Talk:The Doctor (Contents)

So is this the Fourteenth Doctor?

I think the authorial intent is fairly clear that this is the Fourteenth Doctor, for the reasons stated in the Behind the scenes note. That being said, the question remains of whether this is enough. Certainly, one item from each incarnation leading up to this one is more direct in-universe hints than there were Eccleston was the Ninth Doctor when Rose aired, yet I don't believe the page was ever "The Doctor (Rose)". But on the other hand, the Wiki has grown a lot since then. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 20:46, September 17, 2019 (UTC)

My main concern, having now seen the illustration in question, is the ambiguity in how those various items are presented. They sit in a sort of over-flowing chest, which (assuming it's not all filled by the unseen length of Four's scarf) might contain any number of items we don’t get to see on the page. Even if we accept that the purse must certainly represent Thirteen (which I might also bring into question —- there's no suggestion in any other story so far that Thirteen carries one), there's no way of necessarily knowing there haven’t been more incarnations in between. In other words, I agree that this Doctor is a future incarnation relative to the television series timeline today, but I'm not so certain this must be Fourteen.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   21:28, September 17, 2019 (UTC)

I have to agree with SOTO. While the intent is certainly there, I don't think there is enough narrative evidence to back it up. Maybe we could revisit this if the Thirteenth Doctor is shown in other sources to possess a handbag or if the description of this incarnation matches the appearance of the Fourteenth Doctor when they appear on television. --Borisashton ☎ 21:38, September 17, 2019 (UTC)

I have seen the illustration but are we even sure that every other incarnations before that point are accounted for? What is supposed to represent the Eighth and the War Doctors? My guess is the following: (I want to be sure that war was skipped and thus maybe some others were too)

1. Signet Ring
2. Recorder and chest (Power of the Dalkes)
3. Screwdriver with unique handle (carnival of monsters)
4. scarf
5. celry
6. cat pin
7. paisley scarf
8. the shoe?
   • war:???
9. 9th/10th doctor screwdriver
10. square glasses
11. Fez
12. guitar
13. bag?

RingoRoadagain ☎ 21:47, September 17, 2019 (UTC)

Well, the War Doctor is the exception to the rule in this anthology. He only appears in a single poem (The Red and the Blue) and is not referenced in any other poem, not even Full Stop which is 12 reflecting on his past incarnations. And anyway, I would have thought that the Ninth Doctor would have disposed of all of the War Doctor possessions considering the horrors he believed he had committed. --Borisashton ☎ 21:52, September 17, 2019 (UTC)

Just a reminder, only admins are permitted to move pages on this wiki (see Thread:128198 for details). The page was moved by a non-admin (not anyone who has already posted here) and I moved it back to allow for discussion. Shambala108 ☎ 02:06, September 18, 2019 (UTC)

@Ringo: Yes, I think the shoe(s) are Eight's. I don't think the chest is specifically the Second Doctor's — the whole point of it in Power is that it's where the Doctor keeps old trinkets, and he was already doing so as the First Doctor, and, implicitly, as other pre-Hartnell incarnations.

For the reasons pointed out by Borisashton, it's perfectly sensible that the War Doctor was skipped; there are tons of other occasions of iconography from "all the Doctors" being called up with no reference to him. (And Boris, it's not just the abomination he "believed" he had committed. Even if we stick with the idea that Day of the Doctor is what had always happened all along rather than time rewritten, the fact remains that it's clear the War Doctor had already committed many atrocities in the War, even if destroying Gallifrey would have dwarfed them all.) --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 11:04, September 18, 2019 (UTC)

just wanna add that our Thirteenth Doctor page currently says this

>The Doctor regenerated into her successor while alone in her TARDIS. (PROSE: Contents)

so we should either remove that or go through with renaming this, to be consistent. NightmareofEden ☎ 13:57, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Merge

As a continuation of the above discussion, should this be merged with Fifteenth Doctor? Aquanafrahudy 📢 20:39, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah. As I detailed on the Fifteenth Doctor's page, the promo pics of Fifteen match the description of "this" Doctor.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

20:41, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

No way was this intended to be the Fifteenth Doctor, no way at all. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 20:43, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

How about we wait until we've seen [spoilers] and then decide? Aquanafrahudy 📢 21:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely nothing in any upcoming project will convince me that RTD had the ability to predict the future three years before he even considered returning to the show. If we're trying to shove our own retroactive perseptions onto this story, the vague description no better suits Ncuti's incarnation than it does the Spy Master's incarnation. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 21:12, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely nobody is suggesting RTD "predicted the future" or whatever the heck, dude. More likely scenario, assuming this is Fifteen, is that RTD simply thought "hey, the few vague physical details I described for this totally throwaway incarnation that I never thought would be revisited can actually kinda-sorta apply to Ncuti so why not have some fun and insert a few nods?" WaltK ☎ 22:36, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Go straight ahead and name the descriptions which acted as nods to Ncuti's incarnation, and then show me proof as to where RTD claimed that this story was the basis for his casting/characterisation of Ncuti. I could say the exact same thing but with Chris Chibnall's idea for the Spy Master's incarnation of the Doctor and I would have far more evidence. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 22:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Writers can come up with a vague idea and later expand on them, even if the later expansion wasn't originally planned; but the later expansion isn't a wholly separate concept! Else we'll be splitting lots of early parts of Moffat's story arcs and the reference of the Timeless Children in The Ghost Monument.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

22:41, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

To answer the initial question; the Contents Doctor's outfit includes elements that Fifteen has been shown wearing in promotional material (boots and stetson), and physically he has short hair. I will admit those do strike me as a bit too vague. I'm definitely inclined to agree that more information is needed before going through with a merge. WaltK ☎ 02:12, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I do not think it's impossible, in principle, to merge this page with 15, though I think a key aspect of that, imo, is that Davies wrote both and was therefore obviously aware of this. However, I too would prefer to wait and see. However, we explicitly know that The World Tree (audio story) is supposed to have 15. No reason not to merge those. Najawin ☎ 02:37, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. The World Tree has the Fifteenth Doctor based on the fact that this is what the writer intended and there is no definite description of clothes. Also, it doesn’t break any license issues as it doesn’t actually explicitly say it is 15. Contents also has the Fifteenth Doctor based on the fact that the outfit chosen for Ncuti clearly is based on the story. No prediction of the future needs to be involved for RTD to put 2 and 2 together and look back on some old content (pun intended) and decide to fit that into the equation. The Spy Master-argument has no foundation and makes no sense for several reasons. Danniesen ☎ 07:40, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

How is Ncuti's outfit "clearly based on the story"? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 12:42, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

...have you even read the poem?

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

13:25, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

That's rather harsh to ask, Epsilon. For all we know they haven't read it due being unable to purchase the anthology and have to rely on this wiki for second-hand information. (I for one had to get in free as a Kindle download when I got the app due to budgetary issues at the time) But, down to business: I for one think the most logical course of action, and the one that abides to the no-spoiler policy, is to keep these pages separate until the Fifteenth Doctor's costume reveal in the television series. After all, as you can see above, we were all convinced the Contents Doctor was the Fourteenth Doctor until the Thirteenth Doctor's clothes regenerated, so how can we be sure Dr. 15 will get his clothes the same way Contents shows? For all we know, he's gonna steal them from a hospital again. In conclusion, we should keep them apart until we have stronger evidence (like the Doctor getting his new cloths from a chest in the TARDIS) or more plausible deniability (like if he gets dressed off-screen). BananaClownMan ☎ 21:31, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

The reason I asked is because @DrWHOCorrieFan began Talk:Fifteenth Doctor completely convinced that Fifteen didn't appear in Contents, so, if he hadn't even read the poem and just assumed he wasn't in it... that's not very advisable! Admins before have said that you should only Wikify sources you have personally consumed, so if you haven't read the poem, how can you know his isn't in it with that certainty?!.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:39, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

(Just as a note, this isn't actually true Epsilon, except for plot summaries - admins have said the exact opposite. See Talk:Lolita. There used to be a rule that you couldn't start inclusion debates without consuming the work in question, and I think we should bring that policy back.) Najawin ☎ 21:53, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh fair enough. But I do think in order to make such definitive opinions you should consume the relevant sources first, or at least say "hey I have doubts that "x" information is correct but I haven't read the story(ies), can the editor who placed this information justify it please?"

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

22:03, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I completely agree with Epsilon. You need to know what you’re doing here and it was clear that DrWHOCorrieFan did not know what he was talking about in this case. If you don’t have knowledge on a subject, maybe you shouldn’t claim what is and isn’t the case in said subject. Danniesen ☎ 15:18, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Finalising merge

So, we now have the beginning and end of the Fifteenth Doctor's post-regeneration; The Giggle ends with him still in the remnants of the Fourteenth Doctor's clothes, and The Church on Ruby Road opens with him in his new clothes, with a narrative gap to insert Contents as him getting his outfit together. Fort an added bonus, the first outfit the Doctor's seen in at the very start of The Church on Ruby Road (after in media res) matches what the Doctor puts on in Contents: a "nice new hat" that could be a Stetson and his shoes are never seen, so they could be the "sturdy boots" he has on the promotional material. With all this in mind, I think we can saftley call in the merger. BananaClownMan ☎ 09:32, 27 December 2023 (UTC)