User:SOTO/Forum Archive/The Time Lord Academy
User:SOTO/Forum Archive/The Time Lord Academy XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Prydon Academy/Thread:123044
Hi all :)
At a bigger wiki like ours, new editors can become overwhelmed with how to even begin editing. So we're gonna try to make things easier. Every day, or just about, a new thread topic will appear in this board about a single aspect of wiki editing. It might be might proper use of grammar, or punctuation or wikitext or just one of our local rules.
Hopefully, by looking at just one thing at a time, it'll be easy for you to retain that little chunk of knowledge.
Of course, if you don't quite understand the daily message, feel free to ask for clarification or amplification. But this isn't a place to challenge what we're saying. If you don't like a rule, go to The Panopticon and try to get it changed. This space is just for explaining the way things currently work.
And, although we may occasionally talk about rules, we'll mostly be talking about relatively uncontroversial things like:
- how to properly use punctuation in certain circumstances
- how to use wikitext to your advantage
- how to use templates
If you'd like us to cover a particular topic, please feel free to leave a message on any admin's user talk page.
To keep down "highlight clutter", we're only going to highlight this first message. Check back often at The Time Lord Academy for new messages!
- SOTO
Brilliant!
...Wait, am I allowed to compliment your idea here?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Prydon Academy/Thread:123048
How do you create a plural link? Let's say you had a sentence like, "The day reminded him of all the Novembers of his life." How would we turn November into Novembers?
A lot of people seem to feel that you have to do something complicated, like a pipe switch. But you don't. It's super easy! Just add an s outside the brackets.
| right | wrong |
|---|---|
The day reminded him of all the [[November]]s of his life. |
The day reminded him of all the [[November|Novembers]] of his life. |
Will [[November|Novembers]] work? Well, in the sense that a link will be created, yes, it "works". But why go through all that typing when all you have to do is add an s outside the brackets?
- SOTO
Just to note, in case you didn't think of it, it also works with any other addition to a word. Like conjugating verbs (as long as all you have to do is add letters, like ing), adding possessive 's, etc... If, at any time, you're simply adding letters to the link, all you have to do is add the letters after the brackets. You can also make nouns into verbs - like, for example, [[sex]]ualise.
(I hope you don't mind me pointing something out here...)
- CzechOut
Well, I was trying to keep the message simple, and just about plurality.
But part of what you say is true.
Yes, it does work when adding suffixes that change the part of speech, so we could turn November into the past participles, Novembered and Novembering, but that's rare English, except perhaps amongst the very wealthy.
Be aware that the system isn't very sophisticated. It will take any letters afterward, so don't think that just because you've got a valid link that the system "approves" of your spelling. Note this train wreck: Novemberajopiuopiupouidaweposdf.
However, it does not actually work for possession, as we can see with November's. Any intermittent punctuation stops the link, or we'd end up with links that included colons, periods, semi-colons or exclamation points.
- SOTO
Hmm, I was half wrong... Glad I posted it, then!
- SOTO
Also, I wasn't suggesting Novembering. More murdering or, say, sexualise, if the word ever came up. Which is an example of even making a noun into an verb using this trick.
- 193.206.107.93
Well. Of cour.se you can do it with that, train wreck. What if the Whoniverse introduced a plot important Gallifreyan named Novemberajopiuopiupouidaweposdf, and Said. Gallifreyan called themselves November for short?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:123128
{{Infobox Magazine}} asks for a cover date, yet for reasons totally inexplicable, many editors don't provide this. So let's examine what a cover date is.
It's the date on the cover. It's not the date the magazine was released. Or the date it "was published'". It's the date on the cover.
Many of our magazine pages are thus wrong or at least confusing.
Also, when giving a date, don't link the month individually.
| right | wrong |
|---|---|
[[1 May]] [[2012]] |
[[1 May|1]] [[May]] [[2012]] |
It's important that we keep our pages consistent on this niggly little point or else we won't be providing much of a service to our readers.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:123742
There is an apparent belief by some editors that it's okay to put pictures where ever desired within a body of text.
This isn't true.
- The proper location of a picture link is on a line of its own, immediately above or below a paragraph.
| right |
|---|
[[file:Picture.jpg|thumb|Caption]] The Doctor then went to Florana. There, he found a number of interesting creatures.Here, there's simply a normal use of Enter between the closing brackets ]] and The Doctor then went...
|
| wrong |
The Doctor then went to Florana. [[file:Picture.jpg|thumb|Caption]] There, he found a number of interesting creatures. The picture call is smack-dab in the middle of a sentence. Never, ever do this, please. [[file:Picture.jpg|thumb|Caption]]The Doctor then went to Florana. There, he found a number of interesting creatures. Here, there's no Enter between the ending bracket and the beginning of the sentence. [[file:Picture.jpg|thumb|Caption]]<br /> The Doctor then went to Florana. There, he found a number of interesting creatures. Here, the |
Burying pictures makes them harder to find. Also, there are conditions under which burying a picture can cause very odd text flow. The page Amy Pond was out of commission for several months in 2010 because someone had buried a few pictures.
- ComicBookGoddess
One issue causing surreal overlaps is putting a picture on very first line of a plot section. The infoboxes coming down from the previous section move everything around, and the problem doesn't show in the preview when you're editing just the section. Best to put that picture a few paragraphs down.
- CzechOut
This needs bumping up again. Seeing a lot of new cases of images being added in the middle of paragraphs. Please don't do this.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
Ooh. I'm one of the offenders to this, I believe.
Hehe. Thanks for posting this, I'll remember in future.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:124059
Which is the proper format for use of a dash as separator on this wiki? I had been going with the spaced en dash, as I'd seen the most of that, but I've recently seen people attempting to approximate the em dash with a double en dash, and removing the spaces from around the en dash when used as a separator. I tried to find a UK style manual or help topic on it, and all I found was that most, but not all, publishers in the UK use the spaced en dash. Examples:
- Spaced en dash: end - but not
- Unspaced en dash end-but not
- Approximated em dash end--but not
- Shambala108
Unspaced dashes are not dashes, they are hyphens. Someone has recently been changing the dashes to hyphens; I've changed some back but I haven't caught them all.
Double dashes are rarely used, and I have seen them corrected.
The single dash is often used, and of your three choices is the most correct, but there is a longer dash, that I don't know how to make, that is the preferred choice. Hopefully someone who knows how to make it will see this thread.
- ComicBookGoddess
The longer dash, or em dash, is produced by ALT + 0151 in Windows or OPT + - in Mac.
... And you're saying this should be used with a space before and after.
- Shambala108
Yes, that is what I have seen admins on this wiki use.
- CzechOut
Please note that if you're asking a question about grammatical/typographical use, you should use The Panopticon. Time Lord Academy is only for admin use. There, we explain what are the rules and best practices of the wiki. We've never set any specific rules about dashes, so therefore this is a question, not a statement or clarification of policy.
- ComicBookGoddess
Sure! You should note that the absence of a declaration to that effect on the description of the forum led to my error. It should be a reasonable request, then, that you make this policy clear in the description of the Time Lord Academy.
- CzechOut
Um, the description of that board at Special:Forum does say exactly what I just said:
- Just like its namesake, this board is our primary educational forum. The admin staff use it to highlight short tips on grammar, wiki editing, or local policies. Don't scrape by with 51% on the second attempt!
Do you feel that this is actually ambiguous or did you just not read the second sentence carefully? I'm not opposed to rewriting it if it needs clarity, so please do advise of a wording that would have better gotten your attention.
- CzechOut
On the broader point of this thread, do you — and I'm using the plural you here — think that a policy on dashes should be added to the T:PUNC series?
- ComicBookGoddess
I see what you mean, but when compared to "Tales from the TARDIS", which states flat out "do not start threads here", yeah, it's a bit ambiguous. The difference implied that if somebody starts a thread asking a question about grammar, usage, or spelling, the admin will answer it.
- ComicBookGoddess
CzechOut wrote: On the broader point of this thread, do you — and I'm using the plural you here — think that a policy on dashes should be added to the T:PUNC series?
Well, that's where I looked for it first when I saw that user removing spaces. :)
- CzechOut
Just for clarity on a point made above, true dashes (or em-dashes) in OS X — since at least 10.3 — have been made with Shift Opt -.
Opt + - actually produces two characters, the simple en-dash (–) and the inequality sign (≠).
Of course, it's super easy to set up a Mac to always simply replace -- with —, so that you don't even have to use any special key presses at all. It'll just make the proper em dash (or © or ® or ⅞ or ⅔ or whatever) as you type.
- CzechOut
To sorta echo user:Shambala108:
This thing here - is not a dash under any circumstance. Where there be spaces around it or not, that is a hyphen.
This thing here – is also not a "proper" dash. It's an en-dash. I personally think it would be simpler if we just outlawed its use entirely, because the chances are people are not going to be able to grasp when to use it and when not.
The use of two hyphens, as with --, is what people did on typewriters in substitution for a "true dash", which they could not make. The "true dash" is an em-dash. It's clearly longer than a hyphen in the way that an en-dash is not. Here's the difference in the way these two things look:
- The Doctor said he was coming back – quickly.
- The Doctor said he was coming back — quickly.
To my eye, the em-dash looks like a proper dash, whereas you'd really have to compare the en-dash to a hyphen to know that it wasn't a hyphen. Here they are, side-by-side:
- hyphen - en-dash – true dash —
The other problem with allowing an en-dash is that there is no standard typographical definition of it. An em-dash has a specific mathematical relationship to a hyphen in any font; an en-dash doesn't. It's just sorta "between" a hyphen and a dash.
- ComicBookGoddess
So your preference is for the em-dash, the one that's not on the standard keyboard? Or do I have them mixed up? If I don't, that's logistically problematic, to say the least.
- CzechOut
The real question before us is the matter of the spaces. When I started out on Wikipedia at the top of the last decade, I used no spaces. People would come behind and insert spaces, so I gave up and started adding them, even though I personally think it looks like rubbish.
However, towards the end of the 2000s, Wikipedia decided to do something that I think is even more confusing. They basically agreed that when using an em-dash, you should not use spaces. But then they said that if you were using an en-dash, you should use spaces. (See WP:MDASH.)
Basically they now see em-dashes and en-dashes as syntactically equivalent, but that you should use spaces with one but not the other.
To the ordinary editor who is not terribly obsessed with typographical issues — that is, practically everyone — this is nothing short of madness.
It would be much easier to administrate if there were simply a single rule.
So I'm in favour of this:
- en-dashes forbidden
- a single em-dash only is allowed
- no spaces
So this would be correct:
- Lambert told her superiors in no uncertain terms—and almost in defiance of the then-conventional wisdom about her financial acumen—that the TARDIS prop could be amortised over the course of several months to bring the show in at budget.
- SOTO
CzechOut wrote: So I'm in favour of this:
- en-dashes forbidden
- a single em-dash only is allowed
- no spaces
So this would be correct:
- Lambert told her superiors in no uncertain terms—and almost in defiance of the then-conventional wisdom about her financial acumen—that the TARDIS prop could be amortised over the course of several months to bring the show in at budget.
Sounds fine to me, except that: how are we, and especially new editors, supposed to know how to produce such m-dash. I highly doubt that we can create some sort of shortcut within the wiki itself, so how are editors expected to know how to do this? And, if the only way of doing so is by clicking around five buttons, it doesn't sound very appealing. I predict that people, even if they know how to do it, will simply get lazy.
- CzechOut
SOTO, I don't mean to sound harsh here. But you are always asking questions that are answered in the full text of the thread. Can you please reduce our workload by reading the entire thread before asking questions?
- SOTO
I did read the entire thread, thank you very much. An em-dash, from what I gathered, can be accessed by Shift Opt - on Macs and Alt 0151 on Windows. Like CBG said, it can't be accessed on a regular keyboard. Hardly preferable.
Am I missing something again? (sorry if you're annoyed)
- SOTO
And yes, I also read about how you can set something else (ie. --) to become a m-dash. But when are new editors told to do this?
- Eladkse
(Started before last two posts)
CzechOut wrote: SOTO, I don't mean to sound harsh here. But you are always asking questions that are answered in the full text of the thread. Can you please reduce our workload by reading the entire thread before asking questions?
The question was "how are editors supposed to know how to to produce an em-dash?"
While you made a comment on how such a em-dash can be produced, you lacked the Windows instructions. On Microsoft Windows, an em dash may be entered as Alt+0151, which is a bit of a hassle if you ask me.
However, I think SOTO's main point was that it isn't intuitive with the standard keyboard layout (certainly the case with Windows), and that it is difficult to expect users to comply with such a policy.
Even if users were fully aware of the difference between the types of dashes (after reading the entire thread, I'm still not 100% on how they should be used), and which ones TARDIS allows, laziness and the cumbersome keyboard commands would likely mean the policy is ignored.
- CzechOut
SOTO, within the context of this one thread, my last comment was probably ill-judged. But within the broader context of your forum participation, you do tend to ask a lot of questions that have been answered in full elsewhere in the thread. I apologise for being intemperate, but it is very frustrating to offer a special round of clarification just for you. All I'm asking is that you please read things a bit more closely, and that you phrase questions so that you're asking for precisely the information you need.
- ComicBookGoddess
CzechOut wrote: People would come behind and insert spaces, so I gave up and started adding them, even though I personally think it looks like rubbish.
Gotta confess I have the opposite feeling about the aesthetics of it - I always thought the push-together without the spaces looked kind of rubbish, as it's far too close visually to the hyphen.
- SOTO
ComicBookGoddess wrote: Gotta confess I have the opposite feeling about the aesthetics of it - I always thought the push-together without the spaces looked kind of rubbish, as it's far too close visually to the hyphen.
Yes, I'm actually with him on this one. I just didn't feel it was worth the fight.
To Czech: sorry, I'll word my questions more carefully, and reread the entire thread to make sure it hasn't been answered, in the future.
To everyone: I am having trouble producing an em dash in the first place. I'm on Google Chrome on Windows 7.
Alt 0151 = nothing
Ctrl Alt 0151 = still nothing
At least ten other methods that I gathered from a Google search = nothing.
Help!!
- ComicBookGoddess
SOTO - I suspect you're either not holding the ALT key down or not using the number pad... Am I wrong?
- CzechOut
Well, it's less work for me if we stay with the current de facto standard of, "Sentence — interlocution — sentence continues." If you guys would prefer the space, I'm not going to fight any harder than saying that it runs counter to the default. We're already crazy enough to use italics where quotation marks are actually indicated; one more offence against the typographer in me really doesn't matter all that much.
But I'd have to insist that it be one way or the other — not one way and the other.
- ComicBookGoddess
If we don't want to have to be fixing them all the time, we should go with what most people seem to be using.
- SOTO
ComicBookGoddess wrote: If we don't want to have to be fixing them all the time, we should go with what most people seem to be using.
What "most people seems to be using" is a hyphen with spaces.
But, with hyphen replaced with m-dashes, the spaces option does seem to be the wide-spread one, hence the one that will requite less clean-up.
Plus, it would be a simple bot run to just replace " - " with " — "
To CBG: Thanks, I got it. I was doing it right, but, for some reason, it still wasn't working. After a restart, it's working now.
- CzechOut
There's gotta be something less inconvenient on the Windows side than entering a pin number. I know simple text conversion is available in Microsoft Word for Windows. Surely browsers can be set to do that if Word can. I'll poke around at some point to see if we can get something simpler.
- CzechOut
SmallerOnTheOutside wrote: Plus, it would be a simple bot run to just replace " - " with " — "
So you're running a bot now are you? Funny, I don't seem to remember requesting a bot for you.
- ComicBookGoddess
Well, cut and paste or the character map app - but god knows where that app is in Windows 8. Plus, neither is really easier. (Of course, iPad doesn't like to let me hit the apostrophe twice in a row, so there are challenges everywhere.)
- SOTO
So you're running a bot now are you? Funny, I don't seem to remember requesting a bot for you.
I wasn't... no... I was just suggesting what seems to be the easiest method of mass-fixing. Obviously using the only bot at our disposal, yours. Unless you, for some reason, oppose to that.
- SOTO
ComicBookGoddess wrote: Well, cut and paste or the character map app - but god knows where that app is in Windows 8. Plus, neither is really easier. (Of course, iPad doesn't like to let me hit the apostrophe twice in a row, so there are challenges everywhere.)
Oh yeah, I hate that on an iPad. That's why I don't usually bold or italicise on either my phone or iPad. It's really annoying!! (By the way, in Settings, you can set another button or few letters to automatically become '' or '''. Contact me on my talk page if you want help with that.)
On the actual topic, I'll look for a custom way of doing so on a Windows.
- ComicBookGoddess
Oh! I know how to do that, I just didn't think of it. :)
- Eladkse
CzechOut wrote: There's gotta be something less inconvenient on the Windows side than entering a pin number. I know simple text conversion is available in Microsoft Word for Windows. Surely browsers can be set to do that if Word can. I'll poke around at some point to see if we can get something simpler.
Even if browsers could be set to do something similar, it would require users to go through the effort of setting it up in the first place.
- SOTO
ComicBookGoddess wrote: Oh! I know how to do that, I just didn't think of it. :)
:-)
Also, if you hold down on the comma button, it becomes an apostrophe. Do this twice or thrice, and it works fine enough.
- ComicBookGoddess
Yes, for it to be effective, it would have to be something that users who thought otherwise wouldn't have to think about.
- Digifiend
ComicBookGoddess wrote: Well, cut and paste or the character map app - but god knows where that app is in Windows 8.
Start>All Programs>Accessories>System Tools>Character Map. Same place as on 7 and Vista in other words. http://www.chacha.com/question/where-to-find-the-character-map-on-windows-8
- SOTO
So. Where are we on this one? It's been over a week. Have we reached a consensus? Have we decided on the following formatting?
- "Sentence — inter-locution — sentence continues."
If so, when will this be implemented?
- CzechOut
SmallerOnTheOutside wrote: So. Where are we on this one? It's been over a week. Have we reached a consensus? Have we decided on the following formatting?
- "Sentence — inter-locution — sentence continues."
If so, when will this be implemented?
Well, that is currently the de facto rule anyway. It's not really correct, typographically, but the question remains whether a rule can be imposed that Windows users have a problem with. I guess the answer is probably no—thanks for yet more crappy design, Microsoft!—but I'm not prepared to close this discussion just yet.
There may be an easy way for Windows users to work around. Honestly, I haven't had time to do much research on the issue.
- SOTO
I've personally gotten used to typing Alt 0151 since this discussion.
While I'm sure there's a way to set an auto-replace (like "--" to "—"), users would have to go out of their way to do this, assuming they actually know to do this...
- ComicBookGoddess
You might be cheered somewhat to realise that spacing before and after the dash is consistent with the method you want to reinforce for entering headers in an article, where you space after or before the equal sign. ;)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:126910
THIS IS A TEST
- CzechOut
THIS IS A TEST
- CzechOut
NO, THIS IS A TEST
- CzechOut
Oh my God it's bloody magic
OH MY GOD IT'S BLOODY MAGIC
Is it really magic?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:127678
If you're just joining us, or you've returned after a long absence, it's worth remembering that this wiki community chooses to exercise tight control over the technicalities of its image uploads. There are plenty of warnings around the joint, but each time Doctor Who returns to our airwaves, we find that people manage to ignore them. So to save us all a lot of time, let me highlight what is said elsewhere.
Take the time to carefully read:
some of the most important points of which are:
- photos and screenshots must be jpgs or pngs — not any other format
- images should be no narrower than 420px
- infobox images must clearly illustrate their subjects at 420px widths
- files must be appropriately licensed
Failure to comply with the cheat sheet, any policy linked therefrom, or our image guide can lead to immediate blocking, largely to prevent you from wasting your time uploading things that will inevitably be deleted.
- Mini-mitch
I'm going to bump this up and hopefully attract more attention to it by saying:
Before uploading an image for an recent episode, please check it has not already been upload. Do not duplicate files.
- Bruna k
kkkkkkkkkkkkk
- CzechOut
As mentioned in any number of places, image licenses are required on all uploads. If you don't add a copyright, your file is subject to deletion at any time, without warning.
Automatic, random deletion of all unlicensed images occurred within the last 24 hours, and will be done again as needed. Manual deletion of images without licenses happens all the time.
- ElpisGalaxy
If someone breaks those rules and you block them, let them know why you did.
- Digifiend
As noted at Thread:130517, image uploads are currently disabled.
- ElpisGalaxy
I realize that now.
- CzechOut
Who was blocked? We're not blocking people for attempting to upload images. We're just not letting the upload go through.
- ElpisGalaxy
Nobody was blocked. I was just confused. Sorry.
- 2.31.162.43
Some apparently spurious revisions to files like the one at http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/File:Annual71.jpg?oldid=1362301 keep appearing on reports. What exactly has been revised, as the file appears to be the same one as in 2008?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:129358
{{NameSort}} is a helpful little template which should be added to the bottom of almost every page about an individual — real world or otherwise. It automatically sorts the page within categories along the proper lines. (And, yes, it is still necessary and effective even though we've got some — backup — javascript category sorting going on.)
There are, however, two special "edge cases" I wanted to highlight today.
Multi-word job titles[[edit] | [edit source]]
If you have a person who is known by a multi-word job title, rather than a true name, do not use {{NameSort}}. The perfect example of this problem is Television announcer (The Chase). If you use {{NameSort}}, it'll return a pattern of "announcer, Television The Chase". This is not a particularly helpful sorting. So if you leave {{NameSort}} off, the sort will be at "Television announcer (The Chase)" — which is what we want.
Note this problem is only for multi-word job titles. {{NameSort}} should be used:
- where the job title is only one word, like Waitress (Random Shoes)
- where a proper name precedes a dab term, like Adam Smith (director)
- and in practically every other case
People with prepending articles[[edit] | [edit source]]
This being the Doctor Who universe, there are plenty of characters who follow the naming pattern of the Doctor. You know the type: the Master, the Monk, the Rani. As long as they have only one word other than the article in their name (excluding any dab terms), then you can use either {{NameSort}} or {{TitleSort}}. However, if they have multiple words, then you should use {{TitleSort}}. This is such a rare case — because it's heavily discouraged to have the in a PAGENAME — that I can't actually think of any examples.
But here's the theoretical difference. Imagine there were a page called "The John Smith". If you used {{NameSort}}, you'd end up with a sort key of "John Smith, The". That would clearly be undesirable. {{TitleSort}} would instead result in the proper "Smith, John The}}.
Generally, stick NameSort on every page[[edit] | [edit source]]
As the {{NameSort}} documentation makes clear, it's a versatile little template which works in almost every case. You're encouraged to read that documentation to learn more.
- 78.8.132.222
"This is such a rare case — because it's heavily discouraged to have the in a PAGENAME — that I can't actually think of any examples."
The War Chief?
- Anoted
Since namesort and titlesort can be used interchangeably except when titlesort is preferred, what is the purpose to namesort? Is there ever a reason to use it ahead of titlesort? If not, why don't we only use titlesort?
- CzechOut
They can't be used interchangeably. {{TitleSort}} is much more limited. The only thing it does is get rid of precedent articles. {{TitleSort}} is in no way a replacement of {{NameSort}}. It's kinda in the name: {{TitleSort}} is for titles, {{NameSort}} is for names. The only area of overlap is that some characters in the DWU go by titles rather than proper names. In these cases, it's marginally better to go with {{TitleSort}}, though you can use {{NameSort}}, so long as it's a one word name following the article.
In other words, The Doctor will be sorted properly using either {{NameSort}} or {{TitleSort}}. However, something like The War Chief is only sorted properly using {{TitleSort}}.
Again, please read the template instructions if you want more info. {{NameSort}} has a wide variety of examples and explains that template's precise functionality in some detail.
- Anoted
I've read both and I'm clearly missing something. What does NameSort do differently than TitleSort that is beneficial to names?
- CzechOut
Are you serious? You've read both of those instructions, including the linked forum message at {{TitleSort}}, and you really don't have even an idea of the difference between the two?
- Anoted
No, I'm pulling your leg. I regularly act stupid for shits and giggles. Could you be more insulting?
I understand the intended use of each template, that has been made quite clear. But this post was specifically about the precise ways in which these templates function that make use of TitleSort preferable to NameSort in certain instances. What I don't understand is how NameSort functions in way preferable to TitleSort. I don't what makes using NameSort better.
At the very end, you say: "As the NameSort documentation makes clear, it's a versatile little template which works in almost every case." Except when TitleSort works better. You say that they can't use them interchangeably and that TitleSort is much more limited. What I'm asking is how. What's the technically difference? If NameSort works better the majority of time can you give an example to show me how.
Maybe I'm missing something completely obvious. Maybe I know everything about how they work and am just failing to put 2 and 2 together. But I'd like to know how they work and so I'm asking. And you're insulting me for that.
- CzechOut
Please do not assign negativity to my posts, when it is also possible to simply read the questions flatly and without emotion. I am not your enemy, and I have no interest in insulting you.
I don't know you from Adam, nor do I pretend to know your sense of humour. So I was genuinely asking if you were being serious, because when I look at the instructions, I think they are abundantly clear. But if you have a suggestion on how to make them more clear, I'm genuinely interested in your comments.
At {{TitleSort}}, and elsewhere in this thread, I've stated that the only thing {{TitleSort}} does is to suppress a, an and the.
At {{NameSort}}, it's well demonstrated with a number of examples exactly what the template does, and what its limitations are.
So, if you would, please reread the instructions, and give me some specific notion of what it is you're not understanding.
- Anoted
You've provided examples of names and shown how NameSort sorts them and how TitleSort sorts them. This shows a difference between how they work and where it is appropriate to use TitleSort for a name.
You then said that TitleSort is inappropriate for most names because it works differently. Can you provide an example of a name that TitleSort will sort incorrectly? The problem is that I don't see what NameSort does that makes it preferable to TitleSort. An example would really help.
- CzechOut
As its instructions say, {{TitleSort}}'s only, sole, singular function is to suppress a, an or the as found at the beginning of the name. That's it. That's all it does. If the name doesn't contain a prepending article, {{TitleSort}} does nothing. At all. In any way.
The name Sarah Jane Smith contains no articles. Thus, {{TitleSort}} will have no effect. Only {{NameSort}} will do anything.
In other words, {{NameSort}} is 100% preferable to {{TitleSort}} in the case of ordinary names.
The issue in the DWU that this thread was partially highlighting is that some characters aren't known by names, but rather titles — the Doctor being the most obvious example. In this case, where a person is known by a title, {{NameSort}} and {{TitleSort}} have the same apparent result, though they arrive at that destination via different routes.
- {{TitleSort}} says, "Oh look! The word the. I better put that behind the word Doctor."
- {{NameSort}} says, "Oh look! Two words separated by a space. I better put the second word in front of the first one."
I think from re-reading this discussion that the problem you're having is that you fundamentally misread the original post.
Your initial contribution to this thread said:
- Since namesort and titlesort can be used interchangeably except when titlesort is preferred, what is the purpose to namesort? (emphasis added)
And I think you've kept that stuck in your head. But the thing is, my original post doesn't in any way say that {{NameSort}} and {{TitleSort}} are generally interchangeable. In three of the four sections of my post, I flatly say, "Use {{NameSort}} in almost every naming situation." Indeed, the central point of my post is that you should use {{NameSort}} except for these two edge cases.
- Anoted
But here's the theoretical difference. Imagine there were a page called "The John Smith". If you used {{NameSort}}, you'd end up with a sort key of "John Smith, The". That would clearly be undesirable. {{TitleSort}} would instead result in the proper "Smith, John The}}.
No I'm thoroughly confused. Going back to using "The John Smith" as an example. You said in the first post that TitleSort would result in "Smith, John The" but your last post suggested that TitleSort would result in "John Smith, The". Which is it?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:129463
We have a variety of templates for indicating when a whole article needs attention. Most editors are probably aware of {{delete}}, {{update}}, {{merge}}, {{cleanup}} and the like.
But you may not know about our simpler templates for marking individual sentences for review. If you've ever used Wikipedia, you'll recognise the style of these templates, and maybe even one or two of the names. But here's a list of some very useful "little" templates:
This wiki has a number of templates which put small, inline statements within the body of articles that seek specific improvements in articles. These include:
- Attribution request templates
- Categorised into articles with statements that need more specific attribution
- Primary documentation at {{says who}}
- These all do the same thing, but put different, contextually-appropriate phrases into the body of the article:
- Clarification request templates
- Categorised into articles with statements that need clarification
- This indicates that a statement, as worded, makes so little sense that you can't figure out how to improve it. It's not meant as a statement of incredulity. You're not saying with this that you don't believe the statement. You're saying that it's so poorly written that you have no idea what the statement means.
- {{what}}
- Source request templates
- Categorised into articles needing citation
- These templates challenge the veracity of a statement, to one degree or another, by indicating that the statement needs better sourcing:
- {{fact}} or {{source}}
- {{disputed}}
- {{facts}}, categorised into articles needing additional citations
- Cult_Of_Skaro
- Ktmaster
Hello cos. i didnt even no anyone visited this wiki. i thought i was the only one who did, but im not. thnx, cos 4 sharing that wonderful comment.
-Ktmaster
- Doctordoom61
cool
- ElpisGalaxy
Kinda confusing.
- Rith ShadowBlade
IKR?
- Brian Boy
Ok
- OfficialDJPON3
-_-
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:131641
Although we do normally prefer British English around here, there's one important exception: quotation marks. Due to some of the vagaries of the MediaWiki software, it's generally better to prefer the use of double quotation marks.
Please do not use single quotation marks, or "inverted commas", unless you are quoting within a quote.
| good | bad |
|---|---|
The Doctor said, "It's time to go to [[Gallifrey]]." |
The Doctor said, 'It's time to go to [[Gallifrey]].' |
The Doctor asked, "Does he have to knock 'four times'?" |
The Doctor asked, 'Does he have to knock "four times"?' |
The Doctor called his ninth life "fantastic". |
The Doctor called his ninth life 'fantastic'. |
Please do not try to emulate the quotation marks used in DWU material. The fact that you will find instances of single quotes used in various publications doesn't allow you to violate this editorial decision.
For reasons of consistency, it's important that we don't have single quotes in one instance and double quotes in another.
- Whosethebestwho
Just one minor thing: the punctuation should go inside the quotation mark, no?
- SOTO
Yeah, that is the English rule. Although probably the rule least followed by our editors. In fact, when I do minor edits, that's almost always what I'm fixing.
- CzechOut
Whosethebestwho wrote: Just one minor thing: the punctuation should go inside the quotation mark, no?
No, not always. Ending punctuation — a period, question mark or exclamation point – only goes within the quotation mark when the quote is of a full sentence. If all you're doing is quoting a word or a sentence fragment, then the punctuation goes outside the ending quotation mark.
So, in our first example, the period is within the quotation mark. In our second, it's within the ending quotation marks, but not the interior quotation mark. And in the third, it's just fully outside the quotation mark.
These examples were sort of deliberately chosen to also show something about ending punctuation position, but the main point is just to go with double quotes on the outside and single quotes only when "quoting a quote".
Another way of thinking about it is that you put the ending punctuation within the quotes only when that punctuation applies to the sentence being quoted. A good example to add to this list, if we were stressing punctuation position, would be:
- The Doctor asked, "What time is it?"
Note here that the statement as a whole is not a question. That's why we put the question mark inside the quotation, because the question mark only applies to the quote.
- Kelnius
Dear Universe,
There's no such thing as "single quotation marks". That's just an apostrophe that you're using wrong. Yours Sincerely, The Absurd Word Nerd.
P.S. If someone is quoting from a Doctor Who novel, do we correct any grammatical errors, or reproduce the words exactly? (Not to plagiarise of course, but I've seen stuff written from the blurb of such books). It probably doesn't matter, since they'd use proper quotation marks for the most part, I'm just curious the site's policy on grammatical accuracy vs. historical posterity.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:136448
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:137091
Does anyone else want the writers of Doctor Who to reveal the Doctor's name?
- SOTO
We use our forums only to discuss the editing of our articles, and we most certainly do not discuss possible spoilers.
Please bring your question elsewhere, such as Gallifrey Base. Thank you.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:142395
From today, please do not use <tt>[[Template:title|title]]|<i>Title of work</i></tt> any more. Instead, please just use <tt>[[Template:title dab away|title dab away]]</tt>. That's it. That's all you have to put at the top of the page: Luckily most [[T:PRE|preloadable page formats]] already come with <tt>[[Template:title dab away|title dab away]]</tt> enabled, so you shouldn't have to think about a thing! == Dive deeper == <tt>[[Template:title|title]]</tt> is being wholly retired, because it creates a mess like this: [[file:MyWikiaDoctor.jpg|500px|thumb|center|Here's a clip from the MyWikia app. See how it reprints the title of the page and then puts that awkward "left" in there? <tt>[[Template:title|title]]</tt> is bad news, man.]] For that reason, we need to switch to this base code: <span class="mn"></span>. <tt>[[Template:title dab away|title dab away]]</tt> is being changed to incorporate this language. There might be a few times — as with people like [[the Doctor]] and [[River Song]] and [[SS Bernice|SS <i>Bernice</i>]], where you'll have to use <span class="mn"></span> directly, but in general, you should be able to use <tt>[[Template:title dab away|title dab away]]</tt>. bites the dust" overrides earlier display title "The Time Lord Academy/The Doctor's Name".
- SOTO
So, just to confirm, we now have to use {{DISPLAYTITLE:"{{PAGENAME}}"}} if we want quotation marks? Hundreds of pages (songs, poems, etc...) need quotation marks, so can't we just get another template for this?
- CzechOut
Yep, that would be the raw code for placing something in quotation marks.
As for how many pages actually need this, I think you're overestimating. It's not really "hundreds of pages". It's about a hundred pages total that have names in quotation marks. Those that already had {{title}} implemented have been switched over, so no pages actively need switching now (though a few may never have had {{title}} properly emplaced).
I can see that a template might grease the wheels here, as it were. If ya want a template for future use, I could come up with one fairly easily. Any particular name you want (that's not {{title}})? Maybe {{name}}? Or {{page}}? I dunno which you'd prefer, or if you have a name that you think more sensible.
- SOTO
Well, the entire contents of Category:Songs (and subcats) and Poetry from the real world at the very least all need quotation marks. And I'm sure there are many other scattered examples that I can't think of at the moment. Alone, that's around 180 pages. Apparently, at least 80 of those should have quotation marks but don't. I have been meaning to go through those cats to ensure they're all quoted.
So, yeah, I do think a quotation marks equivalent of {{title dab away}} would be helpful for the nearly 200 pages that need it (and I'm sure many more to come — there is so much undocumented poetry quoted in the DWU!).
As for replacing {{title}}, I don't really see why we can't just continue to use that template name, but replace its contents with something simple like {{DISPLAYTITLE:{{{1}}}}}. But I'm sure you have your reasons...
- CzechOut
Yeah I hear you on continuing to just use {{title}}. In some ways, it's definitionally silly not to have just kept the template and changed its contents. However, I'm basically protecting a legacy of code. {{title}} has a wider Wikia meaning, and I don't want to confuse things by changing its meaning here. It's well known amongst admin on some other wikis, as well as Wikia Staff (since its creator now works for Wikia), so when having technical discussions, as I've been having today, it's kinda useful for "{{title}}" to have a standard meaning.
Besides, I've already changed the links, so we might as well just go ahead and create something new.
Did you have a preference for a title for the new template?
- SOTO
- CzechOut
How about {{retitle}}?
- SOTO
Actually, yeah, that's a good one. 'Cause that's essentially what you're doing with it: retitling the page. And it's only two more letters than the original. Sounds fine to me.
- CzechOut
- SOTO
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:144094
From today, please do not use <tt>[[Template:title|title]]|<i>Title of work</i></tt> any more. Instead, please just use <tt>[[Template:title dab away|title dab away]]</tt>. That's it. That's all you have to put at the top of the page: Luckily most [[T:PRE|preloadable page formats]] already come with <tt>[[Template:title dab away|title dab away]]</tt> enabled, so you shouldn't have to think about a thing! == Dive deeper == <tt>[[Template:title|title]]</tt> is being wholly retired, because it creates a mess like this: [[file:MyWikiaDoctor.jpg|500px|thumb|center|Here's a clip from the MyWikia app. See how it reprints the title of the page and then puts that awkward "left" in there? <tt>[[Template:title|title]]</tt> is bad news, man.]] For that reason, we need to switch to this base code: <span class="mn"></span>. <tt>[[Template:title dab away|title dab away]]</tt> is being changed to incorporate this language. There might be a few times — as with people like [[the Doctor]] and [[River Song]] and [[SS Bernice|SS <i>Bernice</i>]], where you'll have to use <span class="mn"></span> directly, but in general, you should be able to use <tt>[[Template:title dab away|title dab away]]</tt>. bites the dust". So, I want to ask you all a question and here is it.
1. Who Has Been Your Fave Doctor So Far And Why?
2. Who's side would you be on, The Doctors or Deleks?
3. How many seasons have you watched so far?
4. What things do you like about the series?
I am like curious what will your answers be?
- SOTO
We do not use our forums here for general discussion. The Time Lord Academy, for example, is for admin to give editing tips.
I would recommend you take your questions to Gallifrey Base, a forum completely dedicated to this kind of discussion. Thank you.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:146212
So this is what they called Early-Bird Cameo. Maybe this will become a tradition.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:148148
Since we've had a lot of new users join us in the last month or so, it's a good time to review our image rules. With a wiki of this size, we have had to enact several policies regarding the uploading and use of images. It's a good idea to review our various image policy pages, which can be found in the following places:
- Tardis:Image use policy
- Tardis:Guide to images
- Tardis:Images and perspective
- Help:Image cheat card
- Thread:127678
Please note that all images must have a license. There is absolutely no exception to this rule. Any image without a license will be deleted. Period.
- Shambala108
In addition, please note the proper placement of images on a page as detailed at Thread:123742.
- Amorkuz
Technical tips from admins on how to compress images to required 100k without losing quality ( from a recent discussion elsewhere):
1) "Jpg images have a "quality" value. Just dropping that from 100 to 80 can cut in half the file size with no notable difference. Pixlr is a super easy to use free online tool that lets you do that, and almost all image editors should have that capability." Courtesy of PicassoAndPringles. Comment: Preview on Mac OS X does not seem to have this capability.
2) "you should be able to accomplish the task easily with http://tinypng.com. (Although the site stresses its ability to shrink pngs, it also handles jpgs quite well.)" Courtesy of CzechOut
- Bwburke94
I feel pngcrush is preferred for PNG compression, but that's just my opinion.
I don't know what your budget is, but there are a ton of options for you.[1] You can get "proper" Photoshop for about $10/month. Or you could buy Photoshop Elements outright. Though I'm not sure of the price for students, it goes for $99 retail. (You could almost certainly buy an older, cheaper version on Ebay if that's too steep for you.)
There are any number of apps in the App Store which will offer genuine compression, so many that it would be laborious to list them all here. Just to give you a ballpark, though, things like Compress cost about $5.
Or you could do any of a number of free online compressors, like the one I mentioned above, or the even-easier-to-remember http://www.resize-photos.com.
- ↑ As always, understand that no products or services mentioned here, or anywhere on this wiki, are warrantied in any way by, nor are they any sort of "official recommendation" of, either myself or Wikia. Any purchase or usage of any product mentioned are done at your own risk to your funds, computer, images or other personal property.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:148731
I made a change to {{Infobox Story}} some time back which I forgot to publicise, so lemme correct that now:
- The
nextvariables in a series should never be left blank. This creates an ugly "hole" in the infobox. Instead, enter the initialism TBA.
You can see this in operation now at The Time of the Doctor (TV story).
- GusF
What should we use for ranges which are finished and very unlikely to be resumed? Should we just leave it blank?
- Shambala108
I (and others) have been using "none".
- SOTO
...which is precisely what the template is expecting, by the way. If you put in anything but "TBA" or "none", then whatever you put in will by default be linked and italicised (and truncated if it has a story dab term at the end).
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:153478
So here's a cool thing. Now we can directly call images on Wikipedia. (Well, Wikimedia Commons, actually, but it's close enough to the same thing.) To do it, all you do is call an image just as if it were resident here at Tardis. For example wikipedia:File:Wikipedia.png can be called here by typing:
[[file:Wikipedia.png]]
Imagine how much time this is going to save us on our cast and crew pages! Now we can use images that are better legally for us to use, but with almost zero expense of time. Therefore, the goals of our out-of-universe image policy are going to be even easier to attain!
If you have any questions about this feature, be sure to leave them below.
- Digifiend
What happens if a Wikipedia image and Tardis image have the same name?
- SOTO
That's actually a good question. I'm actually just guessing here based on a similar system across DW wikis, but I'm fairly sure it first searches Wikimedia Commons, and then our database. This is probably not what we want; I'm sure we've got plenty of images of the same name, or images that were originally from WP but were adapted/cropped to better fit our image guidelines.
But again, this is mostly speculation, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
- CzechOut
Digifiend wrote: What happens if a Wikipedia image and Tardis image have the same name?
In short, Tardis wins, which is what we want.
This is the local file:Elisabeth Sladen crop.png, not commons:file:Elisabeth Sladen crop.png.
That feature is different to Commons sharing, however. If you were to go to w:c:drwho.answers and try to upload a file called Elisabeth Sladen crop.png, you would get a warning that the file already exists. Why does it exist? Because it's here at Tardis. However, drwho.answers users can override our images. It'll just take a bit for the cache to clear and their version of the image to surface.
With this Commons sharing, local is king. There are no warnings that you're using the same filename as a commans file. And local images are immediately viewable.
So the two types of repository are, in fact, quite different.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:156010
How do I add different wiki's to my profile list of favorite wikis?
- Digifiend
Go to your profile page, hover over the top right below the blue bar, and EDIT should appear. Click on that and a dialog box will pop up. At the bottom, it'll say "Wikis you've contributed to:"
- The Wrath Of Eight
Thank You!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:159516
It appears that many users don't know what constitutes a minor edit. The full answer is at Tardis:Edit summary, but a good rule of thumb is that if you are adding or removing content, it is not a minor edit.
- HarveyWallbanger
Got it! --HarveyWallbanger ☎ 15:56, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
- Kai Ell
- FemaleDoctorPHD
OKAY!!!
- Shambala108
It is not necessary to reply to announcement posts. Thanks.
- FemaleDoctorPHD
okay, thanks
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:171448
Please note that, per Tardis:Cast lists, the "Cast" section of story pages must follow the actual credits of the original transmission of a story. This means that uncredited cast are never to appear in the "Cast" section of story pages.
However, if there is a valid source verifying an actor's presence in a story, then he/she is added to a subsection of the "Cast" section, along with a footnote linking to the valid source. This subsection should be labelled "Uncredited". (See the cast list for Deep Breath for an example.)
In addition, if a page is created for an uncredited actor, it must include at least one valid source per role.
- Shambala108
It seems that I need to remind users of our policy regarding what to do with uncredited cast. The rules are as follows:
- Uncredited cast members shall only appear in a section clearly labelled "Uncredited cast"
- The "Uncredited cast" section shall appear under and as a subsection of the "Cast" section
- Names in the section shall only be added when citation has been found for them.
These rules were established in May of 2012 in Forum:What to do with uncredited cast lists, and I have added these rules to Tardis:Format for audio stories and Tardis:Format for television stories.
Unsourced uncredited cast is subject to removal, so if you have added unsourced uncredited cast to any story, television, audio, whatever, please add a source.
- Thefartydoctor
If this is about the Uncredited in Technophobia, the source I'm using is the Big Finish Behind the Scenes for the special edition boxset I'm using right now. If I need to create a citation, how would I write it?
- TheChampionOfTime
Would it be ok to have a "Characters with unknown actors" section on pages?
- Amorkuz
Thefartydoctor wrote: If this is about the Uncredited in Technophobia, the source I'm using is the Big Finish Behind the Scenes for the special edition boxset I'm using right now. If I need to create a citation, how would I write it?
I believe there is a special prefix, BFX, for them. So I would cite them as BFX: Technophobia. Or must it state that it's the special edition extras?
- Amorkuz
Now I myself have a question. In the scripts it is sometimes clearly stated that these two characters are to be played by the same person. How to record that?
- Amorkuz
Let me be more specific and I'd appreciate an advice on what to do with two roles. The script for Time Reaver has the following "Dramatis Personae"
These are, therefore, intended to play by two actors (Rone and Florian by one; Dorn, Busker and Receptionist by another). Rone and Dorn are in credited cast; Dan Starkey states in BFX that, apart from Dorn, he plays the Busker. He does not specifically mention the Receptionist. Neither does Terry Molloy specifically mention Florian. So how should a source for actors playing Florian and Receptionist be stated---SCRIPT: Time Reaver?
If you have a question about a specific story page, please ask on its talk page. If you have a general question about the policy, ask an admin or start a thread on Board:The Panopticon. If you have something you think should be added to the policy, like in post #4, start a thread on Board:The Panopticon. Thanks!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:172032
I actually wanted to talk about something else this week, but I've recently encountered some editing behavior that needs fixing. In particular, when multiple sources are referenced in one paragraph, some editors are lumping all the sources at the end of the paragraph. Look at the following two examples:
the right way to cite:
- The Fifth Doctor played cricket, (TV: Black Orchid) but he also occasionally handed out jelly babies (AUDIO: The Roof of the World) and wore glasses for which he had no medical need. (TV: Time Crash)
the wrong way to cite:
- The Fifth Doctor played cricket, but he also occasionally handed out jelly babies and wore glasses for which he had no medical need. (TV: Black Orchid, Time Crash; AUDIO: The Roof of the World)
As stated at Tardis:Citation, "In the bad example, readers won't know which thing happened in which story. The good example makes that clear by putting each citation closer to the relevant factoid."
Please see Tardis:Citation for more details on the proper citation of references.
- ~xXSpottedgorseXx~
Ahh, because the citations could be in the wrong order with which the paragraph and episode happened. And yes I am new.
- Листик
А я ничего не понимаю!
- ~xXSpottedgorseXx~
What? If that is Russian, I don't understand.
- ~xXSpottedgorseXx~
Whatever. I have no more to say in this conversation.
- Листик
Sorry it's so unexpectedly got. I accidentally got on this wiki and came here. I did not think that here speak English.
- Shambala108
In general, it's not necessary to respond to posts in the Time Lord Academy forum, but I did want to address this one. It's not just that the items could be in the wrong order. Even if they're in the right order, the wrong paragraph in the example above gives the impression that the Doctor plays cricket in all three stories, when it's just the first.
- SniperKing1
^
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:177443
Please forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this. I checked the wiki's typography and punctuation guides but did not see it addressed. I notice that most pages seem to place the period before a citation that comes at the end of a sentence, leaving the parenthetical hanging. Perhaps this is a British convention of which I am not aware, but a Google search did not reveal it to me. Most systems of parenthetical citation I have encountered would have the period FOLLOW a citation at the end of a sentence, just as a comma or semi-colon might in the middle of one. It seems to me the citation is part of the sentence and should not be left hanging in the space between the end of one sentence and the beginning of the next. Please advise as to the reason, if any, it is being done this way here. Thank you.
- Shambala108
Both Tardis:Citation and Tardis:What does a citation mean? show examples of how we require in-universe citations to be done, and that is with a period before the citation in parentheses. Now that doesn't answer your question of why we do it this way.
If a reason has ever been given (and my sometimes faulty memory tells me that I have seen it somewhere on this wiki), it would be rather hard to find. However, I do know that in the early days of this wiki, the admins and other users often took the Star Trek wiki as an example. From what I can tell, they cite their stories the way we do.
- Side Rat
Firstly, thank you for your reply.
I don't think it's proper, and that isn't merely an aesthetic personal opinion. It's inconsistent both with established systems of parenthetical citation such as MLA and APA formats (just for example, not that the goal here is to follow or emulate them specifically) and internally, as we would never place a punctuation mark such as a comma or a semicolon before a citation in mid-sentence. A period should be no different. Punctuation preceding parentheses is in general a no-no in both American and British English as far as I have been able to discern. It doesn't seem to be the result of a difference in conventions such as those governing punctuation and quotation marks. The fact that another unrelated wiki might be making the same error doesn't seem good enough reason to continue making it ourselves.
I'm certainly not going to go about trying to change this on my own, but we should find some sort of consensus in the community and remedy it (through the use of a bot if possible, I should think). What would be the most appropriate forum/procedure to begin working towards accomplishing this? Thanks again for your advice.
Side Rat wrote: as we would never place a punctuation mark such as a comma or a semicolon before a citation in mid-sentence.
Actually, that's pretty standard right now as well. I can't speak for whether or not it's "proper" — and we literally have a protocol saying all full stories should be italicised regardless of actual grammatical rules because it was decided in the forums, so it doesn't seem like we're too bothered about what's proper — but I must say, from an organisational perspective, on this wiki, the current formatting does make sense.
I say this because the paranthetical citation is not just for the sentence preceding it in most cases. Citations (in DWU articles, that is) are stories here, so it would make complete sense to have a full article on a place, object or character, and to have to cite the whole thing with one source at the end. Having a citation follow all punctuation, at least to me, is saying "all that came between the last citation/start of page and the end of this previous (part of) sentence falls under this citation." Not just the meat of a singular sentence, which an internal citation would sort of be "part of"?
I can't know if any of the above was considered when the initial decision was made, as I don't know all the history, but, in my opinion, it works quite well as is, and effectively demonstrates exactly what we want the citations to represent.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:178213
what year did the original dr. begin?
- OttselSpy25
1963
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:181384
I've done page edits before, but I've never added a citation. How does one go about that? I haven't tried on Wikipedia, and the only edits on other Wikia sites were either minor ones, or were extremely informal, and didn't require citations. On the wiki I got started on, everyone pretty much already knew everyone and the Admins would remove misinformation and block the users responsible as soon as it came up.
- PicassoAndPringles
This wiki's citation guidelines can be found at Tardis:Citation. Happy editing!
- ErinKenobi2893
Thanks so much! :-D
- Shambala108
Also make sure you check out Tardis:Valid sources to see what kinds of sources we use for in-universe and real world articles.
- ErinKenobi2893
Okay. :-)
Also, is there a resource for determining whether a common trope is actually canon or fanon? I know there's got to be some sort of canon hierarchy, as there used to be with Star Wars (aka, movies had precedence, then press releases and interviews with Lucas, spin-off media and the separate/alternative Legends continuities, in that order), so I'm pretty sure that if a spin-off source contradicts an in-episode reference the episode takes precedence, but what takes precedence if two spin-offs contradict each other? There are also conversations I've had with fellow fans where I can't verify some of the things they mention--is there some sort of resource for determining what's canon and what's merely rampant fanon? I sometimes write fanfiction, both in print format and for a fan film (which I am desperately hoping works out, because it would be the absolute coolest thing I'd have done,) which is part of the reason why I'm concerned about finding the difference between fact and urban legend. Sorry if the comment was unclear. I sometimes have difficulty in expressing myself. It makes me wish I knew more than one language and could converse with people in multiple languages.
- Shambala108
In general, the DWU doesn't have an official canon. Therefore, we as a wiki don't have a canon policy either. We generally allow most stories, but there are a few exceptions. The exceptions and our rules for what we do and don't include are located at Tardis:Valid sources. If you'd like to know more about canon and the DWU, you can read Tardis:Canon policy and Canon.
In addition, we have no hierarchy. (This wiki started in 2004, when there was no current television series, but there were tons of audio, prose and comic stories.) Therefore, all stories are treated with the same importance on this wiki. See Tardis:Neutral point of view for more on this.
As for how we treat conflicting stories, we usually say something like this:
- According to one account, X happened. Another account stated that Y happened.
Any more questions, or if I wasn't too clear, just ask.
- ErinKenobi2893
Okay! Thanks. :-)
One of the things I was unable to verify was the Gallifreyan healing coma. It's mentioned almost universally among the fans but I can't find it on here. Ironically, it's the same with a "healing trance" in Star Wars material, which in the fanon is almost constantly used as a plot device to facilitate faster healing for Force-users. (I think that the rumored healing coma may have been invented by Tumblr, actually. :-S) So, basically, just approach it with some healthy skepticism, since it doesn't seem like it can be verified, and make sure to know where it comes from and cite that, if it's going in an article. Thanks. :-)
- Shambala108
Coincidentally, one of the story articles I'm working on right now, The Nine-Day Queen, has the Doctor putting himself into what he calls a "restorative coma". Plus, if you go the coma page, there's information from other stories on the healing coma as well, just not under the name you mentioned.
If you have questions about story details like that, we have a specific forum where you can ask your question and other users might be able to help. It's located at Board:The Reference Desk.
- ErinKenobi2893
Huh. Maybe it should be referenced in the article on Gallifreyan physiology as well. Okay! Thanks! :-)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:185211
Can someone tell me if you're tired of having soul.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:186303
Okay, im here because i was wodnering about the issue with the mutliple instaces of Cyber leaders in the Tardisw wiki, i can see the logic of having seperate entries for the Cybus Cyberleaders and the main universe cyberleader, the Cybermen that are unique like the Cyberlord from the next Doctor or even the individual cyber leaders that had names such as Kroton, or but I'm not sure if it is wise to have a cyberleader entry for each episode. Are we going to do a Cyberleader entry for ervy Cyberleade that appeared in the books and audios and videos?
- Bwburke94
They are separate individuals. We can give them separate pages if they are all major enough characters to deserve pages, and our line for "major enough" is set very low.
- Sclera1
o ok, just wanted to make sure, thank you
- Shambala108
Please note that BWBurke94's post is his opinion. This is a valid discussion.
- Bwburke94
My opinion is that they are major enough to have separate pages. What is not my opinion is that they are separate individuals.
- Sclera1
does that mean that there will be an article for the dalek supreme that appeared in planet of the daleks?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:194952
Hey guys :)
Because there are some things which cannot currently be displayed on mobile devices, some of our pages inevitably look a little different on phones than they do on desktop. Also, there are some Wikia features which are not now — nor will they ever be — available on Monobook.
Because we do have a substantial mobile readership, there's a bit of a need to explicitly name one of the versions of a page the "correct" one. Logically, the desktop version, as seen in the Oasis/Wikia skin, is the one we're now declaring to be the definitive version of any page.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:195121
I cant wait for bill to make her debut. is anyone else excited???
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:197860
It is very difficult to read the text. The colour should be darker; maybe a red colour instead of a pink colour.
- Shambala108
Please note that Board:The Time Lord Academy is for admins to post information. The board for technical difficulties is Board:The Drax Cave (to which I've moved this post).
- Affirmation
Shambala108 wrote: Please note that Board:The Time Lord Academy is for admins to post information. The board for technical difficulties is Board:The Drax Cave (to which I've moved this post).
Oh, my apologies. I was quite confused and thought that I might’ve posted this in the incorrect forum. I didn’t read the forum description well enough.
- SOTO
So it seems you took that screenshot from the mobile skin, am I correct? It's perfectly readable on both skins (light-on-dark + dark-on-light) on desktop because of a green background, and the thing is: it's readable for me on mobile, too.
I'm just not seeing what you're seeing.
Could you specify what device and browser you're using?
- SOTO
I should also specify that if this is a mobile issue, there's really little we can do about it at Tardis; it'd have to be taken up with Wikia via a Special:Contact/bug.
- Affirmation
I am not using a mobile device.
I’m using Google Chrome.
I did, however, try this in incognito mode, and this is what I saw:
For that reason, this is probably an issue with my global.js or global.css.
Edit: I actually removed the NewDiffStyle script from my global.css, and now I see what I saw in incognito mode. I guess the NewDiffStyle script is interfering with this wiki’s (presumably) modified NewDiffStyle script. I don’t want it to disable it for every wiki, though; however, I’m unsure as to whether or not I can disable it on certain wikis only.
- SOTO
I can tell you that anything on User:PapiDimmi/wikia.css will only affect this wiki. Overriding every one of those changes manually might not be that quick a process, though, so you might want to just add something to your personal CSS to change
.diffchangeto a different colour to make it more visible with the diff style you've already got. - PicassoAndPringles
NewDiffStyle has been deprecated.
NOTICE: As of the September 1st, 2016 release, this functionality has been backported by Wikia and is available by default. As such, this stylesheet is no longer required.
- Affirmation
PicassoAndPringles wrote: NewDiffStyle has been deprecated.
NOTICE: As of the September 1st, 2016 release, this functionality has been backported by Wikia and is available by default. As such, this stylesheet is no longer required.
Oh? That’s awesome.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:200906
Now that Class has hit out screens, it's time again for a reminder about images on Tardis. The quickest way to get an overview of our image rules is our image cheat card. Some of the most important rules are:
- photos and screenshots must be jpgs or pngs — not any other format
- images should be no narrower than 420px
- infobox images must clearly illustrate their subjects at 420px widths
- files must be appropriately licensed
Any images that don't follow these simple guidelines are subject to deletion.
Another thing to keep in mind: promotional images are never allowed on in-universe articles like character pages. We always want images from the episode itself.
The long-form version of our image rules can be found at Tardis:Image use policy and Tardis:Guide to images.
- Scrooge MacDuck
Question: why the JPG/PNG rule? A PNG image's as good as a JPG image from the end user's point of view. I don't really see why it should matter.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:213632
There can be some confusion over whether to use the {{Rename}} or {{Speedy rename}} tag when requesting a page move.
As explained on Template:Speedy rename, the {{Speedy rename}} "marks pages that have obvious, non-controversial errors in their titles for swift renaming." This usually applies to pages that have been improperly named per Tardis:Disambiguation or Tardis:Naming conventions (or have been misspelled by the page creator). These are pages whose rename doesn't require any discussion. If there is any question about why a page should be renamed, or what it should be renamed to, then you must use {{Rename}}.
Instructions for using the {{Speedy rename}} are pretty simple, and explained at Template:Speedy rename, but are printed here for convenience:
{{Speedy rename|new=new name|links=yes or no|user=name of user proposing the change}}
- new: the proposed new name (be sure to proofread for spelling)
- links: if all links have been moved, type "yes"; otherwise, type "no". There are no other choices allowed.
- user: this is the user name of the user proposing the change. If you did not propose the change, but you change the links, do not change the name. The name allows an admin to contact the user who proposed the change if necessary.
Finally, as always, please remember that only admins are allowed to move pages on this wiki. Details are explained at Thread:128198.
- TheChampionOfTime
Message received
This is primarily for pages such as a character going unnamed in a first story but receiving a name in a later story. Letting the admins know this information would speed (sorry no pun intended) up the process.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:217959
<tt>[[Template:imdb name|imdb name]]</tt> has now been upgraded so that you don't need to add the <code>name</code> variable when the person's name is disambiguated. So you <b>used to</b> have to type: on a page like [[Adam Smith (director)]] Now, you no longer have to do that. You can just type: In fact, please <b>do not</b> use the <code>name</code> variable at all. :) Thanks! :) template upgraded" overrides earlier display title "The Time Lord Academy/Using the speedy rename tag".
- NarnianAslan1
good
- XxDachshundxX
Ok
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:224731
<tt>[[Template:imdb name|imdb name]]</tt> has now been upgraded so that you don't need to add the <code>name</code> variable when the person's name is disambiguated. So you <b>used to</b> have to type: on a page like [[Adam Smith (director)]] Now, you no longer have to do that. You can just type: In fact, please <b>do not</b> use the <code>name</code> variable at all. :) Thanks! :) template upgraded". I just discovered this site BBC Genome while trying to verify a Radio Times listings for Boom Town.
You need to click the advanced tag to narrow the search to year range and to TV.
For example:
Some of this info I know is available elsewhere, but it might help for researching and confirming some things that aren't.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:230793
Yo wassup
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:237284
So I'm relatively new here so I'm wondering what the policy on dating articles is here on the Wiki. I'll use the stories The Sands of Life and War Against the Laan as examples.
So in these stories there is no specific date given, however it is mentioned that the position of President of Earth was first created 75 years ago. Meanwhile, from An Earthly Child we know that the president of Earth was made a regular role at some point between the end of the Dalek Invasion of Earth (2167) and 2190. Is this sufficient information to date the story as the 23 Century?
Thanks for any advice.
P.S. in an Earthly Child its the President of the Earth Council, but I think we can assume this to be the same as the President of Earth, just like we assume the title the President of the High Council of Gallifrey to be the President of Gallifrey.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Time Lord Academy/Thread:238917
If you want to make an article for something like a real world thing that is completely minor or doesn’t have much significance (a food, a device, a piece of equipment, etc.) does the thing in question actually need to be referred to by name within the story where we see it for it to get an article?
Random example: a character is seen using a blender, but they never refer to the device by name, would that give one enough grounds to go and create a “Blender” article?
- CzechOut
Unfortunately, there's not a completely universal answer to this question. In a sense, it's a case-by-case thing. So this is going to be a long answer, but it won't even cover every case. As a general rule, if you're in doubt, please ask an admin directly.
I'll start with the example you asked about. Do we need someone to say it's a blender if it is obviously a blender? Nah. We don't need the script to specify that a clock on the wall is a "clock", or a dog is a "dog" or a car is a "car".
A good example from "The Woman Who Fell to Earth" is the iPhone that Yaz' superior officer is using when speaking with her. It's clearly an iPhone. We see the Apple logo. We don't need to be told that it's an iPhone, particularly as the name "iPhone" was previously established by another source. However, if we didn't see the logo, it would be more problematic to say it's an iPhone, even if we were familiar enough with iPhone design to establish that it was an iPhone based on, say, camera position/design. But even with the logo concealed, it would at least be a "phone" or a "mobile phone".
In other cases — like, say, a song that's playing on the radio in a scene — it's not a bad idea to add a "behind the scenes" section at the bottom of the article where you say something like, "This song is not explicitly named in the episode, but it was featured prominently enough to establish that it was, in fact, 'Paperback Writer'."
Where we run into the most difficulty is if it's something geographical in nature, largely because the whole point of location filming is often to make a real place double for something fictional.
For instance, the interior of the Welsh Parliament building is pretty obviously seen in "The Lazarus Experiment". But we shouldn't call it that, because — within the narrative — it's plot-vital that the location be in Southwark, London.
In other cases, the real location is meant to be the fictional location as well. For instance, we unproblematically started an article on the London Eye in 2007 based solely upon what was seen in "Rose". That's because the story took firmly took place in Central London, and the Eye was an important part of the story.
But there are other instances where a story might be identified as having taken place in, say, London, yet the buildings used for exteriors aren't what they really are in real life. "The Seeds of Doom" for instance uses BBC Television Centre itself as the fictional "World Ecology Bureau"!
That's why we've discouraged editors from looking at establishing shots and creating articles for every location they recognise from real life.
So a good rule of thumb with real locations that aren't explicitly named is to only create articles for things that are plot-vital.
- CzechOut
Huh. I was looking at a stale copy of this page and didn't see that Shambala had directed the conversation towards the forums. So lemme lock this thread and point everyone towards https://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:238917
- Shambala108
I'm assuming your question applies to the articles you created at Remission and Chemotherapy, for which I changed the intros. It wasn't so much the creation of the articles, but you defined the terms using real-world language. If a story doesn't define a term, we don't use real-world language to define it; see the changes I made at those two pages to see how to handle it.
For an example of a story defining a term, if you look at the article Vegetable, the Doctor specifically defines the word in the story, so that definition is part of the article.
- CzechOut
Exactly. That's a point I should have made, Shambala108, but didn't, because I originally wrote my reply over at the Discussions version of this question. And it's worth emphasising.
There's a big difference between creating an article and writing it. The writing of it should observe T:NO RW in that details not given about an thing in the story shouldn't be added to that article.
So, can you say that the police officer in The Woman Who Fell to Earth "talked with Yasmin Khan on his iPhone"? Or if it were 2007 could we start the London Eye article with something like, "The Nestene Consciousness one used the London Eye as a transmitter, as the Ninth Doctor and Rose Tyler discovered in 2005."
Absolutely.
What you can't do is say something like, "The iPhone was released in 2007 under the leadership of Steve Jobs, by the Cupertino-based Apple, Inc." Or: "The London Eye was a filming location for the James Bond movies, Skyfall and SPECTRE."
- TheFatPanda
It just occurred to me, one page I created a year ago, Whitewashing, contains the definition. I don’t recall it actually being described in-universe, but nobody has changed it yet, so...?
- Shambala108
So...?
We have 66,000+ articles, and only two admins and half a dozen users on regular clean up duty. Things fall through the cracks, and I think it's a conservative estimate to say that half of our articles need some kind of cleanup.
As a negative example, we had an edit conflict regarding the specific model of tanks used to shoot down a Racnoss Webstar in The Christmas Invasion. Some tank experts could not agree which model it was. But a tank layman like myself could not evaluate their arguments, and for the story it made zero difference. It was a tank, is all.
This comes back to the primality of the plot. Real-word knowledge (RWK) contradicting the plot of the story is not allowed. RWK irrelevant to the story should be considered very carefully. Same goes for too many details in RWK.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY Warning: Display title "User:SOTO/Forum Archive/The Time Lord Academy" overrides earlier display title "The Time Lord Academy/Random question about making articles".
