Talk:The Doctor

The Doctor

Other realities

Non-valid sources

Appearances

Talk

	Archives: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7

Infobox Image Update

Hello. Is there any possibility of updating the images used for both the Twelfth Doctor and the Thirteenth Doctor's for ones that are more appropriate? I guess I get the "eyebrows" thing so that image isn't *too* bad I suppose (still think better could be done), but surely the Thirteenth Doctor deserves an image of herself in her actual clothing rather than the image currently in use which is from her opening story The Woman Who Fell to Earth and displays her still wearing the ragged and battered remains of her previous incarnation's clothing? I hope you'll take these suggestions under advisement. Thank you for reading. --Alan-WK ☎ 02:19, January 13, 2020 (UTC)

The Timeless Child

So, obviously there will have to be some changes. For starters, the Jo Martin Doctor added to More Ambiguous section of the Doctor's incarnations. Other than that, how big a rewrite are we looking at and how much should be kept to other pages likeTimeless Child?--TheOneTrueJack ☎ 21:00, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

Well, as far as I can put it together, it's the 8 Timeless Child regenerations, at least 5 more, the 8 Morbius regenerations, Ruth, 4 more, Hartnell - Matt, Capaldi - Present. We know that the Timeless Child regenerations and the Morbius ones can't be the same cycle as the Doctor was kidified after each 13, so it seems. So Jodie is not, at least the 27th Doctor now.--HarryPotterRules1 ☎ 21:16, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

If we take it that The Timeless Child was at the start of Time Lord society and for whatever reason was never cryogenically frozen or forced into the future. Then it stands to reason that he/she is as old as Time Lord society. In The Ultimate Foe who we used to call The Sixth Doctor says that they've been around for 10 Million years. Now if we take The Eleventh Doctors life of 1100 years as a measure for a standard regenerations life span as this was the longest and seemed to die of natural causes. Then at MINIMUM The Doctor has had 9,091 lives which are not including any that were cut short by falling off any cliffs or mother figures experimenting on them. --Thebobbrom ☎ 23:53, March 2, 2020 (UTC)

It seems like the Thirteen lives rule was put in place much later on. So that wouldn't apply to the Timeless Child incarnations --TheOneTrueJack ☎ 21:24, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

Except we can't call any of those before Hartnell any variant of the [number] Doctor. Cause if we do that we'll have to re-route, in no exaggeration, the "ENTIRE" Wikia from scratch. --DCLM ☎ 21:29, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

Well obviously we can't do that. The Morbius Doctors can be referred to as such, and the Timeless Child incarnations can be included in the Timeless Child page. But should they both (as two sperate groups) be put in the More Ambiguous section of the Doctor's incarnations? And how much should the main Doctor page talk about them? – The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheOneTrueJack (talk • contribs) .

Well, that's the thing. I don't believe the Doctor is bound to the 13 lives. The Timelords just sort of "kid-i-fied" the Doctor again when he reached the end of his 13 "lives"; that's what the whole Brendan stuff was. The Doctor believed he was bound to the 13 "lives" because he didn't remember anything before hand. But, in actuality, he wasn't bound to it at all. So it could literally be the 8 on the table plus 5 more - then kid-i-fied and made to forget - then the 8 morbius, Ruth and 4 more - then Kid-i-fied and made to forget - then Hartnell onwards and the Timelords only gave the "new" cycle to the Doctor to hide their lie.--HarryPotterRules1 ☎ 21:46, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

That would make sense if the Time Lords didn't have to restore the Doctor's regeneration ability in The Time of the Doctor. Though if they restored the Doctor's original ability, it would explain the ambiguity of how many regenerations the Doctor has now.--WarGrowlmon18 ☎ 21:55, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

The Brendan stuff was a cover-story to hide the truth about the Time Lords' beginning. Brendan, his parents, the Sergeant etc. never existed. They were images layered on top of the real truth. --DCLM ☎ 22:00, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

The Timeless Child could regenerate indefinitely. But THE DOCTOR was limited to 13 lives. That's not really a matter of perspective. It was seen that the Doctor could only regenerate 12 times. This means that the limitation of 12 regenerations was also bestowed on the Doctor, or maybe perhaps after they "stopped" being the Timeless Child. --DCLM ☎ 22:02, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

That's my point. Did they restore it? I believe the Doctor was bound to the 13 body limits because he believed he was. He actually wasn't - he just thought he was because he believed he was a Timelord, when he isn't - he's something different. The Timelords gave him a "new" cycle to hide the truth of what he was - constantly and continually able to regenerate.--HarryPotterRules1 ☎ 22:04, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

The Doctor IS a Time Lord. You can't get around that. However as the Seventh Doctor said "I'm far more than just another Time Lord". And he WAS limited down. That's what they did, as other media stories have explained was done at some point to the Time Lord race. --DCLM ☎ 22:09, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

No, wrong. We know now that the Doctor is not a Timelord. The Doctor is an entirely different species who was studied by the original Timelord/Shebogan to create regeneration. The Doctor only believed she/he was a Timelord. --HarryPotterRules1 ☎ 22:18, March 1, 2020 (UTC)

I'm up with Harry. The Doctor is not a Timelord anymore, but the "ancestor" species of the Time Lords: a Timeless Child (not official name but just to make it clear). --Con Carne (Di la verdad, o cobras...) 10:09, March 2, 2020 (UTC)

No. The Doctor was MADE into a Time Lord. Also whoever changed the page, please don't just change it without a conclusion to this. Con Carne, don't just make a change this major. It needs proper discussion. You and Harry agreeing, doesn't alone make it so. We need proper consultation that admins also join in on before we can just decide something this major. --DCLM ☎ 10:19, March 2, 2020 (UTC)

This is a discussion for the Board of Discussions. I'll make a thread. --DCLM ☎ 10:21, March 2, 2020 (UTC)

Just one thing, it wasn't me, I haven't changed anything in the article. :( --Con Carne (Di la verdad, o cobras...) 11:49, March 2, 2020 (UTC)

I know, that was my bad. I didn't looks properly. Sorry about that. I DID change my statement to say "whoever changed the page". Sorry for the mistunderstanding. --DCLM ☎ 11:53, March 2, 2020 (UTC)

How did you make the docpic slideshow?

How did you make the slideshow feature/template entitled "docpic" inside the infobox? I'd like to achieve something similar for a wiki I'm working on. JustWilhelm ☎ 10:10, July 27, 2020 (UTC)

"The Doctor's Species"

I agree that we should keep the "the doctor's species" under their species but why isn't there also "Time Lord" as well. Although the Doctor started life as whatever species they were when Tecteun found them, since Hartnell -> Whittaker, they have been bound to the thirteen incarnation cycles with two hearts and should unequivocably be called a time lord since being changed into one by the time lords using the chameleon arch (as hinted at by those Brendan scenes). – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cptjackhotness (talk • contribs) .

Hi! If The Doctor's species were the page about the species of the Timeless Child, you would be correct, but it's not. That's "Timeless Child's species". The page The Doctor's species is an overview detailing all the conflicting accounts of whether the Doctor is a Time Lord, a human, half-human, a member of the Timeless Child's species, etc.

Also, it's not evident that the Brendan scene corresponds to a chameleon arch specifically. It could just as easily have just been a deaging/mindwiping process. According to The Timeless Children the Shobogans became the Time Lords when Tecteun spliced DNA of the Timeless Child into them, so it's a perfectly valid interpretation that the Timeless Child was the original two-hearted binary-vascular-systemed species, and it's the Shobogans who were altered to resemble the Doctor, not the other way around. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 13:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Usage of "Dr. Who"

Okay, seeing as my edits on TV Comic stories have been questioned, I shall explain why I am using the name "Dr. Who" and how policy backs me up on this.

As a bit of context, the names "First Doctor" and "Second Doctor" were never used in the characters' original televised runs. The only times they are used are in stories such as PROSE: The Eight Doctors and other works by Terrance Dicks. (see more about Dicks' naming conventions over at Forum:Is using "First Doctor", "Second Doctor" etc in-universe?, however, me linking this does not mean I agree with the conclusion.)
These names have been retroactively applied to these characters, despite evidence from the television stories directly contradicting this, perhaps most notably in TV: The Power of the Daleks when the "Patrick Troughton" Doctor mentioned that the "regeneration" he undertook was a restorative feature of his TARDIS and that he had used it before, meaing that Troughton was not playing the "Second Doctor". (This also means there have been "Pre-Hartnell Doctors" from pretty early on folks!). A precedent notably seen over on Talk:Tzim-Sha#Rename and the various talk pages of Amy Pond, is that the name that the characters actually use to refer to themselves as takes precendent. So, in the case of the Doctor, this policy applies. We, as the rule abiding users, should use the name, the title that the Doctor chose for himself, which is in most stories, "the Doctor". In the case of TV Comic, "the Doctor" is short for "Dr. Who", so this indicates to me that "the Doctor" should be the name that is most widely used, and "Dr. Who" for his name in place of the regular usage of "[insert number here] Doctor", in sources that actually state that "Dr. Who" is the Doctor's full name of course. This also would be mean that "[insert number here] Doctor" would be acceptable if substantiated by the respective source.

Now, the argument has been made that "Dr. Who" is not as clear cut as "the [insert number here] Doctor", however, the aforementioned precedent I cited comes into play here. (Additionally, adjectives can be used to adequately describe which "Dr. Who" the source is talking about.) Due to the ruling by admin @Scrooge MacDuck...

Where you are correct is that with all the conflicting accounts of what this fellow calls himself, we should probably strive to use the names given by each individual sources in individually-sourced statement. Information from COMIC: 4-Dimensional Vistas does belong on this page, sorry. But a paragraph sourced to that story should refer to him as "the Time Meddler", not "the Monk". And so on.@Scrooge MacDuck

...as stated at Talk:The Monk/Archive 1#Article made from whole cloth, accompanied by the polcies given by Tardis:Valid sources, we should use the name of the character as given within the story, regardless of whether or not another story uses a different name. The Doctor refers to himself as "Dr. Who"? That is the name we use. An example of this, as aforementioned admin @Scrooge MacDuck gave at User talk:Danochy, is COMIC: 4-Dimensional Vistas, which uses the name "The Time-Meddler" to refer to the Monk as "The Time-Meddler" was the name given in the source; this name is perfectly acceptable for use so long as it is cited by its respective story, despite "the Monk" being a more well-known name. There is an exception to this, which is that the character's best known name should be used in infoboxes, for clarity. I, admittedly, did not know this, however as soon as it was brought up, I immediately backtracked and switched "Dr. Who" for "First Doctor" becuase I wanted to follow the policies exactly

Furthermore, I am also backed up by Tardis:Neutral point of view, which states quite clearly at the top of the page...

Media doesn't matter. One of the most important aspects of this wiki is that all media have equal weight here. Television is not the most important source of information on this wiki. That which is said in a short story in the 1967 Doctor Who Annual, or a Faction Paradox audio drama, is just as valid as the latest episode of BBC Wales Doctor Who.T:NPOV

...therefore, the names retroactively applied to the Hartnell and Troughton Doctors do not supersede "Dr. Who".

Despite this, I am not advocating for the name "Dr. Who" to be intergrated into the pages of sources that do not use it. Even so, this change being implemented into the pages of television and other notable sources will obviously require a Forum thread, owing to the controversial nature of this proposed name change. Additionally, a name change towards certain incarnations of the Doctor may be beneficial, seeing as certain major plot threads state that William Hartnell's Doctor was not the first. Another note against the current naming of the Doctors is that their names are barely even substantiated by any valid sources, so perhaps a new naming style like with the Monk may actually be the best course of action. The Doctor (An Unearthly Child), The Doctor (Planet of the Spiders), etc will likely be better for compliance with T:NPOV. I am rambling though, and this is really its own separate discussion that of course should be brought to the Forums when @CzechOut works out the problems, so I'll stop talking about this and focus on this little facet of the problem that can be resolved without much effort or discussion.

I will mention however, as my actions are well within policy, and I only changing the names in stories published by TV Comic, which again, unambiguously uses the name "Dr. Who". I suspect that my actions will continue to be correct despite certain objections held by editors, but do remember, Tardis:You are bound by current policy and Tardis:Canon policy apply, in case if anybody is thinking that them simply objecting to this on a talk page will be enough to overturn policy or that if TV Comic is non-canonical.

Epsilon📯 📂

14:51, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

I largely agree with the direction of these edits, but don't forget about T:DOCTORS. On the page for a TV Comic story, I agree that we should use the name for the Doctor used in that story, with the exact incarnation number specified in the lede or the notes section; but on other pages, it's important for comprehensability's sake that each Doctor be identified by incarnation, T:NPOV be damned. I'm partial to "the first Dr. Who", myself. – n8 (☎) 20:31, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Yep, I'm in 100% agreement with N8 here. Specify "First Doctor" or "First Dr. Who" where necessary for the sake of clarity, specify "Dr. Who" or "The Doctor" (as appropriate to the text) following the initial numerical identifier.

Also, is the quote where 2 mentions having regenerated before really in the TV serial? I'm certain it originated in the 1993 novelisation. I.e. it's a reference to The Doctor (The Brain of Morbius). In fact, Epsilon, your argument against numbering falls apart when you consider The Brain of Morbius, as the same logic would suggest we can't even refer to Tom Baker's Doctor from that era as the Fourth Doctor! Danochy ☎ 20:49, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

That bit in the novelization was based on a deleted scene from the original script. But even then, for a long time it was thought that Ian coined the title "the Doctor" and passed it along to other companions via word-of-mouth. (For instance, the First Doctor on TV never really referred to himself as "the Doctor".) So even if there were any number of incarnations before Hartnell, he still would have been the "First Doctor". – n8 (☎) 20:58, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

No, no, I am pretty sure it was mentioned in the television serial. And actually, the Fourth Doctor shouldn't be used on Baker's Doctor, as up until The Deadly Assassin, he wasn't the Fourth Doctor, especially as The Brain of Morbius literally showed that he had multiple incarnations before Hartnell. So "Fourth Doctor" is really not a good name. As for the "Dr. Who" bit, if an incarnation is to be used, it should be styled as "first Dr. Who", in accordance with Tardis:Doctors, though I would still prefer ditching the numbering system in accounts where it is blatantly untrue. As for what the Doctor calls himself, there is a f deal of evidence to show that he refers to himself as "the Doctor" and "Dr. Who".

Epsilon📯 📂

21:16, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

It's nice that you're "pretty sure" it was mentioned, but I am absolutely certain that it wasn't.

I've said this to you before: the single purpose of every wiki is to be legible and usable, and all the other rules are in service of that goal. So if a rule makes a wiki less legible or usable, it bends. (Check out Interference - Book Two if you want to see this in action.) What would it look like if we got rid of T:DOCTORS and the numbering system? What did it look like on The Power of the Daleks after your edits to it? Every user would have to hover over every instance of "the Doctor" or "Dr. Who" to see what dab term was pipe switched away. And that would be neither legible nor usable.

Whether "Fourth Doctor" is a good name has nothing to do with what he called himself or how it fits with T:NPOV, and it has everything to do with the fact that "Fourth Doctor" is his universally recognized name. If T:DOCTORS breaks T:NPOV, T:DOCTORS wins every single time. You're doing nothing but hurting your case and wasting your time by complaining about numbering rather than focusing on more limited compromises that might be actually achievable. – n8 (☎) 12:31, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I am once again in agreement with Nate. Changing the name to "Dr. Who" in the comic plot summaries is all well and good, but changing it on actors pages is pretty pedantic (and the redirect just plain pointless). Yes in the 60s, William Hartnell was not known as the "First Doctor", but this wiki is not being read in the 60s, it is being read in the 21st century and the people of the 21st century know him as the First Doctor (and have done for decades). And changing all accounts of "the x Doctor" to "Dr Who" or "the Doctor" (such as The Power of the Daleks edit) is massively confusing and unhelpful.

P.S. Apologies, Epsilon for not replying to your message on my talk page. When I saw that you had created this thread, I figured this would be a more appropriate place to put my thoughts. LauraBatham ☎ 12:59, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I’m no expert on wiki policy, but I would agree that there’s a need for the wiki to be easily legible and usable by readers. Referring to the Doctor as Dr Who specifically in the context of TV Comic stories seems reasonable, but renaming all the Doctors as variants of The Doctor (An Unearthly Child) would be potentially difficult for readers to navigate and put this wiki out of touch with 99% of discussion around Doctor Who where the Doctors are referred to by those familiar numbers. I don’t think the recent developments changes this at all, as a previous revelation also altered the numbering of the Doctors’ incarnations but the norm of referring to Eccleston’s Doctor as the Ninth Doctor, Tennant’s as Tenth, Smith’s as Eleventh etc has remained the same. SherlockTheII ☎ 16:54, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm sorry, Epsilon, but dabbed page names for First Doctor onwards are simply never going to happen. And infoboxes should use a name that is specific to the page we are linking. If we had some other in-universe moniker specific to the Troughton Doctor, then perhaps it would be worth weighing that option… but we cannot start putting just "Dr Who", or indeed "The Doctor", in the |doctor= field of infoboxes. This helps no one whatsoever.

Using "Dr. Who", and refraining from using "First" or "Second", makes sense for plot summaries, as well as for the writing of paragraphs cited to these stories. Yes, plot description of, say, The Highlanders should not mention "the Second Doctor", just "the Doctor" or "Dr Who". But that doesn't mean that the legibility essentially real-world constructs such as infoboxes (whether it be the story's infobox or the actors') should be compromised — nor that it is false to refer to the man in The Highlanders as the Second Doctor in an in-universe sense. He is in fact "the Second Doctor" — albeit "according to some accounts". Thus, while we must not give the impression that the story uses this name, "the Second Doctor lived through these events" is a valid statement within the wider the DWU.

The thing about T:NPOV is that it mostly applies to what statements we make about the DWU, not how pages are named. Because pages cannot truly have several names at once, we necessarily have to "prioritise" one version over another when a character has several valid names. T:NPOV still has its place in terms of making sure that, for example, it is not "TV by default" that wins this assessment, rather than the name that actually makes the most sense and best reflects DWU sources in aggregate. But it is not inherently a T:NPOV breach to say Troughton was the Second Doctor just because some stories number the Doctors differently. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 17:51, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I am endorsing what Scrooge MacDuck, LauraBatham and NateBumber have said, above. Standardisation is necessary on a wiki (and universe) of this size, especially where characters as central as the Doctor are concerned.

Also of note, as to why T:DOCTORS trumps any T:NPOV arguments: even with the last decade of Doctor Who on television firmly renumbering the Doctor's incarnations, in one way or another, "Twelfth Doctor" is a title, not always an accurate description.

This is where capitalising Twelfth, by convention, happens to also give the right idea: he is not necessarily the Doctor's twelfth incarnation, but he is, by most sources and common understanding, the "Twelfth Doctor". We decided in 2013 to stick with this and not confuse things, and we are not going back on that. The wiki would unfortunately be quite illegible.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   08:35, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Fugitive Doctor Placement (Infobox)

After Once, Upon Time, should the Fugitve Doctor be moved from "Others/Unplaced Incarnations" to "Widley Accpeted"? That story does confirm her to be a pre-Hartnell incarnation that worked for The Division. Or should we wait until this era is done, on the off chance they show an actual regeneration/transition. Perhpas even from her to the The First Doctor, somehow.

TheOneTrueJack ☎ 21:59, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

"Widely accepted" is really for the "main line-up", as it were, not just for characters who are "definitely the Doctor" in their portrayal. No one is denying The Doctor (Contents) counts, but they don't belong. I suppose, if there were a direct regeneration into Harntell, the question could be raised of slotting Martin in that row, but so long as she remains, as it were, "free-floating" without a number or explicit precise placement, she doesn't belong there. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images

The Doctor

At almost exactly the same time as User:Scrooge MacDuck closed Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Replacing docpic, I finalised a mock-up of a potential solution to allow us to keep the chronilogical ordering of tabs while having the most recent incarnation selected by default, shown to the right (and on User:Bongolium500/Sandbox 7). Pretty much, the image listed earliest in the gallery is always the one that is selected by default. CSS can then be used to move this tab to the end of the row when the page is viewed. Therefore, the image for the most recent incarnation can be listed first and is then simply moved to the end by CSS. Currently, and temporarily, this is done by wrapping the infobox in a <div>, but a new infobox field could easily be added to allow this to be enabled on any infobox. The only issue I can think of is with mobile: CSS doesn't work there so the images will be displayed in the order they're listed, regardless of any changes made to their order with CSS. Bongo50 ☎ 22:02, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

If the mobile issue is deemed to large, I have another potential solution which would avoid it using JavaScript. However, this would cause the first tab to initially be selected before jumping to the last tab during page load which may also be undesirable. Bongo50 ☎ 22:08, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm fully in support of this. Cousin Ettolrahc ☎ 22:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I still don't understand why…

…the infobox images for each Doctor are completely different from those used on the individual pages? WaltK ☎ 20:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Fourteenth Doctor tab pic

We'll definitely find better images as the specials progress, but for right now I'd like to propose we make the Fourteenth Doctor tab's pic on this page be 14 never here.png. Just a better aspect ratio and look at the character than what we have right now. -- MattTheNerd42 ☎ 17:48, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think this suggested image is suitable at all. The subject of an image needs to be clearly visible when it's a thumbnail and most of the image is the TARDIS exterior. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 17:53, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Article picture aspect ratios

The aspect ratios for the pictures of Doctors 1 - 13 are the same, but 14 and 15 have different sizes. If someone knows how to make them equal to the others, I suggest they do so. Wozza123 ☎ 18:19, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

NGL I think we should seize this opportunity to overhaul most, if not all, of the images. They all have that annoying "crop out the forehead" crop that is not necessary now (or even ever, technically, people just misunderstood what counted as part of a person's face) and the overall resolution of a lot of these images are also low.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Matching individual article pages

Shouldn't the images be the same as on the individual incarnation pages? Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 22:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I think Aquanafrahudy has a good point. Would be nice to update them all to match their respective pages. FractalDoctor ☎ 01:03, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

As I did on the other version of the Wiki, I've gone ahead and updated the infobox gallery so that each Docpic matches their respective Docpic on their page. When we make a decision on 14 and 15's final images, we can then update this one to match. Surely this just makes sense. We could maybe crop them all in due course so they're all the same aspect ratio too? — Fractal Doctor • 21:27, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

This has now been undone, so I guess I'll instead second Aquanafrahudy's suggestion above. Personally, I'm not even sure why the images here would be different to the ones on each individual page. At the very least, these images really could do with updated versions because most are very poor quality and haven't been updated with higher quality ones since 2014. I notice not only have myself and Aquanafrahudy mentioned it, but WaltK also raised the question back in November 2023 too. — Fractal Doctor • 18:42, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Just to add: on the page for The Master, each image used in the infobox correlates / is the same as the one used on each individual incarnation's respective page. Not sure why the Doctor is different then in this respect. — Fractal Doctor • 19:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Bringing this back because I feel it's a valid discussion to have. Not sure why the images on this page wouldn't mirror those on each respective Doctor's page... especially since several are very low-quality, 6 is a promo photo (I think), 8 is a different aspect ratio, War is weirdly framed/cropped, some images are different sizes, 12 is just outright unflattering, 14 is quite dark, etc. — Fractal • 20:35, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree but I think User:SOTO is opposed. It would be good to hear why. Bongo50 ☎ 20:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Radio silence. I know infobox images aren't the biggest priority of the Wiki, but ones for major characters are, and it's silly that we have a newly refreshed Wiki which we showcase as being modernised and up to date... and not only do the infobox images here not match their respective Doctor pages, but they're also of very low quality, and we've been stuck with them for literally years now. — Fractal • 18:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I am strongly opposed to having the tabbed gallery on [[The Doctor]] match the individual incarnation pages, but I am in support of revamping our image selection here.

I see no reason not to showcase different images on each of these high-visibility pages, especially as image discussions for the individual Doctors will often come up with really good runner-ups (and/or variant images for two different eras, within that Doctor's life: ex. Eighth Doctor, Eleventh Doctor).

That said, since we no longer use {{docpic}}, we are no longer constrained like we were way back in 2013. So yes, we should at the very least be using higher-quality versions of these images, and I'm not sure we (necessarily) need to restrict them all to exactly the same dimensions, either.

I'll post a proposal shortly with some suggestion replacement images (again, not in favour of doing the hasty thing and just overriding them with images agreed upon by discussion for those incarnations' pages). Then we can build as a community from there. And ultimately come to a decision on the new roster.

Time for some progress on this, certainly.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   01:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Now posted below.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   05:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

New infobox images! (2024 edition)

The Doctor
Main aliases:	see list
Species:	The Doctor's species

As explained above, we're now looking to revamp our image roster for the main Doctor page. This has gone largely unchanged since 2013, apart from the addition of more recent incarnations of course...

Here is my proposal. I've had this on the back burner for a good while. Time to start this off. I've included a sample infobox with the actual tabs, so you can get a good sense.

And here is a regular gallery, which you can all add to. The only real rules are 1. that it cannot be what's already used on the incarnation page (I suppose, unless you're concretely proposing swapping them around...), and 2. that Classic Doctors should be in 4:3, while New Who Doctors' images should at least approximate modern aspect ratios.

Fittingly, I thought, in my proposal, I elected to make Eight's image a middle ground between the dimensions used for Classic Who and New Who.

Well. Let the games commence...
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   05:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

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  6 (E)

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  6 (F)

• 

  6 (G)

• 

  6 (H)

• 

  6 (I)

• 

  6 (J)

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  6 (K)

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  6 (L)

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  6 (M)

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  6 (N)

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  6 (O)

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  6 (P)

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  6 (Q)

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  6 (R)

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  6 (S)

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  7 (A)

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  7 (B)

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  7 (C)

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  7 (D)

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  7 (E)

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  7 (F)

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  7 (G)

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  7 (H)

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  8 (A)

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  8 (B)

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  8 (A2)

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  8 (C)

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  8 (D)

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  8 (E)

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  8 (F)

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  8 (G)

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  8 (H)

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  8 (I)

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  War (A)

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  War (B)

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  War (C)

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  War (D)

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  War (E)

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  War (F)

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  War (G)

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  9 (A)

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  9 (B)

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  9 (C)

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  9 (D)

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  9 (E)

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  10 (A)

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  11 (A)

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  11 (B)

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  11 (C)

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  12 (A)

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  12 (B)

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  12 (C)

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  12 (D)

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  12 (E)

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  12 (F)

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  13 (A)

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  13 (B)

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  13 (C)

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  13 (D)

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  14 (A)

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  14 (B)

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  14 (C)

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  14 (D)

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  14 (E)

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  15 (A)

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  15 (B)

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  15 (C)

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  15 (D)

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  15 (E)

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  15 (F)

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  15 (G)

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  15 (H)

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  15 (I)

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  15 (J)

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  15 (K)

• 

  15 (L)

Discussion

I think most of these are all right, but I'm not a fan of the picture of the War Doctor given that most of it is wall. Jack ☎ 10:49, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, SOTO, for setting this up. You've convinced me that it'd be best to use different images from those on respective Doctor pages, for the sake of variety. I like all of your proposed images, apart from those for 8 and War. I feel the one for the War Doctor is too much background, and the picks for 8 are just too dark. I wonder if there'd be a consensus on whether the image for 8 should be from the 1996 TV Movie, or the 2013 minisode, or if it'd be split. I would argue the TV Movie might have better options, brighter imagery, and is the basis for his definitive looks, but I can also see value in showcasing him from later in his life as depicted in the 2013 minisode too.

I have added a couple of images. Granted, they're not all "facing to the left" but we have previously established that this is more of a preferred guideline unless there are better alternatives that don't adhere to this. — Fractal • 11:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

In the original 2013 discussion, we established that Eight should have his TNOTD look here, for the sake of having both represented.

It is worth noting that Paul McGann himself disliked his original look, and wanted something like his Dark Eyes look after seeing Eccleston in his leather jacket. In ongoing Big Finish (and, notably, TV: The Power of the Doctor ^[+]Loading...["The Power of the Doctor (TV story)"], meaning his TVM look is now in the minority on television), this is what he looks like.

That said, yes, that minisode is rather dark. "8 (B)" has slightly better lighting. I'm not opposed to going for a TVM screenshot this time, so long as it's an improvement, though it is a shame. (Power would be perfect, but that's only a mental construct.)
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   15:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

In particular, I quite like "8 (C)".
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   15:46, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Of those available, I like "8 (C)" even though it's similar to the image we have on the Eighth Doctor page... are there rules against artificially brightening an image, even just slightly? If we could do that, a screencap from the 2013 minisode would work IMO. It's just harder to 'read' if we use dark images.

And fair enough regarding equal representation and McGann's own thoughts - it's nice that he's been able to evolve his costume, even if only via Big Finish covers etc. We all know Colin hated his costume but he's been stuck with that ever since, barring rare variants like the blue one. I think, for McGann, "8 (B)" would work if we could tweak and brighten it slightly. — Fractal • 16:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I've adjusted the lighting slightly on that image. (Compare at File:Docpic8b.jpg, where the full file history is available. Note that the original version, by User:CzechOut, was highly colour corrected. I've done a subtler job this time, I feel.)
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   18:31, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Added some more images of the War Doctor. IMHO some of these are good candidates for the Infobox on his own page.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

17:41, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I think "War (E)" is by far the best one yet!
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   18:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, "War (E)" is great. — Fractal • 18:55, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

The Doctor

Here's how it looks with "8 (C)" (best TVM option, IMO), by the way. I'm hoping for some good submissions for the Seventh Doctor, to cap it off. I was having trouble sourcing high-quality screenshots for him.

EDIT: Trying out "War (F)" at the same time; another candidate I really like.

EDIT 2: A really cool feature of "War (F)" is that it matches the Ninth Doctor's eyeline! So you have the devastation on Gallifrey behind War, and then switch to the Ninth Doctor haunted by that memory (actively telling Rose about the Time War). This one has my vote!
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   19:08, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

If McGann's thoughts are playing even a minor role in image selection, I think it's only fair to consider Colin Baker's as well so I've added a couple of options without The Coat. Jack ☎ 19:32, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

The Doctor

(And here's with alternate Time War McGann. I think it rather works, as well!!)
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   23:49, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and I like "6 (E)" best among the non-rainbow ones, although I'm hesitant about using a one-time outfit for this.

McGann is a special situation, in that 2/3 of his TV appearances and multiple eras of Big Finish have him in his Dark Eyes getup. This is a significant (though not overwhelming) portion of his appearances across the EU; more prominent, even, than Eleven's 7B look, which he also lived and died in, in the end.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   02:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

@SOTO well you've forgotten WC: Shada ^[+]Loading...["Shada (webcast)"]. The "TV Movie" outfit appears in two television-based stories (yes, Shada should count as television, it's a visual serial you can literally get on Blu-ray) and the "war" outfit appears in two television-based stories.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

02:15, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh and also I think it would be better if we just used 4:3 aspect ratios for all the images. It'll be consistent then, and deadspace can be more easily removed. Especially for late Chibnall ers and beyond, as the aspect ratio is now wider than 16:9 as anamorphic lens are being used.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

02:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Compare '15 (B)' and '15 (C)', for example.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

02:32, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to cropping them all to 4:3! That's probably the right idea.

Certainly, the current aspect ratio (as demonstrated in your 15 pics) needs to be cropped down to match the others. Beyond that, I do like your images from Rogue; "15 (H)" in particular. (Since Fifteen has so many outfits, I don't think we should constrain ourselves to one particular look for him.)

I think "8 (F)" and "15 (B)" — in their current crops, certainly — should be disqualified, as they both prominently feature two characters. We should assume an unknowledgeable reader is going through this infobox (and has already seen the Thirteenth Doctor, a blonde woman, two incarnations back). I do think the War Doctor image with several obscured background characters is fine, for the record, as he's clearly the subject of the image.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   06:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

"15 (C)" is another good one, and demonstrates 4:3 for modern Doctors well. But I won't be the first to say this: Shada just looks bad in a modern context. And it would be odd to use an animated screenshot for just this one Doctor, when he has appeared extensively enough in live-action, to match the others.

(That said, if one of the Doctors were to be represented by a non-live action image, it should be the Eighth Doctor, who's famously much more of an EU Doctor. ...Actually, should we consider using a comic image? 👀)
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   06:25, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

(Whether WC: Shada should count as television is a whole other kettle of fish, best reserved for the forums. But I will concede that there's an argument to be made that there's a 50/50 split, yes.)
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   06:28, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I do agree Shada doesn't look great but I feel it should still be technically considered. But there are definitely better images to choose from.

Also, TBQH Shada is not really that different from the animations of missing episodes, except for the animation quality being worse. But that's for another time. (And technically Night is a webcast but people wrangled some way it could be covered as a "(TV story)".)

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

06:32, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to cropping them to 4:3, so they're all the same proportion and we can focus in on each Doctor's face. I would oppose the use of Shada for the 8th Doctor, as I think we should stick to live action for consistency, even if a particular character has been used more in expanded universe material. We're also not considering any animated images for Troughton's Doctor even though a lot of his era is now retroactively animated. For McGann, I like 8 (A) and 8 (B). I'm also not huge on 15 (F-J) because of how dark and shadowy the images are. [While I'm here, may I also suggest that 10 (A) could be a great image for the 10th Doctor's own page - the discussion over on his Talk page just stopped dead in its tracks, and he could really do with an update] — Fractal • 10:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

SOTO, a couple may need a little tweak/crop, but I've added some options for McCoy's Doctor to the gallery for consideration — Fractal • 11:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Also added a couple more options for other Doctors :) — Fractal • 11:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Added '8 (I)', but I don't think it should count given it's a mental manifestation, like how we don't use that one image of Charlotte Pollard from a dream sequence in that Titan comic book.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

12:56, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Added some more. I strongly feel that we shouldn't use images where the Doctor's forehead is cropped out, it looks ugly and makes it hard to discern their characteristics. I also fully agree with Epsilon's suggestion that all images should be cropped to 4:3 (and have cropped my suggestions accordingly). My current preferences are as follows:

• 1 - B
• 2 - C
• 3 - E
• 4 - A
• The image of 5 is fine.
• 6 - I or P is probably best
• 7 - H
• 8 - C. I get the desire to showcase NotD, but it's really crappily lit for infobox images. Perhaps ::::a Big Finish cover?
• War - D, by a long way.
• 9 - C, then E.
• 10 - That one's fine
• 11 - A
• 12 - F, then C
• 13 - C
• 14 - Probably B, but there's not much between that and the others.
• 15 - C

- Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 22:37, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

As much as I love my original "2 (A)", "2 (B)" and "2 (C)" are magnificent! Those slot in remarkably well with "1 (A)" and "3 (A)"!

And there are some smashing suggestions for the Third Doctor (do remember, my friends, that we can discuss changing the Doctors' individual pages if a really good suggestion just doesn't mesh well with the other images in the gallery...), but ultimately I'm not sure "3 (A)" can be beaten for such a line-up. I know it's my own suggestion, but I'd be saying the same thing if the roles were reversed here... Some serious competition, though, for sure.

Also, looking again on my phone with the night filter on, I'm realising that "15 (G)" through "15 (J)" might also be too dark, at least unmodified.

I don't think we should seriously entertain "8 (I)", personally, on the basis that that isn't the real Eighth Doctor.

"6 (H)" is very nice. My vote, at this stage, would be between that and the original "6 (A)", ultimately in favour of H as the best option.

As for 7, I really like "7 (D)", "7 (F)" and "7 (G)". And I oppose my own suggestion for 7, now we've got many better options. As to which one I like the most, I'll have to try them each out in context...

(I would like to stress that we need to take a holistic view when choosing our final candidates. Please do explain why you like a certain candidate, if at all possible, especially in relation to your other preferred candidates, so we can do something better, in the end, than a simple tally.)

(Think variety. Think cohesion. Think eyeline matches, if that's what's important to you. Maybe the Seventh Doctor's eyeline being higher than the others is what you want. Maybe it takes you out of it...)
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   02:01, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and we dismissed it last time, but I don't see why we shouldn't at least consider some Big Finish covers. I know the general rule we follow (for good reason) is that we only use covers when no other sources are available to illustrate something... but consider this: the only TV/WC source we have for McGann's Dark Eyes look is (some are arguing) too dark to meet our requirements.

Also, of course, the big reason to use TV sources for the other Doctors, apart from visual consistency, is that those are all from their original eras. "McGann's era" is a nebulous concept, and you could even argue that his era didn't end until 2013, and actually overlapped with other Doctors. Or indeed that it's still ongoing, since we are still exploring new eras and new companions!
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   02:09, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh! "6 (K)" is also nice. 14's options are very nice, but dark.

For 13, it's between A and C for me, with a preference for A. I just think it's framed very well, and captures her energy. To be honest, I think we should use whichever one isn't selected here for Thirteenth Doctor.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   06:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I really love the new options for 5! Wowza. For 15, I would vote K and L over A. These are much better options, as they're from his actual era.

(Please don't let my request for expanding your thoughts dissuade you from contributing, by the way! All contributions welcome.)
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   22:35, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Of the options we have available, my preferences are:

• 1B - captures Hartnell well, nicely framed too
• 2C - mirrors Hartnell smiling, nicely framed, reads well with good lighting
• 3C or 3G - slightly more serious Pertwee, head fully in frame, well lit
• 4A or 4B or 4C - all of these are great, and I'd suggest we use one on the Fourth Doctor page too
• 5A or 5G - just personal preference, no real argument, most shots of 5 are good here
• 6H or 6I or 6P - I prefer seeing 6 in his usual costume, all three of these are well framed, and I like that he's smiling in them
• 7C or 7F or 7H - hard to choose, if 7H then it could be slightly more cropped
• 8C - again, could be slightly better cropped, but well lit and well framed
• WarG - I like WarE but Tennant is sharing the frame, WarG is dark but lit well and shows the anguish of his incarnation
• 9A - slightly haunting, cuts off his head a little but I think 9C is a bit dark
• 10A - it's just a great image, and I wish we also had a better one for the Tenth Doctor page too [discussion there has stalled]
• 11A or 11B - both showcase Smith's face well, and both are nicely framed
• 12A - it's just the best lit one out of the selection, in my opinion
• 13C - maybe cropped better, well lit, good framing, second place goes to 13A
• 14? - no preference, they're all a bit dark for my liking
• 15? - also no preference, they're all a bit dark and murky for my liking, I'd only rule out 15A because it's not really from his era but *shrug* — Fractal • 12:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Of the 15 ones, I'd say 15 (C) sticks out to me as the best option (although I do wish people would start using PNGs more over JPGs...). Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 15:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)