Bots, emailconfirmed, Administrators
34,286
edits
More actions
Forum:Temporary forums/Inclusion debates speedround (view source)
Revision as of 20:38, 25 April 2024
, 25 AprilUpdating links from Series 10 (Doctor Who) to Series 10 (Doctor Who 2005)
Tag: 2017 source edit |
m (Updating links from Series 10 (Doctor Who) to Series 10 (Doctor Who 2005)) |
||
| (7 intermediate revisions by 3 users not shown) | |||
| Line 930: | Line 930: | ||
=== Part 0 - Should this Speedround have existed? === | === Part 0 - Should this Speedround have existed? === | ||
I don't think this format is ''inherently'' ill-suited to inclusion debates, particularly so long as we are operating with only six slots. [[User:NateBumber]] was seen to wonder if he had set a nasty precedent with the multi-sectioned structure of [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Subpages 2.0]] — but more than anything else, the precedent here is [[Forum:The original inclusion debates]], the ancestors of them all, which were conducted in a very comparable format. So long as we are discussing stories any ''one'' of whose validation would be a trivial matter<ref>Note that I mean trivial in the vernacular sense, not the epistemological sense [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] is fond of employing.</ref>, the basic consolidation of different inclusion topics into one big three-weeks thread seems like a basically sound instinct. | I don't think this format is ''inherently'' ill-suited to inclusion debates, particularly so long as we are operating with only six slots. [[User:NateBumber]] was seen to wonder if he had set a nasty precedent with the multi-sectioned structure of [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Subpages 2.0]] — but more than anything else, the precedent here is [[Forum:The original inclusion debates]], the ancestors of them all, which were conducted in a very comparable format.<ref>[[User:Najawin]] calls me out, I think in hindsight fairly, on this comparison not taking into account that [[Forum:The original inclusion debates]] grew organically over a very long period; so it was quite a different animal from nine topics proposed at once and discussed in parallel within a bounded three-week time-span. He's quite right and I should have thought about this more. Apologies.</ref> So long as we are discussing stories any ''one'' of whose validation would be a trivial matter<ref>Note that I mean trivial in the vernacular sense, not the epistemological sense [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] is fond of employing.</ref>, the basic consolidation of different inclusion topics into one big three-weeks thread seems like a basically sound instinct. | ||
Nate is speaking to a real concern when he notes: | Nate is speaking to a real concern when he notes: | ||
| Line 951: | Line 951: | ||
It's also the easiest one for me to close: it had pretty clear consensus, and my fellow admin [[User:SOTO]] already put in a pseudo-conclusion. | It's also the easiest one for me to close: it had pretty clear consensus, and my fellow admin [[User:SOTO]] already put in a pseudo-conclusion. | ||
{{quote|I think the Moffat quote, along with the in-text effort to find a place for this minisode within the final narrative (ie. the psychic paper bit), are more than persuasive enough.<br>Against the previous ruling, my stance is that this shouldn't count as a deleted scene, since it was ''already released'' as its own complete narrative.|User:SOTO}} | {{quote|I think the Moffat quote, along with the in-text effort to find a place for this minisode within the final narrative (ie. the psychic paper bit), are more than persuasive enough.<br>Against the previous ruling, my stance is that this shouldn't count as a deleted scene, since it was ''already released'' as its own complete narrative.|User:SOTO}} | ||
To briefly go through this in more detail: this is the ''opposite'' of a deleted scene. This is a narrative short which was filmed ''first'' as its own production; and which Moffat then decided to remake as part of ''[[The Pilot (TV story)|The Pilot]]''. It was not written as a scene from ''The Pilot'', filmed as a screen test, and then reshot with changes; it was created as its ''own'' production, and only later did Moffat decide to rework it into ''The Pilot'', with the explicit purpose of making it "fit" with the narrative arc of [[Series 10 (Doctor Who)|Series 10]]. | To briefly go through this in more detail: this is the ''opposite'' of a deleted scene. This is a narrative short which was filmed ''first'' as its own production; and which Moffat then decided to remake as part of ''[[The Pilot (TV story)|The Pilot]]''. It was not written as a scene from ''The Pilot'', filmed as a screen test, and then reshot with changes; it was created as its ''own'' production, and only later did Moffat decide to rework it into ''The Pilot'', with the explicit purpose of making it "fit" with the narrative arc of [[Series 10 (Doctor Who 2005)|Series 10]]. | ||
If it had not been "remade" in ''The Pilot'', this would have been valid long ago as a [[minisode]]; or if not, it would have been valid weeks ago as a narrative trailer, anyway. Its relationship to ''The Pilot'' is the only thing putting Rule 4 into question — but Moffat's quote clarifies that the entire reason he put it into ''The Pilot'' was ''in order'' to try and "make it fit". And that in the final analysis, even though he only inserted the beginning into the episode, he does view it as giving the whole of the short a place in continuity. | If it had not been "remade" in ''The Pilot'', this would have been valid long ago as a [[minisode]]; or if not, it would have been valid weeks ago as a narrative trailer, anyway. Its relationship to ''The Pilot'' is the only thing putting Rule 4 into question — but Moffat's quote clarifies that the entire reason he put it into ''The Pilot'' was ''in order'' to try and "make it fit". And that in the final analysis, even though he only inserted the beginning into the episode, he does view it as giving the whole of the short a place in continuity. | ||
| Line 1,031: | Line 1,031: | ||
=== Part 4: Fourth wall stuff === | === Part 4: Fourth wall stuff === | ||
This was one of the most controversial things in the whole Speedround, and for good reason: "fourth wall breaks" are a very blurrily defined concepts. So I'm goingto try and disentangle the whole mess. But first, let me clarify, as I did with the crossovers, that '''it is not and has never been policy that a fourth-wall break is ''in itself'' a reason for | This was one of the most controversial things in the whole Speedround, and for good reason: "fourth wall breaks" are a very blurrily defined concepts. So I'm goingto try and disentangle the whole mess. But first, let me clarify, as I did with the crossovers, that '''it is not and has never been policy that a fourth-wall break is ''in itself'' a reason for invalidity'''; rather, it's an extension of [[Tardis:Valid sources#Rule 4|Rule 4]], a piece of circumstantial evidence about authorial intent, albeit, historically, what has been deemed very ''strong'' evidence, perhaps too strong. This is why ''Doctor Who'' TV stories get "special treatment" here without injury to [[T:NPOV]]: it is ''beyond doubt'' that the writers of ''[[The Daleks' Master Plan (TV story)|The Daleks' Master Plan]]'' and ''[[Before the Flood (TV story)|Before the Flood]]'' intended them to be set in the DWU; no amount of in-story evidence could prove otherwise. Whereas things are very different for a narrative trailer or a ''Lockdwon'' webcast or even a charity minisode; those ''are'' sometimes intended to be set outside the DWU, the scenario is not in itself absurd. So it must be examined. | ||
Now, as to the many kinds and varieties… | Now, as to the many kinds and varieties… | ||
| Line 1,037: | Line 1,037: | ||
First there is the basic notion of talking generically to the camera/audience interaction. Treating ''that'' as in itself evidence of Rule 4-breaking has led us astray and should not stand as policy. ''[[A Message from the Doctor (webcast)|A Message from the Doctor]]'' clearly ought to be valid, and always should have been. It's an in-universe transmission the Doctor is sending out in the middle of an adventure; the diegesis of the DWU isn't even ''actually'' being pierced here. And this applies to a lot of what OttselSpy refers to as "interactive fiction"/"audience participation". ''[[The Runaway (video game)|The Runaway]]'' or ''[[Attack of the Graske (video game)|Attack of the Graske]]'' aren't doing any fourth-wall-breaking in the sense of acknowledging a metafictional ''Doctor Who''/the Doctor's own fictionality; they're ''just'' framed in such a way that a nondescript "you" is kept "off-screen", inviting the viewer or player to imagine themselves in the diegetic character's shoes. But the Doctor isn't Watsonianly talking to you out of a TV show; there's just someone actually standing there in front of them whom you're standing in for, as in ''The Runaway'' which ''explains'' how "you" came to be in the TARDIS. '''These should be valid by default unless there are other parameters in play.'''<ref>After some reflection I think this includes ''[[Time Is Everything (TV story)|Time Is Everything]]''; the [[Time is Everything (feature)|print tie-ins]] explicitly treat the situation as "the Doctor has been hired to make commercials for Superannuation", so he's genuinely filming commercials in the TV shorts, not just generically talking to camera. And he is introduced there in terms of "he's a real live time-traveller," not "you know him from beloved show ''Doctor Who''", so there isn't really a fourth-wall problem at all. If there are Rule 4 concerns they lie elsewhere, and the presumption should be validity unless prove otherwise, as with everything else.</ref> | First there is the basic notion of talking generically to the camera/audience interaction. Treating ''that'' as in itself evidence of Rule 4-breaking has led us astray and should not stand as policy. ''[[A Message from the Doctor (webcast)|A Message from the Doctor]]'' clearly ought to be valid, and always should have been. It's an in-universe transmission the Doctor is sending out in the middle of an adventure; the diegesis of the DWU isn't even ''actually'' being pierced here. And this applies to a lot of what OttselSpy refers to as "interactive fiction"/"audience participation". ''[[The Runaway (video game)|The Runaway]]'' or ''[[Attack of the Graske (video game)|Attack of the Graske]]'' aren't doing any fourth-wall-breaking in the sense of acknowledging a metafictional ''Doctor Who''/the Doctor's own fictionality; they're ''just'' framed in such a way that a nondescript "you" is kept "off-screen", inviting the viewer or player to imagine themselves in the diegetic character's shoes. But the Doctor isn't Watsonianly talking to you out of a TV show; there's just someone actually standing there in front of them whom you're standing in for, as in ''The Runaway'' which ''explains'' how "you" came to be in the TARDIS. '''These should be valid by default unless there are other parameters in play.'''<ref>After some reflection I think this includes ''[[Time Is Everything (TV story)|Time Is Everything]]''; the [[Time is Everything (feature)|print tie-ins]] explicitly treat the situation as "the Doctor has been hired to make commercials for Superannuation", so he's genuinely filming commercials in the TV shorts, not just generically talking to camera. And he is introduced there in terms of "he's a real live time-traveller," not "you know him from beloved show ''Doctor Who''", so there isn't really a fourth-wall problem at all. If there are Rule 4 concerns they lie elsewhere, and the presumption should be validity unless prove otherwise, as with everything else.</ref> | ||
Then, there are "monologues to camera". These still don't acknowledge the fiction, ''per se'', but the character really is talking "to the camera", not to some in-universe element (whether a live audience or an in-universe camera) that we the real audience aren't allowed to observe directly. In this category we find ''[[Introduction to SJA (webcast)|Introduction to SJA]]''. ''[[Death of the Doctor (trailer)|Death of the Doctor]]'', ''[[Doctor Who and the Ambassadors of Death (trailer)|Doctor Who and the Ambassadors of Death]]''. These are tricky, but on the whole the thing with these is that they're valid, but not as things which actually happen. You have to think of these as similar to theatrical asides. The character non-diegetically turns to the camera and describes, from their own, in-universe perspective, their current situation and feelings. Those feelings are valid; the fact that "the Third Doctor once turned to no one at all and started monologuing about the ongoing crisis while frowning", isn't. This is similar to the current parameters of the validity of ''[[She Said, He Said: A Prequel (webcast)|She Said, He Said]]'', and it can also be compared to prose or audio with a first-person narrator who's not actually intended to have committed these words to paper at any specific point in-universe. Such sources document a ''point of view'', not actual ''events''. '''As a rule, these should also be valid, although it is not uncommon for things of their type to break the fourth wall in other, more concerning ways.''' The thing we're calling ''[[Luckily for me, I have a time machine (TV story)|Luckily for me, I have a time machine]]'' seems to be a similar thing, and an example of one which is ''not'' a trailer. It describes the Doctor's mindset, and should be valid in ''that'' mode, but we shouldn't be saying "at one point the Eleventh Doctor literally walked through a mysterious landscape made of gears". | Then, there are "monologues to camera". These still don't acknowledge the fiction, ''per se'', but the character really is talking "to the camera", not to some in-universe element (whether a live audience or an in-universe camera) that we the real audience aren't allowed to observe directly. In this category we find ''[[Introduction to SJA (webcast)|Introduction to SJA]]''<ref>Although this one is ''not'' hereby ruled valid because I'm having doubts about how in-character the actors even ''are''. I think this one bears discussing further even if we grant that a monologue-to-camera can be valid in principle.</ref>, ''[[Death of the Doctor (trailer)|Death of the Doctor]]'', ''[[Doctor Who and the Ambassadors of Death (trailer)|Doctor Who and the Ambassadors of Death]]''. These are tricky, but on the whole the thing with these is that they're valid, but not as things which actually happen. You have to think of these as similar to theatrical asides. The character non-diegetically turns to the camera and describes, from their own, in-universe perspective, their current situation and feelings. Those feelings are valid; the fact that "the Third Doctor once turned to no one at all and started monologuing about the ongoing crisis while frowning", isn't. This is similar to the current parameters of the validity of ''[[She Said, He Said: A Prequel (webcast)|She Said, He Said]]'', and it can also be compared to prose or audio with a first-person narrator who's not actually intended to have committed these words to paper at any specific point in-universe. Such sources document a ''point of view'', not actual ''events''. '''As a rule, these should also be valid, although it is not uncommon for things of their type to break the fourth wall in other, more concerning ways.''' The thing we're calling ''[[Luckily for me, I have a time machine (TV story)|Luckily for me, I have a time machine]]'' seems to be a similar thing, and an example of one which is ''not'' a trailer. It describes the Doctor's mindset, and should be valid in ''that'' mode, but we shouldn't be saying "at one point the Eleventh Doctor literally walked through a mysterious landscape made of gears". | ||
Now we come to the really tricky stuff: "fourth wall breaks" in the sense of actual, material acknowledgement of ''Doctor Who'' as in-universe fiction. Sometimes — and this has been a source of great confusion — this is combined with talking to the camera. ''[[The Trip of a Lifetime (TV story)|The Trip of a Lifetime]]'' is not just talking "to camera", it's directly talking to you-the-viewer, and equivocating playfully between "do you want to be my companion" and "do you want to watch my show". Things like that ''can'' be valid sometimes, but when they are not in a medium like the mainline TV series, we should be mindful of potential Rule 4 concerns. I don't think ''Trip of a Lifetime'' was intended to be read as "real" events by [[Russell T Davies]]; all his efforts to curb the notion of anyone but Rose travelling with the Ninth Doctor in the EU surrounding [[Series 1 (Doctor Who)|Series 1]], and we should take literally the idea that he's here offering a nondescript "you" the same chance? No. It's a meta joke about watching the show, not something that "really happens" to any degree. Regrettably I think ''[[Animal Magic (TV story)|Animal Magic]]'' is ultimately a source of this type. It was half-ad-libbed on the set of a real ''Doctor Who'' story, but that seems rather more like that clearly non-Rule-4-passing ''[[Peter Capaldi and Simon the Shy Cyberman Invite You to Breakfast with 7 Doctors (webcast)|Peter Capaldi and Simon the Shy Cyberman Invite You to Breakfast with 7 Doctors]]'' being shot on the set of ''[[The Doctor Falls (TV story)|The Doctor Falls]]'' than anything else. I keep talking meta cartoons, but it's really like the Doctor-as-living-fictional-characters suddenly freezing the world around him to talk to th audience out of their TV screen. It's fiction, yes, and so's the Capaldi thing. But DWU fiction? No, not really, that I can see. Not at first glance. | Now we come to the really tricky stuff: "fourth wall breaks" in the sense of actual, material acknowledgement of ''Doctor Who'' as in-universe fiction. Sometimes — and this has been a source of great confusion — this is combined with talking to the camera. ''[[The Trip of a Lifetime (TV story)|The Trip of a Lifetime]]'' is not just talking "to camera", it's directly talking to you-the-viewer, and equivocating playfully between "do you want to be my companion" and "do you want to watch my show". Things like that ''can'' be valid sometimes, but when they are not in a medium like the mainline TV series, we should be mindful of potential Rule 4 concerns. I don't think ''Trip of a Lifetime'' was intended to be read as "real" events by [[Russell T Davies]]; all his efforts to curb the notion of anyone but Rose travelling with the Ninth Doctor in the EU surrounding [[Series 1 (Doctor Who 2005)|Series 1]], and we should take literally the idea that he's here offering a nondescript "you" the same chance? No. It's a meta joke about watching the show, not something that "really happens" to any degree. Regrettably I think ''[[Animal Magic (TV story)|Animal Magic]]'' is ultimately a source of this type. It was half-ad-libbed on the set of a real ''Doctor Who'' story, but that seems rather more like that clearly non-Rule-4-passing ''[[Peter Capaldi and Simon the Shy Cyberman Invite You to Breakfast with 7 Doctors (webcast)|Peter Capaldi and Simon the Shy Cyberman Invite You to Breakfast with 7 Doctors]]'' being shot on the set of ''[[The Doctor Falls (TV story)|The Doctor Falls]]'' than anything else. I keep talking meta cartoons, but it's really like the Doctor-as-living-fictional-characters suddenly freezing the world around him to talk to th audience out of their TV screen. It's fiction, yes, and so's the Capaldi thing. But DWU fiction? No, not really, that I can see. Not at first glance. | ||
This brings me to a wider point. There has been a lot of confusion caused by people wanting to draw a big red line between "this is set in the DWU" and "this is just the actor in costume". I think that's led both to motions for excessive invalidations ''and'' excessive validations, because as I brushed up on in earlier segments of this closing post, '''there is such a thing as fiction which treats the Doctor as real but is not set in the DWU'''. Usually this takes the form of the "meta" stories typified by ''[[It's Showtime (TV story)|It's Showtime]]'', where the Doctor is treated as a "living fictional character" who can not only speak out of the camera, but interact with the real world; but who's aware of their own fictionality, of ''being a character on the BBC'' (as distinct from "a real person whose life is ''somehow'' also chronicled on an easter-egg in-universe show"; there's a difference). ''It's Showtime'' is set in a world where a whole cast of living fictional characters including the likes of Shrek are all real beings running around a BBC backlot, and need to somehow "perform" their stories live for the BBC Christmas programming to proceed. In no shape or form is this "Matt Smith in costume but not in-character"; it's fiction. But its world is not the world of the ''Doctor Who'' TV show any more than the world of ''Who Framed Roger Rabbit'' is the world of ''Dumbo''. I actually think ''[[United we stand, 2m apart (webcast)|United we stand, 2m apart]]'' is quite probably meant to be "in-character"; Jodie Whittaker is not only in costume, but adopts Thirteen's body language and refers to herself as a Doctor. However, it, alongside ''[[The Naked Truth (TV story)|The Naked Truth]]'', ''[[BAFTA in the TARDIS (TV story)|BAFTA in the TARDIS]]'', ''[[Introduction to the Night (TV story)|Introduction to the Night]]'', ''[[Pugwash Ahoy! (comic story)|Pugwash Ahoy!]]'' and the ''[[Famine Appeal (TV story)|Famine Appeal]]'', all seem to be the case of the Doctor-as-living-fictional-character, not the Doctor-as-real-being, interacting with the audience. All these things are fiction, all these things are stories, there's no need for scare-quotes. It's just not clear they're stories about a "real" Doctor. | This brings me to a wider point. There has been a lot of confusion caused by people wanting to draw a big red line between "this is set in the DWU" and "this is just the actor in costume". I think that's led both to motions for excessive invalidations ''and'' excessive validations, because as I brushed up on in earlier segments of this closing post, '''there is such a thing as fiction which treats the Doctor as real but is not set in the DWU'''. Usually this takes the form of the "meta" stories typified by ''[[It's Showtime (TV story)|It's Showtime]]'', where the Doctor is treated as a "living fictional character" who can not only speak out of the camera, but interact with the real world; but who's aware of their own fictionality, of ''being a character on the BBC'' (as distinct from "a real person whose life is ''somehow'' also chronicled on an easter-egg in-universe show"; there's a difference). ''It's Showtime'' is set in a world where a whole cast of living fictional characters including the likes of Shrek are all real beings running around a BBC backlot, and need to somehow "perform" their stories live for the BBC Christmas programming to proceed. In no shape or form is this "Matt Smith in costume but not in-character"; it's fiction. But its world is not the world of the ''Doctor Who'' TV show any more than the world of ''Who Framed Roger Rabbit'' is the world of ''Dumbo''. I actually think ''[[United we stand, 2m apart (webcast)|United we stand, 2m apart]]'' is quite probably meant to be "in-character"; Jodie Whittaker is not only in costume, but adopts Thirteen's body language and refers to herself as a Doctor. However, it, alongside ''[[The Naked Truth (TV story)|The Naked Truth]]'', ''[[BAFTA in the TARDIS (TV story)|BAFTA in the TARDIS]]'', ''[[Introduction to the Night (TV story)|Introduction to the Night]]'', ''[[Pugwash Ahoy! (comic story)|Pugwash Ahoy!]]'' and the ''[[Famine Appeal (TV story)|Famine Appeal]]'', all seem to be the case of the Doctor-as-living-fictional-character, not the Doctor-as-real-being, interacting with the audience. All these things are fiction, all these things are stories, there's no need for scare-quotes. It's just not clear they're stories about a "real" Doctor. | ||
| Line 1,054: | Line 1,054: | ||
=== Part 6: ''Chute!'' === | === Part 6: ''Chute!'' === | ||
Another short one with clear consensus. This is a scripted, non-fourth-wall-breaking crossover, which could probably have been lumped into the "crossover shenanigans" discussion above. The story seems to carefully route ''around'' acknowledging SJA's in-universe fictionality, in a way rather similar to the famous gag in ''[[Remembrance of the Daleks (TV story)|Remembrance of the Daleks]]'' — stopping just short of confronting the characters with a SJA VHS tape. It's a fourth-wall ''gag'', but a gag which relies on the fact that there is a fourth wall to be broken, and that they hammer comes within inches of the wall in question, but then misses. | Another short one with clear consensus: '''it's valid'''. This is a scripted, non-fourth-wall-breaking crossover, which could probably have been lumped into the "crossover shenanigans" discussion above. The story seems to carefully route ''around'' acknowledging SJA's in-universe fictionality, in a way rather similar to the famous gag in ''[[Remembrance of the Daleks (TV story)|Remembrance of the Daleks]]'' — stopping just short of confronting the characters with a SJA VHS tape. It's a fourth-wall ''gag'', but a gag which relies on the fact that there is a fourth wall to be broken, and that they hammer comes within inches of the wall in question, but then misses. | ||
A lot of Ottsel's OP was given over to a discussion of the practicalities. He is correct that as per the precedent set by anything from ''[[The Incomplete Death's Head (comic story)|The Incomplete Death's Head]]'' to ''[[The Dalek Tapes (comic story)|The Dalek Tapes]]'' to ''[[Tales from the TARDIS (comic series)|Tales from the TARDIS]]'', the in-universe clips should be covered as part of the story — ''as'' in-universe clips, of course. This no more makes ''[[Potter Puppet Pals]]'' valid than [[Doctor Who (TV story)|the TV Movie]] makes ''[[Frankenstein (film)|Frankenstein]]'' valid.<ref>Note that, unlike the somewhat curious way we have given the individual stories within ''TIDH'' their own pages, we should here go with the ordinary procedure of merely covering them as part of the whole. Any pages about the clips qua clips would have to be in-universe ones. There is no cause for a "valid"-but-as-in-universe-fiction <nowiki>[[The Mysterious Ticking Noise (TV story)]]</nowiki>, that would be all ''kinds'' of confusing.</ref> There is no "slippery slope" situation here, not only because this is rare (as Ottsel notes), but because we've done it before. It's accepted procedure. | A lot of Ottsel's OP was given over to a discussion of the practicalities. He is correct that as per the precedent set by anything from ''[[The Incomplete Death's Head (comic story)|The Incomplete Death's Head]]'' to ''[[The Dalek Tapes (comic story)|The Dalek Tapes]]'' to ''[[Tales from the TARDIS (comic series)|Tales from the TARDIS]]'', the in-universe clips should be covered as part of the story — ''as'' in-universe clips, of course. This no more makes ''[[Potter Puppet Pals]]'' valid than [[Doctor Who (TV story)|the TV Movie]] makes ''[[Frankenstein (film)|Frankenstein]]'' valid.<ref>Note that, unlike the somewhat curious way we have given the individual stories within ''TIDH'' their own pages, we should here go with the ordinary procedure of merely covering them as part of the whole. Any pages about the clips qua clips would have to be in-universe ones. There is no cause for a "valid"-but-as-in-universe-fiction <nowiki>[[The Mysterious Ticking Noise (TV story)]]</nowiki>, that would be all ''kinds'' of confusing.</ref> There is no "slippery slope" situation here, not only because this is rare (as Ottsel notes), but because we've done it before. It's accepted procedure. | ||
| Line 1,072: | Line 1,072: | ||
But I think [[User:OttselSpy25]] does a good job of arguing that this story about the Doctor is very much a story about ''the'' Doctor, so to speak. Multiple people in the comments were impressed with the attention to continuity of putting Baker back in his old costume to make sure this fed ''properly'' into ''[[Terror of the Zygons (TV story)|Terror of the Zygons]]'', and the way it "restored the cliffhanger" of ''[[Revenge of the Cybermen (TV story)|Revenge of the Cybermen]]'' in much the same way as ''[[Time Crash (TV story)|Time Crash]]''. You wouldn't catch ''[[It's Showtime (TV story)|It's Showtime]]'' doing a thing like ''that''. And as for his status as a "celebrity" who can be invited to hold a programme like ''Disney Time'', Ottsel makes a good case that it was not intended to scan as a "breach o the rule" for the tiny tots watching at home. The Fourth Doctor grins at the camera, he [[Doctor Who Discovers|writes books]], he [[A Letter from the Doctor (series)|writes letters to ''Doctor Who Weekly'']]; of ''course'' he might host a TV show. Notably enough, ''Doctor Who'' is still treated as "real events" here, not some sort of meta-fiction that the meta-Doctor acts in; hence the cliffhanger to ''Terror of the Zygons''. | But I think [[User:OttselSpy25]] does a good job of arguing that this story about the Doctor is very much a story about ''the'' Doctor, so to speak. Multiple people in the comments were impressed with the attention to continuity of putting Baker back in his old costume to make sure this fed ''properly'' into ''[[Terror of the Zygons (TV story)|Terror of the Zygons]]'', and the way it "restored the cliffhanger" of ''[[Revenge of the Cybermen (TV story)|Revenge of the Cybermen]]'' in much the same way as ''[[Time Crash (TV story)|Time Crash]]''. You wouldn't catch ''[[It's Showtime (TV story)|It's Showtime]]'' doing a thing like ''that''. And as for his status as a "celebrity" who can be invited to hold a programme like ''Disney Time'', Ottsel makes a good case that it was not intended to scan as a "breach o the rule" for the tiny tots watching at home. The Fourth Doctor grins at the camera, he [[Doctor Who Discovers|writes books]], he [[A Letter from the Doctor (series)|writes letters to ''Doctor Who Weekly'']]; of ''course'' he might host a TV show. Notably enough, ''Doctor Who'' is still treated as "real events" here, not some sort of meta-fiction that the meta-Doctor acts in; hence the cliffhanger to ''Terror of the Zygons''. | ||
This is a tricky case. It's one that warranted discussion. But there is sufficient evidence here for a consensus to enshrine that as near as we could tell, or default assumption ''should'' be that this was intended to "count" as much as any other non-mainline-TV-series material of the era, ''despite'' the flirting with the fourth wall. File it alongside your merry Christmases and your Beethovens if you must. | This is a tricky case. It's one that warranted discussion. But there is sufficient evidence here for a consensus to enshrine that as near as we could tell, or default assumption ''should'' be that this was intended to "count" as much as any other non-mainline-TV-series material of the era, ''despite'' the flirting with the fourth wall. '''So it's valid'''. File it alongside your merry Christmases and your Beethovens if you must. | ||
I am personally unsure about the idea of using screenshots from other releases of the clips shown in the original broadcast. At least, we should be careful about cropping, and not show any margins which the 4:3 broadcast would have cutout. But the consensus seemed to be in favour of the suggestion, so fine. Let's give it a try. Far be it from me to arbitrarily rule against the obvious consensus just because ''I'' don't like it! | I am personally unsure about the idea of using screenshots from other releases of the clips shown in the original broadcast. At least, we should be careful about cropping, and not show any margins which the 4:3 broadcast would have cutout. But the consensus seemed to be in favour of the suggestion, so fine. Let's give it a try. Far be it from me to arbitrarily rule against the obvious consensus just because ''I'' don't like it! | ||
| Line 1,113: | Line 1,113: | ||
Besides, I have long felt that if we extend the Iris precedent to other cases, there are several other stories we may want to look at before Death's Head. (For just one example, we cover 95% of the [[Cyberon (series)|''Cyberon'' series]] as it is. For another, this seems like the perfect, long-delayed resolution to [[Talk:Bibliophage (short story)]].) | Besides, I have long felt that if we extend the Iris precedent to other cases, there are several other stories we may want to look at before Death's Head. (For just one example, we cover 95% of the [[Cyberon (series)|''Cyberon'' series]] as it is. For another, this seems like the perfect, long-delayed resolution to [[Talk:Bibliophage (short story)]].) | ||
So if we revisit this particular question, that should be as its ''own'', ''non''-Speedround thread. | So if we revisit this particular question, that should be as its ''own'', ''non''-Speedround thread. | ||
As always, thanks, everyone! [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:48, 22 April 2023 (UTC) | |||
=== Footnotes === | === Footnotes === | ||
{{reflist}} | {{reflist}} | ||