would also recommend making a second page exclusively about the spin-off, with hyperlinks to this page. Epsilon (Contact me) 02:13, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

Maybe waiting for [T SPOILER VIOLATION HERE ABOUT BOOK COMING OUT WITHIN THE NEXT 2 WEEKS] will make answering the question of how FP and DW interact easier. I'll wait until then. Najawin ☎ 02:19, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

If you feel that's the appropriate course of action, that's fine. May I ask why that book I cannot name has relevance to this page though? (If you can explain without breaking T:SPOILER.) Epsilon (Contact me) 02:28, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

I'll put it on your talk page and then remove it. Najawin ☎ 02:30, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

…TBH I don't actually think The Spoiler Thing is going to have any influence here, from what I've heard about it.

Regardless, I would imagine T:NO RW applies: we all know what Burton's talking about when he yammers about "your favourite Saturday afternoon television show, the children's own programme which adults other than myself adore". But is there any in-universe reason why he couldn't be talking about Doctor Omega, or, for that matter, some completely unrelated sci-fi series like Star Trek?

Putting my admin hat on for a second, if the italicised title of "Faction Paradox" is used in-universe, then yes, the creation of Faction Paradox (N-Space) would be within policy. And it's not necessarily contradictory with also creating a broader Faction Paradox in popular culture and mythology page, by any means.

But IMO, what we should not do without great care is draw any links between it and accounts of Doctor Who in-universe. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 09:45, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, The Spoiler Thing is, uh, weird, and I'm looking forward to seeing what exactly comes of it. (It's more a timeline/N-space/reconciling FP with Nu-who question than "do FP references belong on this page" question)

And fair play on the other point. Other stories in the book even reference "Mister E" as a Doctor Who analogue.

We Are the Enemy says "I was thinking about the Faction, about We Are the Enemy and what I'll write once I get in" (so even establishing that there's an in universe We Are the Enemy). Biographies of Authors absolutely uses "Faction Paradox", and connects them to Doctor Who. It also uses The Taking of Planet 5, City of the Saved, "Wilderness Years", "BBC Books Eighth Doctor Adventures", Against Nature, Iris Wildthyme, Burning with Optimism's Flames, The Enemy of the World, Head of State, The Adventure of the Piltdown Prelate, Tales of the Great Detectives, The Mind Robber, and "Obverse Books’ Black Archive series". And all of these are contained within biographies that are on a sliding scale of serious to absurd that are mixed with biographies of actual in universe characters that ostensibly contributed to the book, for instance, of Xenaria. So it seems the connecting tissue rides on how to interpret that piece of prose. Which is currently being treated as valid, and not the weirdest thing we've done on the wiki. Najawin ☎ 10:08, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

Just... wow. That sounds like an absolutely excellent resource! If you don't mind me asking, what information is given about these in-universe series? (especially the Iris Wildthyme one! Any mention of Paul Magrs...?) Epsilon (Contact me) 10:38, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

Very brief mentions of each, these are pseudo real author biographies. The Iris Wildthyme comment is "Jay Eales [...] edited Faction Paradox: Burning with Optimism's Flames for Obverse Books and has contributed stories to their Iris Wildthyme, City of the Saved and Faction Paradox ranges. [...]" Najawin ☎ 10:44, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

Do you mind if I add this information? (You see, I'm constantly searching for information about the in-universe Paul Magrs and Iris Wildthyme series. Epsilon (Contact me) 10:52, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

I don't, but I caution that to my knowledge Biographies of Authors has only been used as a citation on this wiki once before, on Wilhelm Liebknecht. I'm currently attempting to do a revamp of its coverage on this wiki as part of my work with TBoTE, but it's a prose piece that exists on the line of what might be considered acceptable, and might merit an inclusion debate, even if it's currently valid. Which would need to wait until after the forum stuff is handled. Najawin ☎ 11:00, October 3, 2020 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I am very opposed to the treatment of The Book of the Enemy's author biographies section as in-universe fictional material as a whole. Specific fictional biographies are one thing, but Jay Eales' is another. I've elaborated on my position at Talk:The Book of the Enemy (anthology). – N8 (☎/👁️) 18:29, October 4, 2020 (UTC)

The Thief of Sherwood

I'm fairly certain of this, but I wanted to make sure: Doctor Who (The Thief of Sherwood) currently redirects to this page. Seeing as the story's author Jonathan Morris has confirmed the framing to be a separate meta-fiction universe (Godfrey Porter's World), shouldn't it be split into its own page? Chubby Potato ☎ 04:32, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, indeed! Just a bit of cleanup work that hasn't been performed yet. Although per T:DAB OTHER, Doctor Who (The Thief of Sherwood) should be a redirect… for Doctor Who (Godfrey Porter's World). Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 04:37, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Meta-fiction universes

Do all the meta-fiction universes really need to be detailed here? I feel as if that section can be akin to what is present for this concept on the meta-fiction page, with a {{main|Meta-fiction universe}} and only a brief explanation of what the concept is. The details can all go on their respective pages: Doctor Who (The Girl Who Loved Doctor Who), Doctor Who (TV Action!), Doctor Who (Deadline) (which also appears to be about a character?) and Doctor Who (Godfrey Porter's World) (which still needs to be created). (I'm not sure, but my hunch on why it's so detailed here is because The Thief of Sherwood was initially assumed to be in N-Space and never moved to its own page.) Chubby Potato ☎ 02:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Essentially what you feel, yeah. I don't expect lashings of detail, just brief mentions of each meta-fiction universe, with perhaps a fact or two. Perhaps a little like what I've done with The Doctor in popular culture and mythology#On television, where I wrote a brief summary of the information from each story. There is a lot of work to be done, as this is a less frequently edited section of the Wiki, hence why things like Doctor Who (Deadline) is about the character, with information from only one source, which has been partially incorrectly cited to another story in the same continuity.

Epsilon 📯 📂

03:14, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense

Doctor Who existing within the show itself doesn't make sense, seeing as even if the Doctor does know about the show, then how come his/her companions and other associates do not? They should recgonise the TARDIS and the Doctor and his enemies if they are all iconic sci-fi culture, so why do they not? King of the Sandmen ☎ 18:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, who knows. There could be some sort of perception filter surrounding the series, or it could be bleeding in through from another universe or timeline. Ultimately, it just hasn't been addressed in-universe. The closest an a story has come to explaining it was WC: The Zygon Isolation, which shows Petronella Osgood watching scrolling past episodes that feature a fictionalised version of herself and watching episodes.

Epsilon📯 📂

19:04, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, when the Eleventh Doctor tried to erase all records of himself in Series 7, he might've altered the history of this televsion series, perhaps preventing it from being produced or he could've altered it to become Professor X or something.

Epsilon📯 📂

13:26, 19 May 2021 (UTC)