User:SOTO/Forum Archive/The Reference Desk
User:SOTO/Forum Archive/The Reference Desk XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/Reference desk/Thread:117208
This forum is here for you to ask questions about specific parts of the Doctor Who universe, or those people, places and things that help create the DWU.
You're in the right place to ask a question if you:
- can't quite remember where you saw "the aliens with the lizard heads"
- have a picture of someone from the DWU, but you don't know who it is
- are wondering about transmission dates for a programme
- want to know what issues of Doctor Who Adventures feature Rose Tyler after Billie Piper quit the show
- want to check whether you heard what you think you heard on The Massacre soundtrack
- or anything like this
Basically, this is the forum to come to when you're searching for facts.
- CzechOut
We've had a few questions lately that have basically been trying to solicit opinion about events that aren't actually depicted in any story. Questions about, for instance, how Rose got her job at Henrik's, or what kind of A-levels Martha had, or who Donna's best friend was in Grade 10, aren't for this board because they require fan speculation.
As the original welcome message makes clear, this board is for searching for facts.
If you want to talk about the great unknowns in the DWU, please click through to The Howling, where speculation is the order of the day.
Now, lemme make clear that we don't want to stop you from asking questions. It's just important to ask the questions in the right way. Here's a little guide for the kind of questions this board can deal with:
good for Reference Desk good for The Howling Does any story establish who Rose's first kiss was? Who do you think was Rose's first kiss? Is there any narrative in which Martha's is described as having done an English A-Level? Do you think Martha knows Shakespeare was married in 1599 because she got an A-Level in English? Basically the difference between here and The Howling is one of attitude. At the Reference Desk, we're much more about yes/no or factual answers. We actively try to banish opinion from this board. The Howling is a much looser place. It gives you a chance just to kick around a subject in the way that fan forums like Gallifrey Base often do.
That said, bear in mind that discussions here can impact the way that articles are edited. Discussions at The Howling are just for fun. The Howling can never be used as a place to hash out the writing of an article.
- Roguegenius1955
Where did Peter Cushing's Doctor fit into the regeneration scenario?
- Shambala108
He doesn't - the Cushing Dr. Who is a human.
- Roguegenius1955
How could "a human" be Dr. Who? I guess I must find the movie and watch it. All I know is he is listed as "the doctor" in the character list on imdb.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/Reference desk/Thread:117256
In the audio story pest control, a major part of the plot was a killer robot. I can not remember its name, and it is not written anywhere on this wiki. Can anyone help me?
- Ventry Girl
According to http://www.drwhoguide.com/pestcontrol.htm it's a Sharback pest control robot. I haven't listened to the audio so I don't know how accurate the synopsis is. Hope this helps.
- Quest?on
Thanks!
- Ventry Girl
You're welcome!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:118175
I'm deleting the page called Dalek-Human War, because all its content is based upon a non-narrative source. However, other pages suggest — barely — that the term may in fact be present in The Only Good Dalek. Can anyone who owns that graphic novel please check it for the existence of the term, and then report back here with the exact reference? Thanks :)
- Cult_Of_Skaro
Okay. Lemme check my copy.
- CzechOut
Have ya found anything yet, Cult of Skaro?
- Cult_Of_Skaro
Sorry, haven't gotten to it yet. Apologies.
- CzechOut
Anything yet?
- Cult_Of_Skaro
NO, it doesn't look like it.
- Tangerineduel
I've had a (quick) look and the only thing that mentions war and humanity is the opening narrative box which states:
- "The war had raged for a hundred years - humanity standing against the might and terror of the Daleks."
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:118731
In the New Christmas episode of Doctor who the Gentleman who owns the home the pond is on is named Captain Latimer. This is the same name as the Boy in the boy's home, Timothy Latimer, who stole the doctor's pocket watch when Tenant turned human to avoid the family of blood. Not Sure how they really related, but I noticed the stairwell the ice woman gets caught on is the same you see tenant tumble down when he gets all goofy over the human girl.
- Bubblecamera
Well, let's see. The Christmas special takes place in 1892 and Human Nature/The Family of Blood in 1913, so that's a 21-year difference between them. Timothy is obviously younger than 21 in HN/TFoB, so theoretically, Captain Latimer could have remarried a few years after The Snowmen and had a third child, Timothy.
Or maybe Timothy is Captain Latimer's nephew, or third cousin once removed, or some other relation. Whatever you think happens, it's possible!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:119264
Just have not seen every episode of Dr. Who, since it was spotty at best in the early days here in the states, so don't know if any previous Dr has done what Tennant did in I think was The Stolen Earth/Journeys End, and that was regenerate just enough to fix his body.
- CzechOut
That was a Russell T Davies innovation, but it was prefigured by the bit in The Christmas Invasion where Ten healed his newly-regenerated hand. So he had in fact "healed himself regeneratively" before.
No previous Doctors had used regenerative energy in that way before, but Romana's controlled and highly optional regeneration in Destiny of the Daleks certainly suggests the possibility.
- 108.239.84.158
Thanks for the info because like I said gotten spotty viewing where I live which is in South Florida. When I started watching Tom Baker was the Dr. and also saw Peter Davidson and then not after that till they rebooted the series(if one can call it that and not just a restart) so I plead ignorant of some of the show.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:119276
Is timothy latimer of season 3 related to the latimer family of season 7?
- CzechOut
Hmmm, interestingly, no matter how you take the phrase "season 7", there's a Latimer: Latimer from Inferno and Latimer from The Snowmen. Neither have ever been narratively connected to Tim Latimer, no.
- 72.81.129.8
CzechOut wrote: Hmmm, interestingly, no matter how you take the phrase "season 7", there's a Latimer: Latimer from Inferno and Latimer from The Snowmen. Neither have ever been narratively connected to Tim Latimer, no.
Do you think there could be a background connection even if they have never said it?
- Bubblecamera
To The Howling with this!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:119357
Quick question for British editors only:
In your opinion, if a show aired on the "CBBC strand on BBC One", was it broadcast on BBC One or CBBC? Our dates for SJA and TDW eps are actually pointing to the premieres of those episodes, which were, with I think only one exception, on "BBC One branded as CBBC", not any of the CBBC digital channels.
Obviously the shows were commissioned and funded by CBBC, but it strikes me that their debuts (with, I think, only one exception) were actually on BBC One. Where there have been similar, temporary channel re-branding in America, there's no question but that you'd say it was still the main network. Saturday morning cartoons may have had a overarching name from time to time, but you were absolutely still on ABC, NBC or whatever.
But I'm not British, so I don't know how that whole "CBBC on BBC One" thing was "perceived" by the average Briton.
- Tybort
Huh, as far as I was aware, the SJA series 4 and 5 episodes I watched premiered on the digital channel. Can't remember either way about Totally Doctor Who, though.
Looking at the iPlayer for recent repeats of Sarah Jane, it mentions the premiere channel as CBBC.
- CzechOut
Nah, they were definitely on CBBC-branded BBC One, except for like one part of one SJA story in either series 4 or series 5.- Heh I stand corrected. I was thinking of the move to BBC Two one week, not the BBC/CBBC split. Yeah, SJA did go CBBC digital first, bar the premiere.
- TDW, though, definitely did transmit during the CBBC-branded BBC One afternoon. So the question still stands. Is that most properly thought of as CBBC or BBC One?
- Digifiend
The disambiguation would be CBBC channel and CBBC on BBC1. As I recall, the first episode of SJA aired on red brand BBC One, the rest were on the CBBC channel, except for the first episode of each of the first two seasons (Revenge of the Slitheen and The Last Sontaran, they aired the next episode straight after on the channel). Those season premieres and all of Totally aired on the CBBC block on BBC One first.
- CzechOut
Right, but the question is would you consider "CBBC branded BBC One" to be BBC One or CBBC?
- Eladkse
It is very hard to say whether these are "CBBC" or "BBC One".
As far as I know, the BBC always called their children's brand on the channels as 'CBBC on BBC One/Two', and considered them separate from main BBC programming. While CBBC was on these channels, there was no BBC One/Two branding to speak of, all idents were CBBC, all trailers were CBBC, and any DOGs that appeared (very rarely) were CBBC branded.
However, the format of 'CBBC on BBC One/Two' has varied. Sometimes, shows were links with idents and a continuity announcer. Else, presentation between shows was done from a studio. It gets even more confusing when you consider that on Saturday mornings, they had shows within other live shows in the CBBC strand (while this seems like I'm detracting from the main point, this may help us define what 'CBBC on BBC One/Two' actually is).
CBBC's dedicated channel has always been referred to as the "CBBC Channel" - both in continuity and on EPGs. I personally think that if we are to be best accurate, any premiers on BBC One should be classed as BBC One, and anything on the dedicated channel should be CBBC Channel. I personally believe the current article CBBC is incorrect, in that "CBBC" is a brand, and "CBBC Channel" is the channel.
- CzechOut
That's a very useful distinction, between CBBC and CBBC Channel. I think that's how we'll probably go.
- Digifiend
That's how Wikipedia does it.
- 31.52.8.73
Esjay
The CBBC secton on BBC 1 started as Children's Hour and that was the origins of CBBC (Childrens B B C). The funding all along was for children's television and Dr Who originally came from this pot. As SJA was for this stream it could be argued that it is all CBBC. The digital channels came later and there are 2 of them.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:119651
This is a question for anyone who knows,
I was wondering if there is such thing as a comprehensive timeline for all of the Doctor Who stories (TV, comic, audio etc). For example I believe I remember seeing a page about a TV story (i forget which one specifically) and the links that normally state which episodes preceded and followed it was replaced with links of an audio story that preceded it and a comic story that followed. I suppose it is essentially a record of the Doctor's personal timeline (that exists in stories). I understand that most of the Audio/comic stories don't always flow directly into TV episodes or other stories, but I figured someone probably could place it in the Doctor's personal timeline with relative accuracy based on clues within the story of what the Doctor and his companion say they have experienced so far.
My question in a nutshell is if there is a comprehensive, chronological list of all the stories (within canon) that have been made of the Doctor including but not limited to stories from TV, Comics, Books and Audio. And if there is can someone direct me to it?
Thank You
- Theband65
PS I'm really only interested in Doctor Who stories specifically, not the spinoff's.
- Skittles the hog
Unfortunately, no such list exists, which is why canon is such a contentious issue for fans.
- Shambala108
We removed timeline information from the main pages because most of it was speculation and/or borrowed from another source. But you do have two options.
On this site, we have some timeline pages for various characters on a different namespace called Theory:Timey-wimey detector.
Also, Wikipedia has a page under "List of Doctor Who serials by setting" that includes spinoffs, but is color-coded so you can easily ignore what you don't like.
- Skittles the hog
I think the user is looking for an official personal timeline of the Doctor.
- CzechOut
Well, Theband65 never used the word official, only comprehensive. There can never be an "official" timeline because there is no such thing as canon. But there certainly can be, and are, several unofficial timelines.
None of them are exhaustive, because you'd have to devote your whole life to that endeavour, given the fact that easily 100 new stories are officially released every year.
A truly accurate timeline is also absolutely impossible, because so many of the adventures are completely undated. We don't really know — and will never know — when, for example, the Fourth Doctor Short Trips take place relative to each other. We can say that this story with Leela had to take place before this other story with Adric, because we know when those two companions travelled with the Doctor relative to each other. But we don't know when this story with Leela took place relative to this other story with Leela.
And in fact, we don't even know when some televised stories take palace relative to each other. The note we get for Carnival of Monsters is simply that it's "placed in broadcast order". That happens a lot on fan timelines, like the ones at Whoniverse and, of course, the Doctor Who Reference Guide. There's absolutely no reason to assume that Carnival of Monsters takes place between The Three Doctors and Frontier in Space. It's just that we assume the adventures take place in broadcast order. I've never understood why fans just accept that, since it was disproven by Season 25, which is demonstrably broadcast out of narrative order. But they regularly accept — for some reason — that a show about a time traveller broadcasts its stories in narrative order.
All that said, the people over at The Whoniverse have created something you'll want to look at, given your stated interests. This site is not a valid source for the writing of our articles. But it's along the lines of what you were asking for.
Also, if you go on the Wayback Machine, you can probably still find the remnants of the old Outpost Gallifrey timeline, which stopped between the 2005 and 2006 series. Click here. Again, this is not a valid source for the writing of our articles. But it is fun.
- 68.37.7.217
Yeah I figured the answer would be something along those lines. Thanks though!
- Theband65
Yeah I figured it'd be something along those lines. Just figured I'd ask anyway though. I didn't even know that canon was such a gray area in the Doctor Who universe. Are there some mediums (Audio, comics, novels etc) that are more often accepted as canon as opposed to other mediums (excluding the TV show)? Or is asking that question essentially opening up Pandora's box amongst the fans?
My last question is just a clarification of what you guys are telling me. So what I'm understanding is that if you were able to determine what you personally considered canon you could create a "comprehensive timeline" of the Doctor's stories. However it would only be accurate to a certain extent because of the lack of chronological evidence.
Thanks again! - Cult_Of_Skaro
CzechOut wrote: All that said, the people over at The Whoniverse have created something you'll want to look at, given your stated interests.
Why do they call Doctor Who (TV story) The Enemy Within?
- CzechOut
Cult Of Skaro wrote:
Why do they call Doctor Who (TV story) The Enemy Within?
Fan misconception. See The Enemy Within.
- CzechOut
Theband65 wrote: Yeah I figured it'd be something along those lines. Just figured I'd ask anyway though. I didn't even know that canon was such a gray area in the Doctor Who universe. Are there some mediums (audio, comics, novels etc) that are more often accepted as canon as opposed to other mediums (excluding the TV show)? Or is asking that question essentially opening up Pandora's box amongst the fans?
My last question is just a clarification of what you guys are telling me. So what I'm understanding is that if you were able to determine what you personally considered canon you could create a "comprehensive timeline" of the Doctor's stories. However it would only be accurate to a certain extent because of the lack of chronological evidence.
Thanks again!
Canons definitionally require an authority that cares about defining certain works as "true" and others as "apocrypha". The authority in the case of Doctor Who is the BBC, who have, on most occasions, denied the existence of a canon. It's not just that they have been silent — both Russell T Davies and Steven Moffat have flatly said there is no canon. Hence there can't be a "Doctor Who canon".
This leaves it up to the individual to decide what they want. As to whether there's a "standard" way of thinking about canon, well, yeah, that's opening up a can o' worms. You'll find some that believe the TV stories alone are canon, all performed Who is canon, everything but comics are canon, and tons of different permutations in between.
That's why this wiki doesn't even dabble in canon. Our rules and guidelines only speak to that which we consider a valid source for writing our articles. We don't assert authority, merely manageability, as a guideline. We don't say you have to believe in any particular notion of canon, but we do insist upon a certain "radius of coverage", so that our wiki can have practical, manageable borders.
(It's been a struggle for us making this distinction, though, since we pre-date the BBC Wales revival and the post-Human Nature, Cornell-led backlash in DW fandom against canon. Thus, though we are officially opposed to canon — i.e. T:CAN — you will find the word cropping up in our discussions a lot.)
If you're new to the whole concept of canon and Doctor Who, you might find this blog post instructive and fairly comprehensive.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
You predate the BBC Wales revival? When was this wiki even started?
- CzechOut
11 November 2004. We predate even the name "Wikia". We're one of the original WikiCities wikis.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
That's incredible!
- Cult_Of_Skaro
What was the first article?
- CzechOut
That's hard to say because there is a gap in the records, owing to an early code update which obscures our earliest records. Edits before February 2005 aren't well understood.
But you'll certainly find evidence of editing as early as 16 February 2005. Tardis:About and Main Page (as it was then known) were edited on that date. Castrovalva already existed by that date, but we don't know exactly when Castrovalva was started, because our first surviving record of that page is when it was moved to Castrovalva (TV story) on 16 March 2005. Clearly it had to exist to be moved.
One of the other things that suggests our age is the rather cool fact that we have a number of fairly mundane administrative edits by Angela. She's the co-founder of WikiCities/Wikia along with Jimbo Wales, and the fact that she took such a direct interest in the minutiae of our setup, and even just vandalism-fighting, suggests just how early in the life of WikiCities our wiki was. I mean, she's got edits on Tardis:About, which is just crazy. You'd never see a modern Wikia Staff member with that kind of direct intervention on an About page.
By the way, if you wondering how we can assert the 11 November 2004 date as our start date when we don't have records from before February 2005, it's because it was directly supplied by Wikia. Although our current logs don't have this data, Wikia have kept records of the older log system, and it is the one which gives, correctly, Mantrid as the founder and November 2004 as the start date.
The earliest months of our wiki are a fascinating time to explore, mainly because there are so many dead end trails. It looks like Mantrid is in no way the founder, because he's welcomed to the wiki in July 2005, and there's a record of Freethinker1of1 granting Mantrid bureaucrat status in October of 2005. But in fact none of that was necessary, or even makes much sense. We have clear records that Mantrid was actively contributing from early March 2005, so the welcome in July makes no sense. And since Wikia have definitely confirmed that he was the founder, he wouldn't have needed the bureaucrat status placed on him, but it was still possible to grant it. Tangerineduel couldn't re-grant me bureaucrat status these days — once it's done, it's done — but, according to the Wikia dev notes, there was a point where it was possible.
I wish I had been here just a little bit earlier to keep local records of the wiki in that infant state, but, alas, I can only be a bit of an archaeologist.
- Tangerineduel
Theband65 wrote: Yeah I figured it'd be something along those lines. Just figured I'd ask anyway though. I didn't even know that canon was such a gray area in the Doctor Who universe. Are there some mediums (Audio, comics, novels etc) that are more often accepted as canon as opposed to other mediums (excluding the TV show)? Or is asking that question essentially opening up Pandora's box amongst the fans?
My last question is just a clarification of what you guys are telling me. So what I'm understanding is that if you were able to determine what you personally considered canon you could create a "comprehensive timeline" of the Doctor's stories. However it would only be accurate to a certain extent because of the lack of chronological evidence.
Thanks again!Basically, yes, if you can decide what counts for you then you could create a comprehensive (for you) timeline.
Or once you've decided what's canon for you you're able to read other people's timelines and ignore the stories that don't fit your understanding of a timeline.
As well as those already mentioned I'd recommend Lance Parkin's AHistory whose third edition is huge and covers a lot. It's more of a history than a timeline though.
As for acceptance amongst fans / fan guides. The answer is not really and kinda, and it depends.
Basically in the 90s it was relatively easy to keep up to date with DW fiction. Virgin/BBC Books published all the prose and there were 1-2 books a month. Plus DWM's comic. That's not a huge amount of stories being generated, so there were lots of timelines produced around that time because the pool of information was large but not growing at an out of control rate.
Once we hit the 2000s Big Finish gets in on the game and then in 2005 the BBC. Since then the amount of stories has been increasing at a fairly steady rate. So writing timelines becomes a more complex job.
What this means is that there are probably more comprehensive timelines from pre-2005 than there are post-2005.
Some timelines also are vague about things and slot things in 'where they fit. The Doctor Who Reference Guide does this with many stories (short stories especially) they've noted "time placement arbitrary").
- 68.142.55.0
Wow. Thank you for all the great information, guys. It's Fabulous that you take such time and effort to respond to others' queries...
I find all of this FASCINATING. Yeah, that just goes to show what a bad case of cabin fever i'm suffering from... I'm a several year fan of the TV show. I'm only recently finding my way around the internet and these wikis. I'm often feeling too backwards to join in conversations...but seeing how genuinely supportive of fellow fans you all are has given me courage. Thanks for all you do...
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:119806
In addition to the three instances listed in the article, this song was also playing in the waiting room of Rory's hospital in Eleventh Doctor's episode "The Power of Three."
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:120520
Hi there! Would any of you fine folks happen to know if there is any sort of explanation of Characters' names and what their 'larger' meanings could be within the context of the whoniverse? For instance, Donna Noble is, i believe, a reference to an honorific title: Donna Nobella ( heir to a reigning title?). I think it refers to Noble Titles, though i'm a bit iffy on the hierarchy of such things~ a friend explained it as, i believe, for instance, the second daughter of a Contessa in Italian.{Donna is the feminine of Don: "don comes from a medieval styling for very esteemed persons, it is a colloquial form of Dominus - the Latin for Lord"}. I'd like to find out more about what this might mean for Donna Noble's Character in the scheme of things, as well as what references or allusions might be incorporated into other characters' names. I'm a very giddy but 'casual' fan and do not know where on the internet or in life to find this stuff out... Many Thanks in advance! S from VT
- Josiah Rowe
Welcome! Like so much in Doctor Who, the interpretation of characters' names is largely up to the individual viewer. There's no "secret code" intended by the show's writers or producers. Russell T Davies in particular liked to reuse certain names in his work: before Rose Tyler, he had Rose in Bob and Rose, and he used the name Harkness in Century Falls before he thought up Captain Jack Harkness.
That's not to say that you, as a viewer, can't find meanings in the characters' names. If Donna Noble means "noble lady", perhaps she was so named because unlike the two younger women who preceded her, she saw herself as an equal to the Time Lord. In The Eleventh Hour the grown-up Amy Pond says that "Amelia" was "a bit fairy-tale", which is a clear pointer towards the tone Steven Moffat wanted for Series Five. Going further back, one could say that the Seventh Doctor used Ace as his "trump card" in his ongoing game with Fenric. Some characters in the classic series did show their origins in their names: for example, Adric's name is an anagram of the scientist Paul Dirac, who described the universe with mathematics — a skill which Adric shared.
But in general writers just use names they think sound right for the character they're creating. In early discussions in the genesis of Doctor Who, his granddaughter Susan was called Biddy!
If you would like to discuss these ideas with other Doctor Who fans, I recommend the forum at www.gallifreybase.com. You'll find lots of fans, old and new, and I'm sure there will be people there with more interesting ideas about character names. Happy hunting!
- 68.142.55.0
You rock, Josiah Rowe. You're sweet, informative, helpful, and i admire the grace and restraint with which you characterize Dirac! I'm relieved to know that i haven't missed some Wise Tome dedicated solely to over analyzing the meaning of WhoNames.... And as i'm fairly new to the interweb, i thank thee for the tip regarding a good Forum; i tend to eschew social pursuits but may dip my toes in the water. I've come down with a particularly virulent strain of WhoFlu...Be Well and Seize Joy. This Wiki seems the brainchild of genuinely kind and dedicated fans, i'm honored to have sipped of your wine.
- Josiah Rowe
Aw, shucks.
I know of only one treatment for WhoFlu: wrap yourself up in a warm blanket, get plenty of fluids, and watch more Who! (It's a "hair of the dog" cure.)
- Imamadmad
Josiah Rowe wrote: If you would like to discuss these ideas with other Doctor Who fans, I recommend the forum at www.gallifreybase.com.
OR you could try the forum dedicated to speculation at this very wiki; Howling:The Howling. Honestly, why does everyone forget about the Howling? I understand that it's one of the only places where spoilers are allowed on this wiki, and some people want to avoid spoilers, but that doesn't mean the forum has to be ignored completely! Anyway, happy Whoing.
- 68.142.42.243
test
- 68.142.55.114
Thank you both... I'm a bit technically challenged... but i'll try 'the howling', too. Several times, in trying to access these replies, i was unable to... Hey, i've come across a couple typos- and imagining you Real Editors have far more important things to do, i deleted an "is" from a double "is is" on a page... hope that sort of thing is OK.. i think of it as paying my Toll... Take Care! {there was no talk page on this article- so i just did it instead of reporting it}
- 68.142.55.114
Sorry, How do i access 'the howling' forum? Community? Thank you so much!
- CzechOut
Yep, you'll find it under the "community" tab of the top navigation menu. Or you can just enter
Howling:The Howlinginto the search bar. - SOTO
Number one, simple things like spelling mistakes/typos never need to be reported. You should only report in the Talk page if you're making a huge change/deleting something big like whole sections.
Number two, just click here to access The Howling. Enjoy!
- SOTO
That's twice in a minute! You really ARE on top of things, Czech! You keep on answering less than a minute before I do! And, yes, that required three exclamation points.
- Digifiend
Speaking of names... Jones seems to be an RTD favourite. We have companion Martha, prime minister Harriet, and Torchwood's Ianto, all unrelated!
- Josiah Rowe
That's just because he's Welsh. Half of Wales is named Jones, don't you know?
- 68.142.40.53
i noticed today that the Bus in The end of Time is called 'the sparrow' and one of the elders is named 'Sally'... but i've yet to see if it's repeated elsewhere (other than 'Blink', natch... and Tyler seems to come up a bit... Again, thanks.. I did post a query in 'The Howling' about the 'Time Lock', but i'm not sure if it was posted. I'll check later; Thank you for helping with all the remedial Tech stuff!
- 68.142.44.1
Hi, i attempted to post on the howling... yesterday... but i got a weird screen like it was archiving itself immediately, and it does not seem to have posted... am i doing something wrong that is easy to diagnose? if so, could you please 'splain it to me? Many thanks... {by the by, 'sally' is in almost every episode i've watched...an in joke or staffer?
- Shambala108
You're right, I tried to post something on the Howling just now and the same thing happened to me. I think Wikia was undergoing some weird stuff a little while ago, maybe that has something to do with it. Otherwise, I'm sure Czechout will be around sometime soon and might be able to fix it.
- CzechOut
Sorry 'bout that. I always forget that when archiving the Howling, it converts the Howling {{forumheader}} into a link to the archive. All fixed.
But now, if you'll forgive me, this thread has wandered around enough, and it should be archived.
- 68.142.37.155
Hi, i'm seeing that a number of you have replied, thanks. But every time i click on this thread, the last post i can actually access is the one i left over a day ago... none that are previewed on the right side of the screen under wiki activity... I thought this was me, but i'm beginning to think this might be an idiosyncratic site bug? I'll keep checking back. Thank you again, sorry to be a bother.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:120631
The Doctor tries to take Rose to see both Elvis and Ian Dury during Series 2, and he's also said that he got his long coat from Janis Joplin. I was just wondering there was a comprehensive list of music that the Doctor likes that I could look at. Doesn't matter how it's organized; I'm just curious.
- CzechOut
Well, there's nothing to indicate that he actually likes Janis Joplin or the music of Elvis. We can assume he likes Ian Dury and the Blockheads because he actually chooses to play their music and sing along to it. But Joplin? Nah, we only know he got his coat from her. Elvis? We only know he finds impersonation fun, and that maybe he sees Elvis on The Ed Sullivan Show as an important historical milestone.
It's because of this sort of subjective determination that we generally eschew categories and pages that propose a value of some kind — like/dislike, enemy/friend, good/bad.
So, no, there's no such list — and one would almost certainly get deleted round here.
- CzechOut
Of course, within the confines of a forum post, I can rustle you up my opinions of his musical predilections.
The First Doctor of course faked playing the lyre in The Romans. The issue of whether he liked lyre music is quite beside the point of the story, though, so it's probably not safe to say much about his musical tastes. We know he didn't have the same reaction to The Beatles as Ian, though. Thank goodness.
Two, of course, famously played the recorder, but only for a period of time that was much briefer than is commonly assumed. In fact, he really only had the recorder for his first few stories. By about The Macra Terror, he dropped the recorder and his musical side altogether. The Three Doctors and various Doctor Who annuals brought back the recorder — but neither were accurately portraying the vast majority of the Second Doctor's televised appearances.
Three was constantly humming something, especially while driving. It was kinda what Pertwee did in those moments where a companion wasn't in shot with him. Although he mostly confined himself to classical or traditional music (read: stuff that was out of copyright), he did at least once show a fondness for modern music. Immediately prior to Jo Grant's arrival in Terror of the Autons, he's clearly heard singing "I Don't Want to Set the World on Fire" by The Ink Spots. To my mind, though, it's unclear that this is the Third Doctor actually expressing a preference so much as Pertwee setting up a little joke. Immediately after singing this, smoke appears on set. "On fire" — get it? Yeah, it's not exactly subtle humour.
If Three hummed traditional melodies, Four whistled them. Before JNT got in there and sucked the fun out of Doctor Who, Four whistled the "Colonel Bogey March" in three different serials in the Hinchcliffe and Williams' eras.
The Celery Dude was the least overtly musical incarnation since the first. I can't think of an expression of interest in music at any time on television. But we do know he could read music and play the harp to some level of proficiency, since we see him do it in The Five Doctors.
We know that Sixie knew who Count Basie was, and implied that Basie was in some way a superlative musician. ([[COMIC}]: The Gift) Does this mean he liked Count Basie? I dunno. He also has some ability to play music, as "[[Toccata and Fugue in D minor" is what he uses as a key to unlock the TARDIS when its exterior is in the form of an organ. Does this mean he likes Bach? Well, I dunno. But would you make your musical key something you hated? See, speculation. That's why I'm writing this here rather than in a regular article.
We do know, thanks to Big Finish, that he definitely likes Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. That's rather the point of AUDIO: My Own Private Wolfgang. we also know — again thanks to writer Robert Shearman — that he learned how to waltz and foxtrot, which would be pretty hard to do if you hated those styles of music. (PROSE: Teach Yourself Ballroom Dancing)
Seven was absolutely a jazz fan, particularly of the "smooth-blowing" style of Courtney Pine. We know, cause he says it directly in Silver Nemesis — "this is my favourite kind of jazz". His love of jazz is finally confirmed in the 1996 tele-film, where we hear him playing a jazz singer right before he dies. However, he also must know Giacomo Puccini, since he recognises it on the operating table. Hard to know whether he likes Puccini, but his successor certainly does. It's kinda integral to the plot of the TVM that Eight loves Puccini and Madame Butterfly. It gives him a point of commonality with Grace.
Nine is a Sinatra fan, apparently — or maybe a Guys and Doll fan — since he launches into "Luck Be a Lady" shortly after entering Rose's flat in Rose. He also has some native music ability, since we see him playing an alien instrument of some kind in Dalek. As far as I know, this is the only occurrence of any incarnation playing a non-human instrument in a televised story.
As stated above, I think we can also safely assume that Ten loved Ian Dury and the Blockheads, thanks to the opening scene of Tooth and Claw. (In fact, this is kinda consistent with Silver Nemesis since "Hit Me with Your Rhythm Stick" has an extensive saxophone solo section that could be described as "smooth blowing".
We also know that Ten fancied himself a classical composer, because of Music of the Spheres, which implies he must have had some sort of favourites among other composers. We know he likes opera from the comic story Opera of Doom!. It's also possible to infer that he likes the soundtrack of The Lion King, since he subconsciously quotes from it in The Christmas Invasion. We could theoretically extrapolate that he loves the songs of The Muppet Movie, since it's hard to imagine how he could love that film without also loving the music.
We also know a little about Ten's dislikes. He hates David Hasselhoff, according to the book Autonomy.
The Eleventh Doctor has made all sorts of claims about the people with whom he's played music. We see him rapping in Pond Life. He says he played a recorder while jamming with Charlie Parker, the triangle during the recording of "L'amour est un oiseau rebelle", and the piano with Franz Schubert. He also squeezed in a duet with Frank Sinatra in 1952 and somehow arranged for Stevie Wonder to show up in 19th century London. If he and River are to be believed, then, he appears to have a wide range of musical tastes — not to mention the widest range of actual musical ability of any of the Doctors. Of course, it's an explicit plot point of the Eleventh Doctor that the Doctor lies.
If you want more, I suggest you take a stroll through the following categories:
- Shambala108
Two actually played the recorder in 3 stories of his second season as well, so it's a bit more ubiquitous than you might think.
- CzechOut
Shambala108 wrote: Two actually played the recorder in 3 stories of his second season as well, so it's a bit more ubiquitous than you might think.
Well, after Macra, there are three very brief scenes in Evil, Abominable and Web of Fear totalling maybe 10 seconds. He's virtually done by Macra. Neither Victoria nor Zoe ever hear him play the recorder. In the first three stories, and particularly in Power of the Daleks, the recorder play is profound. It's a major part of his character.
By The War Games part 10, it's been 57 episodes since he last played the recorder — however briefly — in Web part 6. That's one more than the number of episodes made in the old show's final four seasons. Or, looking at it a different way, Troughton was sans recorder for 14 episodes longer than McCoy was the Doctor (excluding Two's colour escapades).
And if you consider that Tom Baker had a scarf, Peter Davison had celery, Colin Baker had a cat badge, and Sylvester McCoy had that stupid umbrella for all but a handful of episodes of their runs, the recorder is a much lesser feature of the Second Doctor's era. He had it for most of The Power of the Daleks, a decent amount of the next two serials, and then only about one episode of Macra, Evil, Abominable and Web.
It's much closer to being barely present than ubiquitous.
- SOTO
Also, don't forget "Who do you think played hands three and four?" from Dinosaurs.
- OttselSpy25
I think just about ever Doctor at one point at another was suggested to have liked The Beatles..
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:120679
The Amy Pond page reference Craig Owens being in only one episode - he was in two.
- SOTO
I've noticed that once before. Let me point out, though, thst it says that he was only a COMPANION for one story, referring to Closing Time. I'm assuming that this is because he wasn't a companion in his first episode, rather just a guest star. By the way, this question really belongs in the talk page. But I'm glad you're paying enough attention to notice this possible error. It shows the mark of the true editor. If you want to help us more, I'd recommend you'd start an account for the many added beniits. Happy editing! :-)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:120846
Throughout any medium are there stories where the story title isn't mentioned in the dialogue or story text?
It seems like all the post-2005 era TV stories seem to want to name check the story title in episode.
The "classic" era has some fairly hard to work into conversation titles like the final 3 Dalek stories; Resurrection, Revelation and Remembrance of the Daleks.
Yet it seems like for most of Big Finish's audio output the title is in the dialogue.
With the books it seems at first glance most of the EDAs and PDAs would be able to work in the title, the same goes for most of the NA and MAs. Though something like Timewyrm: Genesys it's unlikely is in the text, Timewyrm is, though Genesys probably isn't.
- Imamadmad
Story titles mentioned in narrative was speculated over at the howling a while ago to maybe some sort of story arc for series 7. However, it was then realised that a Town Called Mercy never had its full name mentioned in narrative, kinda debunking the theory. So yes, example one would be A Town Called Mercy.
- CzechOut
Many, many story titles aren't in the dialogue of that story.
Some quite obviously aren't, like An Unearthly Child and Four to Doomsday, Tooth and Claw, The Unquiet Dead, The Eleventh Hour, and Time-Flight.
Others only narrowly miss the mark, like The Time Meddler, where the Monk is called "a time meddler", not the definitive Time Meddler. Or The Wedding of River Song, where you hear all those words, but not consecutively.
Then you have the case where the name appears, but there's debate about whether it's the actual title. The Daleks is the most obvious example, but there are any number of TV Comic stories where the name comes from dialogue out of necessity, but there isn't actually a name for the story.
Confining ourselves just to BBC Wales televised stories, I'd say the following titles don't appear:
- The Age of Steel
- Aliens of London
- Amy's Choice (very nearly, but not quite)
- The Angels Take Manhattan
- Army of Ghosts (maybe, but I don't think those words appear consecutively)
- Bad Night
- Bad Wolf (I could be wrong, but I don't think it's actually said in the episode, though it appears on the Bad Wolf Corporation logo.)
- Boom Town
- A Christmas Carol (don't believe all words are said)
- The Christmas Invasion (all words are said, but not consecutively)
- Closing Time (I think the sales assistant says "we need to close up" not "it's closing time".)
- Day of the Moon
- The Doctor's Daughter (don't think this exact phrase is in the show, but obviously Jenny is "the Doctor's daughter")
- The Doctor's Wife (don't think this exact phrase is in the show)
- The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe (another literal title, but it's not precisely in the script)
- Doomsday (don't think it's there, is it?)
- The Eleventh Hour
- The Empty Child (it's not exactly there, though all the words swirl around the script)
- Evolution of the Daleks (this one might be there, but I don't think so)
- Father's Day (is it there? I don't think so.)
- Fear Her isn't there
- The Fires of Pompeii
- Flesh and Stone
- Forest of the Dead is possibly there, but if so, the scene is not strongly coming to mind
- The God Complex is so almost there. I think it's said "a god complex" by the Muslim nurse
- Gridlock isn't there, I don't think. It's RTD using a 20th century term for a futuristic setting
- Human Nature, as far as I can remember, isn't there
- The Hungry Earth
- ... and I could go on but I'm bored now.
Point is, as compared with other franchises, Doctor Who does seem to have a much higher percentage of literal, verb-less titles. Though the titles may not be in the dialogue, they are still terribly obvious once you've seen the story. It's like the writers feel obliged to just pick a noun in the story and plop it down on the plate with a great thud.
Compare and contrast with the titles of the more literary Deep Space Nine or The West Wing or M*A*S*H — all of whom weren't afraid to have titles in other languages, titles that made for neat puns, and titles that created great mystery — and it's immediately apparent Doctor Who has no flair for titles.
That's one of the reasons that Let's Kill Hitler was such a great title. It had a verb, it got people talking, and it retrospectively allows for a double-entendre, since the Doctor was potentially a kind of Hitler to the brainwashed River and the Silence she worked for. It was just damned fun.
But highly atypical. Mostly we get stupid, wholly literal like Inferno, The Invasion, Rose, Smith and Jones, The Mark of the Rani, The Curse of the Black Spot, The Twin Dilemma, The Crusade, Marco Polo.
Robert Holmes, brilliant a writer though he was, had absolutely no flair for titles. There's not a damn one of them that is anything but exactly what's in the script. The Ark in Space, The Brain of Morbius, The Krotons, The Space Pirates, The Caves of Androzani, The Mysterious Planet, The Ultimate Foe.
Really, Bob? Thanks for those titles. Helped out a lot.
Of course, I recognise there are times where you do want to be bland. Rose and Smith and Jones and The Eleventh Hour are acceptably bland titles, cause you don't want to give too much away. But you don' want to do it every single time.
Clearly, the winner of the "Worst Titler" award has to go to Robert Holmes. He might rightly be thought of as the best scribe of the old series, but we do have to remember he gave us the worst title of all time. The Deadly Assassin was so incredibly literal that Holmes felt the need to explain the last word of the title with the penultimate word. Just in case you kiddies at home don't get it, an assassin is someone who is deadly. Horrible.
- Tangerineduel
Yes, should really have thought about that in more detail, it was just preying on my mind for a while.
I don't get into the Howling very often Imamadmad so I missed that discussion.
- SOTO
I think Bad Wolf was said.
Are we including written words? The Angels Take Manhattan was a chapter title in the Melody Melone book.
And "Amy's Choice" was said. I believe it was the Dream Lord saying "Amy's boys... Amy's choice." Also, Rory says it at the end in the TARDIS when the Doctor asks him where he wants to go next. So it's actually said twice.
- Quest?on
In A Christmas Carol, the Doctor said the title twice in the scene where he is trying to figure out how to change Kazran's mind.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:120922
can anyone please help with the following unsolvable,impossible clues.
26 across - accessory favoured by hc clements - s*a*s
28 across - possible acronym for organisation run by one of the doctor's former companions - a**
PLEASE HELP ME BEFORE I GO ABSOULTELY INSANE
- Shambala108
28 accross might be ACE.
- CzechOut
26 across is SPATS ("Fat cat in spats")
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:120967
I have a Doctor Who story idea, where or whom do I contact to present it to?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:120993
I was watching this episode again today and started thinking about what was in his room, so I've been looking for some theories on what was in his room but nobody's said mine so I thought I'd throw it out there. I think he saw David Tennant (himself as 10) having sex with Rose. Here's why. Every room isn't necessarily the person's greatest fear; they always refer to the things in the rooms as "bad dreams." I mostly think this because as he leaves, he puts the "Do Not Disturb" sign on the door, which sort of signals something is going on inside he wouldn't want anybody else to see. This seems like it would logically be his worst dream because of how in love with Rose he is, but didn't get to be with her even though she got to be with him. Has anybody else thought of this?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:121071
So I was just wondering where the Doctor got the 3D glasses?
"He used a pair of 3D glasses when observing the effects of the Void on people and objects. (TV: Doomsday)" http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Glasses
Thanks in Advance!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:121897
At the end of the Tennant/Piper episode "New Earth" who was the voice of the NNYPD saying, "This is the NNYPD! Please step away from the shuttles!" Now it could just be rampant fandom but does that sound like John Barrowman to you? I can't find any reference to who that really is.
- MrThermomanPreacher
I don't think the voice was credited in the episode. I doubt it was John Barrowman.
- 67.158.172.224
The very first time I saw this I thought it was John Barrowman! I can't find any evidence to prove or disprove it either, though.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:121925
I'm starting on an epic quest, to collect each and every Doctor Who book. Not just those but the Torchwood, Sarah Jane Adventures, Bernice Summerfields, and ANYthing else which even MIGHT take place in the Whoniverse.
My problem is there doesn't seem to be an easy way to get a huge checklist and tick off books one at a time. There are the New Adventures, Past Adventures, Missing Adventures, Novelisations, EDAs, etc... I was wondering if anyone here knew where I could find such a list, in somewhat chronological order in-universe would be best.
Thanks!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:121948
What's the more dominant term for the room with a console that moves up and down you see immediately after entering a TARDIS's door? Console room, or control room? Are both valid depending on the era or media?
The subsection on The Doctor's TARDIS and the subject's page itself goes back and forth on the term, which doesn't help.
- CzechOut
Wow. I almost don't have the temerity to investigate this one. What I can say with reasonable certainty without research is that the term emerged only under JNT. I'm almost positive that it was never called "console room" until Castrovalva, when Five tells Adric that the unravelled scarf should get him back to "the console room". (And then Bidmead has everyone say that phrase. I'm pretty positive the room was never mentioned more times than in Castrovalva.) Certainly, in Masque of Mandragora, it's quite firmly the "second control room". I guess it's time to fire up the Acrobat search bar.
My hunch at this point, though, is that unfortunately this probably means that later authors would have gone with console room, just because Castrovalva is one of those "seminal" episodes that a lot of 1990s writers would have seen and well remembered. I'll let ya know what the research turns up.
- CzechOut
Okay, I've completed my review of Target novelisations, and it can safely be said that in the Target and pre-Target days, at least, "console room" was almost never used. Only Eric Saward was completely stubborn about using the term; even Bidmead at least used both.
book writer control console notes Unearthly Terrance Dicks X Abominable X Androids of Tara X Armageddon Factor X The actual console is called the "control console", which obviously allows for room to be called "control room" or "console room" — but Dicks always choses the former. Creature from the Pit X Nimon X Traken X Exciting Adventure with Daleks David Whitaker X Pre-Target, emphatic use of "control room". First person narration from Ian: "the control room as the Doctor called it" Doomsday Weapon Malcolm Hulke X Marinus Philip Hinchcliffe X with intermittent capitals: sometimes Control Room, sometimes control room Mandragora Hinchcliffe X always lower case this time Warriors' Gate John Lydecker X Chase John Peel X very late adaptation Mutation of Time X very late adaptation Time and the Rani Pip and Jane Baker X Full Circle Andrew Smith X Mawdryn Peter Grimwade X Enlightenment Barbara Clegg X Tenth Planet Gerry Davis X Zarbi Bill Strutton X Another of the pre-Target novelisations using "control room" Castrovalva Christopher H. Bidmead X X Yep, he actually uses both, but he uses "console room" more often Visitation Eric Saward X seemingly unique instance of "console room"-only in Targets - CzechOut
Okay, I've just taken big random samples of most every other major line. Here's what I got:
book writer control console notes The Nightmare of Black Island Mike Tucker X Snowglobe 7 Mike Tucker X Dunno why Tucker goes for "control room" here, but "console room" in Black Island The Doctor Trap Simon Messingham X This is Messingham's preference from the EDAs, too — but there's also another "control room" in this book Revenge of the Judoon Terrance Dicks X The Art of Destruction Stephen Cole X Peacemaker James Swallow X The Slitheen Excursion Simon Guerrier X Night of the Humans David Llewellyn X Nuclear Time Oli Smith X The Witch Hunters Steve Lyons X The Face-Eater Simon Messingham X The Taint Michael Collier X X Revolution Man Paul Leonard X Dominion Nick Walters X Unnatural History Kate Orman, Jonathan Blum X Interference - Book One Lawrence Miles X Parallel 59 Natalie Dallaire, Stephen Cole X The City of the Dead Lloyd Rose X The Book of the Still Paul Ebbs X General pattern is that EDAs use "console room" to a much greater degree, but "control room" does still pop up from time to time The Sands of Time Justin Richards X The Well-Mannered War Gareth Roberts X X Quite equal usage by Roberts, almost as if he counted up the instances and divided by two. Dancing the Code Paul Leonard X The Sorcerer's Apprentice Christopher Bulis X Twilight of the Gods Bulis X Bulis is clearly in the Uncle Terry camp. Invasion of the Cat-People Gary Russell X Millennial Rites Craig Hinton X The Empire of Glass Andy Lane X Downtime Marc Platt X Yeah, the video doesn't have the TARDIS at all, but the book does, in the prologue. Platt oddly hyphenates, so it's console-room in the Plattverse. The Man in the Velvet Mask Daniel O'Mahony X General truth of MAs seems to be that Virgin had no set rules. Some authors used "control", some used "console". Those that used "console", however, typically had other named "control rooms" in their stories, so they were probably just trying to make things clearer for their readers.
Overall, it seems to me that the early trend in DW fiction is re-emerging. It used to be almost always TARDIS control room. Under Virgin, it was sort of up to the individual author and I think something close to a 50/50 split. Then when the BBC initially took over publication duties, it slid much more in favor of console room.
But most BBC Wales-related products are again going for control room.
I think we can also say, without any doubt, that both terms are "correct", and that there's a strong correlation between use of console room in stories where there's another "control room" that's important to the plot. 1990s and early 2000s fiction relied on megalomaniacal enemies and science fictional settings to a much greater extent than the current BBC Books output. These villains tended to have a control room of some kind. It's perhaps no surprise, then, that the EDAs tended to use "console room" for the TARDIS.
Since this is such a close call, I would tend to break the tie between these two terms in favour of what's been in use for the longer time. For almost 30 years, it was almost always called "control room" in print. And it's been mostly called "control room" during the BBC Wales era.
It seems to me that calling the article "TARDIS console room" is giving outsized importance to part one of Castrovalva.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:121963
I'm fairly certain no TV story says it, certainly not overtly, unless it's extrapolating from a postcode given somewhere, so does something in comics or novels place it there?
- CzechOut
It comes from Doctor Who (2009) #1 — that is, Silver Scream. Archie Maplin asks the Doctor where his accent comes from and he says, "I picked it up on the Powell Estate in Peckham". This, incidentally, makes a narrative truth of something cut out of the early Tennant scripts that Rose somehow influenced the Doctor's accent during the regenerative process — an idea of RTD's to explain why he wasn't going to allow Tennant to use his (IMHO: far, far superior) Scots accent.
- CzechOut
BTW, I looked in every NSA novel featuring Rose, and the word Peckham doesn't appear, so there's unlikely to be much more in the way of "Peckham" mentions, except for maybe in early DWBIT stuff. I doubt that though.
The thing I don't know about that Powell Estate article is where we're getting the exact address of the Tyler flat from. I fear that may be from a non-narrative source, but I dunno.
Anyway, Peckham has been changed to very carefully cite the actual source and to give context for the statement.
- Tybort
I have a feeling the address, or at least the postcode, is in Army of Ghosts. Not 100% on that though.
- CzechOut
What good would the postcode be to determine the actuall address, as given at Powell Estate?
- Tybort
Should probably have read the page first before saying something like that. Sorry.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:122047
While we can establish that Amy must already be a Ganger by the time she reaches the orphanage in Day of the Moon - because they find the nanorecorder laying on the ground, and because she had a vision of Madam Kovarian. Before The Impossible Astronaut, though? Not necessarily. First, the Silent in the bathroom had to find Amy to hypnotise her into telling the Doctor that she was pregnant. As they would have had access to Amy through Kovarian, this would be unnecessary if she were already a Ganger. Also, at this time the Doctor still had access to both Amy and the Tardis scanner, to verify her pregnancy, if needed, before they kidnapped her. (This Silent obviously wanted him to know for some reason, perhaps to ensure his presence at Demon's Run.) Also, the Silence are in complete control in America in 1969. It's implied that they are at the height of their power in that country and in that time, so why would they take Amy where their power is less consolidated and they haven't been detected? We can interpret what is shown in the episode to mean that the Silence have the ability to make a new Ganger of Amy when the previous one is destroyed, as she disappears from the orphanage and reappears in their control room, where they are trying to convince her she has been there for a long time. Their ability to create a Ganger of Amy back in Present-Day Leadworth, where we haven't established that there are tunnels and where she has family and friends around is theoretical. At the beginning of the second episode, Amy has been on the run for three months and is shown to be apart from Rory and River during this time. There was a much greater opportunity for them to have secured her at this time. The Doctor's word is the only thing we have to say that Amy was taken sometime before she came to America. We all know that, while very, very, very good, the Doctor is not infallible, and he wasn't actually there. ComicBookGoddess ☎ 04:13, February 12, 2013 (UTC)
- Vulkanus13
She was kidnapped between Space / Time and The Impossible Astronaut when Kovarian found out she was pregnant.
- ComicBookGoddess
Ok. What in-story proof is there of this timing, given what I wrote above?
ComicBookGoddess ☎ 15:03, February 12, 2013 (UTC)
- Vulkanus13
I'm not sure if there is any in-story proof, but it is clear that it takes place between these stories as the only reason Kovarian wanted Amy was so that she could convince River to kill the Doctor when she was older.
- 206.158.39.206
True, but as I stated above, we only KNOW she was kidnapped before the orphanage scenes, and the encounter at the White House suggests that she was not yet a Ganger at the time.
- Digifiend
Vulkanus13 wrote: She was kidnapped between Space / Time and The Impossible Astronaut when Kovarian found out she was pregnant.
- Imamadmad
This query would require speculation to answer and so probably should be asked at The Howling, the forum dedicated for speculation and the like on this wiki which can be reached by clicking here.
- ComicBookGoddess
In that case, the pages referenced here should be edited to reflect the ambiguity, right? We don't actually know from the narrative yet except from the Doctor's word, so we shouldn't be saying the kidnapping definitely happened before Amy went to America - especially since the Lodger indicates that at least one of the Silence projects is abandoned in our era.
- Imamadmad
Basically, we can't give an exact answer because that would be wrong. However, we can go by the Doctor's own words and say that according to him it must have happened some time before America. Anything more specific/different is purely speculation.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:122107
could someone please tell me the answer to this clue from dwm issue 457 PLEASE.
19 across - the name of za in early drafts of 100,000BC?
answer - *u*
how anyone is supposed to know or find the answer to this clue i have no idea.
- Shambala108
I wasn't able to find the answer, but I wonder if the question means to ask the name of the tribe? Does Gum fit at all?
- 165.228.133.90
no,the question is most definitely about the character za the leader of the tribe of gum.good thought though.
- CzechOut
Are you positive that it's not gum? It is, after all, his tribe, and the name "gum" is not otherwise explained by the narrative. If the "g" and the "m" are disallowed by other parts of the puzzle, fine. But if they're in positions where nothing else is connected, then "gum" is almost certainly the right answer.
EDIT: It's actually not his tribe, is it? "The Tribe of Gum" is never used in any published narrative surrounding this story. That was just a working title. I'm guessing the reason the title had to change was because the character's name changed from "Gum" to "Za".
- Shambala108
I skimmed through my copy of Doctor Who The Handbook: The First Doctor and looked at the original paperwork on the BBC's website for An Unearthly Child and found no other names for Za. If the clue really means what it says, it is really obscure.
- CzechOut
Any chance of getting a scan of the crossword so that we can see for ourselves that gum does not fit?
- Consoleroom42
i can't seem to get the scan on here for some reason
- Imamadmad
You can't copy paste directly onto wiki pages, however you can upload the image and then link it here.
- Consoleroom42
how do i do that
- Imamadmad
If you have the photo saved onto your computer, go and click the photo button on the navbar at the top of this page. Then click the "+image" button. Then, upload your photo and add copyright settings etc. Then link the file to this page her. I'm pretty sure the syntax for that is [[File:name of image.extention]], although I know somebody will correct me if I'm wrong with that. Then voila, the picture should show up here. It would probably be a good idea to scan through Help:Image_cheat_card before uploading though.
- Consoleroom42
i've uploaded the picture but i can't figure out to link it to this page
- SOTO
Here you go:
- Imamadmad
Now you just type [[File:image name.extension]] on this page, except replacing image name.extension with the image name and extension, in this case [[File:Crossword.jpg]], which will look like this:
Well, the image is here now, but it's good to know for the future.
- SOTO
Oh that's not fair!! No indication for those two letters! Still, you're pretty much finished...
That's really irritating.
- Consoleroom42
thanks smallerontheoutside
- Imamadmad
Seems SmallerOnTheOutside got there before me!
- SOTO
No probs. :-)
Now. Anyone know the answer? I don't. Do you want to just go with gum and leave it at that?
- Imamadmad
Well, no harm done if the answer is wrong, right? Those two letter don't lead to anything. Anyway, be sure to post the solutions when you get them next week or whenever the mag next comes out! I for one would be interested to know
- SOTO
Me too. I'm interested. Please don't close this discussion until we know the answer.
So... until the next issue...
Same time. Same channel. ;-)
- CzechOut
Thanks for that pic. The answer is totally gum.
- CzechOut
And can I just say, one day you're gonna regret doing the crosswords in your magazine. You might wanna think about copying the crossword, and writing on that sheet of paper.
- Consoleroom42
well actually i do photocopy it on to a sheet of paper and do it on that.
- Digifiend
Yeah, I could tell that straight away, because the scan is monochrome (easy to tell looking at the DVD cover shown). The page is full colour in the magazine.
- CzechOut
At the risk of belabouring the minor point, I dunno that you can "tell straight away". There's not much visual difference between a greyscale scan of a page directly from a colour magazine and a scan of a black-and-white copy — especially when the page in question bears handwriting in black ink.
Since the colour information wasn't important, a greyscale scan of the original would have been logical, because of the consequent reduction in filesize.
- CzechOut
DWM 458 is in release now. Just wanted to bump the thread so people remember to check the answers to the above crossword.
- Consoleroom42
got the magazine today.
the answer is gum.
- CzechOut
Thanks very much for confirming that.
- Consoleroom42
no problem.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:122117
It's been noted how it's virtually impossible for the Doctor to cross to some other universes now, such as Pete's World where Rose now lives with the Meta-Crisis Doctor. However, recent series seem to possibly show characters easily hopping from one version of reality to another. Case in point: In THE WEDDING OF RIVER SONG, River appears in Amy and Rory's garden, having just come from the Byzantium in THE TIME OF ANGELS/FLESH & STONE. The thing is though, the incident with the Byzantium now took place in a parallel timeline to the one this episode occurs in, so River must have crossed realities. The Doctor likely does this at the end of THE ANGELS TAKE MANHATTAN, when he goes back to visit young Amy when she waited outside all night for him in the universe that was being destroyed by the Time Field. What makes instances like these easier, when Pete's World is essentially a no-go area?
- CzechOut
There's no crossing of realities at the end of Wedding or Angels. You've misread those scenes quite entirely.
- SOTO
To elaborate on what Czech said, that scene in Wedding took place in the Doctor's Universe. The alternate timeline was already negated by then. She simply came from earlier in Amy's timeline.
As far as Angels, this was in the Doctor's Universe as well. You may have noticed that the exact same footage was used in The Eleventh Hour. In what seemed at the time to be a dream sequence, with the TARDIS noise only there because sleeping Amy heard it. Anyways, this was clearly the normal reality.
- 82.20.113.152
Well, the history of the universe in Series 5 clearly has differences from that of the universe of subsequent series (e.g. Amy has parents in one, and in the other she never has), so therefore it has to be a parallel/alternate reality. The incident with the Byzantium took place in the earlier reality, so River must have hopped from that to the post-Pandorica version. They're both distinct timelines.
- SOTO
Interesting thought, but no. Yes, the timeline was altered slightly after it was rebooted in Big Bang 2, but, in both "realities," Amy still ran away with the Doctor the night before her wedding and still had that same adventure with River. A few things changed, yes, but, for the most part, everything is exactly how it was.
- CaptKirk42
In some later episodes Rose has crossed-over from the "Petes World" into the Doctor's mainstream regular Universe. I forget how it was explained, I just enjoyed the episodes. I try not to get too much involved in the technicalities of the stories anymore.
- Witoki
82.20.113.152 wrote: Well, the history of the universe in Series 5 clearly has differences from that of the universe of subsequent series (e.g. Amy has parents in one, and in the other she never has), so therefore it has to be a parallel/alternate reality. The incident with the Byzantium took place in the earlier reality, so River must have hopped from that to the post-Pandorica version. They're both distinct timelines.
They're not though. Big Bang Two didn't create a new timeline, it simply rebooted the timeline. Amy's special Time Crack-powered memory was able to revive her family (who themselves were only missing as a result of the Time Cracks). If anything, the "second" universe is actually a corrected version of the original.
- Anoted
Witoki wrote: They're not though. Big Bang Two didn't create a new timeline, it simply rebooted the timeline. Amy's special Time Crack-powered memory was able to revive her family (who themselves were only missing as a result of the Time Cracks). If anything, the "second" universe is actually a corrected version of the original.
Right but in the "second" universe Dalek's never invaded. A lot never happened. So whether you consider it a second universe or a correct universe there is no universe that is complete. No universe which contains all the events we've seen. Which is a whole other headache...
- Witoki
In the first universe they never invaded either, hence Amy not knowing what Daleks were. The Time Cracks undid those events long before the Pandorica opened.
- Anoted
However you want to number the universe's it doesn't really matter. My only point was that it isn't like there's a universe with things missing (like Amy's parents) and a universe where everything missing has been restored. It's not quite that simple, because there are all these things that we've seen happen that never happened because of the cracks in time. However you count things the whole cracks in time/big bang storyline erased things. Things that we saw happen never happened. Since there was a new cast we don't know how this affected anyone other than the Doctor who remembers because it's part of his personal history. For all we know this means that the companions of this period don't remember this stuff happening.
Basically, it's complicated.
- ComicBookGoddess
The difference is actually pretty simple.
The Doctor's Universe, from year 0 to Utopia, was completely replaced by what the restoration field extrapolated modified by what Amy remembered as the Doctor's Universe when the Big Bang Two happened. There was only one set of space-time coordinates to be defined as the Doctor's Universe before the event, and a slightly different set of equivalent points afterward.
Pete's World is a full parallel. If you add the coordinate set of the universe of Pete's World to the same of the Universe of the Doctor, you have twice as many points as either. Every point in space-time (probably up to 11 dimensions) has either an equivalent or a replacement value. It's two different universes, not one.
Now, I think you're confused because the different things that could have been changed in the Big Bang Two each were decision points that can create a parallel. Thing is, that's the same of any choice, regardless of how minor. The fact that a different choice creates a parallel does not mean that the equivalent event no longer exists in the home reality.
Ok, I guess it got complicated there, too. ;)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:122284
In the Doctor Who/Star Trek: The Next Generation crossover comic Assimilation2, it is heavily inferred that the universes of the Doctor and Star Trek (and their whole histories, judging by the TOS crew's encounter with the Fourth Doctor and the Cybermen) have been merged together as part of the Cybermen's plot. But it's never explained exactly how this is accomplished. Does anyone have any theories? Also, at the end, the Doctor tells Captain Picard and co that with the Cybermen totally wiped out in the Trekverse, and with him and his companions about to depart, the two realities will separate and assume their correct forms, with the past changing so the Cyberman attack never occurs (though he adds that the Enterprise-D crew will remember it). Why does he say this?
- SOTO
I'm assuming the question's asking for our opinions? This falls under speculation. Please go to (the heavily underused) the Howling for this, where we have discussions based on speculation. To get there, simply click here.
- 82.20.113.152
What happened to the responses?
- Shambala108
Testing.
- SOTO
Working. You can delete these two responses.
- 82.20.113.152
This is a test post. Please ignore.
- Shambala108
Please don't delete anything, it is against policy. See Tardis:Vandalism policy#Discussion pages (which is scarier sounding than it really is) for an explanation of why we don't remove contributions to discussion pages. Thanks!
- 82.20.113.152
Er, I reposted this topic in the Howling section earlier today, and...now it's gone from there completely.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:122969
How does Peter Cushing's Doctor Who fit in the regeneraton saga? He "played the eccentric Dr. Who in two mid-1960s movies ('Dr. Who and the Daleks' and 'Daleks' Invasion Earth 2150 A.D.')" Both films occurred after and during the period when William Hartnell played the first Doctor and before the first appearance of Patrick Troughton.
- 74.98.188.244
He doesn't fit, he's human. The movies are not part of the TV show.
- SOTO
74 answered it correctly; he doesn't - the Dalek movies are not considered part of the DWU on this wiki.
Even ignoring the Tardis rules, the answer remains the same: nothing can possibly be assumed about regeneration in regards to the Dalek movies, as they do not take place in the same continuity as mainstream Who. As regeneration was never introduced in the movies, we cannot presume that it exists at all in the Dalek movie universe.
I hope that answers your question...
- Shambala108
Actually 74 was me, I didn't realize I wasn't signed in.
- SOTO
Oh.
- OttselSpy25
To give a possibly more specific answer to Regenious, some media have tried to fit the Cushing Doctor into continuity, but we still consider the movies out of what we call "valid sources".
- Introvertedactor
SmallerOnTheOutside wrote:
Even ignoring the Tardis rules, the answer remains the same: nothing can possibly be assumed about regeneration in regards to the Dalek movies, as they do not take place in the same continuity as mainstream Who. As regeneration was never introduced in the movies, we cannot presume that it exists at all in the Dalek movie universe.
Would that then validate the Rowan Atkinson portrayal of The Doctor? :P
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:123125
On the page Doctor Who Magazine/2012 it is asserted that Sharon Small voiced Barbara Wright in The Reverants, but the page on the audio does not say this and I can't find any sources that directly proves or disproves the statement. Can someone who still has the mp3 copy released to DWM subscribers please help figure this out?
- CzechOut
She probably doesn't, given that the issue's interview with Russell says that he was asked by the director on occasion to make Barbara sound more feminine. Plus, the way these two-handers work is that the companion plays whatever character they did on TV plus all of the "goodies". The guest actor then plays their main part, plus any incidental "baddies".
Having Small portray Barbara would almost certainly be confusing.
Anyway, Problem easily solved by just removing that line from Doctor Who Magazine/2012, which I've now done. Better to have reduced information than false information. Besides, that page is hardly the place for such info; best placed on The Revenants itself.
- Revanvolatrelundar
From memory it is only Russell that narrates the story. I do intend to listen to the story again this week, so I'll post with certainty later on.
- CzechOut
Do we have a certain answer yet on this one?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:123135
I'm thinking of creating a category for species that have met all Doctors (so far) and, so far, the only ones coming to mind are:
- Humans
- Daleks
- Time Lords (assuming Nine participated in the Time War and including River in this category)
Every incarnation except for Nine has met a Cyberman (whether Mondasian or Cybus. I couldn't find a story with Nine and a Cyberman, unless you want to count the arm from TV: Dalek.
Anyone know of an encounter between the Ninth Doctor and a Cyberman? Can you think of any other species which every incarnation has met?
- Imamadmad
No on screen encounters, apart from seeing a cyberman head in Van Statten's museum (in Dalek (TV story)), but that head was implied to be dead, so the cyberman couldn't exactly meet the 9th Doctor. I don't know about in other media though.
- SOTO
Right. Head. Don't know why I thought it was an arm...
I'll take a look at all Ninth Doctor media, then.
- SOTO
Actually, come to think of it, it would actually be impossible for media to show the Ninth Doctor and the Cyberman, as nearly all Ninth Doctor media features Rose, who clearly doesn't recognise them in Series 2.
- Tybort
Yes she does? I thought she recognised them from the aforementioned head in Dalek. Granted that almost certainly means she hasn't met a Cyberman properly before, but I'm sure she recognises them.
- SOTO
I kind of remember that too, but explain this, then:
- DOCTOR: It's happening again.
- ROSE: What do you mean?
- DOCTOR: I've seem them before.
- ROSE: What are they?
- DOCTOR: Cybermen.
Quickly skipping through the episode, it seems this is the first bit of dialogue between the Doctor and Rose about Cybermen. I'll re-watch the episode fully either today or tomorrow and get back to you. - Tybort
I'm probably misremembering, but I think Rose's line came before they were clearly seen, and the Doctor knew who they were because he saw something about cyber-conversion on a computer.
I don't see how that changes that the Ninth Doctor likely hadn't met Cybermen though.
- SOTO
Ah, yes, you are right:
- ROSE: The thing is, I've seen Cybermen before, haven't I? The head. Those handle shapes in Van Statten's museum.
- DOCTOR: Ah, there are Cybermen in our universe. They started on an ordinary world just like this, then swarmed across the galaxy. This lot are a parallel version, and they're starting from scratch right here on Earth.
So, clearly, Rose has never met the Cybermen apart from that head. Meaning there probably isn't any sort of meeting between Nine and a Cybermen in any media.
- Imamadmad
Well, there is a little thing called retcon which could introduce a meeting between 9 and the cybermen in spin-off media and just ignore that one line in the TV show, or just set it before Rose came. We don't know exactly when 8 regenerated into 9, so maybe they met sometime during the Time War? But based on TV alone, it does seem that they haven't met before, but someone with a greater knowledge of the novels etc. should go check.
- OttselSpy25
Keep in mind that there has been media with 9 alone
- CzechOut
Since we don't know any significant details about the eighth regeneration, we have no idea what happens from that point until he meets Rose. However, he has not, as is largely (but wrongly) speculated, "just" regenerated in Rose. Quite clearly, he's had time to go to the JFK assassination and several other historical points of interest before meeting Rose Tyler. Clive's beem tracking that particular incarnation for a while, and amassed quite a number of sightings.
So there's every reason to believe he could have met the Cybermen pre-Rose Tyler.
But do we have any actual stories detailing such an encounter? No. We just don't have that many stories at all about Nine.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
I've always explained the various adventures i.e. JFK assassination as being between the Doctor leaving and coming back and mentioning that it travels in time.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
BTW, I thought of another species that's met all the Doctors. Every Doctor has met a TARDIS. :)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:123204
River Song sacrificed all her regenerations to restore the Doctor in "Let's Kill Hitler." Did this give him 10 more regenerations?
- DeathAriesS130WD
Interesting Question. However, The Doctor wouldn't get 10 more regenerations. 1: River regenerated only twice, so if anything the Doctor would get 11 more Regenerations. And 2: River gave the Doctor all her Regeneration energy to cure him from the poison of the Judist tree. She used up the remaining 11 lifetimes to cure the Doctor. And finally 3: A Time Lords Regeration is restricted only by the Eye of Harmony, an artificial black hole created by the Time Lords. When they all died in the Time War, the Doctor escaped with it in the heart of the TARDIS. Now that he controls it, he can have infinite Regenerations. However, the Judist tree disabled his regenerative ability which is why he needed River's energy. I know this seems long-winded, but it's the facts.
- 74.106.61.93
I can't see it?
- CzechOut
The 13 thing is easily countered with other quotes which suggest 13 ain't the limit. It's at best a theory of how many regens a "proper" Time Lord has.
And of course, River isn't a "proper" Time Lord. We don't know what she is, and it's a bit hard to understand how she's really Time Lord at all. She's humanplus, not so much half Time Lord. So whatever number of regens she had is unlikely to be the number the Doctor has.
- DeathAriesS130WD
Really? I've gathered all of the information on the data core itself. Feel free to check it out.
- CzechOut
Heh, I probably wrote — or at least edited — most of it. But I'm saying that prior to The Deadly Assassin, there was no suggestion of any kind of regeneration limit. Yes, we have firm quotes from the Fourth Doctor, the Eighth Doctor and the Roberts Master – and several other people. But we also have things that run counter to that: Romana shopping casually for a new body like it's no big deal to regenerate, the Second Doctor saying that he can "live forever, barring accident", the fact that the Master clearly got "new" regenerations, the prove-he's-not-serious Eleventh Doctor in Death of the Doctor.
I mean one thing you've got to consider is that the Doctor lies. So where's he lying? The Deadly Asssasin? The TVM? Death of the Doctor? We just don't have completely irrefutable evidence, and it might not even come until the thirteenth regeneration.
But you can bet there will be a thirteenth regeneration — as long as the BBC want to keep on making new stories.
- SOTO
I've always thought of it in the sense that River is pretty much just as "Time Lord" as the rest - except, instead of Gallifreyan, she's human. She went through the same evolution as them, except instantly as a result of being conceived in the Vortex. End result = human Time Lord (not "impossible," apparently, as Ten claimed), as opposed to Gallifreyan Time Lord. Still, it's a really blurry line between Gallifreyan and Time Lord, and it's really hard to properly define them.
- CzechOut
Ugh, don't tell me: you're one of these "Time Lord isn't a species" people? Lemme tell you: our articles are wrong on that point. The vast, vast, vast majority of material written about Time Lords very clearly and directly indicate that Time Lords are a species. River Song had two human parents. She is not a Time Lord.
- SOTO
:-D No, I am not "one of those people." I know that Time Lord's a species, but they evolved into that species. They started off as Gallifreyans and evolved, through prolonged exposure to the Time Vortex. That's even explained in-universe - either A Good Man or Gridlock. So River evolved in the same way, to a slightly different variation of the main-stream Time Lord species.
- Digifiend
And anyway, weren't there plans, scuppered by the cancellation, to have Ace go to Gallifrey to train to become a Time Lady? Apparently they can convert an ordinary person into a Time Lord, probably by exposure to the Time Vortex, which River received in the womb! Artificial evolution, I suppose.
- CzechOut
The operative words being, "scuppered by the cancellation". The version of that story that made it to audio is considerably more vague on that point — and, anyway, it's been officially ruled an "alternate universe" by Big Finish.
- DeathAriesS130WD
First off, River is part human and part time lord (A good Man goes to War). And the doctor didn't say that wasn't possible, a human time lord metacrisis wasn't possible. And Donna couldn't withstand the Time Lord mind because her brain wasn't adapted to the Time Lord knowledge and it short circuited her brain. However: River has had the Time lord brain since birth, since she was conceived within the time vortex. And even though her parents are human, she is half human, half timelord. If you put the DNA of a Blue jay into a chicken's egg, you'd get some kind of hybrid. Just because the parents are chickens doesn't mean the hybrid's a chicken. Weird metaphor, I know. But the point gets through. River is human and Time Lord. But I still don't think the original question was answered. Instead of disputing River's species, how many regenerations does the Doctor have now that River provided the Doctor her remaining 11 regerations?
- CzechOut
We don't know. There is no direct narrative evidence to answer your question. A part of the reason we don't know is because it's unclear how much of a Time Lord River is. Without knowing that, it's impossible to even begin to speculate how many lives she may have passed on to Eleven.
The other part of the reason is that we don't know how serious any future production team will take the 13-life limit established in The Deadly Assassin. Given that the Fourteenth Doctor probably won't arrive much before 2020, it will have been 30 years since the last major onscreen mention of that limitation in the 1996 telemovie. By that point it's just as possible that the production team will simply not mention the 13-limit as they will explain how they got around it.
Certainly, Let's Kill Hitler provides an obvious reason why there could be a 13th regeneration and consequent 14th body — so obvious that all the newly-regenerated Fourteen has to say is "River" for the explanation to be complete.
- ComicBookGoddess
Oh, I don't know. The specific wording in the episode was "used...in one go". Used, not transferred, not gave. That definitely suggests the Doctor doesn't get to keep them.
As for River's species, consider: Amy had the crack in space-time, the universe running through her head as a child. She's shown the ability to retain paradoxical knowledge that even most human time-travellers would not, and was intuitive enough to create a sonic probe - something so far beyond human tech that this Doctor has said at least twice it would instantly betray his position on Earth. Also, River's conception in the Vortex and the experimentation changed her significantly genetically. Remember that we learned from Rose (in both The Unquiet Dead and Journey's End) that the Doctor specifically decides against romantic involvement based on species differences. So, after he saw the genetic data and found out Melody was River - even before the Doctor had seen her regenerate - he IMMEDIATELY changed his attitude about their prior kiss and the prospect of their future romantic involvement. (He even preened!)
So, if the Doctor thinks she's close enough to Time Lord, I do as well. ;)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:123446
It seemed to me that when the new series began, there was a discussion of an extensive wardrobe within the TARDIS so that they could change into period costumes when necessary, but it soon became the norm that they wore whatever clothing they had on wherever they went. Anyone have an explanation of why?
- Digifiend
They've never enforced a period clothing rule. In fact, in The Unquiet Dead, while Rose wore a period outfit when they went to the 19th century, the Doctor still wore his anachronistic leather jacket! And that was the THIRD episode of the revival, and the first historical.
- Roguegenius1955
It just appears odd that in The Vampires of Venice Rory and Amy were dressed in period garb when they appeared before the court but reverted to their modern dress afterward. In Love's Labour's Won, Martha Jones garb causes quite a stir among the locals, while it often appears that very little notice is given to clothing.
- CzechOut
Different eras of the programme handle the issue differently. Welcome to Doctor Who.
During the Hartnell era, it was generally observed that everyone, including the Doctor, would make some sort of effort to blend in to local clothing customs. You'll find exceptions of course, but generally people played dress-up.
This often occurred in the Troughton era too, with Two frequently trying to blend in, particularly during season 4 and to some extent in 5.
Doctors after that often didn't actually fit the customs of modern day Earth, anyway, so there was a sense in which their standard dress was somewhat timeless.
I think it's mainly down to what a particular writer wants to stress. It's a good gag — once — to have modern day dress remarked upon by people from the past, but there's probably not much enthusiasm thereafter. That's why you'll occasionally hear about a stranger's "peculiar dress", but not always, even from the same writer. Why does RTD insist in the script for Rose that Nine be seen in historical dress in the photos in Clive's shed, but then allow Gatiss' apparently contradictory line at the top of The Unquiet Dead? Why does RTD have Ten crave Queen Vic's indulgence of "the naked child" but not excuse his own unkempt appearance?
A reason it might not be so prominent nowadays is the effect of the psychic paper. Think about The Idiot's Lantern where Ten flashes it to a policeman and the cop mistakes him for royalty. I think the paper makes the person "see what they want to see" and therefore imagine a different appearance for the Doctor's clothes.
Course that doesn't apply to those who haven't seen the psychic paper, and it's speculation. But I do think we're meant to believe that the psychic paper does more than just present credentials but also an "acceptable aura" around the holder.
At the very lease, we can say without speculation that it removes the need for disguises since it's more credible than a disguise.
- SirBanstead
So the psychic paper also acts as a perception filter? Clothing isn't the only problem that would stir a crowd though. The doctor could usually take charge with little opposition. (with a few exceptions)
Also, the clothes seem unimportant due to the current situation, like in tooth and claw. There was a werewolf running through the house, I doubt they cared about the Doctor and Roses clothes.
In the episodes set in the future, all the fashion is a bit more neutral and accepting, but this is the opposite in historical episodes, as clothes was just as much a social uniform, than cloth round the body. I think the lack of questioning is because of the unsaid authority and dominance the Doctor brings to situations.
- SOTO
Well, the Doctor is clearly used to being in a position of authority - look at his expression when Lady Christina takes over in TV: Planet of the Dead!
- ComicBookGoddess
In The Shakespeare Code, he tells Martha something like, "Walk about like you own the place. It's what I do."
If I can stray to speculate for a moment, I do like the mild perception filter idea, but the Doctor would have put it in the sonic. ;)
- Stormystormageddon
I agree with comicbookgoddess that the Doctor would have to sonic them in order for the perception filter to work. But I wonder why people don't pay much notice to the different clothes.
- ComicBookGoddess
Actually, I think it's more likely that it's the Doctor himself being mildly hypnotic. ;)
- CaptKirk42
Obviously it is a writing/costume thing, but for the sake of story lines perhaps there is some sort of perception field that the TARDIS emits sort of like how people who travel in the TARDIS even though they speak and hear English to the locals they are speaking the local tongue.
Basically though not explaining it saves time in having to invent something.
As previously mentioned by someone the earlier doctors 1, 2 and sometimes 3 would have their companions play dress-up even Doctor 4 did that later doctors it is usually just on rare occasions.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:123674
Hello i was curious is there a way to downoad this entire wikia for offline purposes?
- OttselSpy25
Ummm.... I imagine not... But uh... If you can I'd love to hear it...
You can find out about the database download in general at Wikia Community's Help page on the subject.
On this wiki to download the database you need to go to Special:Statistics the information on Wikia's Community page explains everything that's on there concerning a database dump.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:123886
The Seventh Doctor page mentions little about the NAs, so I'm wondering from those that know more, considering the page mentions that in his last New Adventure novel, he leaves for the Master on Skaro, are there any gaps in that continuity where solo travels and adventures audio-exclusive companions could fit like with the Eighth Doctor's "three year" thing?
- CzechOut
Yeah, good luck with this one. People always talk about the multiple timelines of the Eighth Doctor, but really, the Seventh Doctor is just as bad — or worse. The reason is really Ace. Because her timeline is so confused, so, too, is the Seventh Doctor.
I don't think that it's possible to really nail down the audio stuff — especially given the fact that Big Finish have directly said that anything with Raine Creevey is an an alternate reality to their own output. (Yeah, thanks for that, Briggs.) This compromises Ace even more and therefore, the Seventh Doctor.
Additionally the early, pre-Ace solo DWM stuff is a bit crazy to figure out, as is the solo IHP stuff. There's no particular reason to put the IHP stuff in publication order, as there's not much of a narrative imperative to do so. The Death's Head story has to come after the Death's Head meeting in DWM, of course, but that still says nothing about the placement of that story relative to all the other IHP stories
The truth is, there are tons of gaps where you can fit audio solo adventures. Too many. Way too many. You can pick from any gap between two solo comic stories, multiple points within individual NA novels where the Doctor is separated from others, or the vast, undefined space pre-TVM. The audios tend to, but do not always, feature TARDIS sounds which are taken from the TVM. So most of the solo audios seem to be in that later gap. Where the solo adventures are relative to each other, though, is usually pure guesswork.
- 182.239.164.13
Actually they've said Raine is designed to fit with their own output. It was when Love and War was released that they said that Benny is a different timeline.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:124077
Where did these terms come from? Are they narrative, extra-narrative, or speculation?
- The articles for Demons Run, the Battle of Demons Run, and The Church mention either the Anglican Regiment or the Anglican Marines.
- I don't recall this term being used in the main television narratives, A Good Man Goes to War and The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, or any of the associated TV media.
- I do not have experience with any non-tv narrative or non-narrative source for this term. That's why I'd like some input.
- The only reference I remember is the Fat Man saying they're Anglican. While this is definitive that Anglicans are part of the force, it's not clear enough that this is also the name of the regiment or a type of marine.
- ComicBookGoddess
As no one has come forward with an in universe reference for this as a name, I will be reworking these mentions as speculation... Speak now or hold thy piece until they say it for real! :)
- SOTO
The Fat Man said "Anglican Marines," incidentally:
- "Thin/Fat Gay Married Anglican Marines"
- ComicBookGoddess
Nope. The Fat One says either "We're the fat, thin, gay, Anglican, marines," or "We're the fat, thin, gay, Anglican Marines." It's not clear which. As such, we cannot conclusively say that the name of the military group is "the Anglican Marines".
- CzechOut
Huh? "Anglican, marines" isn't English, so it's not an option. Now, sure, you may have a case for whether marines should be capitalised, but they are "Anglican marines" or "Anglican Marines" — one of the two.
- ComicBookGoddess
Sorry - what I was attempting to convey is that the pause between Anglican and marines in the cadence of his speech is the same as the other pauses. I assumed that meant that the Fat One meant to:
- Describe himself and the Thin One as Anglicans who are marines.
- Describe the force as marines who belong to the Church, which is Anglican.
I was quite confused to find that some interpret it:
- Declare the entire force to have proper name "Anglican Marines".
This line is the first since the introduction of the military Church where they defined the military Church as Anglican, and I think that was the point, not that the specific force there was Anglican. In any case, sure looks like you either need to split a hair or speculate to call this a proper term.
- CzechOut
Yeah, I will certainly grant that this admits of several interpretations. The question really is whether we're supposed to think there are commas even present or if this actor just chose to Shatner it up. Or maybe the script has it bound all together with hyphens — the "thin-fat-gay-married-Anglican marines" — and the actor simply treated the hyphens as commas.
But it doesn't matter. The only thing that a comma does is to tell you that the adjectives are coordinate — that each adjective can be equally applied to the noun. If there were no commas, then each adjective "builds upon" the other to create a combined picture. (And frankly that's my reading of the situation. I think the guy saw he and his partner as all those things combined. )
Either way, though, an "Anglican marine" is what he is.
The real question is what to do about "marine". Is it capitalised or not? If it's not, then the assumption is that the description is particular to him. In other words, the marines could be interdenominational, and he is therefore an "Anglican marine". But if everyone else is also Anglican, we'd expect that they'd be marines for the Anglican church, and thus Anglican Marines.
I notice you seem to have focussed all your energies on A Good Man Goes to War. Have you scoured all three episodes in which they're featured? There may be something you're overlooking in The Time of Angels.
- ComicBookGoddess
Didnt mention it cause I know the episodes pretty well (I actually watched Time of Angels three times yesterday). Didn't see or hear Anglican at any point. If the adjectives apply equally, then they're also the Gay Marines, the Fat Marines, and the Thin Marines. :) Everybody else in the relevant episodes says The Church.
I was more worried if I missed something in other media or not.
- ComicBookGoddess
I don't see, and haven't found in narrative, or even in limited reading of out-of-narrative information, any information confirming that this is a proper name.
As it's been 4 days, and Czechout agrees this is open to interpretation without further information (which I take to mean that it is a speculative name), I'll proceed to remove specific references to "Anglican Marines" or "Anglican Regiment" as the proper name of a group. Where appropriate, I'll replace the information that marines who are Anglican are part of the Church presence.
Czech, if I'm overstepping or if later disagreement or confirmation shows up, the edits could be reverted easily enough.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:124223
Does anyone have a list of Big Finish stories that have Doctor Who Magazine previews?
- CzechOut
I don't know the answer to this question, and I'm not sure that anyone has ever created a definitive list. I've looked around a bit, but I really can't find anything. I think it's the kind of trivial detail that we are supposed to create for ourselves.
When I build the SMW templates for DWM, I'll be sure to include a variable of [[hasBFpreview::]] so that we can easily create such a list. But until then, I dunno what to tell ya.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
Thanks. I can wait till then. :)
- Tangerineduel
There's a few imperfect ways to find the information you're looking for at the moment. None of them are completely helpful if you want a list, but if you're desperate:
Many of the comic previews have been uploaded and hopefully tagged with the {{DWM illustration}} tag. This doesn't help entirely because there are other illustrations that this covers. But they all end up in the Category:DWM illustrations category.
Imperfect option number 2. Put into Google: site:http://tardis.wikia.com "illustrated preview"
This will bring up a list of articles that contain this wording sourced only from this wiki. I added (or re-uploaded/changed file format and added) most of the comic previews and used that wording. From that list of you'll find that most of Google's edit summaries list the DWM issue. Again not entirely perfect because I probably worded some another or someone else had uploaded some and worded it differently.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
Thanks! That should help a lot. :)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:124276
Can those of you who get Doctor Who Magazine before the rest of us please keep a very close eye on Hunters of the Burning Stone? We need to be very cautious about declaring the Tribe of Gum to be the "same one from An Unearthly Child" — because the word "Gum" does not appear in either the serial or the novelisation. As far as we know, right now, our article at Tribe of Gum is actually wrong, and it should not be assumed, on the sole basis of the picture at right, that this story retroactively gives the name "Tribe of Gum" to the tribe depicted in the serial.
- SOTO
While I haven't read the story, (don't get mad at me!!) I want to highlight this sentence in the article:
- When Ian says he doesn't know them, they tell him that they remembered his trick in which the skulls came to life in the flame and that they took it for themselves.
Unless the exact same thing happened with another tribe, I think it's safe to assume that the Tribe of Gum and the tribe from AUC are one and the same. I'd still wait until someone confirms the validity of the sentence, though.
- SOTO
Also note how, in the above picture, they have the same names as the original tribe.
- CzechOut
So? Remember, T:SPOIL DEF enjoins us to consider the entire story. Obviously this makes it complicated to deal with comic stories, which are released in tiny increments over months. But what we decided to do with Assimilation² was to try very hard not to go beyond what had actually been printed in any particular instalment — in much the same way that we wouldn't try to predict the events of The Wedding of River Song having only seen The Impossible Astronaut.
The truth is that this frame is just a cliffhanger. It's the thing that's supposed to make you come back to read the story next month. The chances of it actually turning out to be the same tribe depicted in the televised serial are at least dubious, if not actually slim.
We need to refrain from incorporating this material in our articles until we actually know how the story turns out.
- SOTO
Okay, sounds logical. Can I at least add in a line at the page that says that they claimed to be part of the tribe?
- CzechOut
No. The issue is that we have no reason to call the tribe in AUC "the Tribe of Gum". My guess is that when this story wraps up, we'll use "Tribe of Gum" solely to refer to whoever these people are in this comic story.
- SOTO
It can go either way, really. If they're distinct, we separate Tribe of Gum and Tribe (An Unearthly Child). If they're the same, we finally have a proper name for the tribe in AUC.
When does the next DWM come out?
- CzechOut
Exactly. And because it can go either way, we leave it alone until we know.
- OttselSpy25
I have the comic, and I think that there's enogh evidence to show at least that the group was claiming to be the one from An Unearthly Child. They references events from the episode, as well as of coarse the fact that they had the same name. The comic also suggests that the group is trying to refind Ian and Barabara after the events of the episode.
- CzechOut
No, see, that's the rub. The group in AUC never call themselves the Tribe of Gum. So the fact that the Hunters group call themselves the "Tribe of Gum" throws up all kinds of red flags.
Every serious student of early DW history knows that the Tribe of Gum is only a working title and has nothing to do with any bit of the narrative. Had I discovered our article earlier, or when I had more time to correct it, it would have simply been changed, rather than flagged with {{rename}}, because it is absolutely wrong, given the evidence from AUC.
It is very suspicious that we have a narrative, 50 years after the fact, using a discarded working title. I would almost be willing to bet money that things are not what they seem. Remember that this story in DWM is not taking place on Earth. At this point, it could just as easily be that these people on this planet have a telescope trained on Earth and the images from 100,000 BC are just reaching them. They could have knowledge of Barbara and Ian because they've seen them from a distance. They could be robots. They could me victims of mind transference. They could be the Tribe of Gum because there's a character named Gum who will be introduced in later instalments who is unique to this story, and does not appear in AUC. There are tons of possibilities.
We just have to wait to see what happens.
- OttselSpy25
And I'll nearly bet money that they are that tribe from An Unearthly Child. The "it was all fake"/"it was all an illusion" twist is one that is pulled quite too often in these recent stories (1989 to now) and frankly the current DWM is far too clever to pull that again.
Besides that point, all I'm saying is that this group is pretending to be the tribe from "An Unearthly Child". While we cannot say yet wether or not it's definitively them, we cannot deny that they claimed to be them.
- OttselSpy25
Furthermore, there are multiple charactors on this world that are neither from the time the story is set or from that planet, including multiple charactors from the 1980s. It's entirely possible that the Tribe was also somehow moved.
- CzechOut
OttselSpy25 wrote: Besides that point, all I'm saying is that this group is pretending to be the tribe from "An Unearthly Child". While we cannot say yet wether or not it's definitively them, we cannot deny that they claimed to be them.
Okay, but when you link to Za and the others, you are asserting through wikitext that they are the same. If you believe that they are not the same people exactly — and that's what I take away from the words pretending to be — then you cannot reasonably link.
At this point, we have one very surprising cliffhanger panel to go by.
The equivalent situation in DWM history is the final panel of The Final Chapter/first panel of Wormwood, where the Eighth Doctor appears to regenerate into someone looking like Nick Briggs.
If we were covering that story month-to-month, in the same way that we're doing Hunters, your logic would have us crete an article for Ninth Doctor that bore the image of Nick Briggs. And you'd be very, very wrong.
It is a basic rule of consuming Doctor Who fiction that you never, ever, under any circumstances believe the cliffhanger. There's zero reason why we should start now.
- CzechOut
The other point that you don't seem to be grasping is that the "Tribe of Gum" doesn't exist. Our article is factually incorrect, based solely off of AUC. If these people in Hunters say that they are the Tribe of Gum, that means nothing about AUC, because there is no such tribe in that story. Hunters is making a meta-fictional reference that trades upon DW fans' knowledge of the working title of AUC — not upon any fact that is established in AUC.
- This post has been removed.
- This post has been removed.
- Rappy
reply
- OttselSpy25
There... That did something... I seem to have sucessfully deleted my broken post... Hmm...
- OttselSpy25
Anyways,
- OttselSpy25
What you don't seem to grasp is that it doesn't really matter what they call themselves.
The evidence isn't just "They call themselves the Tribe of Gum". They very precisely quote the events of An Unearthly Child, citing thing Ian did to their tribe. I doubt you realize this, as you haven't read the comic. Furthermore, not only do they have the same names as the members of the tribe in Child, they also have the exact same appearances. Look at ol' beardy at the top there, exactly like the original Hug or whatever his name was. I doesn't really member what they called themselves, they could've just as well went up to the Doctor and said "we represent the lolly-pop-guild" and it wouldn't have made any difference. There's still enough evidence to show that they are trying to be the Tribe.
Granted, I completely support your theory of "we can't difinativley say that this is them." Your point of "Robots and clones all exist in the DWU" is very strong and sound; as well as correct.
It is not correct, however, to say "we can not acknowledge that they are in anyway connected." Especially not in an out-of-universe context. Want to say that they may not be the tribe and we should wait before we state that it's difinativly them? Fine. Want to wipe all info suggesting that it may be them? Not fine. There is a strong difference.
Furthermore, on an out-of-universe page, like Hunters of the Burning Stone, it's perfectly fine to say that the two are meant to be the same. "The Tribe of Gum" is a well known nickname for the tribe outside of the show, so it's clear that they were defiantly meant to be the tribe in some fashion.
Thus, as I suggested above, there is no need to hold back this information. (Also note that there are these all-powerful floating gold-alien things that make the idea of moving the tribe entirely feesable. It makes more sense in the story than you would think.)
- CzechOut
Nah, Rappy did for you.
- TARDIStraveler
Just throwing it out there - I did some incredibly light Googling and found that one of the rough drafts for AUC and a Target novelization of the story are titled "The Tribe of Gum." Not that rough drafts are considered canonical information - but it does go to support the theory. Sorry, just playing devil's advocate.
- OttselSpy25
CzechOut wrote: Nah, Rappy did for you.
That makes more sense, although i was trying to delete it when it got fixed...
Thanks Rappy! :)
- OttselSpy25
TARDIStraveler wrote: Just throwing it out there - I did some incredibly light Googling and found that one of the rough drafts for AUC and a Target novelization of the story are titled "The Tribe of Gum." Not that rough drafts are considered canonical information - but it does go to support the theory. Sorry, just playing devil's advocate.
How am I the devil? /:(
- SOTO
TARDIStraveler wrote: Just throwing it out there - I did some incredibly light Googling and found that one of the rough drafts for AUC and a Target novelization of the story are titled "The Tribe of Gum." Not that rough drafts are considered canonical information - but it does go to support the theory. Sorry, just playing devil's advocate.
Yeah... I think you'll find.... Oh, we surprisingly haven't mentioned in in this thread. Weird.
- OttselSpy25
TARDIStraveler wrote: Just throwing it out there - I did some incredibly light Googling and found that one of the rough drafts for AUC and a Target novelization of the story are titled "The Tribe of Gum." Not that rough drafts are considered canonical information - but it does go to support the theory. Sorry, just playing devil's advocate.
I think it's clear that "The Tribe of Gum" is a fine out-of-universe name, thus proving my point above.
- CzechOut
Yeah, there's been a train of emails to get this problem fixed. Unfortunately, the text of the message that caused the trouble could not be saved. :(
- OttselSpy25
CzechOut wrote: Yeah, there's been a train of emails to get this problem fixed. Unfortunately, the text of the message that caused the trouble could not be saved. :(
Eh, it's not like it was that important.
- OttselSpy25
OttselSpy25 wrote: What you don't seem to grasp is that it doesn't really matter what they call themselves.
The evidence isn't just "They call themselves the Tribe of Gum". They very precisely quote the events of An Unearthly Child, citing thing Ian did to their tribe. I doubt you realize this, as you haven't read the comic. Furthermore, not only do they have the same names as the members of the tribe in Child, they also have the exact same appearances. Look at ol' beardy at the top there, exactly like the original Hug or whatever his name was. I doesn't really member what they called themselves, they could've just as well went up to the Doctor and said "we represent the lolly-pop-guild" and it wouldn't have made any difference. There's still enough evidence to show that they are trying to be the Tribe.
Granted, I completely support your theory of "we can't difinativley say that this is them." Your point of "Robots and clones all exist in the DWU" is very strong and sound; as well as correct.
It is not correct, however, to say "we can not acknowledge that they are in anyway connected." Especially not in an out-of-universe context. Want to say that they may not be the tribe and we should wait before we state that it's difinativly them? Fine. Want to wipe all info suggesting that it may be them? Not fine. There is a strong difference.
Furthermore, on an out-of-universe page, like Hunters of the Burning Stone, it's perfectly fine to say that the two are meant to be the same. "The Tribe of Gum" is a well known nickname for the tribe outside of the show, so it's clear that they were defiantly meant to be the tribe in some fashion.
Thus, as I suggested above, there is no need to hold back this information. (Also note that there are these all-powerful floating gold-alien things that make the idea of moving the tribe entirely feesable. It makes more sense in the story than you would think.)
Are there any objections to my statements? - Rappy
OttselSpy25 wrote:
CzechOut wrote: Nah, Rappy did for you.
That makes more sense, although i was trying to delete it when it got fixed...
Thanks Rappy! :)
No problem. Sorry I couldn't save the post. *cries*
- OttselSpy25
Rappy 4187 wrote:
OttselSpy25 wrote:
CzechOut wrote: Nah, Rappy did for you.
That makes more sense, although i was trying to delete it when it got fixed...
Thanks Rappy! :)
No problem. Sorry I couldn't save the post. *cries*
Nothin' cooler than a South Park themed avatar...
- CzechOut
Okay, back on to the subject under discussion. Let's try a different tack. What is the name of the tribe in An Unearthly Child, as broadcast and novelised?
- OttselSpy25
In the novel it looks like it always either "the Tribe" or "the tribe". I presume we're talking renaming the page, because this is (as I noted above) irrelevant to the Hunters story.
- CzechOut
OttselSpy25 wrote: In the novel it looks like it always either "the Tribe" or "the tribe".
Right. And, more importantly, this is also the case throughout the actual serial called An Unearthly Child.
I presume we're talking renaming the page, because this is (as I noted above) irrelevant to the Hunters story.
So the page title is irrelevant to links that are made on another page? That's technically, factually incorrect. When you make a link, you use, either directly or through a redirect, the name of the page. If the name of a page is in doubt — and it really, legitimately is here — then you can't link to the page because you're then confirming the bad page title.
The tribe in AUC is not the Tribe of Gum, so therefore when these guys in Hunters say they're from the Tribe of Gum, they're naming a completely new tribe about which we currently don't have a page.
The way forward here is to move the current contents of Tribe of Gum to just the Tribe, and then start Tribe of Gum such that it contains info only from Hunters. If at some point it all needs to be merged, we can do that. But you and I both know that won't happen. Ultimately there's going to be some story reason why these guys are not the same guys from AUC.
- OttselSpy25
CzechOut wrote: The way forward here is to move the current contents of Tribe of Gum to just the Tribe, and then start Tribe of Gum such that it contains info only from Hunters. If at some point it all needs to be merged, we can do that. But you and I both know that won't happen. Ultimately there's going to be some story reason why these guys are not the same guys from AUC.
You think that, but I know that these guys will be the tribe. We're talking about a bunch of floating gold aliens that had also moved other people across time and space, so there's no reason that it wouldn't be them. I know that I'm not saying that we should declare it to be them yet, but overtime you bring up the "It wont be them" argument I'll tell you why you're wrong.
Furthermore, from an out-of-universe pov it was clearly meant to be them so it's fine to state on an out-of-universe page clearly that, that it was meant to be them. See above for more of my arguments.
- CzechOut
No I don't think that. I know that in AUC and its novelisation there is nothing called the Tribe of Gum. Our page is currently wrong because it gives the source of AUC for a thing called "Tribe of Gum".
You've put information at Hunters under the continuity section and that's wrong. Continuity is about the in-universe relationship between two or more stories. At the present time, as of the cliffhanger in Hunters, the comic story is establishing a thing called "Tribe of Gum" which has never been mentioned before, in any story.
It is not continuity — again, it is meta-textual reference, which trades upon fan knowledge that the working title of AUC was The Tribe of Gum — but one that was ultimately rejected, according to The First Doctor Handbook because there was no "Tribe of Gum" in the finished story.
- CzechOut
Put another way, there is no valid source which establishes the name of the AUC tribe as the "Tribe of Gum", so even if the Hunters group calls themselves the "Tribe of Gum" that means they are not the group from AUC.
- OttselSpy25
Look, that's fair, I'm not debating hte name. Once again, the continuity linking this tribe to the original tribe in Child goes far beyond just the name.
- CzechOut
It's not likely that DWM would have just had in their crossword the factoid that Za was named Gum in early versions of AUC and then turn around and get that fact wrong in the comic strip that is running in the same issue! What the crossword clue tells us that, effectively, the tribe is the "Tribe of Za", not the "Tribe of Gum".
- CzechOut
To prevent an endless edit war, the Hunters article is now on lockdown. Article will reopen to general editing on 5 April, the day after the next issue of DWM is due to surface.
- OttselSpy25
Okay, fine. Here, I do understand your strife on the name, so may I suggest we add this continuity point?
- The members of the Tribe of Gum share the names and identical appearances of the members of the Tribe shown in the original Doctor Who story TV: An Unearthly Child. Furthermore, the group quotes the events of the story. However the tribe in the show had never been known as "the Tribe of Gum" up to this point. It is currently unknown if it is actually them.
There, no agnowlegement of the name connecting them. Why is this an issue? Why can't we have this bit? Even if it's not them, the continuity of them all having the same name is present. Frankly, I could care less about wheather or not the name matches; there is so many other continuity bits that connect this tribe to the one in An Unearthly Child.
- OttselSpy25
Note how my linking is exactly as you suggested it above, with a page on the Tribe of Gum and a page on the tribe
- CzechOut
It's not continuity. Or, at the very most, we don't know yet whether it's continuity.
- OttselSpy25
No, it's continuity. It's a connection to An Unearthly Child. Continuity.
- CzechOut
This is what you've never gotten. It is not a connection to AUC because there is no Tribe of Gum in AUC.
- OttselSpy25
And this is what you don't understand. There are more connections between the Tribe in AUC and the Tribe in Hunters that just the name. Have you even been reading my posts?
- CzechOut
We just need to wait until the next issue comes out to give us more information. And, of course, there's one more issue in this story beyond that — so we really may not know until May.
- OttselSpy25
I understand that, but connections are still present even now.
- CzechOut
But we don't know what the precise natures of those connections are. Is this actually the group from AUC? Are these individuals the same ones from AUC?
You know, deep down in your soul, that they are not. You've experienced enough Doctor Who to know that this is a narrative trick.
Let's just wait to see how it all plays out.
- OttselSpy25
CzechOut wrote: But we don't know what the precise natures of those connections are. Is this actually the group from AUC? Are these individuals the same ones from AUC?
You know, deep down in your soul, that they are not. You've experienced enough Doctor Who to know that this is a narrative trick.
Let's just wait to see how it all plays out.
No, but we know this:
- The people in the Tribe of Gum have the same name as those in the Tribe from AUC
- They share the exact same apperances of the Tribe from AUC
- They cite the events of AUC
And that's enough that I want to add it to the page.
And I know for a fact that DWM is far too clever to pull the "none of it was real" trick for their anniversary comic again.
- CzechOut
Out of simple curiosity, why do you know this "for a fact"? Your faith is heartwarming and just a little bit cute.
- OttselSpy25
I have faith that DWM won't pull that stupid twist, expecially not when they already brought back Ian and Barbara.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
CzechOut wrote: Out of simple curiosity, why do you know this "for a fact"? Your faith is heartwarming and just a little bit cute.
That's a bit rich, considering you've been saying you know for a fact that they aren't going to be the same. A little consistency would be nice...
- OttselSpy25
Cult Of Skaro wrote:
CzechOut wrote: Out of simple curiosity, why do you know this "for a fact"? Your faith is heartwarming and just a little bit cute.
That's a bit rich, considering you've been saying you know for a fact that they aren't going to be the same. A little consistency would be nice...
Yes! Yes! Exactly!
- CzechOut
Cult Of Skaro wrote:
CzechOut wrote: Out of simple curiosity, why do you know this "for a fact"? Your faith is heartwarming and just a little bit cute.
That's a bit rich, considering you've been saying you know for a fact that they aren't going to be the same. A little consistency would be nice...
A little accuracy would be even nicer. I've never said "I know for a fact" anything. I've consistently said we need to wait for more of the story to be revealed so that we can work with facts. I've used the expression "you know deep down in your soul" which is explicitly not a statement of fact, but merely one of opinion and deep conviction.
OS25 said he "knew for a fact" something, and I was simply wondering what was making him use much more certainty than I had ever introduced into the conversation.
Basically, I was just trying to determine if he actually did know something for a fact, or if he was just using hyperbole.
- OttselSpy25
CzechOut wrote: The way forward here is to move the current contents of Tribe of Gum to just the Tribe, and then start Tribe of Gum such that it contains info only from Hunters. If at some point it all needs to be merged, we can do that. But you and I both know that won't happen. Ultimately there's going to be some story reason why these guys are not the same guys from AUC.
- 86.151.1.169
Speaking as an otherwise ignorant reader of the comic, on the basis that they look like the characters from AUC, and have the same names, and purport to have the same histories, I'd assume that they were the same people even if they turned up and called themselves the Tribe of Anything Other Than Gum. That's not to say that it definitely won't turn out to be a bunch of lies, only that I'm prepared to assume the existence of off-screen events in AUC where they say what their tribe is called, whether it happens to be the name used in the script book and in abandoned drafts of BBC documents, or not86.151.1.169talk to me 19:35, April 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Cult_Of_Skaro
All right, it has now been confirmed that they are one and the same, via flashbacks.
- CzechOut
I'm not so convinced of that, given the nature of the threat in the story. If you return to part one—the bit before Ian and Barbara show up and people got all excited—you'll find that the major threat involves shapeshifting technology, right? Cheshire changes form when she goes into wraith mode. And what's she looking for? Psi-responsive metal which changes shape according to how you think about it. And when the titular "hunters of the Burning Stone" turn up, they all have that unnatural yellow glow going on--the same weird color of yellow that's in Za and company's eyes in the cliffhanger to part two.
Lot of doubt lingering in the narrative, even after the flashbacks of part three, so the page will remain on lockdown until the whole story finishes.
- SOTO
Wouldn't it make more sense to allow people to add info from each part as they come? You seem to be implying that it won't be unlocked until the last part is released.
You can always just lock pages like Tribe of Gum, Hur, Horg and Za. You make an interesting point about shapeshifting, actually, which is why I think we definitely shouldn't jump to any conclusions until the entire is released.
But surely we can still add info after the release of each part?
EDIT: Wait, I'm confused: none of the related pages are locked. So what did you mean by "the page will remain on lockdown?"
- CzechOut
You're a little late to this particular party, SOTO. The pages have been locked, or not, according to the way that edit wars were happening at the time. In general, we're loathe to lock pages, so locks occur only on the basis of positive evidence of an edit war. They aren't locked on the basis of suspicion.
There wasn't much of an edit war going on at Tribe of Gum so it remains editable.
Now, if one does break out there, then I can certainly lock that too. But the thing that's most worrying is that people were making declarative statements at Hunters of the Burning Stone (comic story) that weren't based on a complete understanding of the story.
In general, you're absolutely right that we allow unfinished comic stories to remain editable while the story is ongoing, as long as people don't go beyond reporting what has already been published.
In this case, the block came to stop an edit war (and to try, unsuccessfully as it turned out, to try to prevent OS25 from getting blocked), and it seems justified to maintain it to prevent a lot of unnecessary editing and re-editing.
If users want to write about the article before the story is concluded, they can always go to Talk:Hunters of the Burning Stone (comic story) and leave their proposed changes there.
- SOTO
I have been following this particular party. :)
Anyway, it's not actually locked at the moment. There's only the template saying it is. Either the lock expired, or it was never done properly. Considering you seem to want the Hunters page to be locked, I'd look into that if I were you.
- SOTO
Right. You set it to expire April. I noticed you locked it now. Sorry for the confusion.
- Quest?on
Now that the story has been fully released, what do we do with the articles?
- Cult_Of_Skaro
Quest?on wrote: Now that the story has been fully released, what do we do with the articles?
What was the answer as to the Tribe's nature?
- OttselSpy25
They were the tribe from An Unearthly Child. They were directly identified as so multiple times. There was not even the slightest suggestion ever stated that it wasn't them. Thus it is them, any suggestion otherwise is speculation. The page should be renamed "Tribe of Gum" (If it isn't already so) and info on the characters in the story should be added to the page. Case closed.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
OttselSpy25 wrote: They were the tribe from An Unearthly Child. They were directly identified as so multiple times. There was not even the slightest suggestion ever stated that it wasn't them. Thus it is them, any suggestion otherwise is speculation. The page should be renamed "Tribe of Gum" (If it isn't already so) and info on the characters in the story should be added to the page. Case closed.
Back, I see? :)
- OttselSpy25
Cult Of Skaro wrote:
OttselSpy25 wrote: They were the tribe from An Unearthly Child. They were directly identified as so multiple times. There was not even the slightest suggestion ever stated that it wasn't them. Thus it is them, any suggestion otherwise is speculation. The page should be renamed "Tribe of Gum" (If it isn't already so) and info on the characters in the story should be added to the page. Case closed.
Back, I see? :)
Yes, yes indeed...
- StevieGLiverpool
It is the one from An Unearthly Child. In the comic, it is directed as the ones from this episode. It even has scenes from AUC, in the comic!
- OttselSpy25
Could someone please update Template:Companions_of_the_Eleventh_Doctor to include Ian and Barbara? Thanks.
- CzechOut
Why? Just because they share one story, they're not necessarily companions. They can be, if, as with Ly-Chee, the one story is implied to have contained multiple adventures. But if it's just one adventure in one story, I'm not sure that quite qualifies. Witness that Jayne Kadett is not considered a companion of the Tenth Doctor.
- OttselSpy25
Well, they traveled together in the TARDIS to multiple different places with him and they were constantly by his side. They're more companions then Jackie Tyler ever was, yet you insist she counts. I don't see why they wouldn't.
- CzechOut
But it was one continuous adventure, wasn't it? There's no suggestion in the comic that there was time compression in the story, is there? I mean, there's no narrative break in the action is there?
The case you have to make is why these two and not Jayne Kadett. Jackie is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
- OttselSpy25
CzechOut wrote: The case you have to make is why these two and not Jayne Kadett. Jackie is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
No, Jayne is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. I don't even know who that is. That's a whole other discussion, how that companion is treated is entirely irrelevant to this one.
I don't see what the issue is here. They traveled in the TARDIS with the Doctor. They were by his side throughout the whole adventure. They served the role that the companion is supposed to serve. How many trips they went on is entirely irrelevant.
Again, look at how we treat other "companions" for comparrison. Christina de Souza is considered a companion of the Tenth Doctor, and he wouldn't let her travel with him. She's considered one because she went on one trip by accident and it wasn't even in the TARDIS. But two people who went on multiple trips in the TARDIS (Not stories mind you, but trips) with the Eleventh Doctor by both their and his choice (Well, Kinda...) aren't companions? What?
They don't need to have traveled on multiple trips to be considered a companion. That's why we have a "Single-adventure" sub-section.
- CzechOut
Well, you kinda have to argue in terms of other comics companions. You're saying "because these two were previous televised companions" — or really "because these two are Barbara and Ian, for goodness sakes!" — they are necessarily companions. But they're merely guest stars here, in much the same way that we correctly identify Sarah Jane as a guest star on School Reunion, not a companion.
I mean, the Doctor doesn't land, pick them up, and go on travelling with them. He's travelling very much alone in this story and encounters them by others' design at the end of part one. This isn't his choice; he's forced to sort of protect them, more or less. And a lot of the travelling isn't by TARDIS at all.
It's a very traditional comic book set-up, which is found in dozens of other stories with characters so obscure that no one cares about them. The only difference here is that it's Ian and Barbara, characters we love and know.
But that's just not good enough. These templates will swell to the bursting point if we don't apply some sort of logic to them. And a "good enough" logic — given that we know there is no definition of companion — is that for comics there must be an implication of more than one adventure, even if there's only one story.
So that's why Jayne Kadett doesn't make the cut, but Andric and Ly-Chee do. The "single adventure" sub-section simply cannot mean what you imply. It's not enough to have a single adventure. Seriously, there would be dozens of people who fit that description. It must be that in that single adventure there is an implication of some kind of additional travels.
Now, television is a totally different beast, because there we have the advantage of end credits — or, nowadays, title sequences. Generally, it's preferable, where possible, to use an out-of-universe rationale for assigning the title "companion". So if Nick Briggs tells us that a person in an audio is a companion, or if the titles give us the name "Michelle Ryan", then they're companions. And that's fair enough because the term really came from the press, anyway.
But with comics we generally don't have the advantage of out-of-universe sources, so we have to come up with something that makes sense for that medium, and something that won't make the templates balloon out of control. There's clearly a need to draw a line between someone like Ly-Chee and someone like Death's Head or Abslom Daak — just to pick two of the more famous guest-stars-who-aren't-companions.
- OttselSpy25
I fail to see the logic in your reasoning.
For one, I am against the treating of one type of story differently from anther, and two I really don't think that "We'd have a lot of things in the info boxes then!" is a very strong argument either.
Plus, what if there was a TV companion that we couldn't find any official person calling a "companion"? Wilfred Mott comes to mind. All bets are off there. And in terms of how high they are in the credits? Well then I guess John Simm is a companion too.
And if we're gonna start profiling comics against TV stories, then I don't think that the flawed logic of "If they just shared one story with that Doctor they don't count is the way to start at all. It's not even as if it means only one trip because one story can constitute multiple trips, as is the case here. The difference between Abslom Daak and Ian and Barbara is that in those stories Abslom was just a side character. Here, quite clearly, Ian and Barbara are serving the roles of companions. That you can't argue against, that's what they are in this story. How long they did it for is entirely irrelevant.
- JagoAndLitefoot
Just because the tribe was not named in the previous story doesn't mean it getting an actual name later isn't valid. There are of cases when a character wasn't named in the story they first appeared in but only got a proper name afterwards - it doesn't make the name any less valid.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
JagoAndLitefoot wrote: Just because the tribe was not named in the previous story doesn't mean it getting an actual name later isn't valid. There are of cases when a character wasn't named in the story they first appeared in but only got a proper name afterwards - it doesn't make the name any less valid.
I'm pretty sure now it's over, Czech's perfectly okay with the name change. Tribe of Gum links to the AUC tribe.
- CzechOut
I'm not really, you know.
I'm still highly suspicious of it. DWM had no sooner confirmed through its crossword that "Tribe of Gum" was only a pre-production name of the tribe then it made this move to enshrine the name narratively in its comic. But it makes no real sense, because it should be, logically, the "Tribe of Za".
Why would a guy named Za lead a tribe that doesn't bear his name? Certainly, the production history of the episode is that Gum became Za and therefore the name The Tribe of Gum was abandoned, in preference for 100,000 BC. And the script of 100,000 BC is replete with references that entirely suggest that a tribe is personal to the leader of it. Za tells Ian that "your tribe and my tribe will join together", that Kal's tribe could not have discovered the secret of fire because they would not then have needed to have joined with Za's tribe, and several other references.
The only wiggle room I see is that it's not technically Za's tribe until the end of the story. So maybe prior to his production of fire it's the "Tribe of Gum" — but then who's Gum?
The comic didn't do one thing to explain where the name "Gum" comes from. And my reading of the story is still that they're not the real tribe, but merely dopplegangers created by the psi-responsive metal. If you look at the way Za and others are drawn, they're consistently shown to have those weird, gold-glowing eyes — precisely like other things which are said to be psi-metal replicants.
As with any article here, though, multiple edits of many months and years are usually required to get to the "truth" of the matter. I think that once it comes out in a collected form, and it's possible to examine it as a whole without having to flip through a stack of DWM issues, it's gonna be a bit easier to make sense of the story. We might even get some author notes that point out details in the panels that we haven't hitherto noticed.
And if we get absolutely nothing from the collected edition, and nothing emerges from being able to more conveniently read the story, then I might make my peace with it. But for right now, I'm still putting this in the "doesn't make any sense" category.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
CzechOut wrote: I'm not really, you know.
I'm still highly suspicious of it. DWM had no sooner confirmed through its crossword that "Tribe of Gum" was only a pre-production name of the tribe then it made this move to enshrine the name narratively in its comic. But it makes no real sense, because it should be, logically, the "Tribe of Za".
Why would a guy named Za lead a tribe that doesn't bear his name? Certainly, the production history of the episode is that Gum became Za and therefore the name The Tribe of Gum was abandoned, in preference for 100,000 BC. And the script of 100,000 BC is replete with references that entirely suggest that a tribe is personal to the leader of it. Za tells Ian that "your tribe and my tribe will join together", that Kal's tribe could not have discovered the secret of fire because they would not then have needed to have joined with Za's tribe, and several other references.
The only wiggle room I see is that it's not technically Za's tribe until the end of the story. So maybe prior to his production of fire it's the "Tribe of Gum" — but then who's Gum?
The comic didn't do one thing to explain where the name "Gum" comes from. And my reading of the story is still that they're not the real tribe, but merely dopplegangers created by the psi-responsive metal. If you look at the way Za and others are drawn, they're consistently shown to have those weird, gold-glowing eyes — precisely like other things which are said to be psi-metal replicants.
As with any article here, though, multiple edits of many months and years are usually required to get to the "truth" of the matter. I think that once it comes out in a collected form, and it's possible to examine it as a whole without having to flip through a stack of DWM issues, it's gonna be a bit easier to make sense of the story. We might even get some author notes that point out details in the panels that we haven't hitherto noticed.
And if we get absolutely nothing from the collected edition, and nothing emerges from being able to more conveniently read the story, then I might make my peace with it. But for right now, I'm still putting this in the "doesn't make any sense" category.
Those are fair points. I wonder if Gum is the location? (Please note that I am fully aware that this is blatant speculation.)
- OttselSpy25
This is all blatant speculation. It's clearly the tribe from that story, flashback sequences make it clear that the tribe are one in the same and explain how they got there. They are identified as the same people. They have the same names, faces, and memories. All you seem to be leading in you speculation that it secretly isn't them is that the name of the group is off. That is, at most, an irrelevant production error. More likely it's a retcon, as we should treat it.
There's no hidden messages in the comic, if you read it backwards it doesn't read "I am walrus," and the Tribe of Gum were the same tribe was saw in An Unearthly Child. Case closed really.
- JagoAndLitefoot
Gum might have been intended to be a personal name in the first draft, but by now it might mean a location or some ancestor of the tribe.
- SOTO
I'm just salvaging a post by OttselSpy25 that got dumped here:
- This is all blatant speculation. It's clearly the tribe from that story, flashback sequences make it clear that the tribe are one in the same and explain how they got there. They are identified as the same people. They have the same names, faces, and memories. All you seem to be leading in you speculation that it secretly isn't them is that the name of the group is off. That is, at most, an irrelevant production error. More likely it's a retcon, as we should treat it.
- There's no hidden messages in the comic, if you read it backwards it doesn't read "I am walrus," and the Tribe of Gum were the same tribe was saw in An Unearthly Child. Case closed really.
I'm personally mostly impartial to this one so I won't butt in.
- CzechOut
I would of course dispute OS's supposed clarity. Comics are about both their scripts and their art. And visually there is an awful lot of case to believe that something is "off", because the tribe doesn't look like other, normal people in the strip. They have gold light streaming from their eyes. That means something. You can't view the parts that have the tribe in isolation from those parts that don't. Part one explains the psi-metal "effect" which looks exactly like what's happening to the tribe. And it's in the name: psi-metal. Metal that responds to and takes form from thought and memory.
- OttselSpy25
They have gold eyes because they have the power of the guys in the comic. We get a back story showing when they left Earth with other tribes and their journey up until now. If the most argument that you can make for the idea that it isn't them is that "Their name is not what it was before" and "Their appearances is slight different," well all I'm gonna say is that Ace and Ace Mcshane must be different people too; different names, different personalities, dress differently
- OttselSpy25
Again, this all seems to be more of your speculation then actually details about the story.
- CzechOut
It's the complete opposite of speculation. It's saying that we need to read very closely, absorb everything, and not take anything at face value.
- OttselSpy25
While you haven't shown any proof that there is something to be found be closely looking for Paul is Dead hints in the comic.
EDIT: Just wanted to pop-in and say that in one of the panels the gods clearly say that the journey of the Tribesmen across folded space made them lead through time. So that's why they're in the future. They're not clones. Thanks.
I found the entire story somewhat confusing, to be honest. There are a lot of panels where substantial doubt is thrown into the mix as to whether what we're seeing is real. After all, Coal Hill School does not actually appear in this comic, despite the fact that several pages in part two appear to be set there. Indeed, we see when the trio step out of the "prison" back onto the Sontaran ship that they pass through the golden effect associated with the psychic metal. Equally, in the same part, psychic metal is described as being "powered by emotion — they use people, turn them into psychic transmitters". That's enough doubt to make me think that when we see Za all a-goldened that we're not really seeing Za at all. Rather, a valid interpretation of events is that we're seeing things drawn from Barbara and Ian's collective memories. I think that the whole psychedelic nature of part four kinda lends itself to that interpretation: they're just traipsing from place to place as if on an LSD trip.
I only rejoined this conversation because someone had spoken for me. I just wanted to say that, in fact, I'm still not on board with the very denotative interpretation that principally you have been driving, OS25, from the very start. Just because people show up and call themselves the Tribe of Gum, I'm really not prepared to believe them — especially because of the reality-bending nature of the central MacGuffin of this plot. If the story weren't based on the chase for psi-metal, I'd be much less on the fence.
But the truth is that I am, based on my disjointed initial read of the story, still scratching my head over this one. Until the trade comes out and I can really study the thing as a singular story, that's probably where my mind will stay.
But there's no barrier on the articles being edited now, and I'm not closely monitoring them. In the earlier stages of this conversation, I had an administrative interest in locking the articles down until the story was completely released. Now that it has been, people can begin the process of examining the whole story and writing articles based on that.
As in the case of every article though, I caution all editors to simply be careful. Write from your best, most objective understanding of the story. Don't write what you think is there, or what other people have told you is there. And, as is always, always, always the case in Doctor Who fiction – never assume that a cliffhanger contains narrative truth.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:124422
Did this have a comic preview, and if so, could someone post it? Thanks.
- CzechOut
No, it didn't. It was announced in DWM 352 and reviewed in DWM 354. Understandably, DWM were a little more concerned with the launch of series 1 than Melanie Bush on audio.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:124554
can someone please help me solves these things
8 across - nurse encountered by the eleventh doctor - *L****
34 across and 2 down - dance performed by the eleventh doctor - *R*NK ***A**E
13 down - john smith saved a woman and her baby from being killed by this - **A*O
12 across - Harriet Jones for example - ** - its either mp or pm i just don't know which.The Second letter is the first letter of 13 down if that helps
- Consoleroom42
34 across and 2 down is drunk giraffe.
figured it out just after i started the discussion.
that makes 8 across - *L*I**
- Shambala108
13 down is piano (Human Nature/The Family of Blood)
so it sounds like 12 across would then be MP.
- CzechOut
8 across has me stumped. Are you sure it's Eleventh Doctor? There's nothing in category:Human nurses that matches.
- Shambala108
Could it be a cat nurse? Like in Let's Kill Hitler?
- Shambala108
OK the cat nurse doesn't have a name. The only nurses I could find associated with 11 are Rory and Strax.
- CzechOut
- CzechOut
Just to make it a little clearer what we're looking for:
- _ L _ I _ _
- CzechOut
Oh I guess we should ask at this point why you're sure that the second letter is L. What's the clue that's produced that result?
- CzechOut
Oh, duh, the answer is C L A I R E. That was eluding us because no one had put that page into category:Human nurses.
These crossword questions are great, because they show us flaws in our pages.
- Consoleroom42
thanks for the help guys
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:124623
In season 3 episode 8 Martha runs into Tim Latimer on her way to inform 'John Smith' that The Family has found him. Tim flashes to another time where Martha has run into him. What episode does that flash come from?
- SOTO
I'm pretty sure that's from the Doctor's memories, as he was holding the watch.
- CzechOut
It comes from Human Nature. It's not a reuse of film from elsewhere; it was shot for this episode. You'll note that Tim actually appears in the modern environment shared by the modern Martha, and modern Martha's lines fit precisely into those of Martha-in-the-past. Also, Martha is wearing the all black outfit from the top and tails of this episode — something I'm pretty sure wasn't seen in any previously-produced episode. (But the clinching evidence is that Tim is in the modern environment.)
It's definitely not reuse of footage from other episodes.
- SOTO
I think it's meant to be Tim being inserted into the Doctor's memories, in his place. But, to answer the question, the flash doesn't come from any episode and, as CzechOut said, was made specifically for the episode.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:124699
I think Czech mentioned somewhere that Season 25 was broadcast out of chronological order. What is the correct order?
- Shambala108
Production order is Remembrance of the Daleks, The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, Silver Nemesis, and The Happiness Patrol, if that helps.
- CzechOut
Well, there's usually very little in most given seasons that narratively locks the stories into broadcast order. Does Talons have to be the season finale of season 14? Not really. Does City of Death actually come before Creature from the Pit? Not for any reason I can see. Now, obviously, there are parts of the classic run that have to happen in broadcast era. The Davison era, Trial of a Time Lord and a lot of the black and white stories have fairly clear linking bits. Mostly, though, broadcast chronology is used for narrative chronology more because it's easy than because it's necessary.
S25 is not broadcast in the correct order though for reasons given at The Greatest Show in the Galaxy#Production errors. I suppose that the production order is perhaps that correct narrative order, though I'm not sure that Remembrance needs to be the opener. I think it could be the finalé. But for simplicity, Shambala's order works well enough.
- Tangerineduel
You can also check out our Theory:Timeline - Seventh Doctor page. Which doesn't help much in relation to S25 (at the moment), but would be the best place to put reasons why if/when you have proof as to why they take place when they take place.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
Ah, yes! Thanks for that, I had forgotten all about the Theory pages.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:124789
Through my dives into this incredible wiki, I have come across a couple of different objects that seem to be sources of incredible power,be it as a power source or a weapon. The ones I've found so far are the Hand of Omega and the Eye of Harmony. Are there any others and, if so, what are they?
- Tangerineduel
You've mentioned the Hand of Omega and the Eye of Harmony the places to find more of these sorts of things is in the categories (listed at the bottom of the pages of these).
So you could look at:
And its sub-category:
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:124941
Is that a real book?
- Jelly Baby410
It's not. It should be, but it's not.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:125180
Just finished watching this great story which ends with the Doctor, Sarah Jane, Harry, the Brig and the (real) Duke walking to the parked TARDIS in the forest. Now, if anyone could enlighten me, how is it that the Duke knew the TARDIS' name, even more so what it was? As far as I know, he'd just come out of the Zygon ship earlier that day!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:125312
Could someone tell me whether the regeneration of the Third Doctor in Interference was ever negated and when this happened? I'm not sure what to do with it in my personal canon ATM.
- Tangerineduel
It gets negated in The Ancestor Cell (novel).
You can read something of how it was negated on TARDIS control room#Edifice.
- Cult_Of_Skaro
Thanks. :)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:125567
Think about it, they both exist across different time periods, there can be multiple versions of them, and they can create there own reality per say. With Clara it was the crashed spaceship where she made soufflés and for CAL, it was the Library. This is just a theory but any thoughts?
- SOTO
The Reference Desk is for questions that can easily be answered without speculation, which this one cannot. Please direct this thought at the Howling, the place in our wiki where speculative theories can be discussed. It can be found here. Thank you. :)
- ComicBookGoddess
I posted your question here Howling:Theories_about_Clara, I've also heard some other theories.
- 27.55.12.83
I think there is a connection. Clara's catchphrase is 'run you clever boy...and remember. In Forest of the Dead, Cal says, at the end, 'Aren't I a clever girl' and during the episode Dr Moon keeps saying 'and then you remembered.'
Also, Cal's name is Charlotte Abigail Lux. Lux is Latin for 'light' and Clara is Latin for 'bright'. Not to mention the fact that Clara looks like a grown-up Cal.
Quite why Cal would be resurrected is beyond me though!
- ComicBookGoddess
Mosey on over to the Howling, you're welcome to chime in!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:125657
can we? Cause I have a theroy/question
- Shambala108
Questions can be asked here, theories belong on the Howling.
- SOTO
If you're unsure of something within a Torchwood story, feel free to ask here. If, however, it involves speculation, it best be brought straight to the Howling. Pretty much, anything that involves theories belong at the Howling, and anything that's a direct question that you think there'll be only one answer to, you ask you. Don't over-think it — sometimes it seems like a straight-forward question, but it turns out there's no one straight answer. Don't be afraid to bring it here if you're not sure.
Anyway, what question did you have in mind?
- SOTO
I like Shambabla's answer better — much more straight-forward. I hope it's clear to you. :)
- 76.217.25.127
Thank you guys so much! I think I'm just going to post it to howling! Thanks!
- 69.125.134.86
Hard to say. Every single question I've posted in this Forum has been moved or deleted. I guess some moderator here has an unspoken purity test of what is and is not a quick question.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:126203
Okay, I don't understand what happened when the Doctor rescued River Song from time loop in the exploding TARDIS, then piloted the Pandorica into the TARDIS.
Did this take the TARDIS out of the time loop? How did the Pandorica affect the exploding TARDIS? Did it explode? Was history rewritten and it never actually was on the verge of exploding at all? And when time restarted and the Doctor was on the "other side" of the timeline, how was he and the TARDIS restored into existence by Amy's memory?
- ComicBookGoddess
The Doctor took the Pandorica into the exploding TARDIS. The restoration field inside the Pandorica used the power of the exploding TARDIS to reach every moment and particle of space and time (because, as the TARDIS herself said, she exists across all space and time), with a sample of the original universe as extrapolated - in the sense of "projected mathematically" - by Amy's memory of the prior universe. This restoration field - already proven powerful enough to raise the dead - resurrected all of space and time. However, as it was based off of Amy's memories, she had a chance to edit things a little - remember how the Doctor was trying to get her to remember Rory when he died? It worked this time.
I kind of wondered if there was a copy of the Doctor that got stuck outside, in the Void, or if her memories just brought him back over the line.
Does that help?
- 69.125.134.86
That kind of helps. I never thought of the "restoration field" of the Pandorica because wasn't the Pandorica created out of Amy's memories ("Pandora's Box)? I'm not sure if it actually existed.
As far as The Doctor, in the episode recap it says he stepped through the crack in Amy's wall and was sealed on the other side (which is where?) but I've seen that episode several times and I don't remember seeing this happen.
Did Amy not only bring back The Doctor but also bring back the TARDIS through her memories? Did both not exist until that June day in 2010? My brain hurts. : (
I guess my final question is what did The Silence have to do with exploding the TARDIS? I know "the Silence will fall when the question is asked" in a certain place at a certain time, so was exploding the TARDIS Plan A for killing The Doctor and River Song shooting him, Plan B?
- ComicBookGoddess
The Pandorica was created by the Coalition, from an idea taken from Amy's memories. (And isn't the symbolism there just awesome?)
His walk back through time was him entering the crack - his timeline was being unravelled and he got to relive things because of that.
She brought both him and the TARDIS back when she remembered. As she had remembered, once they were back, that had always been there. (And yes, this is one of those things that's tough to get.) If she hadn't remembered, they would have always not been there.
Try thinking of it this way: you have two pieces of film running simultaneously next to each other, in a kind of flimsy projector. The left is history without the Doctor and TARDIS, the right is history with the Doctor and TARDIS. The projector was showing the film on the left. At this point, if you rewinded, you'd see the past of that film - no Doctor. When Amy remembered, the projector got knocked over to the right side track and the mechanism severed the film on the left. Now when somebody who came in late asks you to go back and replay it, you only see the film on the right. Doctor!
It's a slightly different film, but it's now the only one that we could have seen.
Ah, see, we still don't fully know what the plans of the Silence entail - there's still unresolved doesn't make sense yet stuff. Personally, I think they engineered the explosion somehow but that is TOTAL speculation.
- CodeXenigma
The whole story line is a time loop. The crack in Amelia Pond's wall is caused by the TARDIS exploding. River only exists because she was conceived on-board the TARDIS. The Doctor on regenerating crashes in Amelia's garden. The crack itself makes people(and weeping angels) disappear from existence. It was only because of the Coalition using Amy's memories that everyone was brought back from the other side of the crack. Rory and her parents, so the Doctor knew it could work, if Amy cared enough about her son~in~law to save him to.
Now how does Clara suddenly fit into this equation. Run you clever boy and remember me. Who is Clara? It seems impossible that the Doctor has just 'moved on' from creating so much history with the Pond's. How does Clara fit into this storyline?
We try to confine each thread here to a single topic that doesn't require speculation to answer. But now that the thread has moved on to questions about Clara and how she might fit into the events of Pandorica, we're moving into Gallifrey Base territory.
Please try to remember in future to confine Reference Desk threads to one area of inquiry which does not require speculation to answer.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:126441
It would appear our anniversary special has a name.
(link contains a spoiler aside from the name, if you intend to avoid all BBC updates for the next eight months)
- SOTO
The title itself is a spoiler.
And, anyway, they obviously wouldn't make the mistake of writing the real title on the scripts, especially with a photo being taken.
It's clear that that's just the name they put on the scripts, much like they used "Torchwood" instead of "Doctor Who" before the new series was announced.
- Witoki
Almost certainly. I'll be hugely surprised if the title stays, but seeing as "Blue Amends" turns up very nonspecific Google results, it would seem this is at least a working title.
- SOTO
I doubt it. They wouldn't let that slip.
Anyway, let me iterate that the general forums are completely spoiler-free according to T:SPOIL.
We are an encyclopaedia, not a news blog — please don't post news here unless it has bearing on the editing of our articles. Especially not spoilers!
- Witoki
Duly noted. Thought it would be interesting to share with you all, wasn't entirely sure where (if anywhere) that would be appropriate.
- ComicBookGoddess
Is the Howling appropriate?
- Shambala108
Right now, the Howling is the only place where you can put any kind of 50th related info. All other forums are spoiler-free. If you're not sure what is a spoiler and where can it go, check out Tardis:Spoiler policy.
- SOTO
Also note that The Reference Desk is for questions only, not announcements. And, before you ask, no, there's nowhere else to post this — we disabled blogs a long while back by community consensus.
In short, don't really have a place for announcements like this on this wiki. Especially considering it involves spoilers.
Please review Tardis:Spoiler policy if you're not clear on this. :)
- Witoki
No worries, feel free to delete/close/what have you this thread. (And enjoy the tip, I suppose!)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:126610
In Cold Blood, The Doctor reaches into the crack in the wall in the Silurian area and pulls out a piece of the exploding TARDIS. But when light from this same crack hits Rory Williams, he is erased from existence.
How could The Doctor reach into the crack and be perfectly fine while Rory completely disappeared as if he never existed?
This thread will now close.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:126617
If in 1969, The Doctor placed a post-hypnotic suggestion into the moon landing that Silents should be shot on sight, how could they exist later in time (the 51st century?) when they abducted River Song, forced her into an astronaut's suit and had her kill The Doctor? The recap for The Day of the Moon implies that they were all killed after people watched the moon landing.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:127735
Has Russell T. Davies or anyone associated with Doctor Who ever explained why they chose the concept of "Bad Wolf"? What does it symbolize? Have there been wolf references previously in Doctor Who?
I've looked at lots of DW sources of information but none that explains why Rose looking at the Time Vortex would lead to an identity of being "Bad Wolf". Why is this bad? Or wolfish?
And before the zealous moderators of the Reference Desk exile this simple question to the netherworlds, it was suggested to me by other users to move this question off of the episode pages into this Forum.
- CzechOut
RTD was highly resistant to the idea of any sort of serial storytelling. There are many interviews from 2005-2006 era in which he talks about how Doctor Who can't be like the then-running Battlestar Galactica because he saw intricately plotted continuity as a recipe for declining viewers and a niche audience.
The Bad Wolf thing was a last-minute addition he dropped in as an experiment to see if he could find another way to do multi story continuity in a more casual-viewer-friendly way. As he says in this old interview, it was just something he sprinkled into scripts at the last minute in such a way that he could remove it if the idea didm't work.
It has no antecedent in previous Doctor Who. Bad Wolf has no hidden meaning that references the old series. It's just a simple, childhood fairytale concept ("Who's afraid of the big, bad wolf?") which Rose uses in a time paradoxical way to alert herself to return to the Doctor's side at the Doctor's time of greatest peril. It's no more, in other words, than what it appears to be by watching series 1.
Many of the actors are still to this day confused by the concept, and there are a few DVD commentaries where a confused Barrowman implies that they talked to RTD to get an explanation and came away empty handed.
It's really just a breadcrumb trail.
One of the most instructive things you can find on the Bad Wolf "thing" is the commentary for The Parting of the Ways. At about 22'30", Julie Gardner tries to shepherd Barrowman and Piper through it all and you immediately understand it really doesn't mean much of anything. It's just a bit of fun.
- CzechOut
Oh yeah :) You also want to look into Girls! Girls! Girls! to hear Piper trying to explain it three years on, and especially the bit where Tennant presses RTD for an answer. He's a good questioner, since he wasn't really present for the Bad Wolf stuff the first time around. RTD is a bit lost for words. So roughly the 8' mark there. Tennant nails Bad Wolf as essentially a "bat signal". RTD laughs and agrees.
- Thunderush
Just a wild guess, but "Bad Wolf" sounds like something is lurking in the shadowy corners of the universe, threatening to rend it apart, much like a hungry wolf. It has no real meaning in RTD's descriptions, so pardon me if I've assumed too much out of something so simple. He probably wanted a phrase that would be memorable and a touch poetic.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:127861
All the forums for this site which I see don't seem relevant to what I want to discuss...which is the topic of the TARDIS' ability to translate languages...problems with this ability etc. If you've got a forum where I can discuss this...then gee, how about making finding it easier?
- CzechOut
Well, you're not very specific about what you want to say about the TARDIS translation circuit, but we're not a general message board. We're a wiki. Our primary task is the creation of encyclopaedic entries for others to read. I know other wikis in the Wikia network do use their forum area as a general sorta message board, but we don't. All our forums are dedicated to improving the editing of the wiki.
We do have another discussion area, but in theory it, too, isn't supposed to be for truly general conversation. The Howling is still supposed to facilitate editing in some way, but it allows spoilers, which may therefore assist editors in the planning of future articles.
If you just want to generally chew the fat about Doctor Who, we recommend Gallifrey Base or a similar message board.
- 202.126.96.218
Okay, thanks. Just assumed that maybe this forum was like other Wikias which did allow general discussion. I'll mosey on down the road then...
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:128236
I am planning to make a cartogram-map (possibly, depends on the data) of all the places on Earth the Doctor has visited.
Additionally, if the data is there, I thought it'd be interesting to also map filming locations (I saw Wales has been mapped a bit).
Basically, I'd like to find the raw data used in this most awesome map by Jonn Elledge (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=207156131558687656554.0004d7c30585843d109d5&ie=UTF8&t=m&source=embed&ll=51.403489,-0.210114&spn=0.342681,0.877533&z=10).
Does anybody know the best place to find a list of place-names? Or must I do some proper research?
Thanks! Email me if you find anything or contact me here: [email protected].
- Tangerineduel
Category:Earth locations contains all our pages about its namesake.
Not all of the locations in that category and its subcategories will correspond to your map as they're only real within the DWU.
You should also take a look at The Location Guide to Doctor Who, Torchwood and The Sarah Jane Adventures which has info about the real world locations of where all the stories were shot. The site has info about location shoots and and studio.
- CzechOut
Yeah the other tricky bit about the pages in Earth locations that would be unsuitable for your project is that it's not a list of places on Earth the Doctor has visited. It's the rather – well, very much — larger list of places that have been mentioned in DWU sources]].
We don't actually have a category like "Places on Earth the Doctor has visited", so we really don't have any usable data for you, as such.
Though if you wanted to go through category:Earth locations and add Category:Earth locations visited by the Doctor, you could generate such a list.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:129122
Do you think would it be ever possible for somebody else than the Time Lords to destroy the TARDIS?
- Shambala108
It's possible that there is an audio/prose/comic story where this happens.
However, if you want to have a discussion speculating on whether it can happen, you would need to post at Howling:The Howling, which is the only place on the wiki where these kinds of discussions are allowed. This forum is meant for "quick facts—but not speculation".
- CzechOut
It's established in AUDIO: False Gods that a TARDIS can be destroyed by flying it into the heart of a sun. The Stolen Earth also said that the Daleks had found a way to destroy TARDISes, and that the Doctor's TARDIS was almost certainly going to be destroyed by that process. So yes, there are ways, established in narratives, that a TARDIS can be destroyed by someone other than a Time Lord. To speculate only mildly, there's really not much of a Time War unless someone other than Time Lords, specifically the Daleks, can destroy TARDISes.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:129299
The page Truffle is terribly unclear. Can someone look at the source and tell me if this is supposed to be the fungus or if it's supposed to be chocolate. Or something else that's circular and not a fungus. Thanks.
- SOTO
It's kind of hard to tell, what with the monochrome, but it definitely looks more like chocolate than fungus.
- SOTO
Actually no: definitely chocolate. Susan eats it too.
- CzechOut
I'd hasten to point out that even if this instance establishes "chocolate", that doesn't mean the fungi don't exist in the DWU. Under T:DAB, you should just assume the existence of the other, and nominate the existing truffle for a {{speedy rename}} to chocolate truffle. Truffle should be for the fungi only, since chocolate truffles are based upon real truffles.
- Anoted
Done and done. Article edited and speedy rename attached. How does Susan eating the truffle indicate that it's chocolate?
- SOTO
It doesn't; it just looks very much like chocolate and nothing like a fungus. I only mentioned Susan eating it because we get a better view of it then.
- Anoted
Ahhh...I was wondering for a mo if Susan had some weird anti-truffle rule. Seemed implausible, but, ynk.
- CzechOut
Okay, I've since had occasion to watch the scene in question, and Anoted's question — how does Susan eating the truffle indicate that it's chocolate? — is a good one. I'm holding back on the page move because of it, not that I disagree with SOTO's response, but just that I want to get an unambiguous reference to a dessert/chocolate truffle from somewhere else to establish the name in the DWU. When that's done then we can say that Susan appears to be eating one.
- CzechOut
Oh, and I also think that the fungi truffle almost certainly exists in the DWU, so that complicates things a bit, too. A bit more research needed all round, I fear.
- SOTO
A simple transcript search gave me this:
- Rubeish: Steak and mushrooms, lobster, chocolate truffles. Oh dear me, yes.
- (TV: The Time Warrior)
There you go — a source for "chocolate truffle".
- SOTO
While we're at it, what kind of "truffle" is this?
- Second Doctor: With a stuffing of black pudding made of live pig's blood, herbs, and pepper. And the breasts of the birds should be slit and studied with truffles.
- (TV: The Two Doctors)
- CzechOut
Fungus.
- SOTO
Oh. Good. Now we have enough to create both pages. Hopefully other media will give us more.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:129782
Gatiss is a little vague on this one. At time he indicates the Crimson Horror is the red leech. At other times it's the venom. And at still others, it's the disease imparted by the venom. At present, crimson horror redirects to red leech, and the Crimson Horror redirects to the episode page. That's almost certainly not gonna cut it. How should we best handle these various meanings?
- Doug86
If I recall correctly, the term "crimson horror" was given to the dead bodies by the penny dreadfuls, who would not have been aware of the existence of the creature, and the venom itself was only discovered in separate investigations by the Doctor and Vastra, neither of whom would have made it public. Doug86 ☎ 04:06, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
- SOTO
If I may interject, the humans that named it 'the Crimson Horror' could not possibly have known about the leech, nor its venom. The name referred to the phenomenon itself in which people were found dead, red and all the rest. The Doctor's "I preferred 'the Crimson Horror'" is simply a reference to how much cooler and more mysterious it sounds than 'red leech', which sounds boring and deadly.
Could you perhaps list the instances in which you think the script's referring to the leech or the venom as the Crimson Horror?
Also, Crimson Horror should probably be the page for the phenomenon (we usually leave out the "the" in articles), and the Crimson Horror should remain a redirect to the episode, with a {{you may}} at the top. Still, open to others' opinions.
- SOTO
Sorry; wrote that before Doug86 wrote his response. Should really reload the page while typing.
But, yeah, he's pretty much making the same point as me: the people who named it just that had absolutely no knowledge of anything other than the weird disease and the bodies being found.
I think this is a much clearer case than that of the Sun-singers of Akhet, Akhaten's being either a planet or a star or the likes. Instead of all the information just being conflicting statements of one person (the Doctor), we have statements from a multitude of people, and the Doctor, having only just heard the term, does not really have any jurisdiction over its meaning, even if you choose to think he implies the Horror to be anything other than the disease.
- Thunderush
Much like the Empty Child plague, the term can be thrown around two ways: a symbolic meaning and a straight definition. For the Empty Child, a child who acts hollow and empty, and a plague associated with the nanogenes that twisted his appearance. For the Crimson Horror, the nickname of the red leech, and the phenomenon pertaining to the red-skinned victims of its venom.
- CzechOut
SmallerOnTheOutside wrote: Could you perhaps list the instances in which you think the script's referring to the leech or the venom as the Crimson Horror?
- VASTRA: … and our greatest plague, the most virulent enemy, was the repulsive red leech
- DOCTOR: Oooooh. "The repulsive red leech"! Nah, on balance, I think I prefer "the Crimson Horror". What was it, exactly?
- VASTRA: A tiny parasite. It infected our drinking water. And once in our systems, it secreted a fatal poison.
- DOCTOR: So it's been hanging around, lurking in the shadows. Maybe it's evolved. Maybe it's had help.
To me, this pretty clearly shows that they're talking about the creature being the Crimson Horror. I draw from this scene that the red leech is the Crimson Horror, but in other cases it's more the manner of death — as Doug points out – "ginned up" by the penny-dreadfuls.
- Doug86
To my mind, he's not saying that the red leech is called the Crimson Horror, but that of the two phrases he thinks the latter sounds better. 17:54, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
- CzechOut
Hmmm, I guess i can see that reading, but the pronoun it in "What was it, exactly" is closest to "the Crimson Horror", so I'd lean toward believing that they are defining the Crimson Horror.
- DexterMaximus
I thought it was the effects of the venom of the Red Leech. Another thing, how did Winifred Gillyflower not get the Crimson Horror? She had a Red Leech attached to her, giving her the liquids from it's body. Wouldn't she be poisoned? Unless it's harmless, and they were making it into poison?
- Anoted
CzechOut wrote: Hmmm, I guess i can see that reading, but the pronoun it in "What was it, exactly" is closest to "the Crimson Horror", so I'd lean toward believing that they are defining the Crimson Horror.
I disagree. The Doctor has a habit of starting to say one thing, getting himself off-topic with an irrelevant aside and then switching back to the original topic all in one breath. In this exchange the Doctor gets diverted from the topic (red leech) for a second because he has to comment on how scary it sounds (Oooooh. "The repulsive red leech"!) and then on how he thinks that the townspeople in Victorian times were clearly better at naming things then the Silirians were bajillions of years ago (Nah, on balance, I think I prefer "the Crimson Horror".) before actually replying to Vastra and asking for further information.
"What was it, exactly?" is a reply to Vastra saying "and our greatest plague, the most virulent enemy, was the repulsive red leech". The stuff he says before that in that line isn't a reply to her, it's the Doctor finding the urgency of stopping the bad guys not quite urgent enough to keep him from wasting time remarking on who comes up with better names. He's not saying that "the Crimson Horror" is a better name for this animal, he's saying it's a better name, period.
I think that we should have Red Leech - the animal Crimson Tide - the devastation of the red dead bodies The Crimson Tide TV story - the episode ???? - poison secreted by the Red Leech The problem is that we don't really have name for the poison that isn't also the name the penny dreadfuls gave to the bodies. We can't have separate articles for the dead bodies and the poison without using a conjecture title like "Red Leech poison".
- CzechOut
Fair enough. (Though, if I can make the obvious joke, Anoted, I don't think this episode was set in Alabama.) If I can take a stab at stating the apparent consensus of the thread:
- Crimson Horror - the disease, as named by the penny-dreadfuls. Capped because that's how the papers at the time would almost certainly have named it, for extra sensation.
- The Crimson Horror - change the redirect to The Crimson Horror (TV story)
- red leech - the parasite
- red leech poison (both the Doctor and Vastra independently call it "poison", though the Doctor says, "poison, a kind of venom", so therefore a redirect at red leech venom is probably valid. Not really conjectural, though — simply not the proper, scientific name. A poison which the red leech secretes — words the script does give us — is logically the "red leech poison".
I would however, like a BTS note at red leech and Crimson Horror to the effect that it is possible to red the scene denotatively to suggest that the Crimson Horror could be the leech. I think a {{you may}} tophat at Crimson Horror to red leech is also reasonable.
Objections?
- SOTO
I agree mostly, although I don't see the need for a conjectural red leech poison when we can just put all the info on red leech. If it were independent of the parasite, it'd be a different story, but it's not — the venom is just part of their natural biology, and thus should, in my opinion, feature on the species article.
- CzechOut
Red leech poison isn't really conjectural. Vastra says "it secreted a fatal poison". So, using common sense English, "it" means "red leech", and thus there's "red leech poison". {{conjecture}} is for when we're wholly creating a term not at all supported by the script.
It can have its own page, as we have clear visual evidence that it is a separate thing to the red leech itself. If we can have cattle and milk, or humans and blood, or bees and honey, we can have red leech and red leech poison.
- SOTO
Okay, you have me there. Although you really should note that both milk and blood are completely independent of cattle and humans, as they can both come from almost any other species.
Still, I guess I have nothing in particular against red leech poison. No further comments, Your Honour. :)
- Anoted
We have lots of articles that have close to 100% overlap with other articles. It's not about how much information we have, it's about the way the article would be written in the Whoniverse. In the Whoniverse an Encyclopedia article on "red leech" would have information about where they originated, what animals were closest related while in the poison article it would have information on how the poison works and so on. Our articles are limited by how much information we have.
So we end up with articles Gallavax Prime and Drink (Original Sin) when all we know about Gallavax Prime is that it's the place where a drink we don't have a name for was purchased.
Czech, is the title not conjecture because because we're not the ones making the conjecture (though the characters are)?
- CzechOut
Anoted wrote: Czech, is the title not conjecture because because we're not the ones making the conjecture (though the characters are)?
Well, a conjecture is really when you come to a conclusion based upon incomplete information. Red leech poison would at worst be a plain English name based entirely upon the script. It's not conjecture because there's nothing incomplete about it. It is the poison from the red leech, as we're told by Vastra. That she didn't put the words together in that precise order doesn't mean we guessed at a name. It just means that we applied the rules of English grammar to dialogue actually spoken by a character.
This is clearly not in the same league as, say, flying stingrays, which is simply based upon an observation of a creature. No one calls them a stingray. They just look like them. There, we very much are operating out of a lack of complete information, making the title definitionally conjectural. Here, we're using words that are actually in the script.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:129848
In the series, he is always referred to as Mister Sweet. Obviously, this is a nickname but we do not know any other name for him.
- CzechOut
A redirect at Mister Sweet has been retained. But T:ONE NAME clearly applies in this case. No move is necessary, or will be undertaken.
- RoseTenthFan
I see that I'll have to learn a lot about this Wiki's naming policies.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:130247
In some episodes of the new series, it's said that it's the Time Vortex (The Parting of Ways). Then, in The Doctor's Wife, it's called the Matrix. But in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, it's said that the Eye of Harmony powers the TARDIS.
So, which is it...or, if it is all three, what is the relationship between them?
- SOTO
He also powers it using the Cardiff Rift in TV: Utopia.
The Eye of Harmony was also established as the power source in the 1996 TV Movie.
- Tybort
It's worth pointing out that until the Eye's reappearance in Journey and the lesser reference in Hide, I think it was assumed (and stated on the BBC website?) that temporal rifts (like in Boom Town and Utopia) replaced the Eye of Harmony as the TARDIS needed to refuel on such rifts. Not sure if anything narratively supports this though.
- 63.143.238.98
So what about the Matrix, the "heart and soul of the Tardis" that downloaded into Idris? Or the Time Vortex that Rose and then the Ninth Doctor absorbed from the hatch in the Control Room?
It is implied on different episodes that both of these are power sources for the TARDIS. How are they connected to the Eye of Harmony?
As for the Rift, I thought this was considered an energy source, a place where the TARDIS could go to "recharge", so to speak but wasn't actually powering the TARDIS. A bad analogy might be that the Rift provided energy to the TARDIS like a gas station provides gas to enable cars to move. But gas isn't an engine, it's not the power source, it's just the fuel for the power source.
As for DWU authoritative sources, I'm not sure why the 1996 movie is any more or less authoritative that any other Doctor Who story. I don't think there has been a consistent answer and I was hoping one of the smart Wikia users here would have found a way to link all of these TARDIS power/energy elements together.
- Badwolff
Don't forget they've said it's powered on Artron Energy, too. Consistency, thy name ISN'T Doctor Who.
- 78.128.194.120
63.143.238.98 wrote: So what about the Matrix, the "heart and soul of the Tardis" that downloaded into Idris? Or the Time Vortex that Rose and then the Ninth Doctor absorbed from the hatch in the Control Room?
It is implied on different episodes that both of these are power sources for the TARDIS. How are they connected to the Eye of Harmony?
As for the Rift, I thought this was considered an energy source, a place where the TARDIS could go to "recharge", so to speak but wasn't actually powering the TARDIS. A bad analogy might be that the Rift provided energy to the TARDIS like a gas station provides gas to enable cars to move. But gas isn't an engine, it's not the power source, it's just the fuel for the power source.
As for DWU authoritative sources, I'm not sure why the 1996 movie is any more or less authoritative that any other Doctor Who story. I don't think there has been a consistent answer and I was hoping one of the smart Wikia users here would have found a way to link all of these TARDIS power/energy elements together.
The Eye is not the engine, the engine is the "Heart". I think that the Matrix is something like a computer or something and the eye is a power source. As for the power - you can have more form of power, in the rift it was said the TARDIS harnessed the "chronon energy", the energy of a collapsing star - the eye could not provide this. Maybe the engines need two different types of energy and the time vortex provides the same as the rift, but the rift provides more energy, so the TARDIS recharges quicker than just from the vortex...
- Who222
To begin with what is currently supplying power to the TARDIS is the Eye of Harmony, supposedly revived during the "regeneration" of it (The End of Time / The eleventh hour). Before the TARDIS got your power supply in the "Energy Chronon" cracks ejected through temporary as Cardiff.
Then there is the issue of the engine is the heart of the TARDIS, not the eye. Artron energy addition is not temporary power, but psychic energy, and although sometimes counted been supplied power to the TARDIS, not part of their usual food sources showing that the ship is able to feed on many forms of energy. And last is the Matrix, which is the central computer and the soul of the TARDIS, allowing that actually works.
- Spreee
I don't think it's inconsistent as such, it just hasn't been explained in excruciating detail to us. A lot of it's been left vague presumably because it's assumed to be well outside the realm of what our current human science can explain. (And noone here in the real world knows how to actually build a TARDIS I suspect, so don't expect fully functioning blueprints anytime soon...)
To use an analogy, consider what really does 'power' a car? If you answered "the engine", try taking your battery out and seeing how far you get. If you think it's the battery, try removing the alternator and going for a long drive. And then try using it without a gas tank.
Like a car, there are a lot of different components the TARDIS needs in order to run properly. You can have fun speculating on how the TARDIS works, and by all means do! Just realise that it is indeed speculation on how it all fits together, except for the few bits of information the Doctor has told us while 'dumbing it down' for the people around him.
- Badwolff
Okay, so the Eye is the "heart", the engine is the engine, the Matrix is the "soul" and artron energy is psychic energy. They all sound important by these analogies.
The only element left from my question is the Time Vortex. Yes, I know that the Time Vortex is what the TARDIS travels through in time and space. But Rose absorbed the Time Vortex from a distinct compartment in the TARDIS and through it was able to do as much destruction as the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor! Then, the Ninth Doctor absorbed it from her and put it back into the TARDIS (although it is interesting that this was fatal to him but not to Rose).
- Who222
The Time Vortex is only a power source kind for the TARDIS, nothing else.
- 2.96.205.147
consider the fact that the TARDIS is a living being grown on gallifrey which the time lords used as time machines (solving the built or natural conundrum mentioned in various episodes). the matrix is the mind of the TARDIS entity which as a multidimensional lifeform is capable of experiencing all of time simultaneously (explained in "the doctor's wife" - possibly as the timelords develop similar power by exposure to the untempered schism). the vortex energy used by rose is the energy in the heart of the TARDIS, the multidimensional entity itself allowing whoever looks into it to view all of time as the TARDIS can. the eye of harmony is the singularity of a black hole balanced against gallifrey's mass which powers all timelord technology by distributing its energies evenly, even to the TARDIS (see "the three doctors" and "deadly assassin" for alluded confirmation to this) following gallifrey's destruction the eye would no longer exist being tied to the planets mass and rifts were used to refuel. the eye in "journey to the centre of the TARDIS doesnt fit the scientific description of the original and is possibly the doctor's own creation to avoid going back to the rift to refeul and end up running into jack or other people he has moved on from.
this is an interpretation based on available evidence from the show.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:130330
Does anyone know which is correct Mike Riddell or Mike Ridde? Because we have two articles for what appears to be the same person. He's also credited on some of these articles as Mike Riddel. Any chance someone has the skinny on this so I can correct these?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:130841
I was just watching "Rose" on BBCAmerica and there is a scene before Rose and The Doctor encounter the Nestene Consciousness where the TARDIS lands on a walkway by the Thames and they cross a bridge.
There was a location that looked identical to this in "The Bells of St. John" right before Clara and The Doctor take off on the motorcycle and I was wondering if it was the same spot.
Narratively, it would make sense for the TARDIS to return to places where it had landed before (where it knows it is on dry land, in a safe place, not materializing in the middle of concrete, whatever) but I was wondering if someone was familiar enough with London to know whether this was the same location in Series 1 and Series 7. The episode breakdown isn't specific about this.
- SOTO
By the Thames? The London Bridge?
- SOTO
Actually, scratch that: it's Westminster Bridge.
- SOTO
Westminster Bridge also features in TV: The Dalek Invasion of Earth. Remind me to create that page later.
- Badwolff
Thanks, SOTO! Do you know whether it is on the bridge itself or just a walkway along the river? I swear it looks like the exact same spot in both scenes although I'm sure only a member of the DW production crew or someone who has a lot of local knowledge could probably say for sure.
- CzechOut
Yes, it's Westminster Bridge. But the article would be helped by establishing the name in a narrative. Let's try to get one before we say that the article is "done and dusted". And please try to remember not to start an article about a real world thing without having a clear source for the name, or without admitting in a BTS that we're taking the name from visual inspection. Pretty sure there actually is a name to be had here, though. Might even be on television. Certainly, there's information to be added from Bringing Back the Doctor, which has a lengthy section about that particular part of the Rose shoot.
- SOTO
Also, if you could find an officially released video of the Daleks on Westminster, that'd be great. It's an iconic scene, and it really belongs on the page. That scene has also been recreated multiple times — More Than Thirty Years in the TARDIS in 1993 and Radio Times posters in both 2005 and 2010 — so that would merit a nice, meaty BTS section.
- CzechOut
That's actually gonna be difficult. Officially-released videos for Dalek Invasion of Earth aren't easy to come by. I think there's just the Susan farewell. See, the available videos tend to coincide with DVD releases, and they only started doing the video releases a couple of years ago. Dalek Invasion of Earth release predates the existence of YouTube, so no joy there.
- SOTO
Apparently, though, there was a DVD release back in '03 (according to the story's page, that is). Also, it's a pretty famous scene, but yet I couldn't even find unlicensed videos!
- CzechOut
YouTube wasn't around in 2003. Since Worldwide/2Entertain are using YouTube primarily to promote new DVD releases, they don't have much material up for releases prior to the creation to the ClassicDoctorWho account.
- SOTO
Oh. Right, wasn't thinking. That's... rubbish. Oh well. Scratch the video — I'll just take a screenshot, then.
- Badwolff
It it likely not thought to be an "official source" by this wiki's strict criteria but the Doctor Who transcripts site (http://www.chakoteya.net/doctorwho/) says this:
For Rose: [Westminster] (Nighttime on the north back of the Thames next to the RAF monument.) Dialogue. Then, change of location to [South bank] http://www.chakoteya.net/doctorwho/27-1.htm
The Bells of St. John [South bank] And them mentions them driving across the Westminster bridge. http://www.chakoteya.net/doctorwho/33-7.htm
Even if you accept these transcripts, they don't prove my point that the TARDIS is landing in the same spot. The only thing they agree on is that we see, first, the Doctor & Rose and, later, the Doctor & Clara both cross the Westminster Bridge.
In Rose, they are running across the bridge towards "London Eye, it's on the south bank of the Thames."
For The Bells of St. John, the transcripts only say that the rooftop terrace where they end up after they have crossed the bridge and driven around has "Lovely view of St Paul's Cathedral dome with Tower 42 just beyond it. St Paul's Churchyard?". I don't know where this is and whether this means they had gone from North>South or South>North.
Then, later in the episode when his spoonhead goes to the Shard, the transcript says, "The Doctor is on his motorbike, speeding across a bridge, but not London Bridge, which would have been the quickest way from St Pauls. Instead, it is Westminster Bridge again. They follow his progress via the cameras."
I grew up in San Francisco and any time there was a show set in the city, the location shoots were all wrong...cops would turn from one street on to another when in reality the street with that name was across town. So, the producers more often go with what they want to show visually than being faithful to strict geography.
I'm not sure what this will contribute to what is arguably a minor point but I will say that whoever contributes to the transcript site is very pretty familiar with England or, at least, London and they always include details about local landmarks caught on camera. The characters don't "say" where they are at so short of getting your hands on a shooting or production script, it will have to be a visual identification. I'm sure this has been done with other episodes when they have filmed outside of Cardiff, like when they filmed in NYC's Central Park and Utah.
- CzechOut
Transcripts created by fans are indeed disallowed by this wiki.
- Badwolff
Well, then I guess this makes it impossible to answer this question, short of The Doctor saying, "Didn't we land in this exact same spot when we were battling the Nestene Consciousness?"
- CzechOut
I don't understand exactly what you're trying to prove, I don't think. It sounds like you want evidence that the TARDIS landed in exactly the same spot, rather than just generally landed in the environs of Westminster Bridge. I don't think I understand why such precision would be necessary.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:131363
Why doesn't anyone notice that Madam Vastra and her butler are monsters? The Victorian Age wasn't famous for open liberal attitudes to lesbian alien cannibals!Is it an alternate history?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:131856
I am looking for name like that in doctor who anyone knows of such name?
- SOTO
As far as I'm (as is the wiki) concerned, nothing by the name of "Tikun" or "Tikkun" exists in the DWU.
Why are you asking, by the way? Are you writing fanfic, and want to know if a name's already taken? Some context would really help me answer your question.
- 68.226.217.163
Is there a word that sounds like Tikun in Doctor Who's history?
- 68.226.217.163
Tikun, any name that has TKN in it?
- 68.226.217.163
It is for an article i am writing about doctor who and region i was looking for this is part of religion.
- CzechOut
Hm, interesting challenge. I'll have to dig deep into the texts for you. If, though, you mean something usually spelled Tikkun, then I will say that the biggest connection to Judaism is likely in short stories, which unfortunately I have no ability to search.
Some likely sources are
- The Last Days, which is possibly the most heavily-Jewish story in the whole of Doctor Who history.
- Byzantium!, the most heavily-Christian story in the whole of Doctor Who history, which necessarily has a lot of Jewish content
- Short Trips: Destination Prague, but particularly Life from Lifelessness
I'll take a look around, though, and see if there's a Tikun/Tikkun to be had. I wouldn't rule it out, since there is a Gehenna.
- CzechOut
Not seeing anything in Missing Adventures, Past Doctor Adventures or New Adventures.
- Shambala108
I couldn't find any mention in The Last Days. Also, I skimmed through Short Trips: Destination Prague and didn't see anything there either.
- CzechOut
Ooooh! No Tikun, but there's glorious, rich Jewish imagery in The Broken Man, a great Eleventh Doctor comic story from last year.
- CzechOut
Got one for you if you're just looking for TKN: Tulokon.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:133474
What is the title of the song that plays While the Daleks are being disabled and destroyed? I believe it is a more upbeat rearrangement of All The Strange, Strange Creatures, but I'm not sure.
- CzechOut
Episode name please?
- Tangerineduel
Would it found on the Doctor Who - Series 3 CD which contains the track "All The Strange, Strange Creatures (The Trailer Music)"?
- 216.186.217.21
Series 4. Journey's End. When Ten, Donna, and the second Ten are wrecking havoc with the Daleks' master controls. While the rest other gang are destroying Daleks at there leisure.
CzechOut wrote: Episode name please?
I'm not sure, that's why I'm asking. Although it's unlikely, as the song play in Series 4. It sounds likes "All The Strange, Strange Creatures" but it is much more upbeat and heroic sounding. I basically starts when Donna becomes the Doctor-Donna.Tangerineduel wrote: Would it found on the Doctor Who - Series 3 CD which contains the track "All The Strange, Strange Creatures (The Trailer Music)"?
- SV7
Series 4. Journey's End. When Ten, Donna, and the second Ten are wrecking havoc with the Daleks' master controls. While the rest other gang are destroying Daleks at there leisure.
CzechOut wrote: Episode name please?
I'm not sure, that's why I'm asking. Although it's unlikely, as the song play in Series 4. It sounds likes "All The Strange, Strange Creatures" but it is much more upbeat and heroic sounding. I basically starts when Donna becomes the Doctor-Donna.Tangerineduel wrote: Would it found on the Doctor Who - Series 3 CD which contains the track "All The Strange, Strange Creatures (The Trailer Music)"?
Still, it's fully in Journey's End, and underscores the final moments of Turn Left, so you'd think that it would be on the S4 soundtrack.
Heck, there's even a chance that it could appear on the S7 soundtrack, since it's quoted in The Name of the Doctor, where Clara goes into the Doctor's time stream, when you her as the waitress and the overlooking Ten at the Library. Also, the very, very beginning of the tune proper — the sort of "sprightly piano" bit — is in the cold open when Clara first talks to One, immediately following the rephrase of "This is Gallifrey".
But currently, the only place to get any version of it is the S3 soundtrack — and even that's not actually taken from anywhere but specially arranged and performed for the album.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:133497
I tried very hard to find that Christmas carol that Wilf hears the choir singing in the church dedicated to "the Sainted Physician" at the beginning of The End of Time, but failed. Can someone who's actually Christian detect what song it is?
- Shambala108
Do you have any of the lyrics, even just a phrase? I don't have access to my DVD right now.
- SOTO
I really can't make out any words in it. I was hoping someone could, or figure it out from the tune.
- CzechOut
When in doubt, check our soundtrack pages. They need work, but they do at least contain track listings. It's the opening track on Disc 2 of Doctor Who - Series 4 - The Specials. Assuming you were going to be creating an article soon, I've even redlinked it for you.
On any soundtrack question, it's also a good idea to head over to allmusic.com, which gives you a little, legal snippet of each and every Murray Gold track ever released.
Here's the page for The Specials, where you can clearly identify that We Shall Fare Well is the track.
Of course, it should be pointed out that We Shall Fare Well is a Murray Gold original. It's not a traditional carol, but instead written specifically for The End of Time. So being Christian doesn't really come into being able to identify it.
- CzechOut
By the way, the lyrics are:
- Out of the shadows,
- and into our lives,
- there is always a pathway for fear to arrive.
- But with you in our hearts,
- with you in our lives,
- we shall fare well,
- fare well,
- farewell…
It's the neat bookend to "Vale Decem", really.
- CzechOut
Yanno what, I'll just create the article. :)
- SOTO
Well, it could have been real-world. I'm surprised I didn't think of checking the soundtrack... I guess I just figured it was real-world, and didn't think it would feature.
Thank you for clearing that up. On a related note, there'd be no problem with putting it under category:Christmas carols, would there?
- SOTO
CzechOut wrote: Yanno what, I'll just create the article. :)
Sorry, I just discovered this message after creating the page. Just merge your work with mine, then. Yours is probably better, anyway. In fact, if you could decipher the lyrics, could you add that to the page as well?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:133625
This is a general call out to anyone who knows much about the K9. The actual credits as broadcast on Net 10 and Disney XD do not have a traditional cast list. You get series regulars in the opening titles, and then you get the recurring characters, like June Turner — and maybe the lead guest character — at the end. But our K9 episodes have scores of names on them. Does anyone know where this cast information is coming from? DVD maybe?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:133842
As the page on sonic screwdriver currently stands, it seems to imply that no Doctor Who media at all post-Survival introduced the sonic until the very end of the Seventh Doctor's life in TV: Doctor Who.
However, in at least the audio version of Love and War, (Part One, Track 8, 2:15) the Seventh Doctor opens a door to a Heavenite observatory buried underground with one. Is this a massive factual error and omission made by editors unfamiliar with the NAs, or did Jacqueline Rayner change how the scene played out in the adaptation for Big Finish?
- CzechOut
Our page is clearly wrong. Seven uses a sonic screwdriver in around 15 of the NAs. But it's also used most inconsistently in the NAs.
He tells the Brig, "It's a replacement. I only had time to make a new one very recently," in No Future. But that's NA23, and he's quite unremarkably described as casually looking for it n NA2. Meanwhile, in NA11, he's wondering why he "never got round to building another sonic screwdriver". By NA12, though, the sonic screwdriver is there in full flower, and is even a kind of MacGuffin for a part of the plot of The Pit.
In NA30 there's this notion that he has the sonic back, but only because he got it from the parallel Earth of NA19, even though Blood Heat doesn't describe such a scene, and even though this makes no sense with respect to the televised understanding about the Doctor as having the ability to make sonic screwdrivers at will. (Seriously, why would he need to get a sonic from a world overrun by Silurians, when Eleven pops 'em out of the TARDIS console like toast? Or indeed, why would he need any version of Earth, when NA25 posits that they're perfectly ordinary tools on Mars?) GodEngine, NA51, has yet another notion, suggesting that he got it back because he "sued the Terileptils for criminal damage". And, as if it weren't already an almighty affront to continuity, Lungbarrow — NA 60 — offers up the notion that Romana II is the source of the TVM Seventh Doctor's sonic, gifting him what is ostensibly her model from The Horns of Nimon.
So there's three different "origin stories" for Seven's sonic – never minding the fact that the sonic appeared with little comment in NA37, 43, 44, and 56.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:135193
If a character appears in a New Adventures novel and its prelude (i.e. Love and War vs Prelude Love and War and so forth), would their "first appearance" be the novel or the preview? Is it easy to figure out which of the two were published first, or was it essentially simultaneously?
- CzechOut
Well, yeah, their first appearance is in the prelude. I don't think there's an exception to that.
- Tangerineduel
If they debut in the prelude, then that's where they debuted.
Also, I doubt there's a way to work out which was published first as we only have a cover date for DWM and a month and year for the novels.
- 86.171.106.117
As I recall, the rule in the UK is that the cover date is when it goes *off* the shelves. Does that help?86.171.106.117talk to me 16:29, June 13, 2013 (UTC)
- SOTO
We did know that, and it tells us that the prelude was released on 1 October. All we have for the novel is October. Even if the novel was released on 1 October too, I'd say we should use the prelude. Especially since the novel was more likely released afterwards, I agree with Czech and TD in that they debuted in the prelude.
- CzechOut
Tangerineduel wrote: If they debut in the prelude, then that's where they debuted.
Also, I doubt there's a way to work out which was published first as we only have a cover date for DWM and a month and year for the novels.
Actually, there's a perfectly straightforward way. The preludes tell us. For instance DWM 201's prelude for White Darkness directly tells us that the publication date is 17 June 1993. DWM 203's prelude for Birthright tells us that publication date was the 19 August. And if you do enough random samples of the preludes, what you find out is that the publication date for all of them was the middle Thurdsay of the month (i.e. the Thursday that comes closed to the 20th without going over).
We've actually been terribly lazy about our release dates of novels. Of course novels are released on a specific day. They aren't just released any old day of the month. It takes precision and organisation to release a novel; it must come on a particular day.
Turns out, though, that amazon.co.uk have actually been assiduous about this. They tend to have the correct date. So just click the ISBN on one of our pages, then find the link for amazon.co.uk, and you'll soon be able to compile a list of exact release dates. Remember, though: if you decide to add precise dates, use the new (releases) dab term on your days of the year. So 17 June (releases), not just 17 June.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:135297
Do the Torchwood: Miracle Day episode cast lists say the character names? I seem to recall they didn't, just a long list of "guest starring" and "co-starring" so is there an alternate source for this, just like how The New World, Rendition are derived from somewhere other than on screen?
- CzechOut
Huh? The New World and Rendition cast lists are not derived from on-screen cast lists?
- Tybort
To my recollection, none of Miracle Day's are, and neither are the episode titles.
I'm going by memory, I haven't seen the BBC One versions since they first aired in 2011, but I do recall "guest starrings" appearing onscreen in the American style, only listing the actors names, and the main cast and guest stars weren't repeated in the end credits.
- SOTO
My Netflix version gives me these credits for The New World:
- File:New World credits1.jpg
- File:New World credits2.jpg
- File:New World credits3.jpg
- File:New World credits4.jpg
In text, that's:- Female Hiker - Penny Bunton
- Senior Professor - Ron Butler
- Male Anchor #2 - Jim Castillo
- senior male anchor - Rick Chambers
- Male Nurse - Hymnson Chan
- Archivist - Van Epperson
- TV Journalist - Ellen Fox
- Female Expert - Laura Gardner
- Angry Nurse - Lauri Hendler
- Teenage Girl - Carla Jeffery
- Male Professor - Clint Jung
- Nurse - Charlene Lovings
- Female Anchor #3 - Jessica Matthews
- Senior Guard - Rocky McMurray
- Flight Attendant - Laura Morgan
- Male Hiker - Phil Nice
- Rosita - Bunnie Rivera
- British Professor - Robin Sachs
- Joan Cabina - Heather Ann Smith
- Female Anchor #2 - Jackie Torres
- Female Anchor - Nischelle Turner
- Male anchor - David Grant Wright
- SOTO
So, yes, the Miracle Day episode cast lists say character names.
- SOTO
John Barrowman, Eve Myles, Mekhi Phifer, Alexa Havins, Kai Owen and Bill Pullman made it to the titles sequence, and are omitted at the end.
Here's everything from our cast list that apparently didn't make it to either credits:
- Anwen Williams - Unknown
- Dr. Vera Juarez - Arlene Tur
- Noah Vickers - Paul James
- Alexander Peterssen - Brian Guest
- Geraint Cooper - William Thomas
- Mary Cooper - Sharon Morgan
- Andy Davidson - Tom Price
- Charlotte Wills - Marina Benedict
So, a few guest characters that are in past and/or probably future credits, which would explain how we know their actors.
- Tybort
Okay, turns out I was wrong about co-stars, but as far as I can tell, the problem is still there for the list of GUEST stars at the start of episodes (though probably not The New World, as most of the guests are prominentish CIA people or people associated with Gwen), in particular, members of the Three Families in the second half of the season that I don't recall being given ANY onscreen name.
If this still doesn't make sense, I'll probably be going through the Torchwood credits in the coming weeks to explain my point better.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:135651
What I mean by this is if I buy all three complete seasons/series sets of David Tennant (for example) would I also need to buy the Doctor Who Complete Specials set, or would I already have those in the complete season sets?
- Shambala108
In region 1 the specials are in their own separate set, so Tennant has four box sets. I believe that is also true of regions 2 and 4.
- SOTO
Yes, Regions 1, 2 and 4 have Doctor Who: The Complete Fourth Series and Doctor Who: The Complete Specials.
- Digifiend
They had to do this as Tennant's last five episodes aired after the series 4 boxset was released.
- CzechOut
Well, five, cause there's also the region 1 "Complete Tenth Doctor" thing.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:136501
Can someone outline exactly how the character of Vega Nexos (The Monster of Peladon), their species/planetary demonym, and their home planet is described in The Monster of Peladon?
There's a character in The Bride of Peladon, Elkin, that's said to be from a planet called Vega Nexos, and also, while none of the pages in the title have a {{conjecture}} or {{demonym}} tab the page for Vega Nexos says "presumably the Vegans", as if Vegan (The Monster of Peladon) is conjecture.
Seeing how Bride is a sequel to earlier appearances of Aggedor and Alpha Centauri, I can (even if I shouldn't) assume Elkin is intended to be the same species, especially as both seem to be related to the mining on Peladon.
So, to summarise, is there one instance in Monster where a planet is called Vega and just Vega, and a different instance altogether in Bride where one's called Vega Nexos?
I don't think any real visual description is given in the audio of his, or any alien species' appearance other than, "Is that one of the miners?" "No, look at his eyes. From Vega Nexos, I'd say." (Disc 2, track 14, 0:33)
- Shambala108
I just rewatched this story this week.
The character is often called Vega Nexos, but sometimes Nexos. The planet is Vega, but I don't recall any specific name for their species. He does describe his species as being a race of mining engineers.
The character is credited as Vega Nexos.
As far as I recall, there wasn't any indication that the "Nexos" was part of the planet name. It might be a mistake on the part of the Bride author.
- Tybort
OK. Thanks for the clarification. The eye quote makes me go maybe, but I don't think I can say for sure that narratively, Elkin is a Vegan (The Monster of Peladon). Only that, according to Bride, he's from a planet with the same name as that miner, Vega Nexos (planet) and he's interested in trisilicate. Let's be honest, put next to the birth of the Daleks and the destruction of Skaro, this is far from the most irreconcilable thing in the DWU.
Though in terms of the demonym Vegan, I guess that leaves Legacy and First Frontier to search.
- Shambala108
You may not be able to say Elkin is a Vegan, but you can say he's from Vega, because Monster specifically calls it a planet. Nexos says, "We people of the planet Vega".
I think that Vega is the planet and, this part is just my opinion, the guy is either Nexos (with Vega as an adjective), or he's called Vega Nexos similarly to the Gond name added to the characters in The Krotons.
- Tybort
Umm, no, not if it's consistently "Vega Nexos" referred to as a place (and clearly having nothing to do with the Monster character that died 100 years before the setting) in Bride.
- Tybort
Another quote from Bride. This one's from "Miner (The Bride of Peladon)", referring to a piece of pure trisilicate he's showing to his father whilst Elkin claims he's digging in the wrong place. (Disc 1, Track 7: "Elkin Wants To See You", at 0:53)
"Whyn't you take it back to Expert Elkin, then? Tell him to stick it where the suns don't shine? Or better still, tell him to go back home to Vega Nexos and send up a replacement who knows what he's talking about?"
Yeah, that "go back home" thing cements it. It's probably a mistake on Barnaby's part that he's mixed up planet names and character names, but narratively, within the text of Bride, it just cannot refer to anything other than a planet. A planet with the same name as Vega Nexos (The Monster of Peladon), but still a planet. Or at the very least, an offworld location.
- SOTO
Huh, funny. I just recently watched this serial too.
I just checked with the first scene, and Vega Nexos says:
No sign of a species name, and the fact that he has to go out of his way to say "we people of the planet Vega" rather than "we [species name]" indicates that one will not be given.
So "Vegan" is most definitely conjecture, unless Legacy provides us with a source for the name. I say keep the name, but put {{demonym}}.
And I think we should treat Vega and Vega Nexos as separate planets. They're obviously meant to be the same, but the writer made a mistake and there's no real connection in-narrative.
- Tybort
Agreed on Vega and Vega Nexos (planet). Completely plausible what the intent is from Barnaby Edwards' script, but per rule one of our four little rules, they're separate.
I'm also fine with Vegan (The Monster of Peladon) staying as a page, no matter if it's an actual DWU term in the books or if it's just a demonym for Vega derived from The Monster of Peladon.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:137274
Okay, so just to check, because a story page and in-universe page I've looked up say different things, which episode of the two mentions a carnivorous honey moon, and which mentions a planet on a honeymoon with an asteroid?
- CzechOut
Carol, carnivorous. Death, post-nuptial.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:137442
I recognise "Space Adventure" from various 60s Cybermen episodes, City of Death and the Fourth Doctor's regeneration from Logopolis, but can anyone else who listened to the 2013 Prom recognise the rest of the music the Classic Doctor Who medley used?
- CzechOut
Well, Davison says the composers included were: Tristram Cary, Martin Slavin, Malcolm Clarke, Dudley Simpson, Paddy Kingsland, Peter Howell and Mark Ayres.
So let's go through it:
- Cary - "Dalek Control Room" from The Daleks
- Slavin - "Space Adventure" from Tenth Planet (Well, actually wasn't written for DW, but that's the first place it was used by DW.)
- Clarke - definitely The Sea Devils. But I'll be damned if I know which track. If I didn't know better, I'd say it isn't an actual track, just a mixture of bits of them. It's kinda like "The Prison" , "The Master" and "The Sea Devil" cherry picked for their most interesting sounds. And I have no idea what the orchestral bridge is into "City of Death" suite. It's nothing from Sea Devils.
- Simpson - City of Death. Don't know the name of the piece; not sure it's ever been released. But it's when the Doctor and Romana are walking around Paris.
- Kingsland - "Saying Goodbye" from Logopolis
- Howell - "The Five Doctors" from, um, The Five Doctors, which then goes into what I think is just an adapted version of "Cyber Forces", and then a return to the horns from "Inside the Dark Tower"/"The Five Doctors" (take your pick). The "Howell suite" then ends with a smidge from "The Eye of Orion", oddly underlining Colin Baker's speech.
- Ayres - Who cares? It's McCoy. (But it's "The Final Battle" from Fenric — made to sound very much better than it did originally. It's still bloody awful, though.)
- Tybort
Thank you.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:137629
So I'm watching Robot. The Brig in episode 3 refers to the Think Tank bunker as something "built in the Cold War days". Even if we assume that it's 1980, as Sarah later suggests in Pyramids of Mars, it's still the Cold War. Is this a bit of optimism on Terrance Dicks' part that the Cold War would be over by the 1980s, or do the British narrowly think of the Cold War as something that effectively ended in the 1960s, sometime relatively soon after the Cuban Missile Crisis?
I'm not pointing out a misfit between the real world and the DWU. I'm asking if the British have a different idea of the length of the Cold War, just as Americans do of the two World Wars.
- Doug86
It's not just Robot, but Invasion of the Dinosaurs also mentions a bunker built "back in the Cold War days". It seems that the writers' intent was indeed to imply that the Cold War was over at this point in the UNIT era; however at this time in the real world, Cold War tensions were eased by Nixon's visits to China and Russia, and the nuclear arms limitation treaties such as SALT I. The Doctor Who writers may have extrapolated from these events the eventual end of the Cold War, and had no way of knowing that relations would actually deteriorate a few years later. Doug86 ☎ 04:13, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
- Tybort
If "do the British" means the British in general, and the British in 2013, then no, not to my knowledge. 2010s writers like Mark Gatiss, with the hindsight of the mid-80s escalation, clearly places the end of the war at some point after the near-misses in 1984. I don't know about Dicks or Hulke or the production team in the 70s, mind.
- Digifiend
"Time can be rewritten" - that quote easily takes care of minor discrepancies like those.
- CzechOut
Again, this wasn't an in-universe question. "Time can be rewritten" doesn't apply. I was trying to determine if the actual, real world British definition of the "Cold War" was at variance with the American one, since the UK and the US rarely agree on the length — or indeed importance — of specific international conflicts.
- JagoAndLitefoot
Looks like it's just Dicks's optimism.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:138101
I realise the British Rocket Group website is a nod to the group in The Ambassadors of Death, despite not having watched that story, but can I ask if the Guinevere One mission in The Christmas Invasion is narratively linked to the group either through dialogue or through some level of signing or set dressing?
- CzechOut
Our recent ruling with respect to websites comes into play here, because the BRG is never referred to in the dialogue of TCI, nor is its logo reaaaaaaalllly all that visible. It is only the tie-in website that gives us a solid connection.
The actual, explicit connection to the BRG is not in Ambassadors but really Remembrance of the Daleks, where Alison tells a Rachel Jensen who wishes "Bernard was here" that "British Rocket Group's got its own problems". For this reason, AUDIO: Threshold may potentially have direct information about BRG.
BRG is a nod to Quatermass, where it's more fully known as the British Experimental Rocket Group. There's nothing in Ambassadors that refers to BRG. In fact the word British doesn't, I don't think, even appear at all. All we ever hear is "Britain's Space Control", and that only from the reporter.
- 86.160.62.168
The British Rocket Group (they drop the "Experimental" between "Quatermass 2" and "Qutermass and the Pit") is mentioned in some of the novels, as well. "The Face of the Enemy" and, I think, "The Devil Goblins from Neptune". Professor Bernard [???]ermass appears in "The Dying Days"
- SOTO
Yes, it's mentioned in several novels: The Devil Goblins from Neptune, Loving the Alien, Who Killed Kennedy, The King of Terror, The Face of the Enemy. We could certainly create a proper, sourced page — it'd just take some work to gather everything.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:138978
This may seem dumb, but I'm sure I've heard Nicholas Briggs say he at least did some Dalek and Cyberman voice work on-set, so I have to ask: are out-of-disguise Slitheen voices in Aliens of London, World War Three and so forth ADR work?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:139655
I can't remember the name of the episode where the Doctor had a robotic creature attached to one side of his face and it was making him have split personalities. I can't seem to find the name of it anywhere and it's been bugging me. Thanks :)
- Shambala108
Can you specify which Doctor? That should narrow things down a bit.
- Goodbyelittlepond
It was the 11th.
- Shambala108
At a guess I'd say Nightmare in Silver, but I've only seen that one once.
- Digifiend
Definitely. No other Smith episode matches the description.
- Goodbyelittlepond
Thank you so much :) That was it!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:139952
I just finished watching Journey's End and somewhere in the episode when Donna becomes half Time Lord, the Doctor says that the Ood had predicted "The Doctor Donna". This is confusing me because i do not remember when or where the Ood had predicted this. I'm assuming that it was in the episode Planet of the Ood but i still don't know when they said anything about Donna becoming the Doctor. Someone please help me and clear this up for me.
- Tybort
Pretty sure that, though it never mentions Donna becoming part Time Lord, the Ood DO describe the two as the "Doctor Donna" near the end of Planet.
- 122.60.120.136
That's right. As the Ood are bidding them farewell they say something along the lines of: "Our children will sing songs of praise to the DoctorDonna"
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:140297
in 'rose' she was given a fist full of cash from the store lottery to give to h.p. wilson. what did she do with it?
- SOTO
Well, she didn't have it in her hand by the time she met and ran with the Doctor. I'd have to rewatch to confirm, but I'm pretty sure she dropped it when the Autons began animating. I don't blame her; it must have been a scary sight.
- CzechOut
Well, we don't know what happened to it. She has it in her right hand until the moment where she's backed up against the wall, closing her eyes. After the Doctor grabs her left hand and says, "Run!" we never see it again. There's a pretty big cut between "Run!" and the next scene when she and Nine burst through the doors, so one can imagine that she had time to pocket it, or that she dropped it. There's no evidence to support either. Basically, it's either bad continuity or a bad editing job.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:140952
COMIC: Prisoners of Time spells the centre of the Animus as Carsenome. I'm gathering that Carsinome is a valid variant appearing in either Doctor Who and the Zarbi or Twilight of the Gods (MA novel)?
(The Meet the Doctor article in Doctor Who Annual 2006 mentions the Greater Animus and its Carsenome Walls, but I don't know if that should be tallied up or not.)
- CzechOut
Well, I can only tell you at this point that neither spelling appears in Twilight of the Gods.
- CzechOut
It's not in Doctor Who and the Zarbi, either. There, it's just called the "centre" — the titular object of the final chapter.
- CzechOut
It comes from the script of The Web Planet. It's not surprising it's not in the novelisation cause it's not a Target novelisation.
- CzechOut
I've done a more complete check of Doctor Who and the Zarbi. Yes, it's called the Centre, but it's also more simply called Zarbi Headquarters. As you may know the earliest novelisations took far more liberties with the script than the usual Terrance Dicks Target house style. So you have to really do some digging to find comparable scenes.
There are two major scenes where the Carsinome is discussed in the TV version: one where Vrestin explains it to Ian in episode three and one where Hrostar gives a different account to Barbara in "Crater of Needles". I honestly had a problem finding the comparable Ian/Vrestin scene in the book, but the Hrostar/Barbara scene shows how the book simply ignores the Carsinome:
TV Book Barbara: Why do they make us heap this vegetation into the acid streams? Hrostar: It is the raw material for the Carsinome, where the Zarbi live. Fed into these pools, it is drawn to the centre through underground streams, and as we pour it in, the Carsinome grows and reaches out across Vortis.
Barbara: Well, what lies at the centre?
Hrostar: None of us have ever seen it and lived, but we call it the Animus.
‘Hrostar – what is this work we are doing for?’ Hrostar held up a spar. ‘Raw materials for the Zarbi buildings.’ He tossed an armful of spars into the acid pool and watched the smoke rise. ‘These are drawn into the centre, through underground streams. As we load them in – the building reaches out across Vortis.’
‘This centre – this... building – that’s where the Doctor will be,’ Barbara mused. ‘I’m sure of it.’
‘At the Zarbi Headquarters?’
The whole concept of this living thing that encircles Vortis and forced the Vrestin and his lot to leave the plant and settle on a moon is simply absent from the book. In fact the word moon doesn't appear at all in the book, despite being a fairly integral part of Vrestin's backstory in the serial.
So wherever this alternate spelling of Carsinome is coming from, it's definitely not the novelisation.
- CzechOut
Looking at all the evidence before me at this point, I think the most appropriate spelling is the one given by Prisoners in Time. That's the only narrative source that spells it. I think we should probably retain a redirect from Carsinome — that's probably how anyone going off how it sounds in The Web Planet would have probably guessed it's spelled, but I don't think it should be given in the article as a valid spelling, because there's just no evidence of it in a valid source.
I'm going to check a few more things before making the move though.
- Shambala108
The BBC website for the classic series, although not a valid in-universe source, spells it "Carsenome", if that helps at all.
- CzechOut
It might help. It'd be interesting to see if the captions on the DVD prefer Carsenome too. Not that it matters under policy because Prisoners in Time is still more determinative.
Checked The Lost Ones and The Lair of Zarbi Supremo. Neither of them have anything to say on the matter either.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:140999
Our article currently says, without great attribution, that Stockbridge in in Hampshire. Timewyrm: Revelation puts it in or near Norfolk, saying that it's specifically close to Wroxham and Cheldon Bonniface. Anyone know where it's said that Stockbridge is in Hampshire?
- SOTO
You probably don't remember it, but this diff shows you yourself adding Autumn as the source for it being in Hampshire. I suppose you answered your own question...
It would only take 25 minutes to make sure, if you somehow doubt your own work. The source was removed a few months later by Revan, who probably thought it didn't work visually, here.
- SOTO
After a tiny bit more research, I can confirm that it must come from Autumn, because the diff that added Hampshire to the page also added information from the same story (although for some reason putting the anthology as the source).
- CzechOut
I thought I did but I usually closely site stuff stuff like that. Odd that Revan took that away. Hmmm, well, those are two contradictory sources then. Yet another way the NAs have made a nonsense of the DWU. Seriously, who would ever put Stockbridge as far north as Norfolk? Oddly the same damn author. In all the continuity issues in the whole of DWU history, I wonder how many have been created by the same author? No wonder Cornell is so firm on there not being a canon: he's protecting his writing from … himself.
- JagoAndLitefoot
Perhaps Stockbridge is dimensionally transcendental? :)
- Cult_Of_Skaro
CzechOut wrote: I thought I did but I usually closely site stuff stuff like that. Odd that Revan took that away. Hmmm, well, those are two contradictory sources then. Yet another way the NAs have made a nonsense of the DWU. Seriously, who would ever put Stockbridge as far north as Norfolk? Oddly the same damn author. In all the continuity issues in the whole of DWU history, I wonder how many have been created by the same author? No wonder Cornell is so firm on there not being a canon: he's protecting his writing from … himself.
That amused me greatly. :D Thanks for a good laugh.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:141307
Hello, I really wanna know who john hurt is if Peter is the new doctor? :o
Please go to The Howling to discuss this, where I believe there's already a discussion open on Hurt. In no other namespace is discussion about unreleased stories allowed. Thanks for your understanding.
(Also, for the record, the "Hurt cliffhanger" was at the end of searies 7, not 6.)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:141479
I'm a little confused about the Angels. Its said that they feed off of the days not lived of their victims. At the time of Blink the Doctor is a little over 900 years old, and he mentions that he is 1103 in 'The Impossible Astronaut'. So that right there is about 200 years worth of life, plus whatever is left along his lifetime. So my question is, How can the angels be so weak after sending him back in time and feeding off all of his and Martha's potential days?
- Cult_Of_Skaro
JarlHalt wrote: I'm a little confused about the Angels. Its said that they feed off of the days not lived of their victims. At the time of Blink the Doctor is a little over 900 years old, and he mentions that he is 1103 in 'The Impossible Astronaut'. So that right there is about 200 years worth of life, plus whatever is left along his lifetime. So my question is, How can the angels be so weak after sending him back in time and feeding off all of his and Martha's potential days?
Because in the Doctor's case, he'll live long enough that those days won't be potential? It's an interesting question, and that's my theory.
- Digifiend
And the Angels probably lost that energy when the Tardis rescued them. Or maybe the Tardis made them immune in the first place.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:141916
could someone please tell me (if anyone even knows) what the answers are to this stupid clues
18 down - identity assumed by one of the doctor's own people - m??k
20 across - the doctor assisted in the invasion of the city - t???
- Shambala108
18 down is "Monk"
The other one I can't think of offhand, but I'll keep thinking.
- Shambala108
OK 20 across might be "Troy".
- Corporal Genesis DXTR
Yeah, I'd say "monk", and probably "troy." Don't worry, you're not alone, I always give up on the crossword after getting about 3 answers.
- Shambala108
Don't give up, you can always come here for hints.
- Digifiend
18 down is definitely Monk, as in the Meddling Monk. If 20 across is Troy, that was in The Myth Makers. Both stories are Hartnell's, so I can understand you not knowing the answers.
- SOTO
Welllll, the Ninth Doctor also mentions being present at the fall of Troy in The Unquiet Dead, so both classic- and new-Whovians could potentially figure that one out.
165 (or anyone else with DWM 465), does this work in the puzzle with the other clues?
- SOTO
Welllll, the Ninth Doctor also mentions being present at the fall of Troy in The Unquiet Dead, so both classic- and new-Whovians could potentially figure that one out.
165 (or anyone else with DWM 465), does this work in the puzzle with the other clues?
- SOTO
Ahem. Test.
Welllll, the Ninth Doctor also mentions being present at the fall of Troy in The Unquiet Dead, so both classic- and new-Whovians could potentially figure that one out.
165 (or anyone else with DWM 465), does this work in the puzzle with the other clues?
- SOTO
(trying again in monobook)
Welllll, the Ninth Doctor also mentions being present at the fall of Troy in The Unquiet Dead, so both classic- and new-Whovians could potentially figure that one out.
165 (or anyone else with DWM 465), does this work in the puzzle with the other clues?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:141955
There's a really oblique reference to Lady Diana Spencer and Prince Charles' royal wedding at the start of TV: Father's Day, where Jackie says of her wedding to Peter, "It's good enough for Lady Di."
Is the Princess of Wales or the 1981 Royal Wedding identified as anything more specific in DWU stories? And if not, what's the best way of naming a clear real-world reference with no last name given in Father's Day?
- SOTO
Here's what I got from a quick prose search:
- "This [1973] is an era that hasn't even heard of Princess Diana yet." (PROSE: Verdigris)
- Ian doesn't recognise Diana's name in a magazine, while Vicki laughs at his ignorance in PROSE: Every Day.
- "This [Spiritualist] church had a less than orthodox iconography, come to think of it. They were very fond of the Virgin Mary but also, it seemed, of Princess Diana." (PROSE: The Blue Angel)
- [The Eighth Doctor says,] "I mean you wouldn't expect Queen Victoria and Princess Diana to necessarily hit it off right away. There's always a bit of a generation gap, even with royalty.'
'Royalty?' Fitz asked. And who the hell was Princess Diana? he wondered." (PROSE: The Taking of Planet 5)
That's all I can find from my collection. So no description or full name or anything, but lots of people who've never heard of her.
- SOTO
- "And that was true for the tabloids too. All they wanted was the sex lives of the royals. All right, he admitted it, he’d had a bit of a thing for Princess Di, even cried when she — But that wasn't the point!" (PROSE: The Algebra of Ice)
- "'We met in the crowds around Princess Di's funeral,’ Trix suggested. 'Both cursing them as a bloody nuisance.'
The Doctor gave her a look of grim approval, and set the controls. 'A suitably morbid beginning.'" (PROSE: Timeless)
- Tybort
So at the very least, there's enough to say that she's royalty, even if none of what Smaller's picked up directly links to Charles. No idea if saying Diana, Princess of Wales is a breach of T:NO RW or not. I do understand plenty of political figures and famous people who are only identified by surname are given the full title at least for the sake of being easy to search.
And, apart from maybe the Roman goddess, she is a pretty famous Diana that's widely known as just Diana, especially in the British tabloids (from what I gather. I'm British, but not exactly newspaper reader.) However, it's not really the "every Diana character is her namesake" like with Victoria, so using it as the primary term is probably overstepping it.
- CzechOut
Diana, Princess of Wales is her legal name. If at all possible that'd be the one we'd use. We may have to supplement SOTO's prose search and find some more direct references. Another search to do would be for Charles, to see if he's known as "Prince of Wales". If so, we have evidence that he is married to Diana, and that she's a Princess, so it's not a stretch to say that she's "Princess of Wales". We might also do a search for "Diana Spencer" to see if we get anything there, cause that's a possible good article name too.
- SOTO
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! I've found a goldmine!!
- "Sometimes Yates spent hours looking at the objects: a pair of soccer boots, a mug celebrating the marriage of Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer..." (PROSE: Prisoners of the Sun)
We now have a source for her last name, and for her marriage to Charles.
I've also tried a few different keywords. Again, I do not have a complete collection, but it's pretty expansive by this point. I've even started getting Bennys! Here's some more quotes:
- "The next woman Benny recognised was either Mystic Meg or Lady Di (Benny always got them mixed up)." (PROSE: The Dying Days)
- Evelyn: "But you know what I really want to do? I want to write to John Smith and tell him to watch his health next year, I want to send a message to Lady Di and tell her to never, ever go to Paris again. Or find a way to stop Habyarimana's assassination and save millions and millions of lives being wasted. But I can't." (PROSE: Instruments of Darkness)
- In the real world, she died in Paris. It's not explicitly stated, but it's implied here.
That's only prose. I don't own any comics (because I don't get the magazines), and audios are not exactly searchable. I recall a short reference to a royal wedding in The Eternal Summer, but it was not specified whose. Considering that it must have been between 1950 and 2009, all points to Charles and Diana. But of course, this is real world speculation.
- SOTO
- "Inside of a week [after a tampered-with and therefore lost game of cricket in July 1981], the Queen was injured in an assassination attempt while she was overseeing preparations for Prince Charles's wedding." (PROSE: Graham Dilley Saves the World)
- This gives us a time frame for the wedding.
- Shambala108
re: Graham Dilley Saves the World, that section of the story comes from the altered timeline that was later negated by the Doctor. So I'm not sure if that counts as a date for the restored timeline.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:142128
Does anyone know where the term "time-aware" and the definition at the top of its page comes from in the DWU? From the page, it sounds like maybe The Mysterious Planet, but if it is, why would the editor mention the Time War in the description?
- CzechOut
Well, I'm immediately uncomfortable with the article because "time-aware" is an adjective, and that contravenes T:NAMING. Articles should be about nouns, so at a minimum, the article's name needs to be "time-aware species" or maybe "time-awareness'.
I'm secondarily skeptical because no book written before 2006 contains the phrase.
And finally, it's really just an alternative for time sensitive. I can't really see any meaningful difference between the two terms, and time sensitive is a bit easier to directly cite.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:142559
Can anyone confirm what spelling The Hunt of Doom and Reunion of Fear use for both the bird-like guests in The End of the World (Mr and Mrs Pacoo according to this wiki) and their species? (titled Pakoo, which isn't named in World) Pacoo's page apart from the title uses the "Pakoo" spelling.
- CzechOut
Yeah, this is a bit of a confused mess. Don't know where "Pacoo" came from, but it certainly wasn't Reunion of Fear. They are Mr and Mrs Pakoo of the species called Pakoo. Page for individuals now moved to Pakoo, overwriting the history for the species, the latest version of which is now at Pakoo (species). If admin ever need to see original page history of the page about the species, they'll have to undelete revisions at Pakoo.
Quite the mess. I see no basis for Pacoo, but it is a reasonable spelling, so it's been retained for help in search box.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:142653
some of the episodes have shots of monitors with ascii computer graphics on them. i am trying to discover how these where done, did they use real computers? and if so which ones? thanks.
- CzechOut
It's an interesting question. I dunno off the top of my head, but my guess would be no, since any real computers in the mid-1970s would seemingly have been too expensive. We know they did ultimately use real computers by The Five Doctors — at that point, the Acorn/BBC Micros.
I'll have a look round to see what Andrew Pixley says and report back.
- CzechOut
The answer, according to Andrew Pixley in DWM 296, is that it was an Anchor machine, not a real "computer" as such. Anchor machines were analogue, not digital, devices.
- 106.69.75.58
excellent! thanks very much. the question was prompted
by what i thought was the outline of a commodore pet monitor in one of the episodes, but as the pet didnt come out till late 77 i wondered what they had used.
interesting to know too that they later used acorns and beebs i learnt to code on those as a a kid.
anyway, thanks again, c
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:142660
I can't find the episode where the Doctor runs into these three kids and they start talking about him. It doesn't explain who they are and I wanted to reference it after the latest episode I watched...Any help?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:142918
I have a question about the Binary Heart System. In one story, there is a mention that River Song has a Binary Heart system because of her DNA being manipulated, on Demon's Run, by Madam Kovarian. So on the BH System page, there is no mention of River Song having 2 hearts. Can you confirm she has indeed 2 hearts, or is the info wrong? Here is River song's page: Link titlehttp://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/River_Song
- CzechOut
Could you provide a story name and a time code for the reference to River's alleged binary vascular system? I don't actually recall that. Incidentally, you don't need to work so hard to create a link on a wiki. Just put the page title in square brackets, like this:
[[River Song]]
- 76.186.80.41
The page River Song says she has two hearts, but on the page about Binary Heart Systems, it does not mention that River Song has two hearts. I thought she was Human+ Time Lord having one heart. I'm not sure what you mean by "time code".
- CzechOut
Okay, I thought you were saying she had two hearts and wondering why that wasn't on the binary vascular system page.
As far as I know, you're quite right: no story says specifically anything about her number of hearts. I have therefore removed that bit from the River Song article.
[A time code is a point in the playback of the episode. When you're playing back an episode, just look at your time counter at the moment this statement occurs. Every device which plays episodes of… anything has a time counter.]
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:143016
I vaguely remember something about Zoe saying she never wore dresses and finding out she was in Alice of Aice in Wonderland's dress Is this TV or book or audio?
- Digifiend
It was Peri, not Zoe, and was a comic story called Salad Daze
- CzechOut
Yeah, that's right Digifiend, but in fairness to Paul Benjamin Austin, Peri and Zoe do look an awful lot alike in black and white comics.
Zoe's interesting, though, from a wardrobe perspective, so I'll blather on about that for a second. She often starts out one adventure with the costume from the last, providing a sense of continuity to season 6, just like Barbara and Susan's clothes were in season 1.
And certainly, Zoe has no problem wearing a dress. (Or, really, a mini-skirt.) Basically she alternated between wearing skirts, cat suits and teeny-tiny shorts. She's in skirts in about 50% of her individual episodes. She's in skirts for the whole of The Krotons, The Seeds of Death, and The War Games. Then she's in a skirt for roughly half The Invasion and most of The Dominators.
She's in the catsuit for The Mind Robber and half the The Invasion. In The Wheel in Space and an episode or so of The Dominators and the last scene of War Games, she's in her uniform on the Wheel. But it's pretty form-fiting, much like the catsuit.
It's really only the last two stories where there isn't much in the way of costume continuity.
For Space Pirates, she's in short-shorts, and in War Games, she's clearly been to the TARDIS wardrobe for a more-or-less 20th century skirt and trench coat affair. Her wardrobe is why a lot of stories in other media are set towards the end of season 6. There are more obvious narrative gaps around The Space Pirates.
Overall, though, the impression Zoe gave was that she was almost more "sixties swinger" than even Polly, who actually was a sixties swinger!
- Paul Benjamin Austin
was there a Zoe/Alice in Wonderland thing in the Mind Robber tv story or novel?
- CzechOut
Wow, okay, points to you, sir. From page 7:
- Zoe, however, was far more enthusiastic. As a highly intelligent young scientist from the twenty-first century she was fascinated by anything and everything; space and time travel was an endless adventure in an alien environment, and it appealed to her scientific mind. The Doctor found her quick, analytic intelligence very useful on occasion – with her permanent expression of wide-eyed curiosity, she had about her the air of an Alice in Wonderland, dressed in a seamless, one-piece jump-suit of glittering silver, but she was a brilliant mathematician, capable of dealing with any abstract formulae faster than the most advanced computer.
She was catsuit all the way in the serial. But there are the words "Alice in Wonderland, dressed" all neatly in a row. You could well have had a latent childhood memory of that — but you crucially omitted the comma. See why we have T:COMMA, people? Makes all the difference in the world.
- CzechOut
Wow. Even more to the point from page 44:
Her skirt? But she never wore skirts...
She looked down at herself and caught her breath. For the silver jumpsuit had gone, and in its place was a long dress of pale blue, with a silk sash at her waist, and a full skirt, puffed out by stiff under-petticoats. She was wearing high-buttoned boots and – when she put her hand to her head she found a band of ribbon tying back her long hair.
Countless millions of children on twentieth-century Earth would have known her at once: but in the City where Zoe was born and brought up, no-one had ever heard of Alice in Wonderland.
This was why when she saw a giant mushroom with a caterpillar on top of it, half-hidden in the shadows, she did not feel any sense of recognition. A moment later, there was a flash of white fur and a flustered rabbit scuttered by.
Zoe blinked. Could the white rabbit really have been consulting a pocket-watch? Nonsense – she must be imagining things. Besides, this half-light was very deceptive: it played tricks with your eyes.
If only she had been familiar with the ways of Wonderland, she might have been better prepared for the trap that lay ahead.
Okay, so the book strays massively from the serial. Perhaps we should expect this since the book was written by Peter Ling personally, and we know that there were some heavy rewrites on his work for TV. So, your whole memory is correct.
But Ling didn't know what he was talking about. As demonstrated, Zoe frequently wore skirts. And it contradicts the televised story, so therefore it doesn't count on this wiki.
(My guess is that they couldn't use this on television, because the "Alice in Wonderland skirt" means the Disney version, and they wouldn't have had the money for the rights to that.)
- 146.199.103.55
Well yes, she did frequently wear skirts later on...but at this point, Zoe has only been with the Doctor for 2 full serials. In The Wheel In Space, she wore the catsuit that was her uniform on the Wheel, and then in The Dominators she changed into that high-waisted, translucent dress that I can't help but love, it's quite a silly-looking dress but I feel that it just somehow looks so cute on her!
Zoe even comments at the time to Cully, that it feels "impractical". Perhaps that was her first time wearing a dress, and even then she's wearing it not because she wants to, but because she basically has to, to slip past the security unnoticed and get to a pod. So she would still be thinking to herself "But I never wear dresses!" when she suddenly and inexplicably gets turned into an Alice lookalike in the Mind Robber novel.
As to the differences between the televised serials and their novelisations, I always considered it to be that the novelisations were kind-of how the plot in the TV episodes had been MEANT to go, before re-writes and budget restrictions and special-effects limitations got in the way. After all, it would've meant an extra costume change for Zoe, and taken up more time in-story doing that segment...although they could've just cut down (or removed) the first episode with the TARDIS trapped in the white void. I never felt that that contributed much to the remaining 4 episodes anyway.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:143106
The page for Ru Chan seems to make a lot of leaps in connecting the character (unnamed-in-dialogue) simply called "Ru" in the credits of Aliens of London and "Mrs Chan" mentioned by Rita-Anne in Rise of the Cybermen when she shows concern about Ricky being involved with the Preachers.
Don't pretend you don't know! You've been seen. Mrs Chan told me; driving about all helter-skelter in that van.
Is there anything which connects the brief role in Aliens with the surname "Chan", or is this just a ton of speculation?
- CzechOut
Yeah, you got me. I've looked in the six Ninth Doctor novels for any sort of reference and I'm not seeing it. DWMSE 11 doesn't give much; it says that the Radio Times listings are even more vaguely "Chinese Woman". So I really don't know. But it seems kinda important to figure out, since it has to do with actual PAGENAMEs, so maybe should leave this thread open for a while longer.
- Shambala108
I posted a rename tag on the page and a message on the talk page asking for any information connecting the two names into one character.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:143107
I don't really recall Major Blake or Alex being given full names in The Christmas Invasion. At the very least, it's not in the credits, nor are they introduced by their full names. I have a feeling that Major Blake is only addressed as "Major", but I'd have to watch and listen more thoroughly to be 100%. Is it from elsewhere, or is it an easy-to-miss detail from Invasion?
- CzechOut
Sounds like a UNIT website thing, maybe.
- Tybort
Maybe. A full rewatch didn't give any "Kleins" or "Richards" in dialogue.
- CzechOut
Well, Blake is wearing an ID card. Perhaps at high resolutions you can actually make out the name on it?
- Tybort
I couldn't see anything on it at that distance, at least on Netflix. Maybe the upscaled 1-4 Blu-rays have a better shot?
- CzechOut
There are definitely a few places where he's in tight enough of a shot where Blu-ray should be able to make out the detail on the name. It's not quite good enough for DVD, I don't think, so that still doesn't explain where the name "Richard" came from originally.
- Tybort
Yeah. Doesn't exist. Not even a part of either character's DWBIT card. Not that DWBIT cards would be valid sources, but it's perhaps relevant to point out that if even licensed merch from the time doesn't give Alex' last name or Blake's first, neither is coming from a reputable source.
- Clarification: "Richard" Blake derives from the BBC's UNIT website, and so is disqualified as invalid due to a 2013 forum discussion. All instances of "Richard Blake" and "Alex Klein" have now been moved over to the new PAGENAMEs.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:143196
Is Geoffrey Beevers' birth month and day unknown? When I look him up, I only see his birth year listed as 1941. I was wondering if it had anything to do with the fact it was during WWII or not.
But, sure, if it's true — and it's almost certainly true he was born sometime during World War II — a likely reason for the imprecision is bombing of hospitals. If he were born in London during The Blitz, the likelihood of surviving documents is low.
But we don't know any of that. He could have been born in rural Lancashire for all we know, where the chances of surviving documents are considerably higher.
I'm pretty sure, too, that 1941 was before the time when British law penalised people for not registering child births, which appears to have been an innovation of 1953. Since failure to register wasn't actually punished before that, presumably lots of people didn't register, particularly in cases where it was burdensome to do so.
It's also current British law (since 1953) that it's difficult in most cases to register a birth 3 months after the fact, and practically illegal to do so a year after the birth. Dunno what wartime considerations there were for this rule. No matter where he was born, birth registration would not necessarily have been a high priority for his parents at the time, and it was soon too late to perform the registration anyway.
But, of course, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have known his own birthday. He also could simply be deliberately withholding his birthday from his agent and, consequently, any personal publicity. Add in a lack of public record on the matter, and you've got an essentially insoluble conundrum.
At the end of the day, we just don't know when he was born, so we don't report that Wikipedia year-of-birth until we get some sort of clearly citable information.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:143471
The pages for the graphic novels, The Chains of Olympus and Hunters of the Burning Stone, both contradict themselves by saying the release date is November 2013 in its infobox, but October 2013 in their Notes sections.
Now, I'm not 100%, but I'm guessing that the release dates on amazon.co.uk are a good gauge for when they actually came out. If so, then both are dated 27 September. Seeing as as of now they're available for delivery by Tuesday as well according to Amazon, it's probably not a November release.
- SOTO
Well, if they were already given pages by someone who seems to own them, they're probably not due to be released next month. Since Tuesday's very much in October, it's clearly being released in that month.
Which specific date, however, could do with a bit of research. But for now, we should at least switch it to October. I think it's safe to say at least that.
Since the release date has been stable since 20 Oct 2013, I'm perfectly prepared to accept the amazon.co.uk release date as definitive. Changed the infobox/body text on both pages.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:143783
From the initial edit of the page in 2010, the Skylab page claimed that the Doctor was involved with Skylab's construction, credited to Tooth and Claw. This is not true. At all. I've since fixed it; as the Tenth Doctor recounts that with his help, he brought it back to Earth in 1979. The way he recounts this to Rose at the beginning of Tooth and Claw strongly infers that it's before she enters the TARDIS with the Ninth Doctor.
However, the page also claims that the Tenth Doctor, with a non-recurring companion (so presumably post-Journey's End or at least post-Doomsday) "defeated the Zalphons" who had "used [Skylab] by [them] as a base" in 1979, the year it fell to Earth. This is credited to PROSE: Bennelong Point, from the Doctor Who Storybook 2010.
Now, I've not read Bennelong Point, but are these facts in opposition to one another, or was the Doctor just involved with two different things, with the direction of the debris and stopping whatever the Zalphons did having nothing to do with one another?
I would say that it doesn't outright contradict Tooth and Claw. The Doctor says, "I'm the Doctor. I was parked in orbit myself, watching it all happen."
By "it" he means the Zalphons crashing into Skylab, and Skylab's descent to Earth. If you take that line super-strictly, then I guess you might sense a little contradiction. If he was just watching then he wasn't "helping" Skylab fall. But I think we can safely say that the two things aren't mutually exclusive of each other. He could easily have watched after somehow doing some jiggery-pokery on Skylab.
As for when this story happens, honestly, it could go a lot of places. It could be in the post-Donna gap of its publication. Or it could just as easily be the implied gap between Christmas Invasion and New Earth. (Remember, the TARDIS is in a different place at the beginning of New Earth than it is at the end of Invasion) So it's possible this was an adventure of the very newly-regenerated Ten while Rose was packing. Could literally go anywhere, as the first person limited POV doesn't give us that much of a window into the Doctor.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:143892
Is there any relationship between Tim Latimer from Family of blood & Human Nature and Captain Latimer from The Snowmen?
The Snowmen happens at Christmas 1892. Human Nature is 1913 — that is 21 years later. It's therefore easily suggestible that Captain Latimer could have remarried and had a son in the very late 1890s who could have grown up to be Tim. Or Tim could be a lateral relative, like a nephew or younger cousin.
The possibility of a relationship certainly exists. But it would be pure speculation to assert it as fact.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:143915
Did the Doctor meet George Bernard Shaw before or after Shaw's Comedy play- "Arms and the Man"that debuted at the Avenue Theatre on the 21st of April, 1894? I do not have this story to look at the answer from "The Prose: Gallifreyan Chronicles". This is the page that mentions the Doctor meeting Shaw: [[1]]
There is no mention of Arms and the Man in The Gallifrey Chronicles. However, there is the statement from Marnal: "George Bernard Shaw was first published in 1884."
There's no indication of what that first publication was.
The party the Doctor attended was, according to the Eighth Doctor, "March 1895. Around the time of the McCarthy murder."
But there's absolutely no information that connects this date to any Shaw publication.
The only Shaw publication that gets a mention in the book is, appropriately enough, The Doctor's Dilemma. But it's just a mention.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:144192
could someone please help me with this stupid unsolvable clue -
visited by the doctor in the distant future - ?r???i??
how anyone is supposed solve this i do not know. if the clue mentioned which doctor it was then we might be able to solve this piece of rubbish.
thanks
- Shambala108
How about Frontios? (love that story!)
- POMfannumber1
I'm not sure if I have got that eidton so can't help.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:144361
- Shambala108
One of them needs a merge or delete tag.
- RoseTenthFan
But which is the correct form?
- Eladkse
The DVD subtitles say 'Razbahan', as do the iTunes subtitles.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:144543
I know that it is going to hit Australian cinemas soon... but when does it come out?!?!? Also, what is going to be the title?
- Shambala108
Any mention of the title violates our Spoiler policy.
If someone knows the date, they can post it here, but that is all.
- Digifiend
Grace, it's not the Christmas special that will be in cinemas, it's the episode scheduled for the 50th anniversary, 23rd November. The Christmas special's name isn't known yet, and as Shambala said, I can't post the name of the November episode here. Just put "Doctor Who 50th anniversary episode" into Google and I'm sure the answer will pop up.
Question answered, thread closed.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:144576
I used to wtach the "classic" series on a local tv station and later, cultivated a friendship with a person who worked for this station.
He said they had numerous Dr Who (and other BBC shows)videos on an obsolete video format (its what made the show available widely in N America)
At some point the station upgraded video facilities and cleaned out this old equipment and tapes and he took two of the broadcast players and most of the Dr Who shows as well.
He allowed people to see the shows in his home in Vancouver BC and one of those shows I think was the Shada episode, written by Douglas Adams but never broastcast due to the labor dispute at the BBC.
Most of the tapes had notes on the boxes about broadcast dates (some as many as 10 or more, and from other stations) but this box had no markings.
Was this episode converted, sent out and then axed without being braodcast due to this dispute?
- Tangerineduel
Check out the Shada (TV story)#Story notes and Shada (TV story)#Home video and audio releases sections of the article for more info.
But in short Shada is a Doctor Who story that has had quite a few iterations of it (there's the unfinished story, a webcast, an audio and a novelisation). There was a video release of it in the 90s, it combined the studio and location recordings that were made along with narration done by Tom Baker at the Museum of the Moving Image.
I'm not sure why the station would have these Shada tapes as they it would never have been completed for broadcast (and therefore never have left the BBC Television Centre).
- 50.68.73.199
I think it went out after being finished by managers and then as part of a new contract, one provision was all shows completed this way had to be redone by union people
- CzechOut
Shada, as starring Tom Baker wasn't broadcast anywhere in the world. Broadcast quality tapes certainly weren't sold to US stations or anything like that.
There was a period of time — 1983-86 to be exact — where JNT was showing what he had of Shada to conventions. And there's a story about one of these VHS copies getting stolen from a convention and then maybe passed on through the fan network.
Might your friend got ahold of one of these almost legendary tapes? It's possible. Would he have taken the time to transfer them from VHS to whatever obsolete format these other tapes were in. Possibly — but that likely would have been something he'd have kept quiet from his bosses.
But if I had to take a bet, I'd say you're probably misremembering what happened that night in the home of your friend. The chances of him having raw footage of Shada — cause that's what it would have been — on any kind of broadcast-quality media are remote to say the least.
- OttselSpy25
It wouldn't shock me if an American station had aired Shada without it being well-documented. I know that a recent PBS station in Ohio once aired the special edition of The Five Doctors, but the page claims that it has never aired.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:144794
When a Doctor meets a future version of himself, a matter is: will he know now what he will look like? Will he remember what they have said and done, when the older one meets the younger?
My questions are: in which TV or audio multi-Doctor stories do the youngest Doctors forget their rendez-vous with any older Doctor, and how? In which ones do they remember their future selves, instead?
For example:
- In Time Crash, the Tenth Doctor remembers at least the solution for the problem with his and the Fifth Doctor's TARDISes.
- In The Light at the End, all Doctors seem to forget their adventure (even if after they go and see Bob Dovie, without knowing why).
- CzechOut
- The Five Doctors provides evidence that the first three Doctors remember The Three Doctors.
- There's no evidence that Two forgets having met Six in The Two Doctors. For that matter, there's no strong direct evidence that One, Two and Three forget Five in Five. They seem to leave with their memories intact, but for some reason fans recollect wrongly that all their memories are wiped. (I wonder if that's an impression given by the novelisation; it's certainly nothing to do with the episode as aired.)
- I'm pretty sure Five remembers Seven following the events of Cold Fusion. Could be wrong though.
- Time & Time Again has no direct contact between incarnations that I recall, so there's nothing to forget or remember. However, it's all about healing an alternate reality anyway.
- The Eight Doctors definitely has younger Doctors remembering older Doctors. Notably, Two gets a pep talk from Eight in which Two is convinced to turn himself in to the Time Lords despite every fibre of his being screaming otherwise.
- Happy Deathday i only ambiguously real; it can be interpreted as Izzy Sinclair playing a video game.
- I'm pretty sure all memories are retained at the end of The Sirens of Time — but please don't make me listen to it to find out for sure!
- Zagreus: Seriously, no one, not even the producers, really know what this story was about. I'm not being facetious.
- The Four Doctors - The story depends on the Doctors remembering each other's footsteps, but they don't actually cross paths, as I recall.
Most multi-Doctor stories in other media are more like The Four Doctors than The Three Doctors. That is, they're about multiple Doctors working on the same problem but not directly crossing paths. So of course they actually remember what happened to their past selves. Since their past selves never meet their future selves, there's no memory of their older selves to forget.
The question I'd have is whether there's any story in which the Doctor's memories are clearly and unambiguously stripped from him. I can't think of one, even though I know it's always said by fans that this happens in The Five Doctors.
- Shambala108
There are a bunch of short stories with multiple Doctor interactions, but I can't think of any memory wiping offhand.
I think the Five Doctors thing is trying to explain away Five's apparent non-memory of experiencing these events three times already (and for that matter, Three has gone through them twice already and Two has gone through them one before).
- CzechOut
Shambala108 wrote: I think the Five Doctors thing is trying to explain away Five's apparent non-memory of experiencing these events three times already (and for that matter, Three has gone through them twice already and Two has gone through them one before).
Oh, yeah, I totally accept that argument. Problem is that it's not Dicks who makes it. It's just fans saying that, for instance, Two couldn't logically remember the events of Five Doctors otherwise One would have no cause to act surprised when he: a) meet Susan; b) encounters the TARDIS in the wild, etc.
The word "memory" isn't even in the script, save for the explanation Two gives about what happened to Jamie and Zoe. People who believe that the memories of all he Doctors are wiped are hanging their hat on one word in one sentence:
- Fifth Doctor: All we ask is that we be returned to our proper place in time and space.
What is proper? Does that turn the clock back to a point before these events happened? Or does it mean they go to the point in time and space from which they were plucked, but retain their memories? Other than the fact that Five certainly retains his memories of the event, we just don't know for sure. But I think it's actually implied that they do retain the memories, because of the initial scenes on the Eye of Orion. There, we see the Doctor's memories being physically ripped from him as various lives are snatched from time. So to solve the main point of the plot, the proper place for all these guys would be to have all the memories re-integrated into Five's brain box.
But all we literally get in Five Doctors is this: Borusa plucks them from their time streams and Rassilon plops them all back home — with absolutely zero comment upon characters' respective memories.
I mean obviously the huge hole in Five Doctors is if One knows who Tegan is, why on Earth wouldn't the Fourth Doctor have just put her off the ship instantly? Lord knows, I would have, if I'd gotten a sneak preview like that.
But it more broadly calls into question the Doctor's free will in choosing those particular companions, since Sarah, Tegan, Turlough and the Brig are all in the future relative to the First Doctor. You kinda have to read Five Doctors as essentially forcing future Doctors to pick these people so that he avoids changing his future — not because he actually likes them.
- HarveyWallbanger
CzechOut, thank you so much for your detailed answer (thanks to Shambala too, of course) and your "essay".
You underlined my point: if the Doctor keeps memory of these encounters... goodbye to freewill in choosing companions, goodbye to an actual surprise when he sees his new faces, and so on. What a pity such a topic was never properly addressed and/or prevented (so easily, after the "Jamie&Zoe treatment").
- JagoAndLitefoot
In "The Day of the Doctor" we know that only the Eleventh Doctor remembers.
- HarveyWallbanger
JagoAndLitefoot wrote: In "The Day of the Doctor" we know that only the Eleventh Doctor remembers.
Yes, but the Eleventh remembers something about what he had seen as Tenth: when the fabric of reality is tore, he knows he has to launch the fez and jump in!
However, in the Special the memory matter is well addressed with the War and the Tenth Doctor indeed.
- Rob T Firefly
"The Four Doctors" ends with the earlier Doctors in Eight's TARDIS. They mention the fact that after they part ways and return to their own places in their timeline, only Eight would remember the encounter.
"The Empire of Glass" begins with the Doctor reappearing in his TARDIS after assisting his future selves in "The Three Doctors;" he doesn't remember what happened beyond fading memories of "a dandy and a clown."
- 108.68.114.96
Re: The Two Doctors.
The Light at the End says that both Sixie and Ace remember it, at the very least. Is there any media that says anything similar about Two?
- CzechOut
Why would Ace remember The Two Doctors?
- 86.178.204.38
In "Cold Fusion", the Doctors discuss various reasons why, in the past, they hven't remembered such encounters. It is (presumably on purporse) total gibberish
- JagoAndLitefoot
"Why would Ace remember The Two Doctors?"
I think he meant Peri.
- GusF
Similar to The Empire of Death, it is mentioned in the short story Briefly Noted that the Second Doctor forgot most of the events of The Three Doctors after being returned to his proper time, though he did remember that he lost his recorder.
In The Five Companions, the Fifth Doctor told Ian, Steven, Sara, Polly and Nyssa that their memories of visiting the Death Zone will probably fade with time so the same is presumably true of the earlier Doctors and the companions in The Five Doctors. It would also explain why Sarah Jane doesn't remember the events of that story in School Reunion.
- SOTO
86.178.204.38 wrote: In "Cold Fusion", the Doctors discuss various reasons why, in the past, they hven't remembered such encounters. It is (presumably on purporse) total gibberish
Could you give me a page number? I'd be interested to read said "gibberish". Maybe I can make sense of it.
- CzechOut
Ultimately though, Seven says that he does remember events, and indeed has enough knowledge of the past to arrange for Five to be knocked out because he remembers having been knocked out. Cold Fusion is really, ultimately, about Five being manipulated by Seven.
[The fifth Doctor said:] ‘You do remember. You’ve remembered all along.’
The Doctor smiled enigmatically and tapped the side of his nose.
At the pre-arranged signal, Forrester knocked out the fifth Doctor with a swift blow to the back of the head. The seventh Doctor bent over his past self, but rubbed his own skull. ‘A palpable hit,’ he said. Cwej was looking bewildered.
‘Sorry,’ Roz said, biting her lip, ‘I wasn’t sure whether you still wanted me to –’
‘Not at all,’ the Doctor replied quickly. ‘I don’t remember feeling a thing.’ He looked down at his prone former self. ‘I think we’d better leave, though.’
- Tangerineduel
Zagreus features the actors who played the Doctor (and companions) in situations generated by the Matrix / the TARDIS playing different roles from what they originally played portraying occurrences from the real universe in a meta-reality to help the Doctor understand the altered universe and Rassilon's role with the Divergents. Simple and something not to worry about too much.
- 86.178.206.125
SmallerOnTheOutside wrote:
86.178.204.38 wrote: In "Cold Fusion", the Doctors discuss various reasons why, in the past, they hven't remembered such encounters. It is (presumably on purporse) total gibberish
Could you give me a page number? I'd be interested to read said "gibberish". Maybe I can make sense of it.
About two or three pages from the end, so far as I can remember86.178.206.125talk to me 16:33, December 1, 2013 (UTC)
- SOTO
"There's something I don't understand," Cwej said.
"Hmmm?"
"Well, if he’s your future self, why don't you remember all this from first time round?"
"Does everything have to have a reason?" Forrester asked. "Perhaps it's magic."
"No, no," the fifth Doctor said, "the rules of time travel are very precise, and Mr Cwej here has a good point. Now, on both occasions that we met Omega, that was straightforward Blinovitch Conservation."
"That was true all three times, yes, but it doesn't apply here," the other Doctor noted from underneath the console.
"Yes, yes, I know that. Now, Zodin erased our brains with mind rubbers."
"I remember it well."
"But that hasn't happened this time? The crashed TARDIS might have had misphased Relativity Displacers."
"It might," the seventh Doctor conceded, "but it didn't."
"Tachyon Backflush?" the fifth Doctor suggested. Chris sniggered. "Sorry – it's just that it sounds rude.’ Forrester shook her head disbelievingly. Her Doctor stood, brushing himself off and taking his umbrella back from his past self.
The fifth Doctor straightened. "There is another possibility."
"Go on."
"You do remember. You've remembered all along."So, as Czech pointed out, this is very much a Time Crash in that no memory loss occurs. Memory loss is not in fact an automatic process every time different incarnations meet, according to this book. Instead, it's very much dependant on the situation, and each meeting either has a different reason for the loss of memory, or memory is retained.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:144871
A page was created for this species with no sources. Could someone verify whether it is a part of the DWU?
- JagoAndLitefoot
They're from AUDIO: Lords of the Red Planet. Sorry, I just added the source.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:145603
I was wondering about each planet's level and a description of the levels.
- Shambala108
Can you be more specific?
- 65.175.232.112
Sure. I want to know about the different levels a planet can be. For example, Gallifrey is a level 6 planet and Earth is level 5. Thanks for helping to answer my question Shambala108.
- Shambala108
We have articles for Level 2 planet, Level 5 planet and Level 6 planet. I'm not familiar with the story in question, but I think these articles cover pretty much all we know about the different levels.
- 65.175.232.112
Ok, thanks for helping.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:146275
Are there any official plans to release the specials on any home media? I missed the 2013 special and I'd like to see it.
- CzechOut
Don't think so. It's pretty widely available in the week or so following broadcast, but I've never seen anything more than clips available this distant from the event.
Pretty sure they just don't have the rights for a home media release.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:146286
I've watched the episode recently, but I don't have it on hand to check. In An Unearthly Child, does anything from Ian's description of John Smith of John Smith and the Common Men imply that Chris Waites is another pseudonym rather than his real name, or is this a discrepancy Time and Relative created? I definitely don't recall Child saying the word "Aubrey"...
- GusF
Ian describes him as "the Honourable Aubrey Waites" which suggests that that is his real name - and that he's part of an aristocratic family - which would imply that "Chris Waites" is another pseudonym.
- CzechOut
I don't see how aristocracy is implied. I thought he was being ironic or just "grand" in his use of "honourable".
- GusF
Well, I took it literally but it's a bit unclear either way. The use of "the Honourable" in the UK applies to sons and daughters of viscounts and barons and the younger sons of earls so that's why I thought that he might be an aristocrat who didn't use his title because he thought that it'd make him look uncool. Like Jeremy Clyde didn't publicise the fact that he was the then Duke of Wellington's grandson when he started his pop career.
- CzechOut
Yeah, that's reasonable. I just think Russell puts enough ham on the plate that it's hard to take him seriously. Intonation and inference are always tricky things, though. Wonder if it's any clearer on the pilot episode take.
- CzechOut
But back to the original question. AUC does actually use the word Aubrey:
- Ian: John Smith is the stage name for the honourable Aubrey Waites. He started his career as Chris Waites and the Carollers, didn't he, Susan?
So, yah, Chris Waites is definitely another stage name.
- Tybort
OK. Recall the "honourable", but not the "Aubrey". Not sure why.
- JagoAndLitefoot
"I just think Russell puts enough ham on the plate that it's hard to take him seriously"
I think he's just making fun of the fact that an aristocrat is pretending to be a "common man" using a more common name as a pseudonym.
- GusF
I took the same interpretation of it as JagoandLitefoot.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:146295
Am I being thick, or is there not a cover date on the 50th anniversary issue of Doctor Who Magazine, issue 467? I think the place where you normally find it reads "50th Anniversary Souvenir Edition".
Nearest I can find is "Published November 2013" on page 4.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:147235
What is the brand and make of wrist watch worn by Christopher Eccleston, the 9th Doctor? If any one can properly answer, it would have to be Lucinda Wright, who designed the costume. I have heard much speculation, but have never seen a clear picture of the face so I can make it out.
- CzechOut
Now that's a properly obscure question. It might not even be Lucinda Wright who could help ya; it might be an Eccleston-owned watch.
- Digifiend
Just checked the start of The Christmas Invasion, and they seem to have been careful to ensure that you can't see the Doctor's wrist. Probably because he wasn't wearing the watch. Makes sense that Tennant couldn't wear it if it belonged to Eccleston.
But it's safe to assume that it's what's called a "tank watch", so named because tank drivers used to wear them in World War I and II. Certainly looks like either a Rolex or a Cartier. JFK famously used to wear a Cartier version. I can't quite make out the brand name, but I think it's Rolex because there don't seem to be enough letters for it to be Cartier. Also, Cartier fonts for the roman numerals tend to be much heavier than what appears to be the case in POTW. Regardless of manufacturer, you'd definitely call that a "tank watch" — which seems thoroughly appropriate for the Doctor born at the end of war.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:148007
There was an episode of the new series, or perhaps a prequel or mini-episode, in which a new-ish companion is aboard the Tardis and accesses a visual display of all the Doctor's previous companions. She notices and says something to the Doctor about the fact that most of the companions were women. I can't remember which Doctor, which companion, or which episode. Can someone remind me?
- Shambala108
It was the Eleventh Doctor and Amy, early in series 5, on one of the Meanwhile in the TARDIS (TV story) segments that I believe were only on the DVDs, but never aired on television.
- Digifiend
It also happened with Clara, who commented about Amy's legs.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:148256
Does anyone know where the carrionite is in the monster hunt in the 50th anniversary annual?! My nephew got it for Christmas and we've found all the rest, can't find that one anywhere...
- Digifiend
Does it not show the solution to that puzzle later in the book?
- 31.54.132.193
No I don't think so... we can't see a solution anywhere! Thanks for replying though :)
- 77.97.206.163
That's the one we can't find either, been back and forward, used a torch and magnifying glass, did you find it?
- 222.154.154.133
WE found him. Keep looking.
- 78.145.176.247
i've looked all through the book really carefully but can't fine it either, where is it?!
- 81.155.0.230
Where is it?
- 92.237.45.115
I am 99% sure its not in there, I have had multiple people search the book front to back.
- 81.107.76.212
Is it a full figure or just the head?
- 2.103.107.139
It's not there, if people know please say to save my sanity
- 90.195.177.57
We are still looking too
- POMfannumber1
Can't find any of them.
- 85.241.155.231
we looked loads too ..going insane where is the witch ..please say which page no if you find it ...
- POMfannumber1
I just gave up.
- CzechOut
Alright guys. This has gone on for almost three months. For the love of all which is holy: scan this damn thing and post it here so that we can all take a look at it and put you out of your misery.
- POMfannumber1
Good idea!
- 86.0.144.162
I can't find the zygon or empty child as well
- 82.69.99.77
Can someone give a clue as to where to find that Carrionite!?. It's the only one I haven't found and i've looked in all the unlikely places in the annual but no traces of it anywhere!
- 90.217.22.103
We can't find the carrionite either. Can anyone tell me pl?
- 82.3.245.124
i cant find it either gone mad looking!!!!!
- 82.3.245.124
arghh! cant find it anywhere
- 58.169.9.87
has anyone found it
- POMfannumber1
No.
- 98.117.67.53
We can not find the Empty Child, Empress of the Racnoss, Zygon, or the carrionite. Any clues?
- 98.117.67.53
98.117.67.53 wrote: We can not find the Empty Child, Empress of the Racnoss, Zygon, or the carrionite. Any clues?
We found the empty child (in the "0" of the "50" maze on page 22) and the empress of the Racnoss (above the "T" of TARDIS on page 58). Any help for the others?
- 78.247.238.115
Zygon is well-camouflaged. However I don't beleive the Carrionite is there.
- Digifiend
Most of us are in no position to help unless somebody does this. Let us have a look ASAP, as otherwise I won't be surprised if CzechOut or another administrator closes this thread soon.
CzechOut wrote: Alright guys. This has gone on for almost three months. For the love of all which is holy: scan this damn thing and post it here so that we can all take a look at it and put you out of your misery.
- POMfannumber1
This has been too long. I'm not going to bother finding them.
- 86.139.17.46
empty child on weeping angel page in between the second part of maze
- 86.139.17.46
emperess on jouney to center o tardis in top left page
- 86.139.17.46
zygon(is that the one with red suckers)if soo then on a pic of clara and matt smith
- 92.17.248.49
I can not find the carrionite. PLEASE SAY PAGE NUMBER!!!???
- 92.25.235.98
WHERE IS IT
- 92.25.235.98
At least tell us the page number. Then we can find it.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:148435
I am confused about the story numbering. I love using tardis wikia to help me organize my doctor who television information. Often the story numbers don't jive with other websites, but I tend to accept them here as accurate. But recently one thing has me confused. There is a TV story numbered 238 (The Name of the Doctor) and 239 (Day of the Doctor) and 241 (Time of the Doctor) but no 240?
The list on wikipedia shows 239 as Name of the Doctor, 240 as Day of the Doctor, and 241 as Time of the Doctor.
It seems wikipedia started differing back at story 219 which it calls Let's kill Hitler, which tardis wikia lists as 218b.
So is there an error or is it just myself that is in error?
Thanks
- Digifiend
Sounds like Tardis has Let's Kill Hitler down as the second part of a two-parter (part 1 being A Good Man Goes to War), whereas Wikipedia counts it as a unrelated episode. The two episodes both relate to the origins of River Song.
- CzechOut
I'm not a particular fan of numbering, because it always produces disagreement. We waste a lot of time on numbers like this when really we could be writing articles about truly helpful, meaningful things. There are so many meaty subjects that have not been yet tackled by this wiki that issues like this seem truly unimportant.
As far as I know there is no truly definitive source on story numbering, so I dunno the answer to your question.
- Wholady
Thanks for answering, both of you.
Well, it may not be important but the stories ARE numbered, and there appears to be a missing number 240. So whoever numbers them may want to know this. I'm not as concerned about the discrepancies, I do understand about two parters, But still, where /what is number 240?
- Tangerineduel
I seem to recall this was discussed a long time ago. I've found it it's in the old forums Forum:Story Numbering.
As CzechOut alludes to it's complicated and there's a lot of disagreement. Some of the problems I'll attempt to summarise.
At the moment Shada (TV story) still doesn't have a story number. With The Leisure Hive (TV story) being 109.
If you look at the List of Doctor Who television stories list it becomes clearer and more complicated.
Shada isn't the only issue in this list, not are the '2 parters that aren't' in the new series. There's also The Trial of a Time Lord which is counted as one story in that list, but treated as 4 stories.
But, if we look at our list we have 156 stories from the 63-89/96 Doctor Who. Plus 104 post-2005 stories. Which results in a total of 260.
Which isn't quite correct. In that list The End of Time (TV story) is counted as two stories but covered as 1.
So that brings the list down to 103 NewWho stories and 156 ClassicWho stories. So we're now at 259 stories.
Wikipedia's list of stories bunches up a lot of 2 parter stories and counts them as one.
Our list of DW TV stories counts them as single stories, something I think the infoboxes should reflect. They should be working with our own list. I'm not sure where this "b" numbering is coming from.
- Wholady
@ Tangerineduel yes, I see that, You make a good deal of sense. Because of this, if I choose to use numbers myself, I have to pick one source and stay with their numbers.
But it still doesn't answer where is Number 240? The tardis wikia skips from 239 to 241. There is no listing yet for a 242, since 241 was the last televised story to date. 239 was the 50th anniversary special (which as a special should it have been given a story #? but I digress), and then 241 was the Christmas special. SO what happened to 240?
- SOTO
Then Time is 240. 241 might have been a typo. Sure, there may be other problems that mean the whole system needs to be revised, but, with the current system in place, 239 is Day and 240 is Time.
- CzechOut
There. Changed. Time is now 240. Frankly, though, I dunno if that actually settles anything. Should something like Night go without a story number. It's a hugely important story, even if it's only 8 minutes long. Why doesn't it "deserve" a story number? I dunno. It's all arbitrary, but maybe one day we just need to list them all and create our own numbering system.
If, that is, we could ever get editors to agree....
- Wholady
How about that? Time is now labeled as 240 on the TV Story page. :-)
but yes czechOut, Night did seem to me to be an integral part of that story arc. Since other mini episodes were not numbered before I guess it was considered as a mini episode not to be numbered.
For my own purposes I have numbered Shada as 108b, since it followed Horns of Nimon in production order. So I expect I will number Night of the Doctor 238b.
Thank you all for your replies. It was perhaps a small issue, but sometimes small issues need a looksee. :)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:149156
what is the last monster in the list of monsters for the monster hunt in the doctor who 50th anniversary annual
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:149558
What, if anything, does the Shroud of Sorrow say about the Brigadier's funeral, and those who attended it?
Specifically, Eleventh Doctor used to say:
- After leaving Dorium, the Doctor attended the Brigadier's funeral, as did all of his other incarnations. He was particularly saddened by the fact that the moment of his old friend's passing was an event that took place during his incarnation's time on Earth, and he never properly said goodbye before it was too late.(PROSE: The Gift, Shroud of Sorrow)
Obviously, The Gift info is gone. Big Finish are not a valid source on BBC Wales DW. But what part of that statement comes from Shroud? I'm positive the first clause is complete nonsense. There's probably nothing that suggests funeral attendance "after leaving Dorium". I'm guessing that the second sentence could be completely from Shroud, but the implication of the paragraph as a whole is that Shroud conveys info about the funeral.
Anyone with an actual copy of this work would be useful now.
- PicassoAndPringles
Here is the relevant bit about the Brig's funeral.
The Doctor’s tears were flowing freely now, his back pressed against the open doorway of the TARDIS. He could feel the Shroud’s tentacles inside his mind, feeding off his grief, and the food was plentiful. And it was time for one last push. Time for him to relive a fresh memory. Time for him to visit one final place in his mind. One he’d been avoiding all these months.
The Doctor closed his eyes.
Flash!
He was standing near the gates of a different graveyard, the gentle summer breeze ruffling his thick hair and pulling at the edges of his bow tie. A few hundred yards ahead, a large crowd gathered together – a mixture of civilians and UNIT personnel.
A man in uniform stepped up to place a folded flag on the polished surface of an oak coffin. Like almost everyone else there, he had aged since the Doctor had last seen him.
John Benton saluted the coffin, then turned to the UNIT soldiers standing beside the grave. ‘Rifle party!’ he commanded. ‘Five rounds rapid.’
Crack! The first volley sent a flock of birds flapping up into the air. A man in a crumpled suit rested on the question mark handle of his umbrella and watched them disappear.
Crack! Liz Shaw buried her face against the shoulder of a man in a velvet jacket and an opera cape.
Crack! Mike Yates exchanged a sad glance with a small, tousled-haired fellow in an over-sized fur coat.
Crack! A man in a coat of rainbow colours wrapped an arm around Jo Grant.
Crack! A short-haired man lowered his head and pushed his hands into the pockets of his leather jacket.
Slowly, the coffin lowered into its final resting place.
Flash!
Several years had passed, and leaves now tumbled from the branches hanging over the cemetery. The mourners and their extravagant floral tributes were long gone. In their place, standing to attention on either side of the marble headstone, were bunches of flowers in more permanent glazed pots.
The rain pattered down, leaving the ground slippery and soft underfoot. Eventually, the Doctor came out from the shelter of the trees.
He slowly approached the grave, raindrops dripping from his hair and down his cheeks. He stood and read the name carved into the marble: Brigadier Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart.
Quietly, he saluted.
So that puts Doctors Eleven, Seven, Three, Two, Six, and Nine at the funeral.
- CzechOut
Thanks for the speedy reply. Not sure I can agree it definitely places Nine there. Leather with short hair could be Eight at the time of Dark Eyes, or sometime after The Flood — both of which precede the publication of this book.
And is there anything about the story which clearly places it after The Wedding of River Song but before The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe or Asylum of the Daleks? In other words, is there support for: "After leaving Dorium, the Doctor attended the Brigadier's funeral..."
- PicassoAndPringles
The Doctor is traveling with Clara, and he says he's been avoiding the memory "all these months." Also, the other memories are all in chronological order and the one before this one was the Ponds being sent back in time in The Angels Take Manhattan, placing it some time after that.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:149559
Just to check, does The Eternity Clock in any way mention the Brig's funeral? Our article asserted this, but it seems much more likely that this was an editor's attempt to create linguistic flow with the paragraph above it, rather than genuine, citable information.
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:149743
If she is the daughter of Amy and Rory, and Rory had never existed, and Amy and Rory had never married, then River shouldn't have existed. How then did she exist even at the beginning, even if it was explained how everyone existed towards the end.
- SOTO
Nowhere in The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang do Amy and Rory never exist, nor is there a timeline where they don't marry. It was the Doctor who was erased from existence in that two-parter, and even that was quite temporary. Rory was erased in Cold Blood, but we don't actually see River again anyway until Rory comes back. If you're referring to the entire universe getting erased, she was saved by the TARDIS, which put her in a time loop until the Doctor came to save her. Then she and the others were preserved as, as the Doctor explains, "the eye of the storm [...] We're just the last light to go out."
In any case, answering your question beyond what the stories say would necessitate speculation, which we don't allow in our forums (fora?).
- August Booth
If the Doctor was erased from existence, what happened to Rose, Martha, Donna, and all of the other companions? Would it be like Donna's world, or would the aliens not have come?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:149830
The article titled "Allons-y" contains the information when the Doctor used this phrase the last time. I was wondering if anyone knew when he said it first, and if they could add this information to the article. Thank you!
- Shambala108
I believe it was Army of Ghosts, at least as far as TV appearances go, but someone will have to check me on that.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:149851
here we go again with unsolvable rubbish crossword clues.
5 across - visited by the first, sixth and seventh doctors (7,4)
answer - t-t-e-- -a--
someone please help
thanks
- 165.228.133.90
totter's lane
which i should have known without having to put the question on the forum.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:149924
During the Tom Baker incarnation a passing reference to Rassilon commanding a fleet of Bow Ships in one of the wars. I've not found a mention of bow ships in the Data Core.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:150249
Can anyone help me confirm that American actor Stubby Kaye was the first American actor to guest-star in Classic Who? He played 1960s CIA agent Weismuller in the 1987 7th Doctor serial "Delta and the Bannermen". However, the actor's entry here on this wiki just says he was one of the first, not the very first, and there's no indication as to whether or not actor Morgan K. Deare, who played the other CIA agent in Bannermen, is American also (imdb.com doesn't say either, and wikipedia has no entry on Deare).
So, was it Kaye, or did someone come before even him?
- CzechOut
We can't know for sure because we don't have the passports of every single actor who appeared on the show. However, my money would be on John Brandon.
- CzechOut
I just checked against a copy of "Wonder Woman Meets Baroness Von Gunther", in which someone named John Brandon is playing a character called Sgt. Stransky. It's absolutely the same guy who was in The Tenth Planet, episode 1, albeit about 10 years older. Given the fact that IMDb has him also being tons of significant American shows of the 1960s-2000s — from Hazel to Charmed he's almost certainly American. So my money's definitely on John Brandon being the first confirmable American in Doctor Who, though there's definitely the possibility that someone before him could have had American citizenship by virtue of parentage or naturalisation or something like that.
- Amorkuz
If the dates of birth/death of John Brandon in IMDB are compared to the information from this obituary, it is almost certain that this is the same person. The obituary puts his birthplace as New York. Thus, he is American.
While it is unlikely that public records could definitively prove someone is the first American actor in Doctor Who, it seems fairly certain that the OP's question can be answered in the negative: Stubby Kaye was not the first American actor.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:150354
Can I get a list of Doctor-light episodes? I can't seem to find a list anywhere.
- Shambala108
They can be found at Doctor-lite.
- YazzyDream
Oh wow. Ok. Google, you've failed me.
Thanks, Shambala!
- SOTO
There is a search bar on the top right (or on the top under the logo if you're on a smaller screen or a mobile device), so if you're ever looking for anything DWU-related, Special:Search is your best bet.
- Digifiend
Doesn't help when you spell it wrong. If Yazzydream searched for Doctor-light, it wouldn't bring up Doctor-lite. I know, I just checked.
- CzechOut
But it does make sense that Doctor-light should be searchable. So now it is. This is a weird case, though, where the correct spelling of the word light is not actually the correct spelling of the term. As propagated by DWM, the term is Doctor-lite, so the fact that I've now redirected at Doctor-light is only to help people search for the term. If used in articles, the term should be spelled Doctor-lite.
- YazzyDream
Cool! I'm sure it'll help others in the future too. :>
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:151772
Anyone figured out between which episodes the new 3rd Doctor novel Harvest of Time takes place? I'm guessing it's sometime after The Dæmons and before The Sea Devils but when exactly? I think the Doctor mentions the Daleks so possibly between Day of the Daleks and The Curse of Peladon?
- Lego Whovian
I would say that it's after The Curse of Peladon.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:152291
Help please Im trying to find out and cant remember which Torchwood episodes have one of the character stab by a metal pole or object in the right side of a males chest?
Cheers:O)
- SOTO
- 2.30.154.226
Yes I remember that one now but this was from the first two series???
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:152548
Since we know from the Rani doing it to the Master in The Mark of the Rani that male Time Lords have a "soft, dangly, collection of objects" in their trousers, why hasn't anyone tried to stop the Doctor by kicking or kneeing him in the crotch?
And Kadiatu Lethbridge-Stewart does use the weak spot against the Seventh Doctor. Probably in Transit or maybe in Set Piece. Incidentally it was the Third Doctor that showed the Brigadier where this collection of nerves was in case the Brig needed to stop the Master.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:153377
here we go again with the crap crossword clues.
how anyone is supposed to be able to solve this i have know idea.
if they would just make the damn clues easier then there would not be a problem.
2 down - the doctor said this was his excuse for investigating the message that was being broadcast throughout time and space (1,1,1)
answer - o??
- 165.228.133.90
hi
know need for any replies to my above discussion because i have eventually found the answer myself. i found out which story it was from by googling the clue - the time of the doctor - but i still couldn't find the answer though until i watched the first few minutes of the story itself. why i couldn't find the answer to this clue on the internet like i have with every other clue in all the other doctor who crosswords i have done over the years i have no idea,it makes no sense to me whatsoever.
but anyway the answer for those who want to know,is - O.C.D.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:153517
I'm not sure if this is in the right place, sorry if it's not
In "Power of Three" it's said that Amy married King Henry VII of England, and on her infobox it says her "in laws" are the "Eleventh Doctor" and "Rory's parents", shouldn't the Tenth Doctor be added to the in-laws section as revealed in "The End of Time" "The Beast Below" "Amy's Choice" and "Day of the Doctor" that Ten married Elizabeth I, daughter of Henry VIII.
- SOTO
That's stretching it a bit. And anyway, do we have a DWU source for the relationship between Henry VII and Elizabeth? If not, T:NO RW.
- Sabovia
It's mentioned on the article that Ten is the son-in-law of Amy Pond anyway, he's just not on the "in laws" part of the infobox.
I know that the DWU is not the same universe we are living in (unfortunately) but I doubt that Liz 1 isn't the daughter of Henry 8.
- SOTO
We cannot assume something to be true in the DWU just because it is so in the real world. I would not be surprised if the DWU does tell us that — in fact, a quick search tells me that our Elizabeth I articles asserts that AUDIO: Recorded Time tells us that he's her father.
Still, I'd still say no to adding him to the infobox, not just because both marriages are fairly dubious, but also because the link is never made. Wedding has her tell us she's the Doctor's mother-in-law. To make the same connection between her and Ten, we'd have to use three separate, unrelated sources — Day, where Ten marries Elizabeth, TPOT, where Amy marries Henry, and Recorded Time, where we're told Elizabeth is Henry's daughter. None of these three stories even mention another.
- Sabovia
I think ten should be added as... well.. Ten is Amy's son in law.
- Sabovia
I thought TARDIS was meant to supply all in-universe canon of Doctor Who, I don't think not adding Ten to the infobox because "the stories don't connect" is a valid reason, but that's my opinion
- SOTO
Okay, maybe that was misphrased. We could make that connection in the article, but the purpose of an infobox is to be a brief and concise overview of the most important information in the article. Rory Williams or Eleven are crucial to her life, and thus they should most definitely be featured in the infobox. She's never even met Ten, nor has she met Elizabeth I, and even her marriage to Henry VII was hardly a long-term relationship, so I don't think it's really information worthy of being highlighted in an infobox.
Our goal is not to make infoboxes as huge and over-full as possible, and fill in every possible parameter with every possible piece of info. It is no emergency that "in-laws" be a complete list.
- FemaleDoctorPHD
I don't think Henry the Eighth and Amy's marriage isn't proper in the Doctor Who universe, so I don't think the Tenth Doctor would count... But I could be wrong
- Mewiet
I didn't realize there was a post about this here. I just posted about this over on Amy's talk page the other day because I don't think Henry VIII should be listed as Amy's spouse. To repeat what I said on the talk page -
This is the dialogue for the scene:
Amy: Somebody was talking and I just said yes. Rory: To wedding vows! You just married Henry VIII on our anniversary.
They were there for Henry VIII's wedding to someone else and Amy, absently overhearing someone talking, just said the word "yes." That does not constitute a ceremony or legal agreement, especially when the words weren't even directed at her, she's never referred to as Henry VIII's wife unless Rory's line is stretched to be taken as something other than a verbal jab to the ribs, and there's no evidence Amy or Henry VIII consider Amy's "yes" to be legally/religiously/culturally/ceremonially/morally binding.
So far only Shambala108 noticed and commented.
- Sabovia
That's just speculation, which doesn't belong on any article.
- Mewiet
Sabovia wrote: That's just speculation, which doesn't belong on any article.
Saying she actually married Henry VIII is speculation in and of itself.
- Sabovia
Mewiet wrote:
Sabovia wrote: That's just speculation, which doesn't belong on any article.
Saying she actually married Henry VIII is speculation in and of itself.
I'm afraid it's not.
Rory: You just married Henry VIII on our anniversary.
It's not speculation, the in-universe source says she married Henry VIII, so that's what TARDIS goes with.
- Mewiet
I'm afraid it's nowhere near conclusive when taken in context. It's highly suspect and screams unreliable narrator. The fact is, Amy never refers to Henry VIII as her husband. Henry VIII never refers to Amy as his wife. Just because Amy said yes doesn't mean Henry did.
- Sabovia
Mewiet wrote: I'm afraid it's nowhere near conclusive when taken in context. It's highly suspect and screams unreliable narrator. The fact is, Amy never refers to Henry VIII as her husband. Henry VIII never refers to Amy as his wife. Just because Amy said yes doesn't mean Henry did.
Again that's just speculation. TARDIS goes with the script, and only the script when it comes to an in-universe biography.
- Bwburke94
Do we have a reason to claim unreliable narrator, though? It's not like the "507 regenerations" line in Death of the Doctor where it's a clear lie.
In any case, the Doctor is already a son-in-law of Amy's via his marriage to River. And it's different with Liz 1 because she's not Amy's daughter.
- Sabovia
Bwburke94 wrote: Do we have a reason to claim unreliable narrator, though? It's not like the "507 regenerations" line in Death of the Doctor where it's a clear lie.
In any case, the Doctor is already a son-in-law of Amy's via his marriage to River. And it's different with Liz 1 because she's not Amy's daughter.
I think the topic has moved on from that. Besides, this topic belongs on Amy's talkpage, not here.
- Mewiet
Bwburke94 wrote: Do we have a reason to claim unreliable narrator, though? It's not like the "507 regenerations" line in Death of the Doctor where it's a clear lie.
The fact that they're in a distressing situation for one: The Doctor takes them out to celebrate their anniversary and it's yet another anniversary date that gets spoiled and ends up with them hiding under the bed to avoid being captured hence a lot of mixed emotions.
There is no consensus about the validity of the so-called "vows" anyway: even if Rory is being serious - and there's no way to prove that he is because his line can just as easily be taken as him exaggerating/ragging on Amy for getting them chased under the bed - Amy doesn't agree that she made any vows when she writes it off as just absently saying "yes" because she heard someone talking. Why should Rory automatically be right and Amy wrong?
- 60.241.168.58
They (Henry VIII of England and Amy Pond) got married, but not legally. That means that Amy was supposed to be Queen of England.
- Bwburke94
We don't have enough to call this a legitimate marriage. And why bring this up now?
- Shambala108
Bwburke94 wrote: And why bring this up now?
Nothing wrong with a user adding to a discussion that they've just found, as long as the discussion is still open, as this one is.
We can't say anything further than the script does, which means no infobox addition. (Also no infobox addition because it's not very important information to the topic of Amy as a whole; see my message above about the use of infoboxes.)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:154078
- Shambala108
It's from The Stones of Blood, and it's a bird costume worn by Vivien Fey.
- BrigadierBenton
I believe it is the Cessair of Diplos.
- 66.118.84.2
Ah, thank you. I thought I remembered seeing that one from somewhere; just couldn't remember. Again, thank you.
- Randtedronai
Oops, didn't log in before sending that message, lol.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:154204
It would seem that C-Day, as far as WOTAN was concerned, was on 'Monday 16th July 1966'. WOTAN had some very dodgy programmers, as 16th July 1966 was a Saturday.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:154305
i don't know if this has anything to do with this page but my best friend just told me she had cancer and only two months to live she loves this show and i want to know if i can do anything for her i don't know what like name an ep after her or put a character in with her name i don't know but i want to do something speshal for her if you can help thank you
- Shambala108
Sorry, this wiki is not in any way affiliated with the BBC or the show.
- 66.31.77.230
ok thxs anyway though
- Lego Whovian
You can try contacting the BBC on their website.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:154367
I just watched Season 4, episode 16 (water monsters, 10th Doctor tries to change time, almost succeeds, woman kills herself). In the end, time supposedly reasserted itself; everyone still died who should have, everyone who didn't did what they were supposed to, et cetera. But two people (and a robot) who should have died survived. While they presumably weren't too important to the continuity of the universe past that point, the deaths of all on the station were fixed. The Doctor changed that, but last time a fixed point was changed, a bunch of giant monsters appeared and tried to kill everyone. This brings up two issues. 1, why didn't that happen here, and 2, wouldn't the Doctor know that giant monsters at least SHOULD appear, and avoid changing a fixed point because of that?
- Thebigbadwolf82
This is an issue for me as well. I've continually struggled to figure out why the Reapers appeared when Rose saved Pete from dying. It couldn't have been a fixed point in time, because the Doctor tells her that the thing she changed will stay changed at one point in the episode. And when someone broke a fixed point in time (River not killing the Doctor) it created an alternate universe where all of history was happening at once. So...I think the Doctor once said that only specific people are part of a fixed point in time. And I think that Paul Cornell (who wrote Father's Day) may have collaborated with Russell T Davies about this, so I think that when Pete died they just wanted to highlight what would happen if someone did something like that. Sorry if it didn't answer your question, but that is what I think happened to the best of my understanding.
- Shambala108
You might be interested in reading Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/Father's Day and Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/The Waters of Mars to see other people's take on the question.
- 104.32.214.184
Don't forget The Wedding of River Song.
- 98.243.156.147
Ok, I have a theory on that situation. Actually its part of the plot of a fan fiction I am writing.(if you think its stupid feel free to tell me, if you have a helping hand to explain it better)
When a fixed point event in time is prevented. Space-time decay is the effect. Depending on the severity of the event; the decay can be minute (Reapers for roses father) or catastrophic (Reality dissolving for the Doctor) I propose that Space-time is a renewable resource; like karma, or an electric car with an alternator. That reality is fueled from the psychic resonance of a fixed point event. Everyone remembers how you felt when 9-11 happened. The way your heart skipped a beat, the muscles in your neck tightened, and so on. Those moments in everyone's life, throughout the universe are absorbed by the time vortex and redistributed in other areas. Thus sustaining reality. The more people who react that way to a point in time, the more energy is being given back to the time vortex. At some point the amount of psychic resonance received by one moment in time is so great, that if that moment does not happen; the vortex cannot compensate, and the barriers of time, and reality disintegrate. Turning Wibbly Wobely Timey Whimey into a melted banana split. However there is a loophole in this law. As long as there is a surge of Psychic Resonance of equal, or greater strength, at the same exact time as the intended fixed point; The fabric of Space-time will remain unscathed. If you would like me to go into deeper detail I'd be happy to.
Per Tardis:Forum policy, forums are only for discussing the editing of the wiki or answering questions that can be answered using information from the show, books, etc. Speculation and theories, however, are not allowed in the forums (or article talk pages). We do allow speculation and theories at Howling:The Howling.
Also, we do not allow fan fiction anywhere on the wiki. There are lots of sites on the internet for discussing and posting fan fiction; we don't allow it here. Thanks!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:154421
Actor who starred with three Doctors?
- OttselSpy25
Nicholas Courtney?
- Tybort
Technically Billie Piper, I suppose. With Eccleston as Rose; with Tennant as both Rose and the Moment at different points; and with John Hurt and Matt Smith as the Moment.
Counting spin-offs, Elisabeth Sladen's appeared opposite Pertwee, Tom Baker, Tennant and Smith. (School Reunion might not have counted a starring appearance, but I'm sure The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith does.
Jenna Coleman, who appeared with Hurt, Tennant and Smith (and if you count the Curator as a Doctor, Tom Baker) in The Day of the Doctor, and also appeared with other actors using repurposed footage in The Name of the Doctor.
Nicholas Briggs as a Dalek voice actor and Barnaby Edwards and Nicholas Pegg as Dalek Operators, all of whom have been working since the Eccleston era, and counting Big Finish, Briggs has had even more appearances alongside the "classic" Doctors.
- Tangerineduel
On another technicality there's also everyone who's in the final scenes in The Five Doctors; Janet Fielding, Mark Strickson, Elisabeth Sladen, Nicholas Courtney all starred alongside albeit briefly Patrick Troughton, Jon Pertwee, Peter Davison and Richard Hurndall.
Anthony Keetch has acted alongside '4 Doctors Davison, Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy and Paul McGann in various audio stories (though specifically The Sirens of Time and Neverland.
Sean Carlsen has acted alongside Paul McGann (The Natural History of Fear), Peter Davison (The Council of Nicaea]] and Colin Baker (Disassembled).
Actually now that I look at it, it's very easy to find Big Finish actors who've acted with three or even more than that Doctor actors. As Big Finish have some actors who are versatile and can do lots of voices / accents. So it's possible for some actors like John Dorney for example to have acted alongside 5 Doctor actors.
- Skteosk
There must be several dozen of them, of which a few dozen would have acted with more than three. The obvious example is John Scott Martin, the only person to have acted with all seven old series Doctors on television. Anthony Ainley acted with all of them bar William Hartnell, counting his appearance with Troughton and Pertwee in The Five Doctors. Roy Skelton acted with all of them bar one of the 80s Doctors, Peter Davison I think. Michael Sheard acted with five Doctors on screen and at least one in the audio plays. John Bailey I randomly recall acting with three Doctors. Bernard Kay acted with three on screen and at least one more for Big Finish. There's probably loads more if I could sit down and think about it.
- Skteosk
Actually, technically John Bailey doesn't have any scenes with Tom Baker in The Horns of Nimon. (Similar situations with Walter Randall and Cyril Shaps among others).
John Levene's the obvious one, having played Benton alongside three Doctors (four if watching a playback of William Hartnell counts). A couple of other Dalek operators managed it: Cy Town appeared with five Doctors, Murphy Grumbar with three and there's a couple who did all the 80s stories. Terry Molloy played Davros opposite three Doctors on television and one in the audios.
Dallas Cavell appeared with four Doctors. Others who've managed three include Donald Pickering, Wanda Ventham, Christopher Benjamin (Pertwee, Tom Baker and Tennant), Bernard Horsfall, Martin Jarvis, Ric Felgate, Michael Kilgarriff, John Abineri, Kevin Stoney, Philip Madoc counting Big Finish, Tony Caunter, Peter Miles if you count Big Finish, Norman Jones, Alan Rowe, James Bree...
Actors with a large amount of uncredited appearances, often in monster costume and/or missing episodes, are hard to be sure of: Pat Gorman appeared with up to six Doctors, Terry Walsh four, Stuart Fell three.
- 104.32.214.184
What was the purpose of this discussion for the Tardis Data Core, the Doctor Who Wiki?
- 104.32.214.184
Doctor Who rocks!
- 104.32.214.184
Sorry.. I thought this was the Panopticon.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:156333
In "The Nightmare in Silver, the captain of the platoon calls a piece of broken equipment "a solid state sub-ether ansible class communicator." Ansible is the term invented by Ursula LeGuin for faster than light speed communication. Ether could refer to the aether (substance thought by early scientists to fill the void) or ethernet (computer networking.)
- Shambala108
Do you have a question about it?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:156532
once again we have to put up with unsolvable clues. for anyone who's interested here it is.
17 across - recently appointed to the staff of coal hill school. (4,5)
answer - ?a??y ?i??
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:156805
The Gallifrey audio Forever features Unit 190, aka Sura, who appears to be the counterpart to Susan Foreman on that story's alternate Gallifrey. However, it's been a while since I've listened to it; how obvious is the Susan connection made in the story? Is there anything which gets in the way of it being an obvious enough connection to note in Susan and Sura's articles, and the Forever article?
- AdricLovesNyssa
I think it's not too much of a connection it's just a coincidence as far as I can tell, it's like Jo Grant and Iris Wildthyme being the same as Borusa in Disassembled. Also there are instants od doppelgangers within the main universe that have no connections.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:157010
What is the "I am the Doctor" variant from Night and the Doctor: Last Night?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:158467
The opening of The Bells Of St John and the WiFi warning. We could swear we've seen that before in another episode or spin off show.... Any help? 04:12, July 2, 2014 (UTC)~
A lot of Torchwood episodes also have a similar style.
The speaking direct to camera element is shared with Love & Monsters.
The characters warning of things to come combined with some to-camera acting is in The God Complex.
Alternatively as I've said that format of story telling has turned up in a lot of other TV story telling, so it might be something like Moffat's Sherlock that you're thinking of. Which also plays with similar styles and one of the most recent episodes of Sherlock was also directed by Colm McCarthy who also directed The Bells of St John.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:158483
well here we go again with yet another unsolvable clue.
21 across - warrior race defeated in south wales.
answer - ?a?n?r?e?
please help
- 165.228.133.90
it's taken me longer than it should but i have solved the clue myself
the answer is - bannermen
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:158652
Hello. I am trying to track down the direct-to-video productions by Reeltime & BBV. I have found several of the productions uploaded in several segments but I was wondering if anyone could help me find them intact. Of course, if not I will happily make do with what I have found. The ones that I have been completely unable to find however are "Wartime", "Downtime", & "Daemons Rising". Additionally, the videos that I have found for "Mindgame Trilogy" total up to less than one hour, but the TDC page for it (& other pages elsewhere on the web verify) states that it runs 80 minutes. The uploader also uploaded "Making of Mindgame Trilogy" which roughly brings the total to about 80 minutes; is that featurette included in the runtime? I ask because she/he also has uploaded "Making of Mindgame", but the videos for "Mindgame" add up correctly without including "Making of...".
Also, I cannot seem to find the six episodes of "Sarah Jane's Alien Files", the clip-show tie-in to "The Sarah Jane Adventures". If anyone knows where to find that & Adventures season 5, I would appreciate that too.
The films that I *have* found (broken into segments) are "Shakedown: Return of the Sontarans", all four "P.R.O.B.E." films, all three "Auton" films, and both "Mindgame" films, just in case anyone knows where to find them unbroken.
I would prefer to stream video but I am willing to rent/buy if I absolutely have to, but only if it is cheap.
Thanks for any and all help; sorry if this post is a bit lengthy!
-Julius
With SJAF, you can actually entirely give up on the notion of any kind of availability whatsoever. It was on iPlayer back at the top of the decade, but it's been at least two years since you could stream it there. And it has never been made available to home video. So there is no legal way to get it. Don't worry though: you're not missing much. It really is just a clip show, wherein scenes from SJA proper are merely repackaged with a slight — which is to say minuscule — framing narrative ties those scenes together.
As for Reeltime and BBV stuff, there never was any sort of legal streaming, nor could there be. My guess is that because they were, for the most part, made prior to the advent of streaming, the rights were never obtained for exhibition through streaming. To my knowledge, there was also never any rental. This was a very small operation.
I'm afraid your only recourse now is the secondary market — eBay, Amazon re-sellers, specialist Doctor Who merchandisers, that sort of thing. And, no, it won't be cheap. But then it never was.
Whenever you speak of someone being "the uploader", I can only assume, therefore, that you're speaking of some sort of unlicensed file sharing, and so I must bring this discussion to a close. This wiki in no way encourages or assists people to find extra-legal copies of any DWU products.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:159058
Hi, I've been searching through the 2010-2013 era soundtracks (that's NewWho series 5-7) and I can't seem to find a rendition of the 'I am the Doctor' medley from the soundtrack that appears in the Coming Soon trailer from the end of 'The Eleventh Hour'. It appears at about 1:13 into the trailer and is mainly vocal. It also appears in the Series 7, part 2 Coming Soon trailer at the end of 'The Snowmen'.
This may seem tedious, but I really need your help, dear reader.
- BigBruv
You'll find it in the Series 5 version of "I Am the Doctor", it's just been chopped up. Some parts of it aren't in the soundtrack at all, however, only appearing in trailers, so unless you search on YouTube, you have no luck.
- Amorkuz
"I Am the Doctor" is also part of Doctor Who - The 50th Anniversary Collection (soundtrack).
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:159233
I am stuck on the final word(s) in the DWM Issue 476 crossword.
8 Across and 7 Down: "He saved the Sixth Doctor's life (6,10)
I have: _ E _ R _ E / _ T _ _ H _ _ S _ _
None of these letters have to be in any other words.
- Shambala108
Try George Stephenson from The Mark of the Rani.
- Milo Moran
Aha! Cheers! That's the whole thing done then.
- Shambala108
Great!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:159346
Having watched The Evil of the Daleks today, a question occurs: was 1866 the first time there were Daleks on Earth, or are there earlier visits I've missed? My knowledge of the expanded universe isn't comprehensive enough to say for sure.
- PicassoAndPringles
The Daleks visit Shakespeare in 1572 in The Time of the Daleks (audio story). There might be something even earlier in Renaissance of the Daleks (audio story), but its been awhile since I've given it a listen.
- Leda74
Thanks! I thought I was probably missing something.
- Tangerineduel
- Fadedeathdave
And also from The Time of the Daleks (audio story)]], they visited and subjugated most other time zones, one of which being Roman Britain (which was also shown in Seasons of Fear (audio story)]]
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:159592
Hello folks! I wonder if someone could help me identify those aliens which appeared (briefly) on Dragonfire:
The short furry guy interests me particularly because he looks so much like Zog, in fact, the ears are different, but otherwise I think he looks exactly like Zog. Even though Dragonfire predates The Ultimate Adventure by two years, I'm inclined to think it might be the same costume, in which case, it would be interesting to add this to the story notes for Dragonfire.
And then you have this green guy which looks so familiar... I have a strong feeling I've seen this creature somewhere else, but I can't pinpoint where. Does anyone know who that is?
- In Iceworld, the barman was called Eisenstein, and he was currently glowering at three customers seated at the door. His assistant, a rebellious-looking sixteen-year-old waitress, was hurrying backwards and forwards with trayfuls of drinks. The three objects of Eisenstein's ill humour were a tall reptilian creature, a woman with blue hair and silver skin, and a small furry creature with disgusting table manners, who was actually a Galactic Ambassador. The woman seemed to be calling the Ambassador 'Erick' as she dropped small pieces of food into its mouth. Erick was managing to drool half of the food all over the table (which Eisenstein would have to clean up afterwards) and spit the rest of it over the customers sitting nearby. Disgusting! thought Eisenstein, as he watched a small piece of half-chewed seaweed fly out of Erick's mouth and arc gracefully down the cleavage of a pig-featured hologram model sitting three tables away. Absolutely disgusting!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:159947
Why was the War Doctor created?
- Shambala108
Do you mean in-universe or out-of-universe (production-wise)?
- 86.178.205.26
The recent DWM special on the 50th Anniversary said that Stephen Moffat had tied with having a very famous actor as a one-off far future Doctor, but never did anything with it. When Christopher Ecclestone decided not to take part in the Anniversary Special, Moffat modified this idea to be a hitherto-unknown past Doctor, noting that there had never been an 8/9 regeneration. He had didn't like the idea of the 8th Doctor fighting the Time War, he didn't think the personality was right
- Sefiros
okay. that was the answer I was looking for. thanks.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:160343
Hey guys, there is a question that many creature's have wondered, WHAT IS THE DOCTOR'S REAL NAME? Or what do you think it is because I'd love to know other people's opinions. THX (don't worry about the silence)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:161541
I was wondering what exactly was the source for the SJA dating? Does it have to do with the real-life broadcast dates?
- Bwburke94
The crossovers with Doctor Who and Torchwood make a general time period easy to find. The Stolen Earth/Journey's End takes place no earlier than March 2009 and no later than September 2009, as this is the only time period where Torchwood Three consists of Jack, Gwen, and Ianto. As the two-parter is known to be in the SJA Series 1–2 gap, this narrows it down significantly. However, I found more concrete proof:
- As of Invasion of the Bane, K9 Mark IV has been in deep space for eighteen months, placing it no earlier than mid-July 2008, and likely in around late August or early September.
- In Turn Left, Clyde is already part of Sarah Jane's gang by the time of the Royal Hope Hospital incident (Smith and Jones). This would appear to place SJA Series 1 in early 2008, but as Turn Left occurs in Donna's World, it's possible that the Trickster manipulated events to place it earlier than in the main timeline.
- Revenge of the Slitheen takes place shortly after after Invasion of the Bane, so the Park Vale school year appears to start in early September. From this point onwards, we can generally assume the rest of Series 1 follows RTD's general policy of being a year ahead of real life. This continues through the end of Series 4. (The Nightmare Man has Luke going to university a year early, so SJA Series 4 remained a year ahead despite Doctor Who reverting to the present day. This places Death of the Doctor in autumn 2011, around six months after the Lake Silencio incident.)
- Sky appears to mark the point where SJA switched to present day. Sadly, with Lis Sladen's death, it's impossible to prove. Any dates on SJA Series 5 stories are purely speculation.
- As of Invasion of the Bane, K9 Mark IV has been in deep space for eighteen months, placing it no earlier than mid-July 2008, and likely in around late August or early September.
- CzechOut
I would push back on the notion that dating BBC Wales productions is easy. General time periods, fine. Generally we're in the late 2000s, early 2010s — that is, the years of broadcast. But few things have been as contentious to DW fans as trying to give an actual year to the modern day segments of BBC Wales productions. Whole, long threads are devoted to it over at Gallifrey Base, and none of them have ever come to a definitive conclusion about every single story.
At this wiki, we've changed those dates over and over again. I wouldn't trust our dating more than a tinker's damn. The best thing we could do for the accuracy of the wiki is to stop trying to give a date to stories where the date is not absolutely stated. Note the number of times, above, that the words "appears" and "assume" occur. I'm not picking on Bwburke94 — merely pointing out that it's impossible to assemble a cross-series timeline that doesn't involve those words.
Unless the dates are actually relevant to the storytelling, as they arguably are from the start of series 1 of DW up to about Partners in Crime — because the dialogue does specify a year as it relates to Rose, Martha and Donna — it's probably safest to just characterise by decade, or to not even worry about dates beyond saying "modern day". I would also tend to believe there was no real attempt by BBC Wales to make sure that dates in SJA and Torchwood aligned with DW. Additionally, timelines within Torchwood itself are totally screwed by graphics within Miracle Day giving Gwen's dates of membership in Torchwood Three — ones that are impossible to rectify against TW series 1, much less DW series 1.
Roughly speaking, "modern day" in Torchwood and SJA is ±1 the year of broadcast. It doesn't matter one bit to the consumption of the narrative whether you hit the year exactly, because no SJA narratives care at all what year the current year is.
And that's why the most accurate thing for us to say in almost every instance is "modern day" rather than a specific year.
- CzechOut
And actually, of course, specific years are given for Amy and Clara, but they're obviously outside of the whole "Rose +1 year" question, which forms the basis of the speculation about SJA and TW.
- Bwburke94
Clara was actually eight months behind the viewers at the start of Series 8. But that's beside the point.
- Tybort
Bwburke94 wrote: Clara was actually eight months behind the viewers at the start of Series 8. But that's beside the point.
Only if you can conclusively say that narratively The Day of the Doctor, which features Kate Stewart (not to mention, among other things, The Power of Three taking place over a year between July and July), is in 2013 and The Time of the Doctor is Christmas 2013. Seeing as Strax identifies her age as 27 (I think Bells or Akhaten or both insinuate she's 24 in 2013) in Deep Breath, I have my doubts.
But yes, at the very least, The Name of the Doctor is April 2013.
- Digifiend
Based on those ages, there's a time skip after Name. If she was 24 in series 7, and 27 in Deep Breath, then three years roughly have passed before Day of the Doctor, which shows that she's quit her nannying job, got a teaching qualification, and got a job at Coal Hill School. Deep Breath takes place immediately after Time of the Doctor, and Into the Dalek is three weeks after that. So I'd say Clara is not eight months behind the viewers - Time of the Doctor would probably be Christmas 2016, and Into the Dalek onwards in 2017 - so she's three years ahead.
- LelalMekha
Now that I think of it, there's at least one SJA episode that can be dated with certainty. In The Mad Woman in the Attic, Rani's friend Samuel is said to be 15 years old and born in 1994—which gives 2009. The date on Sam's e-mail to Rani also gives us the month: October.
- Bwburke94
Lost in Time is also definitively dated to 23 November 2010, due to a newspaper showing that date.
- CzechOut
Bwburke94 wrote: Lost in Time is also definitively dated to 23 November 2010, due to a newspaper showing that date.
Exactly why this is all an exercise in madness. That puts Lost in Time pretty much at its broadcast date, which means that the
broadcast year + 1theory doesn't work for SJA. But that would seem impossible, since Sarah Jane is personally caught up in the dynamics ofby +1, since she met Rose in what absolutely had to be theby +1episode of School Reunion.The Lost in Time newspaper makes a total nonsense of trying to figure out not just SJA dates, but cross-series dates as a whole. We're much better off as a wiki just saying "approximately broadcast date" in the infobox, and then explaining any nuancing details, like this newspaper, in the body of the text.
- Tybort
I seem to recall that Death of the Doctor, which aired the same season as Lost in Time, described Sarah Jane reuniting with the Doctor as "four years ago". Which considering the whole broadcast year +1 thing only really makes sense if she's rounding because it's late in the year 2010 or if the season's actually set in 2011.
- Bwburke94
Tybort wrote: I seem to recall that Death of the Doctor, which aired the same season as Lost in Time, described Sarah Jane reuniting with the Doctor as "four years ago". Which considering the whole broadcast year +1 thing only really makes sense if she's rounding because it's late in the year 2010 or if the season's actually set in 2011.
Sarah Jane Smith and dates do not go well together. Death of the Doctor has the additional problem of the Doctor himself being a time traveller, making it impossible to verify its date from his own side of things. For the Doctor, it's after The Big Bang, but for Sarah Jane, it's after The Vault of Secrets and two serials before Lost in Time.
- CzechOut
In the broadest sense, Death of the Doctor is after The Big Bang, but there's nothing in the dialogue which suggests it's not also after A Christmas Carol. We say it's after The Big Bang, because that cements broadcast order as narrative order, but the script offers us no particular toehold on that mountain. When the distance of time allows you to be less interested in broadcast order, you can watch Carol first and Dead later and be perfectly convinced that's the correct way round.
I've long felt we accept broadcast order far too readily as narrative order — something that's less and less relevant in particular with so-called "classic" Doctor Who, since it's not even sold by the series.
As a wiki, we should strive for the most neutral observation of timeline placement. In most cases, this means not even trying to assert one.
- Bwburke94
The First and Fifth Doctors' eras narratively link each story to the next, but we have no such recourse for the Second, Third, Fourth, Sixth, or Seventh. We assume the Doctor's timeline is in broadcast order for classic Doctor Who because there is rarely evidence to the contrary.
BBC Wales Doctor Who generally makes an effort to definitively place the stories in broadcast order from the Doctor's perspective, except for occasional hiccups like A Town Called Mercy. The spinoffs, on the other hand, got screwed up by DW not airing a full series in 2009, which caused a dating problem similar to the UNIT problem in the classic series.
tl;dr: The Doctor's timeline within televised Doctor Who is generally in broadcast order, but the BBC Wales-era spinoffs may not be in broadcast order.
- Bwburke94
The 2016 date for Doctor Who series 8 is now confirmed... which doesn't actually help much with SJA. I'll make a sandboxed "BBC Wales dating problem" article for now, but it won't go in main article space until we figure out how to handle character pages affected by the dates.
- 64.53.212.78
Where is the date confirmed?
- Tybort
I think it's somewhere in In the Forest of the Night.
- Lewody1
The Doctor mentions something about planting an acorn in the 1700s and it growing into a tree in 2016. It doesn't necessarily mean that the episode was set in 2016. I think the episode was set in 2017 at the earliest due to Strax recording Clara as being 27 in Deep Breath and she was born in 1989. Because she was picked up on Christmas day it is most likely that it was Christmas 2016 and then the rest of the episodes are set after New Year.
- Bwburke94
We're getting into speculation and the physical/chronological age debate again. Since the main topic of SJA is no longer being discussed, this thread has become a bit pointless.
- OttselSpy25
And people say there isn't a modern UNIT dating controversy...
- Bwburke94
We settled this a year ago... this thread should be closed
- Shambala108
Bwburke94 wrote: We settled this a year ago... this thread should be closed
Please leave it up to the admins to decide when a thread should be closed. If it hasn't been closed yet, I'd rather not have you discourage editors from contributing. Thanks.
But SJA timing gets murkier the further you get into the programme's run -- and therefore the further you get into the runs of Torchwood and Doctor Who itself.
This kinda thing is why we ruled long ago that timeline dating efforts belong in the Theory namespace. They shouldn't appear on story pages or be declarative statements on in-universe pages. In almost every case, it doesn't matter to your enjoyment of SJA stories what year they take place in, save perhaps their proximity to other SJA stories.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:161780
I confess I have not read The Gallifrey Chronicles but I was looking through the articles of all the K9 models and not one of them mentions his appearance in that novel. So which one was it? Is there any evidence in the text to support one version over another? Wikipedia thinks it's Mark II.
- PicassoAndPringles
- MystExplorer
Thanks! I'll make the necessary alterations.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:162026
I'm posting a question here that I received on my user page. Maybe someone more familiar with the story can answer these questions:
- I didn't know who else to ask. But I was wondering if you could help me. One, do you know what Mr Crane's first name was (Cybus Industries) (Maybe it says in the Time Traveller's Almanac, I don't have the book before you ask). Two, at the start of Rise of the Cybermen, the scene is in a laboratory. Was the laboratory in Lumic's Airship do you know? (He says to a captain to set sail for Great Britain).
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:164076
How did the cybermen exist in the past(1900 series) if they were created so far in the future?
- Skittles the hog
I assume by the "1900 series", you mean Doctor Who in the 20th century. The creation of the Cybermen is a muddied affair. What account are you referring to by "so far in the future"?
- Bwburke94
The Cybermen had rudimentary time travel access, but they appear to have been created before 1986, making the question moot.
- Skittles the hog
Well, the question needs to be elaborated upon before you cast it aside. I'd still like to know what information it is founded upon.
- Serinna13
I am talking about the ones in the parallel world,
"Pete's World" in season 2 or 1 of the 21st century series.
- Shambala108
The Pete's World cybermen were created (by Lumic) independently of the cybermen from the Doctor's universe.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:164398
If the events of The Time of The Doctor change the dark future of Trenzalore, and The Doctor's grave could there be a slight 50/50 chance that The Great Intelligence might return to the series?
- Dark Fantasy1990
Sorry if this is in the wrong section.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:164539
Hey guys! i was in search of a long coat for my formal dressing which i want to wear in my office and hangout with friends in coming winter season. I have searched so many online store but i can't find such nice outfit except angeljackets.com.Is there any other store for that??
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:165231
I was recently watching the series 3 finale with the master and was wondering what the name of the song that plays when Martha beats the master and the doctor returns to his normal age, basically from that shot of the Valiant with the master saying "Citizens of Earth rejoice and observe" up until the doctor says "I forgive you". Many thanks
- Skittles the hog
I think it's Martha's Quest, but it might be alternative arrangement.
|- |166494 |20141106214135-25633740/20141129123414-18068753 |Board Thread:The Reference Desk/@comment-25633740-20141106214135/@comment-18068753-20141129123414 |1781990 |2014-11-29T 12:34:14Z |18068753 |Saints'Hoodie |286
But if you're talking about the majority of the music that plays in both the final Martha/Doctor scene in LOTL -- and certainly in TC -- it's a restatement and re-orchestration of the beginning of "The Doctor Forever".
At least to my ear. But I could well be wrong. In any case it's been 2.5 years since anyone visited this thread, so it's time to close 'er up.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:166031
Outside of the Doctor, how many Timelords have there been in the show to have had more than one incarnation?
- PicassoAndPringles
- Skittles the hog
Depending on your interpretation of the mind-bending contest, Morbius could be included on that list.
- Digifiend
Rassilon can as well.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:166231
what is the Farthest Distance Materialized\Dematerialized by the T.A.R.D.I.S. on screen?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:168800
1. Does the linking narration happen every time any character does anything or does it only happen a few times an episode?
2. Can someone provide a quote of a linking narration describing an action-packed scene?
3. Some Doctor Who DVDs include the soundtracks of missing episodes, such as The Crusade (Episodes 2 & 4), Galaxy 4 (Episodes 1, 2 & 4) and The Web Of Fear (Episode 3). Do these soundtracks also have linking narration?
- Shambala108
It's been a while since I listened to the soundtracks, so I checked out one soundtrack and one DVD (The Web of Fear) to see if I could answer some of your questions.
Soundtracks: Narration occurs to introduce characters, describe situations (like the web around the TARDIS), and describe events, such as fights. However, because the soundtrack continues to play with no interruption, narration doesn't occur when there is dialogue. For instance, when the TARDIS doors are open and Jamie is trying to close them, there is a lot of dialogue, therefore no narration.
DVD: The soundtracks for DVDs include still photos, so they apparently felt there was no need for narration. They do use techniques like zooming in or out of a photo to suggest action.
Like I said, it's been a while, and I only looked at one story, so my comments might not be completely accurate.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:171669
In "The Day of the Moon," there's a brief burst of Apollo-era digital audio when Canton injects the video clip of the Silence into the Apollo transmission. Surprisingly, Google doesn't show any information about this.
I've recently gotten into HAM digital modes, and identified the signal as Reversed RTTY (Radio TeleTYpe) with a mark tone of ~835Hz and a space tone shift of ~175Hz.
While the orchestral soundtrack covers up most of the signal, the beginning of the transmission clearly decodes as the word "YOU". Based on the length of the signal, my suspicion is that the SoundFX engineer who created it used the "YOU SHOULD KILL US ALL ON SIGHT" dialog rather than hunting for / licensing any Apollo-era computer sound libraries.
Any chance that someone else can confirm this?
To me, either conclusion is speculative, and therefore would be inappropriate to include in the article.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:171964
There was a story where he was turned into a baby i think and didn't the villain or villains torment him by letting him keep his adult mind?
- Shambala108
Benton was regressed to a baby in The Time Monster, but I don't recall anything about whether his mind was also regressed or not. Maybe you're thinking of the novelization?
It's possible that you're remembering what happened to the other temporal victim in the story, Stuart Hyde. Perhaps through bad acting, he doesn't seem to change that much, mentally, when he ages. So he's in the apparent awkward position of believing in his mind that he's 27 when his body is much older. The book, too, doesn't suggest in any way that he's lost any mental acumen, though he does believe after the initial transformation that he's got a hangover. But in any case, there's no indication whatever that the villains of the piece are actively tormenting him by keeping him in any particular mental condition.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:172486
Title is Content.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:172935
How the show was sold to the networks? How the show was sold to audiences? Print campaigns Teasers and trailers Internet advertising With what shows/websites did promotions for the show appear? Why these specific shows/sites? Did the advertising campaign have a positive or negative effect overall?
any links to relevant sites would be helpful
plz contact me at [email protected]
sry if this is not a valid discussion
- Shambala108
You can probably find some answers at the wiki article Doctor Who, and if you can get a copy of Doctor Who The Handbook: The First Doctor, which is out of print but maybe you can find it used somewhere, it gives a lot of detail about how the show started.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:173125
Antwerp, annoyingly, can't be added to Category:Belgian cities until we find proof from the DWU that it's in Belgium. A good map, with borders, from the DWU would help a lot with this. Can anyone think of such a map?
- SOTO
To clarify, we're looking for a screenshot of a moment in a DWU story where a map with political borders can be seen. We found a bunch of episodes that had maps in them, but none so far with borders.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Panopticon/Thread:174366
How many Doctors will there be?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:174620
Could someone enlighten me about how, exaclty a tardis could malfunction. The question dawned on me as i was watching Episode 6 of Season 2 Rise Of The Cybermen.
- 92.232.120.225
You mean in general or at the start of Rise of the Cybermen? For general malfunctions, the engines I believe were damaged by a magno-grab (while the shields were down) in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, while the 1996 movie makes vague mention of a timing malfunction causing the Doctor to make an emergency stop in San Francisco while on the way to Gallifrey. Also, in The Name of the Doctor, one of Clara's echoes mentions that the TARDIS' "knackered" navigation system would mean the First Doctor would have more fun stealing that one. According to Journey's End, a fully armed Dalek fleet could disable the TARDIS' shields and trap the TARDIS in a temporal prison.
Also, removing the dematerialisation circuit (from several Third Doctor stories) I believe prevents the TARDIS from, well, dematerialising.
And it's been on the blink ever since. A lot of the time we don't know why it's malfunctioned — just that it has. But it's been variously out of mercury, out of Zeiton-7, throwing fault indicator lights, piloted by an incompetent Doctor, or simply grumpy. To make things more complicated, The Doctor's Wife suggests that the TARDIS, a living being, has pretended to be faulty when she was really deliberately guiding the Doctor to a particular spot for reasons of her own.
But if you're asking specifically about Rise of the Cybermen, the reason for fault there is pretty straightforward. The TARDIS has found itself in an alternate reality that's simply incompatible with her. She essentially "shorts out", until the Doctor can share some of his regenerative energy with her and jump start her.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:175247
Is there any canon information on why some Time Lords have titles (The Doctor, The Master) while others have names (Romana, Rassilon, etc.)?
- PicassoAndPringles
There is no hard rule, but it seems like renegade Time Lords, like the Doctor, the Master, the Monk, and the Rani, are the ones who adopt titles. For example, in The Dimension Riders, the Time Lord Epsilon Delta goes renegade and decides to adopt the title "the President".
- 75.166.221.106
Ah, excellent! Thank you!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:175281
Are there other collectors from around the world, who might also hold such missing episodes and may not realize it, if the originator has since died, like Bob Monkhouse, and the collection hasn't been catalogued?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:176096
Is the dematerialisation/rematerialisation noise that the Dalek time machine makes listed in any of the novelations?
Like the TARDIS is said to making a wheeze groaning, Vworp or 'thundering elephants' noise I was hoping there was some description somewhere for the electronic pulse noise it makes.
- PicassoAndPringles
The Chase:
- ...there was a strange, electrical tension in the air. With a rush of wind, the box vanished.
- ...far quieter than the TARDIS...
- ...with its soft whine, the Dalek time machine materialized.
- ...with its customary whisper, the time-machine vanished.
- ...the ship whispered into the normal space-time continuum again...
- With its usual whispering sound, the Dalek time machine faded...
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:177699
Why is the color of the page de-activated? I was enjoying a good read with the blue background, when all of a sudden, its white again. Why is this happening?
- Digifiend
I'd imagine that's controlled using Javascript... and Wikia had a few problems last weekend with hackers.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:177993
Assuming that the character died when the actor died (these things often happen when your not a timelord or james bond) Did Sarah Jane smith come back as a cyberman during a death in heaven?
- Shambala108
Actually, we had a similar question asked a few months ago at Thread:165490. We have no way of knowing any more than was revealed in the story, but you might be interested in some of the comments posted on that old thread.
- Bwburke94
The character didn't die when the actor died (COMIC: The Girl Who Loved Doctor Who) so this question is irrelevant, really.
- Shambala108
Bwburke94 wrote: The character didn't die when the actor died (COMIC: The Girl Who Loved Doctor Who) so this question is irrelevant, really.
Not an irrelevant question, since not everyone is familiar with every story from every medium.
- OttselSpy25
Well, actually it was made clear in all mediums that the tribute to Sladen would be essential immortality to her character -- "the story goes on... forever..." etc.
- Digifiend
Besides, killing her off would've created more unanswered questions, notably, the fates of Sky Smith (who was still at school), Mr Smith (alien technology, but pretty much unmovable), and 13 Bannerman Road (there's so much alien stuff there I suspect UNIT would confiscate it all and stick it in the Black Archive). At least we know K9 is with Luke.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:178344
Does anybody know what the longest (in terms of minutes of screentime) the longest, uninterrupted string of stories is? The longest I can think of off the top of my head is "An Unearthly Child" into "The Daleks" into "The Edge of Destruction" into "Marco Polo," but there may be a longer one. Thanks.
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:178488
So a DWM comic called Blood and Ice has been one of the first to tackle the Multi-Clara spectrum since The Name of the Doctor. Among other things, it kinda brings into question our assessment that all of the Clara's are the same person... But on a more fun and less argue-y topic, Check out this picture of many of the different Claras! Now clearly this has many references to many different eras of the show in it, which is that artists forte really, and those need to be noted in the continuity section of the page... But I'm having trouble directly identifying all of them, although I certainly recognise many of them. The most obvious ones are her in Ark style-clothing and her in a 51st Century space suit... Then there's Tribe of Gum Clara, Victorian Clara, and Dalek Clara... but some of the others I'm having troubles with... Any imput?
- Tybort
The costume on the middle left right above Oswin, or "Dalek Clara", I seem to recall from somewhere in the DWU, possibly a non-TV source, but I can't be certain. I'm not sure if the sari is a reference to anything more specific than it being Indian dress, like the Egyptian Clara being, well, Egyptian. The uniform to the left of Victorian Clara Oswin Oswald I believe is supposed to be a British police officer uniform. Not sure whether or not that's a specific reference to a character or story.
- OttselSpy25
That was one I also immediatley noted as something that looks like a reference... I feel like it's a third or fifth Doctor story with space suits... I'm fairly certain that it's not a comic or short story costume because it looks like it was made out of cheap bits and pieces, and a comic would be more inventive...
- 78.15.37.160
I think it's that story with Four and Leela in the mining station, but could as easily be a generic "retro-scifi suit" that just happens to look Classic Who. (or has bits and bobs from various costumes in various eras)
Clockwise I can see a 20th century policewoman, british astronaut in the recurring NuWho orange spacesuit, Victorian Clara, greekish 2060's zeerusty chick, maori, cavewoman, that sea monster that Polly once dressed as, tudor, Dalek Clara, 19th-20th century aristocrat, zeerust space-girl, 1960's-1980's barbie girl, sari wearer, egyptian pharaoh.
I don't think they're all outfits copied specifically from stories and\or companions, though. And not all of them look like Clara some look like Winnie or whatever that girl is.
- Skittles the hog
"Zeerust space girl" is Morestran. Right down to the symbol on the chest, it matches what Salamar wears in Planet of Evil.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:178860
Because they're meant to be post-Leela but they don't have K9, so timeline's a little iffy...
- Doug86
- OttselSpy25
That's a possible interpretation, but if there's an official answer that's better...
- OttselSpy25
The most logical thing to do is to set the stories within the DWM gap where K9 is lost.
- WJDTwGL
In Hive of Horror the Doctor mentions already having a dog besides Captain, implying that K9 is simply not involved or not around.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:179384
When editing articles such as Time of the Doctor, or the Eleventh Doctor, shouldn't it be ok to actually say the's the twelfth incarnation but the eleventh to use Doctor?
- Shambala108
Actually, no. We are keeping to the prior established numbers for convenience sake. Please see Thread:145487, Thread:145998, Thread:147923, and Thread:156655 for more information.
- Valeyard12.5
Ahh fair enough. Like many fans I'm confused what body/regeneration he's on
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:181425
I meant to post this in the help section.
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:182825
Does anyone know who played the Doctor as a boy in Listen? Usually, the Doctor Who Magazine Special Editions include that kind of information but I don't have a copy of the one that covers the episode.
- Danniesen
I've tried once to find the info online. Usually this information is posted somewhere out there. But I didn't find it.
- Danniesen
IMDb lists John Hurt as uncredited. That was just a flashback. But no mention of the boy.
- MystExplorer
The IMDB also says he's rumored to be Ty Tennant, grandson of Peter Davison, son of Georgia Moffett and adopted son of David Tennant. I don't suppose there's any truth to that, is there?
- Danniesen
Who knows?
- Digifiend
MystExplorer wrote: Does anyone know who played the Doctor as a boy in Listen? Usually, the Doctor Who Magazine Special Editions include that kind of information but I don't have a copy of the one that covers the episode.
There isn't one that covers that episode, or any of series 8. Doctor Who Magazine Special Edition seems to have skipped that, to allow the new partwork to cover it instead.
- Shambala108
Just to emphasize for new users, IMDB is not a valid source on this wiki. If you are interested in contributing to this discussion, please see Tardis:Valid sources#Out-of-universe sources.
- DENCH-and-PALMER
Maybe it was kept secret so he doesn't become the first actor to play the Doctor and to avoid confusion. Like William Hughes is sometime listed before Delgado for the Master in some cases.
- Danniesen
William Hughes' listing as being before Delgado is made from a "The Master" point of view, because that's the first incarnation as a child, whereas Delgado is the adult 13th incarnation of the Master.
- DENCH-and-PALMER
I know, maybe that's why they avoided it for the Doctor.
I (in my own work) put Unknown (Listen).
- Danniesen
Why? It would only be correct that this boy's portrayal of the Doctor is before William Hartnell, giving the fact that this is the First Doctor as a boy, while Hartnell is the First Doctor as an adult.
- DENCH-and-PALMER
Never mind, I just think they did it for those purposes.
- Danniesen
Well... God knows why they didn't include this boy.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:183149
Hello Tardis Wikians. I am here to ask for your help as we don't have anyone well-versed in Doctor Who Magazine to help verify a user's contribution over at Doctor Who Answers.
A user recently made this edit to the question What is the Doctor's name, giving an unspecified issue of DWM as a source for their contribution which, from an outsiders perspective, seems a little suspicious. Can anyone please verify that what has been allegedly said was actually said, and is there any further context the statement was made in that would be important to note along with the fact? Also, if anyone can say which issue the statement was made in, if any, it would be a great help!
Thanks so much for all your help!
- RogerAckroydLives
It is indeed true that Moffat humorously claimed in a semi-recent (last couple of years) issue that keeping the secret of the Doctor's name was something each showrunner has had to do, as if it came out, the show would have to be renamed "Mildred". Just a silly joke made by a creative contributor, nothing to support it being true "in-universe" has, and I'd wager ever will, exist.
- Imamadmad
Ah, thanks for that! I was pretty sure it was a joke, but it is good to verify that it was said at all. Could you by chance name the issue of DWM that this statement came from? It's a fun piece of trivia to have as long as the statement is cited and context is given (our rules at DWA are a bit more relaxed than here at TDC and so little things like this are allowed to be mentioned when put in the proper context).
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:184788
The page for Mechonoid states the following:
A dead Mechanoid can be seen in (TV: Dalek) from a few long shots in the darkened side of the Vault after the TARDIS first materializes, and before they depart.
I have watched the episode, and what the sentence seems to be referring to can be seen to the right. Now, I am not sure that this is clearly a Mechanoid -- without a citation, there is no evidence of this. Anyone know of any reliable sources that confirm this? As far as I can tell, it originates from an unsourced Wikiapedia line. If not, it should at minimum be removed and at most be added to "Myths" on the story page.
- Thefartydoctor
(TV: Dalek) is also listed in its Infobox's Appearances.
- OttselSpy25
That was an edit done by me after I read the sentence. It was when I researched it that I began to question the claim.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:184835
Hi everyone! I'm looking for one music track. It's sad music. It played: - In S04E10 "Midnight" at 42:00 (at the end, when the Doctor returned to Donna and they spoke about last events and lost voice) - In S04E11 "Turn left" at 22:15 (when Wilfred said that America will save Great Britain and send 5 billion quid) - In S04E13 "Journey's End" at 12:46 (when Rose took hand of the Doctor and they looked Tardis destruction) I don't know who was composer of this track. And no one track list haven't this it. Please help!
- PicassoAndPringles
All of the Series 4 music tracks are listed at Doctor Who - Series 4. Could the song you're looking for be "The Rueful Fate of Donna Noble"?
- 95.31.32.106
PicassoAndPringles wrote: All of the Series 4 music tracks are listed at Doctor Who - Series 4. Could the song you're looking for be "The Rueful Fate of Donna Noble"?
Sorry, but it isn't.
- SV7
PicassoAndPringles wrote: All of the Series 4 music tracks are listed at Doctor Who - Series 4. Could the song you're looking for be "The Rueful Fate of Donna Noble"?
Sorry, but it isn't.
- Imamadmad
This piece of music, if you are meaning the one that starts in Midnight at the title card "20 minutes later", does not seems to be on any of the soundtracks released with the first 4 series of Doctor Who, from a quick listen to the start of each of them in comparison to the start of the music in that clip, which is a shame as it's a nice piece of music. Also, just as an FYI, a great place to ask questions of this nature is over at Doctor Who Answers, a partner wiki to Tardis Data Core dedicated to answering very specific questions such as this one. #ShamelessPromotion
- 95.31.32.106
Imamadmad wrote: This piece of music, if you are meaning the one that starts in Midnight at the title card "20 minutes later", does not seems to be on any of the soundtracks released with the first 4 series of Doctor Who, from a quick listen to the start of each of them in comparison to the start of the music in that clip, which is a shame as it's a nice piece of music. Also, just as an FYI, a great place to ask questions of this nature is over at Doctor Who Answers, a partner wiki to Tardis Data Core dedicated to answering very specific questions such as this one. #ShamelessPromotion
Thanks for help! I understood. This is exactly piece of music, at the title card "20 minutes later". I'll look on Doctor Who Answers or someplace. Thanks once again!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:185140
I'm new to the classic series and I was wondering who the companions the Eighth Doctor mentioned in "The Night of the Doctor" mini-episode, just before his regeneration, were, and can someone point me to their pages on this wiki so I can find out more about them? Thanks for the help in advance.
- Mewiet
Hi, Erinkenoibi2893.
The companions the Eighth Doctor mentions are not TV companions. They appear in Eight's Big Finish audio stories: Charley, C'rizz, Tamsin, and Molly.
- MystExplorer
Mewiet wrote: Hi, Erinkenoibi2893.
The companions the Eighth Doctor mentions are not TV companions. They appear in Eight's Big Finish audio stories: Charley, C'rizz, Tamsin, and Molly.
Don't forget Lucie Miller! And if you're wondering why he didn't mention any of his other audio companions (like Liv Chenka and Helen Sinclair), my guess is it's because he knew he had very little time left.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:185360
I've recently discovered an old skit from after Peter Davison had become the Doctor aired on an Australian breakfast channel where he was being interviewed alongside the Fifth Doctor. I briefly considered looking into to finding out more info for a page but then began to doubt if it deserved a page, as there are many TV shows where the Doctor will appear as himself to advertise a episode or event.
Then I thought, "shouldn't we try and cover that"? I thus would like to campaign for the creation of a page that would cover actors appearing as the Doctor on various shows throughout the years. I'm sure that it will be hard to look into but I feel like it's one of those articles that should exist. (obviously we'd limit this to the main 12 actors)
- DENCH-and-PALMER
Yes, I think we should.
- Quest?on
I don't see why we shouldn't.
- SOTO
We had a page like this somewhere, but I can't remember what the title is.
- RingoRoadagain
SOTO wrote: We had a page like this somewhere, but I can't remember what the title is.
Could you be refering to Cultural references to the Doctor Who universe or Doctor Who pastiches ?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:185951
Hi, first post on this wikia. I hope this isn't in the wrong place, I wouldn't consider it "speculation" because it doesn't seem to be anything to do with possible events. It's merely a question about if the community has discussed something already.
My brother and I have been noticing the number 57 showing up everywhere. I would have thought this would be something people noticed, but search upon search has yielded no discussion of it.
57 academics, TARDIS Type 57, Article 57 of the Shadow Proclamation, 57 being chosen as "a random number", and many more that I can't name specifically. Clearly, the writers are intentionally doing it.
Has there been any discussion among fans about this? And if so, can someone point me toward said discussion?
Doctor who is not the only series to have repeated references to 57 (Star Trek has had its fair share), but it certainly seems to do it the most often.
- OttselSpy25
Can't find any discussion. It's an interesting idea, but I will note that Type 57 isn't really significant as it's only barely mentioned and there are a lot of TARDISes.
- Tangerineduel
I know it's a thing in Star Trek for 47 to turn up often (until the production team tired of the joke).
As with OttselSpy25 I'm not aware of anything. I think as OttselSpy25 says we can discount the TARDIS type as there's multiple TARDIS Type numbers out there.
I think the 4 incidents that have been cited does not make a pattern. I think for there to be a pattern there'd have to be focused behind the scenes work for it to happen. Which means you'd have to look at a set of stories worked on by the same script editor or executive producers. Which for the former I think someone would have noticed in Classic Who and the patterns for New Who have been rather more obvious (arcs etc).
So that would leave the comics and Big Finish's audio productions to look for patterns, but again if there's a consistent narrative element in their stories they usually take the form of arcs rather than in jokes like this.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:186438
The Trickster's article states that he first appeared in Love and War. I was just wondering if there's any behind the scenes information that indicates Gareth Roberts intended him to be the same character from Paul Cornell's novel published 15 years earlier.
- SOTO
Do you have any passages from the book that might suggest they're the same character? I'm not sure authorial intent is the deciding factor. That said, without any evidence that they are intended to be the same character, I'd be inclined to dab both, and consider them as separate. Very interesting stuff, though...
- MystExplorer
I've never read the book so I'm afraid I can't comment on anything that happens in it. But I'd appreciate it if someone who has read it would chime in.
- MystExplorer
I asked Gareth Roberts about this on twitter and here's what he had to say: http://twitter.com/OldRoberts953/status/685543172102029317.
So I think it's safe to remove any mention of Love and War from the article.
- SOTO
Well we usually don't count real world info for anything, but if it wasn't the intent, I don't think the connection can be made. So does the Trickster from Love and War need his own article? Is he called "the Trickster"? (Question to the general public) If so, some disambiguation is at hand.
- DENCH-and-PALMER
Had Gareth Roberts intended the "Other Trickster" as part of the Trickster's Brigade, now that is the question.
- Bwburke94
The two Tricksters are disambiguated by story, then?
- SOTO
They would be. But I'm assuming here he's called "the Trickster" in the novel. If he isn't then maybe the Trickster would still be the SJA character, and Trickster (Love and War) would be the new article. If he is, then The Trickster (Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane?) and The Trickster (Love and War). Trickster should be a dab page either way.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:186545
There was some suit that allowed someone to "store" Their life or something in it, and I think a popular phrase in the episode was "Hey, Who turned off the lights?"
- SniperKing1
Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:186960
I'd appreciate some help. I'm currently working on The Silver Turk. When I started I thought I had all the available information. Since then I've found out that 1) the CDs have more production data than downloads, including a more detailed cast; 2) subscribers actually have scripts. For the CD info, I think I've found a source.
I was wondering if anyone actually has a script for this story and could either share it with me or answer questions about it, whichever is more convenient for him/her/it/them. The most important of my questions are those that affect page names as changing them later on is a bit messy. Here are the questions I have so far: 1) What is the spelling used in the script: Ringstraße or Ringstrasse? 2) What is the spelling used in the script: Dieter Walman, Dieter Wallmann, Dieter Walmann or something else?
Thank you in advance for your help (and feel free to collaborate on the actual wikification---there's a lot to do there).
- SOTO
You should consult user:AdricLovesNyssa on this one. I'm positive they have access to a physical copy of this story (because they uploaded the credits as part of our project collecting those a while back). Happy editing! :)
- AdricLovesNyssa
1) Ringstrasse
2) Dieter Wallmann
Oh and the Cybermen names are spelt with double mm's.
Are you planning on creating the articles? if not I'll write them as I listened to the story a couple of weeks ago
- Amorkuz
Thanks!!! This really helps. Good thing I haven't made the Cybermen pages yet.
In principle, it is my goal to wikify the whole Turk properly, including pages for all characters who speak or are likely to be mentioned in the plot. But I would certainly appreciate any help, be it in the form of advice, correction, information, or, yes, page creation.
Meanwhile I bumped into a seeming mistake on my part 3) Leopold Kraus or Leopold Krauss. I fear the latter.
- AdricLovesNyssa
Krauss unfortunately
- Amorkuz
Thanks. I'll put things up for renaming.
- SOTO
The page has been renamed. I was pleasantly surprised to see the links had been moved. You two should team up and see how it goes; we might have an editing duo yet. :)
(
Miss ya, Culty :/)Let me know what the next audio story you're working on is, Amorkuz, and I may well buy it (digital) and help.
- Amorkuz
Thanks, will do. This is not going to happen soon though: I'll need a lot of time to finish the Turk (holidays are such a waste of time).
- AdricLovesNyssa
Same here if you want help
- Amorkuz
You are both too kind. I really appreciate the help and the support.
But speaking of help, I have this nagging question. Suppose a person is mentioned in a story but is not present in it, e.g., Count Larisch. Should that be counted as an appearance in the infobox? I'm starting to think that it shouldn't be (the story will still be mentioned inline).
- Skittles the hog
No, we don't consider mentioned characters to have "appeared", though what actually constitutes an appearance is disputed. There used to be a "mentioned in" field in the infobox, but that was done away with.
You're right. Don't cite the story in the infobox, just in the main body.
- SOTO
As a general rule, infoboxes aren't needed for short articles where the same information is given in the text. One exception is that it's important to have an infobox to list the actor for a character. If a character is only mentioned, in one story, they very likely do not merit an infobox. In the case of Count Larisch, an infobox with just species should definitely be done away with.
(On an unrelated note, you're supposed to add a user= variable to {{speedy rename}} as well, so it says who made the request at T:SPEEDY. Page renamed, btw.)
- Amorkuz
Thanks.
- Amorkuz
Another issue I was not entirely decided on and would appreciate your input. The category Austro-Hungarian royalty is absolutely correct. However, I am hesitant to use Austria-Hungary in the text of any of the articles because Hungary is never mentioned in the story. It is, in fact, a bit confusing (perhaps, even a production error): Mary mentions Germany and Austria as countries. But Germany did not yet exist in 1816, where Mary is from, and Austria was part of Austro-Hungrian empire. There was a loose German Confederation in 1816, but Austria was part of it, so Mary could not have meant that. So in the end, I thought it is better to stick to the text of the story rather than to historical facts (in-universe perspective and all that).
- SOTO
Amorkuz wrote: So in the end, I thought it is better to stick to the text of the story rather than to historical facts (in-universe perspective and all that).
Oh yes, definitely. The DWU does not always match up with the real world, and we always record what we know of the Doctor Who universe, without allowing any real world creep.
Thanks for the info on this story's approach to Austrian history, which definitely seems incongruent with ours. How do you propose we approach this?
- Amorkuz
Germany is mentioned in passing only once. So far I put it in references with a link.
Austria did exist as an entity, so it is not incorrect to refer to Austria in both DWU and our universe. After all, Elisabeth was Empress of Austria and Quenn of Hungary in our universe too. Also all the events happen in Vienna, Austria (except perhaps the Cybermen ship crash, which is probably in unspecified location).
Thus, my proposal is, essentially, to hush the differences up. I guess the only important thing is to avoid calling Austria a country, which might be a bit controversial for the real world. Otherwise, it is fine to say that the events happen in Austria. I guess we shouldn't say that Austria is the origin of any character anyways because that is not stated in the story.
- SOTO
I think from a categorical perspective, it's fine to link them with Austrio-Hungarian royalty, because it would get complicated if we created a separate Austrian royalty category as well. In-article, though, it should only mention what is said.
- SOTO
Is there precedent in the script for the names Puppet Elisabeth of Austria and Puppet Johan Drossel? If not, it should maybe be Johan Drossel (puppet) or Johan Drossel (android) (I assume there's more basis for "puppet" in the script).
- Amorkuz
I agree regarding Austro-Hungarian royalty.
As for Puppet <person> I made it by analogy to Zygon <person>, e.g., Zygon Queen Elizabeth I. Android is, of course, never mentioned: it was simply the best category I could come up with. In the spoken text, they use the word automaton for the Silver Turk. The puppets are sometimes called marionettes (hence, Marionettenburg) but mostly puppets. I should mention that there are tons of these facsimile puppets (of Mitzi, of Mary, of Bratfisch, of the Doctor, etc.) that I didn't get around to creating pages for yet. So far there are only two pages I've created, Puppet Johan Drossel and Puppet Elisabeth of Austria) , so it's good to decide on the naming scheme before creating the others. To have a common naming scheme, it wouldn't be good to scout the text for the exact names used for each of them: they are likely to be different.
Perhaps, indeed, there is a common naming scheme used in the unspoken parts of the script. Then I would think we should use it. (If the script does not use the same scheme for Drossel though, it should be fine: him being a puppet is a big reveal at the very end.)
- AdricLovesNyssa
I'll have a read of the scripts soon, bit busy expanding UNIT: Extinction atm
- SOTO
For categories, if there are that many we should make a new category—something like category:Gramm puppets—under category:Individual androids (cat:Androids isn't actually for individuals). Oh and category:Imposters.
On a side note, I'd contest Marionettenburg's location category, but I can't figure out yet where in the category tree it might actually fit.
As for naming, I understand where you saw (fairly recent) precedence for that now. BUt there's also a lot of precedence for a dab name: Mickey Smith (Auton), and not auton Mickey Smith; Martha Jones (clone); Jennifer Lucas (Ganger). This is the naming scheme I personally am used to. In general, according to T:DAB is disambiguation is needed we add a parenthetical, not an additional word at the front. I would even contest those Zygon pages. In our case, the original humans by those names are the primary topics, and only the puppets would need disambiguation, as (puppet). I'll look into the case of the Zygon pages, but that is definitely an exception to the general rule, and perhaps one that shouldn't be there.
- Amorkuz
I don't have a preference between <person> (puppet) and Puppet <person>. So let's do what's right.
As for Marionettenburg, it's a bit tricky, I agree. It does exist as an attraction within the Vienna Exposition (across from the Silver Turk they say) where performances are given. But Drossel does use it in the abstract sense a lot as in "denizens of Marionettenburg." I'll have to relisten too to make sure what is meant.
- Amorkuz
Oh, and Category:Gramm puppets seems like a good idea. I'm on it. (Footnote, not all of them are impostors. But I think Columbinetta should also be added there.)
- SOTO
So individual pages will be added to impostors. Columbinetta should not be in there because it would be a category of individuals, but it can certainly be linked to in the category description.
- SOTO
AdricLovesNyssa, what's the spelling given in the script (end of part one) for chequers/checkers? There's an ongoing spelling debate on this one.
- Amorkuz
Dear AdricLovesNyssa,
I'm sorry but there is another one of names unsourceable otherwise. After Count Wittenmeier is attacked in the police station, the Doctor gives him some kind of medicine not yet available in the 19th century (this is Track 5 of Part 2). The name of the medicine sounds like hyper-F-iodine and is called a general anesthetic. I could not find an actual drug with such a name. Could you look up the spelling in the script?
Thanks in advance.
- AdricLovesNyssa
Hyper Eth-iodine
- Amorkuz
Another one. This one is from the beginning of Part 3. When Drossel returns to confront Mary, he asks a puppet to let her out. The puppet's name is something like Miguela. What is the exact spelling? Thanks in advance.
And the second one. Soon after, the Doctor returns to Mitzi. She says that she plans on sending her daughter to her sister to a city sounding like Linz. Problem is there are two cities in Austria: Linz and Lienz. How is this one spelled?
- 31.52.31.195
I can't find a line like that, maybe could you give me a line near it that I can easily locate this line?
- AdricLovesNyssa
I can't find a line like that, maybe could you give me a line near it that I can easily locate this line?
- Amorkuz
And a separate question with potentially long-reaching consequences. How does the script describe puppets based on real people. For instance the puppet of Mary? Is there some common naming scheme in the script for the puppets of Mary, Mitzi, the Doctor, the Empress, the Count, etc.? I can't create new pages for all of these, until we agree on the naming scheme, for which the script may have an effect.
- Amorkuz
Sorry, missed your message (did not expect it so soon, always a nice surprise):
For Miguella: "MARY: Let me out of here. DROSSEL: Of course, Countess. Miguella, let our guest out. Come on, chop-chop."
For Linz: "THE DOCTOR: Some people have no staying power. Hello, young lady, you're up early. MITZI: I'm sending her to my sister, in Linz."
- AdricLovesNyssa
Puppet Mary etc
Of course, countess, Brighella, let our guest out
and Linz is correct
- Amorkuz
Thanks. Brighella actually makes much more sense. It's a character from Commedia dell'arte, and Colombinetta who occurred earlier is a diminutive variant of Columbina, another character from there. I anticipate some nice "Behind-the-Scenes" sections.
- SOTO
I instantly recognised Brighella too. Fascinating, yeah. Commedia dell'arte? Nope, unfortunately not.
I guess now there is a precedent for something like "puppet [Character]". . .or "Zygon [Character]".
- Amorkuz
Now a question to everyone who reads. To avoid unnecessary renamings, I would prefer to decide on the naming scheme for puppet copies in advance. The way I understand it, there are more or less two suggestions
Puppet <Name> vs. Name (puppet)
For example, for the two pages I've created before I knew there might be a problem the choice is between
- Puppet Elisabeth of Austria (that might be eventually renamed to Puppet Sisi and Elisabeth of Austria (puppet) respectively Sisi (puppet) and
- Puppet Johan Drossel and Johan Drossel (puppet)
The argument for the currently implemented scheme, Puppet <Name> is that it is apparently used in the script (the cast is unhelpful here).
The argument for switching to <Name> (puppet) is that this scheme has been used before for entities that are copies of people, cf. Mickey Smith (Auton), Martha Jones (clone), Martha Jones (robot), Jennifer Lucas (Ganger), etc.
Please voice your opinion. I remain for the current scheme, now based on the scripts.
- Amorkuz
Happy New Year to everyone!
On this most useless of the days of the year, I promise that this would be the last batch of spelling questions for the story. They all are from Part 4. It is mostly about Cyberman technology. I think there is new things introduced in the story and I do not want to misspell them.
- Do the Cybermen really call Earth "the lost binary twin of Mondas"? It sounds weird but that's how I heard it.
- Cyber-Control is something that has appeared before, so I assume this should be the correct spelling even if the script says otherwise
- Bremm sacrifices himself by giving a neural generation unit from his head to Gramm?
- Is there any mention of a train in the script when Mary wanders the streets and Gramm finds her? How exactly is it called?
- Is it Cyber-ethics, Cyber ethics, or Cyberethics? (or with the lowercase C?)
- Is it super-light, superlight, supra-light, or supralight transmitter?
- Is it cellulose capacitor?
- Is it Cyber-inlays, Cyber inlays, or Cyberinlays? (or with the lowercase C?)
Sorry for a long list, but that's the end of spelling problems in the story, I believe.
- AdricLovesNyssa
1 GRAMM
In-correct. The crash of our scout craft corrupted our perceptions. This system’s star is our lost star. This planet is the lost binary twin of Mondas. Our mission is complete. We are the first to return.
2 no hyphen
3 BREMM (MORE CRACKLY) My systems are failing, Gramm. Remove the neural generation unit from my head. Adapt it as a transmitter to contact Mondas.
4 only mention of a train is in the FX: part of the script
5 Cyber-ethics
6 superlight
7 cellulose capacitor
8 cyber inlays
- Amorkuz
Thanks! And triple cheers!
- Amorkuz
Okay, now that Puppet Johan Drossel is to be deleted (see this talk page for the reasons), we only have one puppet character page in existence and many in the pipeline. This is the best possible time to change my stance on what this pages should be called. (In fact, I'd like to rename the only current puppet page, Puppet Elisabeth of Austria, too together with the page of the Empress herself, but that's a separate discussion.)
What happened is that CzechOut in an unrelated thread mentioned something that we all know. As we type in the search field, we only get 6 hits. Thus, if we have a lot of Pages called Puppet ... then searching among them becomes a pain in the neck. So I now take the position that I believe was advocated by SOTO from the very beginning: to call the puppet characters Rolf Wittenmeier (puppet), Mitzi Wittenmeier (puppet), Ernst Bratfisch (puppet) etc.
Sorry for taking so long to warm up to this convention, but it is really important for me to understand why.
- AdricLovesNyssa
Are you going to create pages for Bremm and Gramm soon? if not I might relisten to the story and do it, as I created (if I remember correctly) the other pages in this sotry
- Amorkuz
Actually, probably not really soon. Not earlier than in two weeks would I have time to do some long character pages. Johan Drossel's page I had to do to clean up my own mess. But without prior experience of creating complex character pages, I don't really like how it looks now. I'm actually working on it offline right now. So it would really help to see an example based on the material that is very fresh in my head. In short, I'd be happy if you do it. My current plan is, after I get Drossel in satisfactory (for me) form, to create pages for all the small characters. That is about the extent of time I expect to have in the coming two weeks.
- Amorkuz
I have a non-trivial question regarding the plot. I managed to circumvent this in writing of the plot (I hope). But it does affect how many character pages we are to create.
Are there two or one Puppet Doctors?
You see, the Doctor says that he destroyed all of Drossel's/Gramm's puppets. And Mitzi leaves the house only with Alfred, seemingly; they do not take the Puppet Doctor whom we meet in the cellar. So where does the Silver Doctor from the post-credit sequence at the end come from? Is it the same one from the cellar who miraculously escaped the Doctor and even more miraculously found Alfred and Mitzi? Or is it a new puppet created by Stahlbaum after the events of the story? To be honest, I am baffled? I have no good answer. I'm not sure the story provides any indication.
Thoughts?
- AdricLovesNyssa
btw Amorkus it's Hannalore in the script (I'll check the cd when I get back home)
- Amorkuz
Oh, I apologize. I misremembered: I've added several lines to the cast based on a website that puts details of the CD packing online (I myself own a download, not a CD). And I thought that this Hannalore was among them. When I checked the website again to verify the cast order is correct as per the policy, I've noticed that she is spelled Hannolore there. So I naturally assumed that I mistyped her name and corrected it. I even checked this thread to see if you gave me the correct spelling of her name. I am starting to vaguely remember now: did you add her to the cast yourself? If so, I think I should undo my edit first and then wait for the CD cast verdict.
- Amorkuz
In other news, I think I've come up with a definitive proof that there are two puppets of the Doctor. I will describe the proof on the talk page of the story. I propose the following names for them:
Eighth Doctor (puppet) and Silver Doctor.
UPD: Silver Doctor already has a page. Great!
- 31.52.31.195
I changed it myself after the first initial question
- AdricLovesNyssa
I changed it myself when I noticed the discrepancyu
- Amorkuz
See, I just could not remember what exactly had happened. Sorry about this.
- Amorkuz
Maybe we can still use it for good. So what happened is: I trusted you when you made the correction, then forgot how the correction was made, and changed it back.
This can happen again if somebody finds the same cite as me (or if I get completely bananas and forget again). Thus, I suggest, after the spelling is checked against the CD's full cast, to make a note on the talk page of the story, for posterity.
- Amorkuz
Apparently I spoke too soon. I finally came to finish the job of wikifying the play. And once again, I can't do it properly without the help of the script. There are several attraction names being shouted by barkers in the background the first time the Doctor and Mary come to the Vienna Exposition (Part 1, Track 5). I can only make out clearly the last call "The Grand Temple of Kyoto." Does the script actually state these background lines? If so, does it differentiate between multiple barkers? At the very minimum I would like to create pages for the attractions. But if the script mentions barkers, then I'll have to create pages for the barkers too.
As always, I am really grateful for your help, whenever you have time.
- AdricLovesNyssa
The line is
This way to the tearooms / Visit the Temple of Kyoto / Ladies and Gentlemen, the Machine Hall is open / British Biscuits – at the Emporium now!
- Amorkuz
Thanks!!! Do I understand correctly that the designation is
Barkers: This way to the tearooms /....
?
- AdricLovesNyssa
yeah there is also a stage direction of scattered under dialogue
- Amorkuz
It's really scattered very skillfully: I could barely make out what they're saying. Thanks again.
- AdricLovesNyssa
you're welcome
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:187336
The Doctor's pocket watch in the 1996 TV movie played a song when opened by Chang Lee, but I can't remember what the tune was. Can anyone help? Thanks in advance!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:187346
Can anyone find me a picture of the Matrix Ood in Hell Bent. Thanks.
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:187389
Who'd like to see the Slitheen return on audio or tv in a more sinister fashion.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:187602
What exactly is the cause for the Ood's rapid evolution, of their species and civilization, after they had all been freed, allowing the Oods brain, and their freedom? Even the Doctor seemed shocked and curious, about the extreme rapidity of the evolutionary advancement happening so rapidly?
- Doctor: Something's accelerating your species way beyond normal.
- Ood Sigma: And the mind of the Ood is troubled.
- Doctor: Why? What's happened?
- Sigma: Every night, Doctor. Every night we have bad dreams.
- cut to:
- Elder Ood: Returning, returning, returning, it is slowly returning. Through the dark and the fire and the blood, always returning. Returning to this world. It is returning and he is returning and they are returning, but too late, too late, far too late, he has come.
- Then the Doctor joins their collective dream, and it's about the Master laughing and the history of the Simm Master from the end of S3.
- Then the Elder Ood specifically says:
- Elder Ood: The Ood have gained this power to see through time because time is bleeding. Shapes of things once lost are moving through the veil. And these events from years ago threaten to destroy this future. And the present and the past.
So basically the Ood's rapid development is because of the Master/Gallifrey/Time Lords returning. It is a herald of, as the Elder Ood says, "the end of time itself".
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:187604
Why did the Eleventh Doctor suddenly develop a strong dislike of Ood kind? Ten seemed rather fond of them?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:188336
Need to work this out, letters I have are;
l, o, r, i, x, d
Do you know a character from a christmas special that use these letters? (Help needed urgently)
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:188761
The pagoda's description matches the control room illustration
- Bwburke94
That seems too much like speculation.
- PicassoAndPringles
In Sanctuary, one of only two stories to feature the Jade Pagoda, it is very much a separate thing. The Seventh Doctor and Benny actually leave the tertiary control room to go to the Jade Pagoda, which is kind of like an escape pod, when things start going wrong in the TARDIS.
- 2.124.191.164
Ah, thanks. I thought they were separate but the descriptions & illustration seemed very similar, with the mirror/scanner and so on.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:191202
Just wondering, which comic book(s) did the Glory appear in?
- 23.233.84.241
I believe it only appeared in The Glorious Dead.
- The Doctor - Time Lord Victorious
Oh, Thank you. I searched it up and it is the correct comic.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:192047
I know that one of the DWM has a timeline for the Seventh Doctor which states that he picked up Peri before A Cold Day in Hell! (comic story), does anyone know which one?
- PicassoAndPringles
Could "Stripped for action?" be what you're referring to?
- TheChampionOfTime
Ah! That's exactly what I was thinking of. Thanks!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:192276
Another spelling question. Mary's Story features yet another of many regeneration inhibitors: vitreous time. There is little explanation of what it is, let alone how it's spelled. Currently, this is only mentioned on the Regeneration page with the spelling vitrious, which is not in a dictionary. The word vitreous is but it is hard to say whether it is the one meant. If anyone has the script of Mary's Story, I'd appreciate it if they could tell the correct answer.
If the script is not available, should we assume the dictionary spelling was meant? Any thoughts?
- SOTO
I'd say if we can't find a source for "vitrious" as a spelling, we should assume that it was written that way on regeneration in error, and the actual, existing word, "vitreous", was meant in the script. "Vitrious" just seems to be a local spelling mistake.
- Amorkuz
I'm all for it.
- CzechOut
Scripts should never be used to determine spelling of ordinary English words. They are typically written under tremendous pressure of time, and mistakes are highly likely. It's definitely vitreous.
(In fact the vitreous nature of time is graphically shown to us in the series 2 finale, where Ten breaks glass in Torchwood London to show how easy it is to screw up time. This, um, shattering event would have likely been fresh in the minds of the writers of 2009's Mary's Story, since we know BF plays are typically produced at least a year before they're released.)
- Revanvolatrelundar
The same script names Eighth Doctor companion Destrii as "Destrey", so it's more than likely that it's a typo.
- Amorkuz
Thank you all for answering my question. My hesitation stemmed from two sources, both resolved now. First, CzechOut explained in which sense time can be seen as vitreous. Second, there does not seem to be an in-universe object behind the other spelling (I was thinking of something along the lines of Kamelion sounding similar to "chameleon").
Regarding the use of scripts, I understand they are not a primary source. But I still envy those who have them: scripts do make editing simpler if treated with caution and, yes, primarily for proper names. For instance, I would never have been able to properly spell Brighella without the help of the script. If a dictionary or encyclopaedic word is outside of my vocabulary, a script is really helpful, even a script with a typo.
- SOTO
Of course, Google's always nice, too.
- Amorkuz
Sure. Google, Merriam-Webster, Oxford Dictionary, Wikipedia. With one caveat: it is sometimes hard to distinguish between a new word invented for the story and a word that exists but that I am not aware of. For the latter, of course, one should try all possible spellings and eventually find it in Google. But when I think that the word does not exist, it is natural to give up googling after 3-4 attempted spellings.
Here is an example: I tried several of Fircad/Fercad/Furkad and found nothing. I was sure that this is just an invented planet, but it turned out to be a well-known (though not to me) star, Pherkad, again courtesy of the script.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:192719
Would Victoria have been wearing a corset during Evil of the Daleks/beginning of Tomb of the Cybermen?
- Mister Fifty
I would think not. When they're in the TARDIS (at the beginning of Tomb of the Cybermen) and the Doctor is explaining about it, he says "Now, I think Victoria might find that dress a little impracticable if she's going to join us in our adventures" and Jamie helps her find something else...much shorter, it turns out. My guess is that if the dress was impracticable, a corset would be as well and she'd remove it.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:193042
I assumed, when watching "Bad Wolf," that the name "the Oncoming Storm" first appeared in that episode. However, I was reading "Vampire Science" and the Doctor referred to himself using that title. That makes me wonder--how long has the title been used, and when and in what medium did it first appear?
- PicassoAndPringles
It was first used in the Seventh Doctor novel Love and War by Paul Cornell. It's been used a couple other times outside the tv series; see Aliases of the Doctor for a full listing.
- ErinKenobi2893
PicassoAndPringles wrote: It was first used in the Seventh Doctor novel Love and War by Paul Cornell. It's been used a couple other times outside the tv series; see Aliases of the Doctor for a full listing.
So we can assume Moffat or Davies has read those books, or was it ubiquitous among fans at that point, whether you'd read the books or not? (By the way, thanks for the answer! :-D)
- PicassoAndPringles
Davies almost certainly has, especially considering he wrote a book in the same series a few years later, Damaged Goods. Moffat has said he read "quite a few" of the earlier New Adventures novels.
- ErinKenobi2893
Thanks! That clears up my question very well. :-)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:193124
In the Star Trek Expanded Universe, it's very common for the same character to have different names in different books. For example, Lieutenant Leslie's first name is "Ed" or "Frank" or "Ryan" depending on which book you're reading. Has anything like that every happened in Doctor Who?
- PicassoAndPringles
Off the top of my head, "John" in The Abominable Snowmen. He's just John in the episode, but in two different novelisations, he's named "Mackay" and "Angus Mackay". Then, a novel gave his full name as "John Angus Mackay".
I'm sure there are other examples, but I can't think of them right now.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:193264
There has to be a list somewhere of all the official Dr Who adventures (preferably in chronological order from the Dr's perspective). I don't just mean episodes, but also radio shows, minisodes, books, etc...
I can't imagine someone hasn't already put this together, but I'm having trouble finding it - can anyone help me locate it?
That being said, we do have a section of the wiki where users can play around with the order of stories. You can find it at Theory:Timey-wimey detector.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:194194
Sorry for bothering the community again. I hoped to get the spelling from open sources and the audio itself. But it isn't enough. If anyone has the script to the second audio of the Mary Shelley trilogy, I'd appreciate their help. My main question for now is how to spell the species name. I always thought they were Veraxils. But then they called their planet Varax Beta (Varex Beta?), which would suggest that they themselves are Varaxils. Since the two main characters' pages, Lucern and Finicia have to be renamed to include the species name, it's strongly preferable to use the correct spelling from the beginning. Thank you in advance.
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:194199
I've noticed a seeming inconsistency about the guys who basically lived forever and, though off-screen, inhabited every single century in a rather wide range. On the one hand each century page carries an (identical) notice about them living through this century (cf. e.g. 10th century). On the other hand, the immortals themselves are not put into every century's category. Jack is seemingly only in the categories for the centuries we saw him (despite being buried for about 2000 years and clearly being there). Ashildr seems to be in every century until The Woman Who Lived and then there is a curious gap between that and Face the Raven. I would be in favor of just adding all categories to them (especially to Ashildr who lived till the end of the universe), but wanted to first check if there is some clever thinking behind the current state of affairs.
- MystExplorer
There's a concern about "overcategorization" on this wiki. I think adding every single century someone lived through would make the category section look messy. Just having the category "immortals" is enough to let us know they live forever (more or less).
- Amorkuz
So, just to be clear, you propose to remove some centuries from Ashildr?
And I have a second question: what to do with those who were given an immortality/long life but not forever. The particular example I was looking at is Agnes Bates from The Witch from the Well. She lived locked up in a modified state for 350 years, and then became human again. The audio only shows her in two centuries. I would assume that for persons who are not completely immortal all centuries they lived through should be stated, right?
- MystExplorer
I'm not saying we should remove centuries, just that adding more is unnecessary. As for cases like the one you mentioned, I think more people would have to weigh in before we did anything about it.
- Shambala108
To quote from Tardis:What categories are not: "Categories are not a substitute for writing the article. Don't add a category to a page unless you've justified that addition in the text of the article itself."
So in this case, if there is no story evidence that someone was alive and present on Earth (since centuries are based on Earth dating) during a particular century, we don't add the category.
Think about it this way: this is Doctor Who. Anything can and will happen (and probably already has). One day some author might write a story about some immortal being off-Earth for a particular century, in which case the character would not belong in the category for that century.
- Amorkuz
Thank you for the clarification. The authorial view---can I invent a way for them to drop out for a century---is very useful. Especially, given how inventive authors have been. I keep thinking about The Transit of Venus that was inserted in between The Sensorites and The Reign of Terror despite the fact that in the original TV series The Reign of Terror follows directly from The Sensorites. And this insertion made sense.
So my internal understanding of "story evidence that someone was alive and present" is now the following: there must be an evidence of a particular event involving someone doing something on Earth at a particular time during the century.
I hope I got it.
- SOTO
That's also why you wouldn't (or shouldn't) add 20th century individuals to someone who chronologically seems to have been alive then despite only actually meeting them in the 21st. If it's just a character we meet in the 21st century, and we don't even hear anything about them as children, they don't really belong in the already over-populated 20th.
- Amorkuz
SOTO wrote: add 20th century individuals to someone who chronologically seems to have been alive then despite only actually meeting them in the 21st.
It was 18th century, but yes, you got me. I'm sorry. I thought that being humans on the 18th-century Earth and historical figures and gallivanting abroad in 1816, one could infer that their childhood was in the 18th century. I see the error of my ways now. Especially given that Mary's first trip abroad with Percy (in real universe) did happen when she was only 16. I'll clean this up.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:194256
There is a period in English history of 17th century when there was no king. Charles I was executed in January 1649. Charles II ascended the throne in May 1660. In between the country was ruled by Parliament and/or the Lord Protectors (not sourced in DWU). Some stories, such as The Witch from the Well, date their events by dropping hints about the Parliament, the Lord Protectors, or referring to Cromwell. But the Wiki does not, at the moment, contain enough information to convert such hints into reliable dates. I could not find the mention of Lord Protectors at all. Rump parliament is mentioned but no page for it exists. The dates of Oliver Cromwell's rein are not separated from those of his son's. I hope that this information is present in DWU. GusF points to The Roundheads as a possible source. If someone could add this information to the Wiki, it would be most appreciated.
- Amorkuz
UPD: I ended up buying The Roundheads (by mistake). So the information is verified and added in several places.
Thanks to Mister Fifty for pointing out a typo.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:194657
I need to create a page for a nameless character, a priest. On the one hand, he does not do anything in the story. On the other hand, the Doctor sees a grey husk of his body with all the life-force sucked. So is that an appearance? The answer determines the dab term, of course. Should it be Priest (The Witch from the Well) (if it is an appearance) or Priest (Tranchard's Fell) (otherwise). He has no importance to the story whatsoever. Could be easily replaced with peasant by the writer.
- Bwburke94
I see no reason a corpse isn't an appearance, because the character does technically appear.
- Amorkuz
Yes, that was my feeling too.
As an additional argument in favour of it being an appearance, actors playing corpses are often credited even when no flashbacks are shot. Surely, a character mentioned in the cast must be appearing in the story.
- SOTO
The character originated in that story, thus it gets the dab term. Even if a priest was simply talked about in that story, it would still get the storied dab term, per the usual convention (T:DAB).
- Amorkuz
The reason I am asking is because the language of T:DAB only talks about appearances and there is a forum thread discussing what constitute an appearance. This is why I thought this is not a trivial matter. I think it was discussed at some point that Empress Elisabeth should not be called "Sisi (The Silver Turk)" because she never actually appears in the story, she is just mentioned by the characters. So I feel that there must be a more nuanced rule, perhaps, distinguishing characters only mentioned in one story from characters from the real universe and characters mentioned in many stories but not occurring in any of them.
- Borisashton
This thread should be closed as the issue is resolved; Priest (The Witch from the Well) was created on 6 June 2016. Even if there is further discussion to be had it should probably take place at Thread:141930 which is the currently open "What is an appearance?" debate.
- Schreibenheimer
Agreed that this should be closed. I revived the other thread yesterday and incorporated this question into it.
Specific discussion (how to deal with the priest page) has already been dealt with and implemented.
There is a major discussion (how to handle corpse appearances) but this is part of the ongoing discussion at Thread:141930.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:194906
I'm pretty sure I've heard the Sixth Doctor mention dolly the sheep in a Big Finish. Does anyone know which story that was?
- CzechOut
Open for a year without reply. No takers.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:194953
In most of the pages of the Companions of the Doctor, the wiki states "At some point, X was taken to the Black Archive by UNIT to have his/her record as a companion of the Doctor taken. His/Her memories of the visit were subsequently erased and he/she was sent on her way. (TV: The Day of the Doctor).
While looking through the Companion pages and finding this, I think it would be very unlikely that every companion would have wound up at the Black Archive to have their memories erased. For example; Jamie wound up back in Scotland. Romana I regenerated, Zoe was sent back to the wheel.
Just looking for other opinions and to start a discussion. Thanks
Problem is, a) we shouldn't be making such a big leap of faith without having something clearer in-frame or in-script and b) just because you have a picture of someone doesn't mean that you took it.
If you look carefully, you can see that Clara's pictures are bar-coded in a modern, 21st century way, and are of her alongside Kate at the Archives.
But older companions haven't had their pictures processed that way. It's exceptionally clear at one point that Nyssa's picture came from an old UNIT file, and that she's wearing her costume from around the time of Mawdryn Undead.
In fact, all of the "classic" companions have accompanying paperwork which uses older variants of the UNIT logo and none of which is marked classified in any way.
I think you'd have to reallllllly stretch to believe that a) every single companion is on the board and b) that they made it to the Black Archives.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:195163
Amsterdam is in the category of cities visited by the Second Doctor. This cannot be attributed to The Roundheads. So where is this coming from?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:195859
I've reached a point where my fuzzy understanding of the distinctions is becoming annoying (and possibly counterproductive). So I'd be grateful for any kind of clarification. I strongly suspect that exact boundaries are hard to describe, but already an approximate definition would help. Actually, more to the point I'd appreciate a practical advice in some recent/upcoming cases.
My perception is that Notes are for out-of-universe things, References are for in-universe objects/individuals and Continuity is for in-universe plot elements. Is this generally correct?
For instance, IMHO Hanging Gardens of Slarvia is clearly a reference in Hacked: it's mentioned for the first time. And the Eye of Orion in the same story is a clear continuity because it was claimed to be the most tranquil place in two other stories. Question: is the mention of Dæmons in the same story a reference or a continuity? There is a picture of one and they are mentioned to be powerful. But they are not really connected with plot elements of other stories? Or does it depend solely on whether a particular referenced story can be identified or not? Although it is always possible to cite the first story they appeared in.
Similarly, IMHO Colonel Sanders is a reference in Weapons of Past Destruction. But it cannot be understood without the out-of-universe connection to the KFC, seemingly belonging to Notes. Can the note be combined with the reference in References? Or should it be moved to Notes completely since it makes no sense purely within DWU? Or should there be separate unrelated note and reference? What is the best practice?
- Shambala108
I've actually been working on a description of these three things to post on the Board:The Time Lord Academy, so if you can wait a bit, it will be coming soon.
Your definitions are basically correct, but there are nuances that I want to clear up.
- Amorkuz
That's great, thanks.
- Shambala108
Incidentally, you can find some general guidelines at Tardis:Format for television stories and other similar pages in Category:Layout guides. However, most of these are just basic descriptions that don't really thoroughly cover what is and isn't wanted on story pages.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:196010
If you respect the archaeologist River Song as much as I do, it feels fair to date her stories to a T, even if it means some extra effort. I would like to do just that for the audio story The Boundless Sea. It is said to take place the next year after the tomb of Tut-Ankh-Amen was discovered. What I am searching for is the information about the year of that discovery in the DWU.
The two stories in the title seem to be the ones most likely to contain that information. Unfortunately, I do not own them, so I am asking for assistance in finding out. The Gods Walk Among Us takes place in 1926. It mentions the discovery of the King Tut's tomb, but it is not clear from the Wiki page alone when that happened. Sure it is reasonable to infer that it was recent, say between 1920 and 1926. But is the actual year of discovery (1922 in the real universe) stated? Please help.
- AeD
I found the following possibly relevant information in The Gods Walk Among Us:
- "Egypt, 1926. Fired by the discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb, archeologists dug many new sites in their search for history... fame... or fortune."
- The archeologist says the sealed tomb (not King Tut's) has been "unopened for 5,500 years."
- Tothmes says this new style of tomb "will stand a thousand thousand generations."
- The archeologist compares the Sontaran tomb to King Tut: "This creature... it's not of this Earth. I'll be famous! Tutankhamun was nothing compared to this!"
- When the Sontaran flees, the narration says "But even this has been foreseen. In Egypt, everything is timeless... even instructions 5,500 years old..."
So nothing directly relevant. Will look at The King of Golden Death in a second.
- Amorkuz
Thanks a lot! I agree that the year cannot be determined from the comic strip. Keeping my fingers crossed.
- AeD
The King of Golden Death:
- "In all the long history of the Ancient Egyptians, practically every tomb [...] has been ransacked by tomb-robbers, [etc]. One notable exception was the tomb of the boy King, Tut-Ankh-Amen. Now wouldn't it be most strange if we discover that lost tomb, three thousand years before Howard Carter found it, in 1923."
Still have to finish reading it, but unless something directly contradictory comes up, I think that settles it: in the DWU, Howard Carter discovered King Tut's tomb in 1923.
- Amorkuz
That's perfect. Once again, thanks from the bottom of my heart. Would you do the honours of adding this info to the story's page? Or should I?
On my side, I'd like to add that this is not a mistake on the writer's part. When I looked more closely, in the real universe, Carter made the first breach in the outer wall of the tomb and saw the famous "wonderful things" in November 1922, but the burial chamber with the sarcophagus was opened only in February 1923. I'll add this to the BHS (in the evening).
- AeD
I've corrected the year listed in the setting box for The Boundless Sea (audio story), and added the basic fact of the year to The King of Golden Death (short story), Tut-Ankh-Amen, and Howard Carter.
- Amorkuz
Sorry for off-topic. But I've just noticed that Howard Carter, the discoverer of the tomb, was voiced in the audio story False Gods by... Benedict Cumberbatch.
Mind blown.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:196727
November 23 is the date the series began. But, does the Doctor have an Officially celebrated Birthday Date?
- AeD
Though Missy seems to be aware enough of one to celebrate it, there's no specific date that I'm aware of that's ever come up as "this is the day on Earth's Gregorian calendar that the Doctor would celebrate his birthday on."
Of course, because time travel, the Doctor is almost certainly out-of-sync from whatever the date, be it Gregorian or Gallifreyan, of his birth would be.
The only real remnant of this idea is an off-hand remark in The Power of Kroll, a few serials after TSOB, in which Four claims to be "nearly 760".
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:196891
Can anybody give me a definitive list of In-Universe stories that mark the anniversary of Doctor Who or its numerous spin-offs.
- CzechOut
No, because it's not definitive.
While there are obvious cases like Five and Day -- both of which were screened outside of a regular series and heavily hyped as anniversary stories -- there are others where anniversary status is subjective. And there are still others, like the comic that was in DWM 500, where the anniversary is not about Doctor Who but the magazine. And there are several Big Finish releases -- like Circular Time -- of this type. (And neither are really anniversaries, but celebrations of hitting a particular release number.)
In 2013, some users had attempted to add categories around this subject, and discussion reversed and deleted these attempts.
If I remember correctly, there was controversy about what exactly constituted the complete anniversary story. If The Night of the Doctor were to be included, what was the rationale for excluding The Name of the Doctor? And since Name had flashbacks to the entirety of Clara's existence, what was to logically stop someone from including The Snowmen or particularly The Rings of Akhaten, which explained the story of the leaf that was so crucial to the resolution of Name? I think, too, it was pointed out that even The Three Doctors wasn't really the tenth anniversary story, since it actually appeared only weeks after the ninth anniversary. (Tagging Three as the "tenth anniversary" story is even more complicated, but we'll leave that to another time.) And there arose the question of stories that weren't advertised as anniversaries but were only claimed so after the fact, as was the case with at least one comic and novel.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:203077
i have a question how many doctor who spin offs are there i tried looking on the page but it got confusing here are the ones i know tell me if i am missing any please
Sarah Jane Adventures K9 and Company torchwood k9 austrailan spin off dreamland And Class 2016 can anyone tell me if i am missing any note i do not count doctor who extra because it is about the filming not what happens in the universe
- Shambala108
The answer depends on what you consider a spin-off. Are you interested in the prose, audio, comic, etc spin-offs? If so, there are quite a few.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you covered all the TV spin-offs.
- Alexj98
does doctor who extra count because I would not count it
- Alexj98
there are some I'm not sure about as well like
doctor who extra tardisodes dreamland dalek movies with peter cushin
- SOTO
There is no official list or definition of a Doctor Who spin-off.
According to some interpretations, Doctor Who Extra and Doctor Who Confidential might count as a spin-off. K9 might not even count, according to some definitions, as it's not BBC-licensed and merely features a major character from the Doctor Who universe.
See our page Doctor Who spin-offs for our list of spin-offs.
- DENCH-and-PALMER
I believe that a spin off is a fictitious continuation of the series. Such as SJA, TW, K9&C, K9, Mindgame, Auton, P.R.O.B.E. and Class. To name a few on screen ones.
DW Confidential and DW Extra are behind the scenes programmes, documentaries... I'd try to avoid using spin off but that's just me.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:205316
Can someone provide me with a photo scan or picture of the Inlay for the The Last Adventure: The End of the Line. The page with Chris Finley as the Master and there are some quotes? The whole page is ideal if not just the middle - best wishes. -- Denchen: Lord of all that is invalid ☎ 22:10, December 3, 2016 (UTC)
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:205839
In the episode Rose, why did Rose Tyler ask the 9th Doctor why he sounded like he was from the North?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:205913
In The End of the World, why was Rose angry about the TARDIS translation circuit?
When she says that the aliens speak English, the Doctor explains that the TARDIS puts a telepathic field into her head and translates languages. However, she got furious and asks why he didn’t ask. What did she mean? Ask what?
I thought she’d be happy or pleased, because it makes her understand what they’re saying.
Then she ask questions that he refused to answer (who he is and where he's from), making him defensive and very angry. How very surprising.
It makes her understand what they're saying. If she never had a telepathic field in her brain, it wouldn't be able to translate alien languages. She'd hear them speak in their own languages and she wouldn't be able to understand them.
- Jack "BtR" Saxon
She doesn't like that the Doctor has done this to her without her permission or knowledge.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:206091
Performing a rehaul of Clockwork Droids, Clockwork robots and the like, the Clockwork page has become free of the robots, which were restricting the content of the page.
Consequently, I have a request to all of you. If you can remember some cool important piece of clockwork technology in the DWU, please, add it to the page. The Great Clock and the Doomsday Chronometer are already there, as well as Big Ben, but there must be more. Also I remember the Doctor always admiring a good piece of clockwork, but can't remember exact stories. A little help?
- CzechOut
Well, the sheer number of old-school clocks in the TVM TARDIS surely suggests a love of clockwork. And Ten explicitly appreciates the clockworkiness of the Clockwork Droids.
An obvious place to look for appreciation of clockwork is Eight's Time Works audio. It's replete with clockwork, of course, but I can't quite remember what Eight has to say on the general subject -- largely cause he's awfully busy running from the Clockwork Men.
There's also a prominent clock in Caerdroia but I don't think Eight exactly appreciates it. It's more of a clue for how to get out of the peril in the story.
And Nine calls clockwork figures "clever" in The Clockwise Man, but he's probably being sarcastic.
I dunno -- there are probably others. Maybe bumping this not-terribly-old thread will help others see it and give better answers?
- JagoAndLitefoot
Hecuba's clocks in The Queen of Time
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:206273
1. In The End of the World, why did the 9th Doctor refuse to tell Rose Tyler who he is and where he's from?
2. Why did Rose wanted to know who the Doctor is and where he's from?
3. When Rose demanded the Doctor to tell her where he's from and who he is, he said "This is who I am, right here, right now, all right? All that counts is here and now, and this is me!" What did he mean by that?
4. Rose said "Yeah, and I'm here too because you brought me here, so just tell me!" What did she mean by that?
5. When he took her home on Earth in 2005 after she saw the planet burn up and there was nothing but rocks and dust in 5 Billion, why did he finally told her about the Time War, the death of his people, his planet burned and that he is the last of his species?
- Danniesen
And why do you ask this?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:206274
Why did Scottish actor David Tennant play the 10th Doctor in a English accent, instead of his own?
- Danniesen
And why do you ask this?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:207771
I recall there being a motion comic about Amy and Rory, set during Let's Kill Hitler, that was a DVD extra. What was its name?
- DENCH-and-PALMER
Doctor Who Motion Comic
This is what you're looking for.
- Pluto2
DENCH-and-PALMER wrote: Doctor Who Motion Comic
This is what you're looking for.
Yes, it is! Thanks.
- DENCH-and-PALMER
Pluto2 wrote:
DENCH-and-PALMER wrote: Doctor Who Motion Comic
This is what you're looking for.
Yes, it is! Thanks.
Anytime pal
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:209188
In Terror of the Autons, why did Jo Grant tell the Third Doctor to stop being childish?
What's wrong with being childish? He like being childish. Doctor 25 ☎ 14:10, January 11, 2017 (UTC)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:209208
Given that Peter Glaze played the important role of the City Administrator, (see the trivia section at http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/sensorites/detail.shtml ) shouldn't he be listed as such rather than "Third Sensorite"?
- SOTO
Per T:CAST, the cast lists on TV story pages are to be written exactly as broadcast. So if it said Third Sensorite in the credits, which it did, that's how he's listed here. But perhaps the actual page Third Sensorite should be renamed to City Administrator (The Sensorites).
- Amorkuz
Yes, I would second the renaming of the page, if only because it is much more informative.
- SOTO
I have added a {{rename}} tag to the page.
- Thefartydoctor
I third that suggestion. Good idea, guys. :)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:209416
can anyone explain this to me ive watched destiny of the daleks and I found this image of one of the rebellion trying to kill the daleks but when I watched it on the dvd there was not blast
- Borisashton
It was probably fixed for the DVD release.
- Alexj98
what does that mean
- Alexj98
just cuz I watched it on the dvd
- Thefartydoctor
Before they release a DVD or video, they sometimes digitally enhance it by adding CGI. Some examples are the second version of The Five Doctors, which changed Tom Baker and Lalla Ward's scenes altogether, and which changed the Time Scoop from 2D to 3D. Other cases are updating The Ark in The Ark in Space to look more realistic, rather than a plastic model and updating gunfire to make it look less like 80s special effects.
In your case with this Movellan, it seems it was used to fix a plot hole of a gun not being fired yet something blew up. In the re-release, they added a firing of the gun to cause the explosion.
P.S. - this could also be a fan edit.
- Alexj98
ok tnks
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:210800
how much cgi does modern doctor who use and how much do classics change
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:211063
how many warrior races are there in doctor who I can think of the daleks the sontarans the ice warriors
- SOTO
- Alexj98
why are the Sycorax not included
- Alexj98
or the hath
- SOTO
I don't think the Hath are inherently a military species. They were engaged in a war with the humans, but their culture is not built on war, like the Sontarans'. I'm unsure if the same applies to the Sycorax.
- Alexj98
I was wrong about the sycorax there culture is not based on war
- Xx-connor-xX
Yea don't think the Sycorx would be included.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:211423
do the dominators have weapons of there own or do they just use the quarks
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:211924
Why don't any of the Time Lords, except those in league with him and the Doctor, know about the Master in this story? Additionally why is there no recollection of him in the files? The Time Lords were the ones who warned the Doctor of him when he came to Earth.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:212353
Just wondering what this wiki has o t These videos as there doesn't seem to be mueche online or on this wiki about
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:212746
What I'd like to know is:
- How the Second Doctor knows who the Tremas-Master is in "The Five Doctors"? He didn't show up until the Third Doctor era, and the First Doctor didn't know who he was.
- Why does the Second Doctor operate a TARDIS console (as well as the room itself) that wasn't his in "The Two Doctors"? I know the real-world reason, but what is the in-universe reason. And how is he suddenly able to steer it properly?
- 5.2.105.85
Unless there is a perception filter (like the Tremas Master used on the Fifth Doctor) Time Lords often know each other (as was explained in The Sound of Drums).
The First Doctor may not have noticed straight away, whereas the Second Doctor did.
I don't really understand your second question, however the Fifth Doctor could operate the Tenth Doctor's TARDIS in Time Crash.
- 151.225.76.177
To answer your second question, you want to check the article on season 6b, set between 'The War Games' & 'Spearhead from Space'.
Also, (spoilers) in the Big Finish story 'The Black Hole' the Doctor's TARDIS blends with the Monk's, which reconfigures the control room. Hope this was useful :-)
- Danniesen
Thanks. As long as there's an explanation, I can accept it.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:213483
The text of the comic was not enough for me to figure out what it refers to:
An old friend of mine--well, enemy, really--once tried to create a new universe to rule maniacally--or something like that--I lost interest early into his monologue. I put a few minus symbols before his calculations, so it ended up a wee bit smaller than he planned. I've got it in my pocket. An entire universe all to himself, no other life-forms whatsoever. If you listen closely, you can hear him calling me all sorts of names
In the absence of proper names, I couldn't find this story. If it rings a bell for anyone, help is appreciated.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:213783
If the Olympian Prometheus created all life in the universe, what created the Olympians?
- JagoAndLitefoot
Possibly they came from a different universe?
- OttselSpy25
The answer you probably don't want to hear is that they're gods and thus no one created them.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:213980
Jack Harkness was described as a fixed point in time and space but a "wrong" one at that. Are there other examples of wrong fixed points to which time-sensitive individuals/equipment have an adverse reaction?
The idea of this question came from CoT who suggested that a similar thing happened in AUDIO: Sword of Orion.
- Amorkuz
Here is an exact quote about Jack:
Tenth Doctor: It's not easy, even just looking at you, Jack, 'cause you're wrong.
Jack: Thanks.
10: You are. I can't help it. I'm a Time Lord. It's instinct. It's in my guts. You're a fixed point in time and space. You're a fact. That's never meant to happen. Even the TARDIS reacted against you, tried to shake you off. Flew all the way to the end of the universe just to get rid of you.
Jack: So what you're saying is you're prejudiced?
10: I never thought of it like that.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:214723
who will win
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:215372
In The Bells of Saint John, why Clara Oswald refused to let the Eleventh Doctor inside in the Maitland house and talk to her?
- TheChampionOfTime
Because she didn't know him. Clara obviously learned about stranger danger after that one time a weird man with a bow tie approached her in the playground.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:215541
So there's at least three stories that I know of where the TARDIS goes into a repair mode described as "regeneration." The Eleventh Hour, Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth and Last of the Cybermen. If we don't have a page on this (which we might, it's sometimes hard to find the one page you're looking for in 60k) what would be the best title?
TARDIS regeneration perhaps? I can't find any indication that it is called this in The Eleventh Hour, but it is at least in the comic mentioned above.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:215551
in |(TV:Asylum of the daleks)| Rory thinking them to be (dalek) eggs and asked if the dalek wanted it, in|(TV:Dalek)| when the dalek self destructs the dalek spheres went out to form a force field to contain the self destruction .
- Diverse Awesomeness
should they be named dalek globes
- Diverse Awesomeness
I now know we don't name some things so maybe someday there might be an official term for the dalek round things 5/7/2017 Diverse Awesomeness ☎ 05:43, May 8, 2017 (UTC)
- Parasagitta
The Doctor Who Technical Manual describes them as sense globes, while in The Curse of Fatal Death, the Master famously describes them as 'Dalek bumps'. Neither is a valid source for our purposes though, so why not split the difference and call them Dalek globes?
- OttselSpy25
I just don't understand the need to even have a page on such a thing. If one has a lot to say, I suppose it's acceptable. But that's like having a page on Zygon warts.
- CzechOut
"Sense globes" is confirmed in the very earliest source, "Anatomy of the Dalek".
- CzechOut
However, other sources like "sensor globes". (PROSE: War of the Daleks, Remembrance of the Daleks). There are likely more, but my computer's glitchin' at the moment.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:217773
So a few years ago I read a quote from someone at DWM about how most of the people involved in Doctor Who Weekly were strongly against the Doctor taking on a companion, which they eventually had to with Sharon Davies. What I recall reading is that they a) didn't design Sharon to be a character who would last outside of Doctor Who and the Star Beast, b) purposefully wrote her out of most of the scenes in Doctor Who and the Dogs of Doom, c) aged her in the following story so that they wouldn't have to keep writing a bothersome teenager, and d) wrote her out just as quickly as they had allowed her to be written in. However, I recently tried and failed to hunt down some of these quotes to discuss on her page, only to find them hard to discover. Did I make these up? Or are they hidden in the back of some issue of Vworp! Vworp! somewhere?
As for her being written out of "most of the scenes in Dogs of Doom", I don't think you can credibly make that case. She's certainly in what I would call her fair share of panels, particularly given K9's presence makes it a two-companion story. And let's not forget that she prominently made the cover of DWM 30, during the run of Dogs.
It's an 8-part story, and she's in 6 of them. Yes, she's left behind in DWM 31, and doesn't appear in DWM 32 or 33, but this is also when the Daleks show up and the so-called "space truckers" in the story come to the fore. I've always read that as a move to give the Daleks and K9 their fair share of panels. In fact, it's a completely TV-based story-telling format. It's like those Robert Holmes-era six-parters that are really a four-parter and a two-parter smashed together.
So if there were some move to actively supress her appearance in Dogs, it doesn't appear jarringly obvious to me. As the Doctor senses things are about to become really dangerous, he tells his companion to stay behind in a relatively safe environment. Happens so much in Doctor Who that it's a trope.
Now, none of that is to say that she was a great character. The writers clearly didn't know what to do with her. Sharon is no Izzy, by any stretch of the imagination. But in Dogs is she treated poorly? Not really. No more poorly than any other companion in the JNT era on TV, certainly.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:223848
Is Jules Verne named as the author of Around the World in 80 Days in the short story Dateline to Deadline?
- Shambala108
Sorry for the very late reply, but I just now came across this post.
Yes, Jules Verne is named as the book's author in Dateline to Deadline. I don't put things in the References sections that aren't in the stories in question.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:224904
It is currently stated to be 28 June, which is correct, but I could not find its source in the DWU. The novel Human Nature only gives the month. I checked other sources too. It appears to the the RW bleed.
Since some other dates depend on it, I plan to downgrade the date to month only unless somebody can track the origins of the exact date.
- Shambala108
- Shambala108
From Ante Bellum:
Ace and the Doctor arrive in Constantinople on 8 June 1914. The Doctor says (at different times in the story) that Gavrilo Princip is planning an assassination, and that WWI will start in August.
Not super helpful, but at least it's progress.
- OncomingStorm12th
The Dalek Project does the job:
Saravejo, 28th June 1914. Is it possible? Is this really what happened? The war was triggered by the assassination of archduke of Franz Ferdinand and his wife. A single tiny event in Saravejo on 28th June 1914 that sent shockwaves round the world...
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:225808
Below I have posted images of an interview my colleague and I conducted with this actress at a convention in Northwich who was hailed as having featured in Sherlock and Doctor Who. I cannot recall the name of the woman nor make out what it says on the board that says her name. All I know is she played the alien in the poster (reportedly a Capaldi episode) and "Sherlock's mum" in Sherlock (I guess she was a body double? She's not credited on IMDb that I know of.) If you can help me identify her please do.
- 5.2.105.85
After googling for "Northwich Comic Con 2017" on google. I found their official Facebook page. I scrolled down and found that the actor's name is CJ Gutteridge. She appeared as a background alien in "Time Heist">
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:228508
It's been a while since i've had problems with the crossword, but here we go again with useless unsolvable clues. I doubt if any one can help, but do your best if you can.
24 across - Bill bought one for the Doctor : answer - R??
25 down - the original name for mr ratcliffe : answer - ???m?r
- 58.172.5.19
hi,
i've got 24 across - rug - from the episode The Pilot.
so i just need the answer to 25 down
thanks.
- 58.172.5.19
hi, i've got the answer to 25 down - Gummer.
thanks.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:230670
In the episode Rose, why did Rose Tyler ask the Ninth Doctor why he sounded like he was from the North?
- Borisashton
This question has already been asked and answered at Thread:205839.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:230715
In Father's Day, why was the Ninth Doctor not extremely angry at Rose Tyler for changing history by saving her dead father? Why didn't he raise his voice and flew into a rage when she didn't take it seriously and smirked a lot?
When he accused her planning it when he said the TARDIS was a time machine, she said "It wasn't some big plan. I just saw it happening and I thought I could stop it."
Why didn't he also accuse her of lying?
If he said "You told me that you just wanted to see him when he was still alive. And be with him when he was dying. So that he wouldn't die on his own", what would she say?
He accused her of planning and she denied it. He didn't accuse her of lying, disobeying and betrayal.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:238902
Is his name pronounced Tsim, Dzim, or Tuzim?
- Amorkuz
The hierarchy of sources for names is laid out in Thread:127706, as pointed out by Shambala108 at Talk:Tim Shaw. I'm afraid going by the ear, which is sometimes unavoidable, is not possible in this case, in view of the policy. If we're lucky, he will appear in some Titan comic story.
- 83.136.90.231
Regardless of this, "Tuzim" can be ruled out completely. How one could even get THAT out of his pronunciation is beyond my understanding.
- Scrooge MacDuck
I'm afraid you're rather missing the point, though, Amorkuz. Opdagon isn't asking how his name is spelled, he's asking how it's supposed to be pronounced (I would, at a guess, wager that Opdagon hasn't seen The Woman Who Fell To Earth yet, came across our page for T'zim Sha, and wants to know how you read it aloud).
By the way, is the thread you linked still… up to date? It's hard to keep track, but I understand that novelisations are no longer "secondary canon" these days, and much of the debate revolved around that fact…(EDIT: After reading more in-depth, I find that there is indeed a mention of the update in the last post, so this question is moot.)And finally, to answer the question… well, it's simple, isn't it? It's pronounced as close to 'Tim' as possible while still technically being T'zim. So basically "Tsim", with the "s" very faint.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:240881
The page K9 too much of a mess for me to get a certain answer on the issue of which K9s can be lumped together as one entity over several Doctor-style "regenerations", and which are just different robots of the same model.
For sure, K9 Mark 2 was a regeneration of K9 Mark I, and K9 Mark IV was K9 Mark III rebuilt and augmented by the Tenth Doctor.
But did the K9 Mark II built by the Fourth Doctor have the memories of Mark I, making him a sort of clone?
And did Mark III have the memories of either Mark I or Mark II? He seems to care a lot about the Doctor in School Reunion (and vice-versa) in a way that suggests to me that he did, considering that otherwise, we don't know of any Doctor/Mark III adventures before he was gifted to Sarah Jane.
(I suppose it's hopeless to try and figure out where the comic version owned by the Tenth Doctor fits into this, though if I had to speculate, I would propose that that K9 was a duplicate of Mark III, created from a backup he made in School Reunion while building Mark IV.)
- SarahJaneFan
I think K9 Mark III travelled with the Doctor and Adric in some annual stories. Or at least, the wiki considers the K9 in those stories to be K9 Mark III.
- CzechOut
Look, let's be honest. This all 100% speculation. I'm not aware of any sort of cloning process being discussed in any story.
Going from model to model could have happened any number of ways, as anyone versed in rescuing data from one hard drive to another will attest.
It's complicated, I think, by what the K9 series from Australia shows us, so the M2 "regeneration" is worth exploring, rather than just skipping over as a "done deal".
But did the K9 Mark II built by the Fourth Doctor have the memories of Mark I, making him a sort of clone?
I think the best answer is that there are a few points where the MI and MII may have had reasonably similar memories, but we'll probably never know if the MII actually started as a clone.
Nevertheless, the end of The Invasion of Time, where the MII's box is revealed is the point at which there's probably the highest chance of cloning.
One can imagine — though, again, it was never said — that the Doctor hooks the new model into the TARDIS console, downloads the OS, the settings, and the data from the Great Gallifreyan Cloud, and what emerges is basically just the MI at the point he leaves with Leela.
But we don't know any of that.
It's also possible that certain events in Gallifrey could be construed as MI and MII synching up.
So maybe at a much later date, the talks John Leeson has with himself in that audio series can be read as the two units catching up fully. For sure, they synch up over certain events happening in those audios. But I don't think we ever get anything as clear as, "Hey, let's 100% synch up now."
We've also gotta remember that K9 was always a kinda hobby project, a bespoke computer. Backup functionality could well have been rudimentary, since mass production was never a goal.
That's why I think the Mark I to Mark 2 "regeneration" for the AUS kids' show is instructive to look at. It's pretty bad what happens to the unit. Sure there's an upgrade that lets him fly. But it's shown to be a reboot and virtually complete memory wipe. As that series goes, there's a kind of implied (or maybe even directly-stated) "veil" which prevents the more modern unit from quite remembering what happened to the Mark I. Of course, this is because there are behind-the-scenes copyright issues standing in the way of the M2 remembering the BBC adventures of the MI, but it is at least fairly explicit that the M2 doesn't remember the MI's life very much. So I think we can definitely say the M2 doesn't know anything about the MII, and that it's entirely possible there's no particular mechanism for passing on memories after a reconstructive event.
Getting back to the MI/MII question, I think the implications of all this is that they're probably not exact clones. They could be, but on balance there seems, to me, more which argues against that. And for sure, there are rather more narrative points at which they must have unequal memories than there are ones where they're synched up.
I mean, by the time you get to State of Decay, the MII and MI are definitely no longer clones of each other.
So the answer generally is "no".
And did Mark III have the memories of either Mark I or Mark II? He seems to care a lot about the Doctor in School Reunion (and vice-versa) in a way that suggests to me that he did, considering that otherwise, we don't know of any Doctor/Mark III adventures before he was gifted to Sarah Jane.
Yeah, the implication of not only the Doctor Who Annual 1982 stories with Adric that SarahJaneFan mentioned, but also the very earliest Fourth Doctor comic stories in DWM, is that the Fourth Doctor is travelling with the Mark III.
That K9 must be making new memories distinct from the recently-departed MII, so, again, it's hard to see how they'd have the same memories. But could the MIII start with some of the memories of the MII? Sure, but I'm pretty sure it's undocumented.
If only there were a story where someone asked the MIII/IV about tennis, we might have a better grip on things ...
- Scrooge MacDuck
Thanks for the in-depth answer!
I think the use of the word "regeneration" to talk about Mark I —> Mark 2 is pretty significative of the authorial intent that it still be the K9, going from one face and personality to another rather like the Doctor. Mark 2's “veil” was the result of copyright constraints, and largely comparable to a robotic version of Eight's post-regeneration amnesia, I believe.
But concerning Mark III — yeah, yeah, I know, for us all media have equal weight, and I'm not disputing the validity of the comics. But I think it's important not to get carried away and remember that in most cases the production team of the RTD series really didn't try to sync up to prose and comics. I doubt they even knew about K9 Mark III being in those early Fourth Doctor comics. So that would make
And I never proposed that they would all be "synched up" — the same mind across all bodies; rather, I wondered if each new one got the memory of the others before beginning to diverge… making Mark II and Mark 2 kind of like the Eleventh Doctor vs. the Metacrisis Tenth, if you will.
The best way to get a firm answer would be to see if K9 Mark II ever refers to the actions of Mark I in the first person, or Mark III to the actions of Mark II.
Regardless, I think we really ought to clarify all this on the K9 page. The popular perception is that K9 is just one robot across several regenerations, no different from the TARDIS, and throwing in Mark 2 in the same list as Mark III as if they were equally distinct is just confusing matter. A sentence towards the beginning ("though some models of K9 were 'regenerations' of a previous model, whether all K9s could be considered a single continuous individual was heavily disputed"? something like that) could help.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:254620
So I recently read RTD's novelisation of Rose and noticed the many references to individuals introduced later in the series. These include Howard, Ru and Bau, Shareen, Bev, Suzie, Sarah Clark etc.
As I was going through I had been searching the names in the wiki to spot any references but then I read towards the end that Rose had received a text from a Keisha, who after a quick search I assumed to be Keisha Selby, a friend of Rose mentioned in PROSE: The Feast of the Drowned.
Other people who Rose received a text from that I haven't been able to pin down are Omar, Maxwell, Janice and Cole. As with Keisha, I thought these people could have been referenced in expanded media but had too minor a part that nobody bothered creating a page for them here?
Does anybody have any novels or comics from around the broadcast of series 1 to determine whether these people are purely inventions of the novelisation?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:254796
Was the Superman issue the Doctor was looking at near the beginning a real issue of DC's Superman comic? And if so, which one?
- Doug86
I believe it's Superman Vol. 2 #7 (July 1987).
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:255269
I think that these two stories from The Dalek Outer Space Book should be categorised as non-DWU stories since, like all but two of the stories published in Decalog 5: Wonders, they have no apparent connection to the Doctor Who universe. What do the rest of you think about this?
- Borisashton
I think this was discussed a while ago wasn't it? I'll see if I can find the thread.
- Borisashton
The relevant conversation is Thread:217351.
Because the book as a whole says that it's "based on the Dalek Chronicles", the stories technically are DWU.
Both stories are to remain valid and fully covered on the wiki.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256323
I recently remembered that sometime ago I proposed a name change for Red Dwarf special (TV story), but nothing has really come of this, no one else has added to the discussion on the talk page so I'm wondering if this comes under "you've made a good faith effort to have a conversation about a name change on a talk page, but 30 days have elapsed without any real resolution to the problem" as per Template:Rename?? MadeIndescribable ☎ 20:28, September 6, 2019 (UTC)
- Shambala108
I've been working my way through the rename proposals (have done about a hundred of the over 500). I've still got a long way to go, but I hope to get most of them done, either by renaming or by removing the tag. Unfortunately, I've also had to deal with inclusion debates/arguments, hurricane preparedness, and other real life tasks, so I haven't made as much progress as I'd like.
As for the specific case you've mentioned, I'm afraid that the page is just not of interest to many of the people who edit this wiki, which is probably why no one has added to the discussion. But I will get to it, in time.
- MadeIndescribable
Fair enough, just thought it couldn't hurt to ask.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256426
Why did the Doctor leave behind his grandaughter Susan on 22nd century Earth? (The Dalek Invasion of Earth)
- Scrooge MacDuck
The episode itself answers that fairly thoroughly, I think. The Doctor finds out that Susan has fallen in love with David Campbell, but also overhears her telling David that she cannot stay with him because she has to continue traveling with her grandfather so she can take care of him (the First Doctor is an old man of frail constitution and unreliable mental powers, do recall). So, knowing she won't let herself stay and be happy on her own, the Doctor removes the choice by leaving without her, leaving her to her guilt-free happiness.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256828
Why did Ian Chesterton and Barbara Wright leave the Doctor?
- Jack "BtR" Saxon
They never wanted to travel with him in the first place.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256923
How many times did the Doctor get slaped/hit in the face and why? And how did he react to it?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256925
Why did Vicki chose to stay behind in the 12th century BC?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256927
Why did Katarina and Sara Kingdom die?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256928
Why did Steven Taylor leave the Doctor and Dodo?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256929
Why did Dodo Chaplet chose to remain on Earth?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256930
Why did Ben Jackson and Polly leave the Doctor?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:256932
Why did Victoria Waterfield leave the Doctor and Jamie?
- Scrooge MacDuck
That information can easily be found at the Victoria Waterfield page. This goes for all the other similar questions you've been asking. This is not a Doctor Who Answers website, it's an encyclopedia.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:261488
Hi. Now that we have decided upon a new page for the UCLAN reconstruction of the 60s story, Mission to the Unknown, I'd like to ask what dab term we should use for this recreated story.
- Revanvolatrelundar
I placed that in the closing comment of the inclusion thread. We'll use Mission to the Unknown (webcast), as that was the format in which the story was broadcast.
- Danniesen
Right. Didn't see that. Thanks.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:268562
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:270732
Why did the Doctor leave behind his grandaughter Susan on 22nd century Earth?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:270733
How many times did the Doctor get slapped/hit across the face and why? How did he react?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:270734
Why did Ian Chesterton and Barbara Wright leave the Doctor?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:270735
Which companions did not travel with the Doctor full-time and why?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:270736
Why did Vicki leave the Doctor?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:270737
Why did Katarina and Sara Kingdom die?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:270738
Why did Steven Taylor leave the Doctor?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:270739
Why did Dodo Chaplet leave the Doctor?
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:281618
Im new to Docter Who Specifically Torchwood i got a question on this character https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Jasmine_Pierce
1.How Strong is she
2.What Kind of abilities does she have
3.is she immortal
4.Can She Die By Normal Means
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:282047
I’ve more or less accepted by this point that this site is never going to accept Dimensions in Time as a valid source, but whenever I ask about why that is, I’m usually told “look through the debate thread”.
Rather than being directed to that long thread of text walls again...could I just have a simple, bullet-pointed list of the main reasons?
I’m aware of least two of them, both with which I personally disagree (“EastEnders has been established as a fictional work within the DWU” and “the scene in 2013 contradicts EastEnders’ own canon”). What are the other reasons?
- Scrooge MacDuck
These really, really aren't the reasons. They were maybe floated around a long time ago, but per the last debates, the reasons are:
- It's technically a charity work, and it's not clear all the monsters were licensed, even if the use of the Doctor and companions certainly was, so it arguably fails Rule 2.
- Due to a weird legal quirk, no one actually owns the prints of Dimensions in Time: its only legal release was on that one day in 1993 on television. It is thus awkward to even add image files from the story to the site.
- Comments from John Nathan-Turner state that he viewed it as "outside the Doctor Who canon if there is such a thing", which, even if canon and DWU are different things, kinda sounds like it fails Rule 4.
So it probably fails Rule 4, but most importantly, it fails Rule 2. It was determined that we couldn't justify calling it a licensed Doctor Who story.
It is, in other words, essentially a rare case of a (basically-)unlicensed story which we still have a page about because it's so very important to Who’s history, much like the Audio Visuals.
- Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived
Yeah, Scrooge puts it best. (Although I'm curious, what were the licensing issues?)
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:282227
I was hoping somebody could shed some light on a particular reoccurring visual joke in the Doctor Whoah! strips.
For the former half of the strip’s run, the Eighth Doctor, whenever he showed up, was depicted as having cat-like features; cat ears, whiskers, and a tail. The gag was seemingly retired around the time of his Big Finish makeover.
Category:SOTO archive threads Category:Unanswered questions YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:282461
I cannot for the life of me figure out who the character standing in front of the Osgoods is meant to be. Can anyone help me out?
- Epsilon the Eternal
Shona McCullough maybe?
- WaltK
Epsilon the Eternal wrote: Shona McCullough maybe?
I doubt that for a number of reasons.
- SarahJaneFan
It’s Kate isn’t it?
- 86.11.164.109
Kate was the first possibility that crossed my mind.
It just really doesn’t look anything her like besides the hair colour.
- SarahJaneFan
It looks like her slicked back hair and coat from Power of Three to me.
- SteamMoose
Could it somehow be Ashildr ? She does have a similar haircut in The Girl Who Died. It's more likely Kate, though.
- Scrooge MacDuck
Yeah, really doesn't look like Kate to me.
…Could it be Christel Dee? She's got the right facial structure (those eyebrows!). This would be interesting "invalid continuity" between Daft Dimension and the in-universe parody skits in The Fan Show which establish Christel as an acquaintance of the Doctor in the DWU, which would be interesting.
- Epsilon the Eternal
I did think that! I just didn't think they'd include a seemingly out of universe person.
- Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived
It could be Christel Dee. If you type "Christel Dee" in google and go to her "2009-2019" tweet, there's a photo of a younger her that does bear a striking resemblance to this character.
Although that depends what her hair looked like when she started working for the Doctor Who brand. I've only ever seen her with dark brownish hair or gray dyed when she was working for the brand.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:282705
So, I've been checking a few pages and they mention that he's running in the 2020 election, but is that said on screen? I don't remember the story explicitly stating the date.
- SarahJaneFan
From Arachnids in the UK
ROBERTSON: Exactly. But you get things done. Now this could destroy me for 2020, so make it disappear.
GRAHAM: He's running for President in 2020.
- Jack "BtR" Saxon
Sounds pretty conclusive to me.
- Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived
Ah, I see. Thanks!
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:283427
While doing the pages for the Doctor Whoah! strips, I've been doing so primarily using my copy of Whoah! as a guide. When it comes to documenting what strips appeared in what issue, all I knew when going in was that the first strip was published in DWM 369 and, since the collection does not make any mention of what issue each strip was in, I had to use the first strip as a basis and effectively "guess" what issues had which strip.
But I knew from the beginning that a certain problem was going to arise from doing it this way: I am unable to account for any issues where the strip doesn't feature for whatever reason. And I believe I have finally reached that point...
The most recent strip that I have made a page for parodies the climax of The Eleventh Hour. I currently have the strip documented as being released in DWM 420 (which is reflected in the title), but I realised this does not line up with the issue's release date, which was a whole three days before TEH premiered (and I know the strip would never parody a scene that hasn't been released yet). The only possible explanation is that I have, indeed, become de-synched somewhere.
What do I do? Is anyone able to give me a proper issue-by-issue guide for the strips to work with?
- WaltK
It's also around this point where I'm beginning to question whether the Whoah! book is even presenting the strips in the correct order.
The very next strip in the book following the one I mentioned parodies the Series 5 teaser trailer (where the Doctor and Amy are lying on the grass and the ground opens up under them). I just find it strange that they'd publish a strip mocking the teaser trailer long after the actual series has already started. It's worth noting some strips are printed with a commentary on the opposite page, suggesting maybe Jamie Lenman purposefully swapped some strips around for layout's sake.
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:284117
Can anybody identify the "old friend" the Doctor calls on to help defeat the Cyberking on this previously-unpublished Doctor Whoah! strip?
Category:SOTO archive threads YYYYYY XXXXXX User:SOTO/Forum Test/The Reference Desk/Thread:286076
How anyone is supposed to be able to solve some of these absolutely ridiculous clues is beyond me, but anyone can somehow solve this clue I will be happy
18 across - he declared himself controller of the earth following his troops’ attack on Geneva
G - - n
- Borisashton
Gern from The Tenth Planet.
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